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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 123 tune dizzy
|Has anyone any experience of the 123 tune?|
My dizzy is quite well worn and I was contemplating a rebuild, then I saw the 123 and thought that would be the best way to go and now there is the 123 tune.
As I plan to modify my engine in the future (nothing too radical maybe a 1380 fast road with a kent 276 cam), what would be the best bet?
Does anyone know how easy it is to set the 123 tune with the best advance curve for the engine?
|That looks sooo much better than the original 123dizzy. I'd love to have one, but I fear the price. |
If I read the docs correctly, you can program two different curves and alter the vacuum advance point, and even program a boost retard (for those of us playing with forced induction). AND, it has a built in rev limiter. All in one neat little package.
I hope someone can sell one at a price that doesn't require a second mortgage on my home.
|here is a couple of link for the 123 tune.|
http://www.volksrepairs.nl/123%20ignition.htm .(you may have to copy/paste or remove the 20% from this link)
Not sure what currency the price tag is as it converts to US dollars or GBP....Is it a dutch currency or is it french
I saw a dissy (not the 123 tune) a couple months back that was really cool, you could creat your own curve with a with a few pushes of a button, no springs, wieghts, or ignition plate to adjust....but the cost was around $750-$1000...Ill have to look around and see If I can find it agian
|Its a euro symbol...|
€ 339 = $470 USA... Thats not half bad, considering all the advantages...plus you get 16 differant curves and can even time the cly individully like on F1 race cars
Thats a alot more dizzy for the buck then compared to the mallory unilite...and thats hitting around the $600 mark
|I wonder if the Uk windows XP is compatiable to the USA windows XP for the PC hook up?|
any thoughts there?
XP is XP nomather what country
And it is a original Dutch product!
And although the are only 50KM from my place they do not respond to anny for of contact!
I have bought 2 over the past year and would like to swap one for the 123 tune but there is no response.
The product is great the service from the manufacturar is not.
Here is from 123's website, about contacting them:
"Q: I have another question, how can I reach you? ---
A: Please ask your questions to one of our dealers, they can probably answer it. You can also visit us on one of the markets we visit and speak with us about your idea/questions. We want to spent our time designing good products, not answering a lot of e-mail. You can also post your question on the forum so that another user can answer it, do not expect an answer directly from us though. "
I do know that the guy who designed the 123 is a regular poster over at the www.minimania.com website, so you might try there to talk with him if you want.
and, I am pretty sure this is him:
and here is the link to 123's dealer network, maybe one of their Netherlands dealers will talk about it with you:
hope this helps!
The dealers are not helpfull if you can not prove you bought it from them (not that good with the archiving)
Apperantly i go to diffrent shows.
Might try the email.
Though i might be able to sell one and then buy a TUNE which might be easyer.
Even if i get a hold of them i think this is not a verry good example of customer service.
but again the product is great!
Just finished (today) setting up a 123 Tune on Keith's (who works with me/stepson) VW Split screen, We had previously used a 123VW dizzy. We increased bhp below 2500 and above 4000 rpm, in other words we extended the power curve really nicely at both ends. The programming was easy and we are pleased with the results. I was a little anxious of altering a dizzy by computer but I am impressed how easy it was even for someone who doesnt 'like' mapping. I dont think I would like to mess around on the road trying to set one up, but I am spoiled having my own rolling road I suppose.
Hi Onno, the problem I have with spending time helping when someone has bought from elsewhere is that I think whoever made the money should sort it. I am not paid by 123 to give support to customers of other dealers, do you think I am wrong in this? When I sell a 123 the customer has full back up based on our personal knowledge and use of the 123s and not just a sales person trying to make a sale with no clue as to what to do with them :)
no problems with that
only problems with the 123 company for not willing to give anny support
But again the product is great!
I have had no problems with 123, but to be honest I only tend to get in touch to order now and again and on the odd occasion send back 'dead' 123s, I have been impressed with Albert's attitude as the dizzies have been exchanged/ rebuilt with no arguments even when someone had obviously tried to disassemble one !!!
Our next step is to play with the vac advance on with the 123Tune on something like a B.
Mine will most likely be in before the end of the year.
First mapping will be done with a G-force sensor and the laptop on the road.
It will be one with vac advance.
When satisfied i wil go to a RR to fine tune.
I think it will be quite a challange!
I can not comment on their sevice to retailers and the product is great.
I can only say that i think it is said that they wil not even comunicate (or even give you the ability to comunicate with them as a lonely end user.
Swiftune respond to emails from me even though i have bought an sw5 cam 4 years ago through a different suplyer.
They just gave the info needed and thanked me for using their product.
In the end the could not make money if we would not buy their products.
So is it strange to expect some intrest?
|Norm Thanks for posting the 123 response... to Bad customer service..|
Im Now Vary certian, I do not want to have anything to do with this company...If its that bad just down the road, I cant even imagine 1/2 way around the world
There response is just appalling to me, I cant even imagine me telling one of my clients that same thing....it just takes the cake.
I understand that they are devoloping and manufacturing, but How can they possiable know if there is a design flaw... they wont at least for some time, There is just no way you can be profitable and stay in business if you dont care about your product in the hands of the people your making it for.
Good news, Its a great idea, Im sure pertronix, alden, mallory, ect ect will copy it and sell it and Mallory has a GREAT customer service department at centry iginition systems
was a serious contender to be a buyer 12 hours ago, But NOW I wont touch it with a 12 foot pole and anti radiation gloves and I will certianly advise other to steer clear of these loosers if thats how the view customer service.
Its one thing to have that as your company procedure, but its another to be so Blatent and publish the fact you wont provide customer service after the sale.
Un-real...obviously there ivey leauge educated (WORTH-LESS)
Don't be too quick to condemn. I am not sure what the problem ispeople seem to reckon they have. As I have said, any problems and I just send the 123s back and they come back mended or replaced foc no quibbles. I do not quite see why folk need to ask direct questions. The people I know who have required special curves either vac advance or 'mechanical' have had the 123s altered and sent to them, this is not just trade customers. Albert supplies a dizzy which we feel is great. They come with 16 curves which you can measure yourself and plot. With the advent of the tune version the process is further removed from Albert....stick it in and go for it. I cannot see how Albert can guess which curves to use etc? The info seems very complete to us, just need to learn how to do it all.
Keith's is a vac advance but we never used it, we run quite high advances and are on the limit of detonation around 2500-3500 rpm. Cruise is 4-4500 and we are around 30 degrees here and dont want any extra vac. Will find out vac tuning on a B which will benefit at cruise rpms. It took about 3 hours to do Keith's on the rolling road.
Had you bought the 123 from us and it was unused still in original package I would take it back and charge the difference for another product even if it was a cylinder head from us :)
I have to disagree, under those conditions you wuld be the only person Id purchase this from, other wise its a roll of the dice, Id imgine most of 123 vendors are just that "vendors" they buy 100 at a time and sell them how ever they can,,,if asked about a problem they read the back of the box for the answer, knowing which vendor has any knowledge and which is guy is just buying and selling is a gamble
This has Huge red flags to me, maybe a good product, but if there is a software glitch, a sensor issue, a wiring issue with my aftermarket painless wiring harness... and god knows a 1000 other things that POP up in the ""REAL WORLD"" and you got to rely on some guy that buys a 100 at a time to read the packaging for the answer and im 8000 miles on the other side of the planet... and there is no way to make contact with the company and there policy is we dont care about our product, we just want your $500, Please dont bother us, our incompeteance is your Problem to solve...
"Yeah" whats the saying, A fool and his money....
|here is a great example of what im talking about|
about a year ago, i purchased from frontline the infamous midget front suspension kit, and had it shiiped back to my home in good ol Missouri USA, when I got the packeage the instruction sheet was badly mangled from the copy machine... i emailed a nice note back to FL saying the instruction had been eatten and could not be read... 8 hours later I got a return email with the instruction printed out for me as an attachement
the idea that if the same thing happened with the 123 tune, and I had no instructions to work from, I GAMBLED wrong and purchased thur a just buy and sell type vendor... and I cant contact the company, and now there Incompetace is now my problem, and I have to GUESS at setting up the 123 tun dissy... and there 8000 miles away...
Yeah, unless your purchasing from a known hands on vendor that will gladly spend the tome with you doing the companys customer service work for them... Id avoid this company like the plague... to many things can and apperantly do go wrong
Bottom line ....
if 123 is so OVER-WHELMED from being contacted by people that purchased there stuff and cant get it to work correctly that they can no longer take the time to help the poor people that just phoned up $500 for there defective, poorly written insrtuctions, or not applicable to the real world issues, ect ect.
And they actully state that on the website... give me your money, but dont you dare contact us about our problems with our stuff ... figure it out on your own.
That pretty much says it all
If they are going to have such a policy, they really need to only sell to vendors who have real world hands on experiance and can didicate countless hours if need be to each person
Pertronix has an 800 tech number, and a website, and email if you cant figure out how to hook up the red and black wire on there points replacement chip, and they actually talk to there customers...
The product is great!
I will sell one of my 123's personaly and buy a 123 tune
That is how mutch i like the product and if you want a new distributor i will recomend 123!
just keep me up to date on the 7 port work then i can start saving up and we can do business ;)
Have a look at the 123 forum for yourself, also look at the backup downloads available in pdf form.Instructions are easy to follow. Download the 123tune programme and have a play. The wiring is simple too. I promise you this is so as we hate wiring!!!!! I will also say that I would personally give you as much support as I could if you bought a 123, I am sure that Onno would do the same.There are no sensors involved just wiring, if it packs up you send it back for repair replacement.
I will keep you informed. At present we are finishing the head for our friend to fit on his Mini. We are running a 1.401" inlet and a 1.156 ex valve. Flow is quite a lot more than the best we have ever had with a CI head and 1.401" valve. I get the feeling this is going to be a torque and bhp monster ( at a price though!)
|its hard to beat the mini cooper valve size...Im running the same size..|
definatly looking forward to the write up on that head BTW
The head looks pretty sexy sat on the bench :)
|I've had my 123 for a year now and think it's terrific.|
Set up is easy. you can work out which curves to work with from the original lucas dizzy stats. Any problems/comments are quickly answered from the 123 website forum.
My only complaint is why position the adjuster for the curves where you can't get at it?? The distributor has to be removed to adjust so I have a "safe" rather than perfect curve "just in case"
|The distributors are mighty hot to remove too aren't they? We positioned the 123Tune craefully so we could plug the laptop into it...at least Albert has put that in a place we can get at it :)|
|I agree with everything R Fowler has said.|
I bought mine from Peter and I'm delighted with it (and him).
I will get the Frogeye up there one day for Peter to set it up properly but I'm certainly not complaining about how well it works as is.
I agree with the daftness of having to take the thing off to adjust it, but then I wouldn't have a clue how to build or design something like that so I have no idea about the constraints involved in its manufacture.
|Onno. Peter. The product may be great and I'm sure that if I bought one from you Peter, you would provide good backup as your reputation is second to none. One only has to read this BBS to know that you run a reputable company, but I consider the response from the 123 manufacturer that Norm pointed out to be more than dismissive, it's downright arrogant. Unfortunately, it seems to be, increasingly,that customer sevice is becoming a dirty word and I think Prop is talking alot of sense when he says that he would be wary of dealing with the 123 people. There are other products on the market are there not?|
Is there anny unit where you can completly programa 2 seperate ignition curves switchable from inside the car.
That needs nothing other than a switch of dissy!
nop there is non.
The product is great the sevice from manufacturar to outlet is good (see PB's testimony)
It is just the end user factory connection that can not be made.
A bit strange and irritating in a time of direct contact but no reason not to buy a good product.
I thought the original 123 was a simple gimmick and not of much use to serious tuning where the fully programmable ignition systems gave the tuner all the benefits he would require.
However the 123 tune I think is if I understand it correctly a nice neat easy to install fully programmable unit. As such I would have prefered to fit it rather than my trigger system.
I assume I am right am I? it is fully programmable isn't it?
|Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo|
|That is what I understand. The manual refers to adjusting the curves by "dragging" points on the graph.|
You make My point exacty... sometimes I take the scenic approach to make a point
I love the concept of the 123 tune, and obviouly its got a good following, and a history of being well made.
But Id ONLY Buy the 123 tune thur Peter burguss and absolutle No one else, not ebay, not amazon, or jegs ect ect. what ever you spend extra with Peter burguss will be money well spent for his help if its ever needed. IMHO On something a s serious as dissy curves you do NOT want to be trolling thur 38 differant forums trying to find someone that has had the same issue and how they fixed it. and then take a wild gamble that the guy ( Like Me ) knows what the heck he is talking about
Thats my argument in a nut shell... Otherwise you will be on your own for all intense and purposes, and unless you have alot of experiance with ignition systems, dissys, curves, computer enginerring, and an heavey Micro electronics back ground, Then that shark infested water is going to get real deep, real dark and real cold fast...hope you can learn fast. Because if you dont have Peter Burguss expertize or someone of equal talent on your side after the sale, and the 123 company only cares about your money and you got to rely on a web forum with others in the same boat, to fix your situation that may not even be the result of a bad dissy, just a computer virus that got uploaded into the elctronics of the dissy...Then Its my opinion
Your probably screwed.
|If the 123tune truly lives up to its name.|
I really belive it wont be long before Mallory, pertonnix, alden, MSD, ect ect. wont copy this new dissy and make one of there own
what this dissy is capable is way to ground breaking for others not to follow, 123 tune really is reinventing the wheel with this dissy...
Its similar to getting rid of the wooden spokes and iron hub and inventing the Minilite wheel out of ally aluminum
Face it, If 123 cant afford the cost of a customer service rep... And Im talking some guy named Bob living in india but telling everyone he talks to on the phone he lives in des moins Iowa working for 25 cents an hour, there is no way 123 will be able to afford a decent copyright/patant lawyer and a long protracted court case battle to protect there onwership rights of there new 123 tune dissy. id say its safe to say this New 123tune dissy concept easily belongs to the rest of the dissy company Masses to devolop and sell as they please un-hindered by legalities
|Sorry ... I spoke way to soon,|
Read it and weep guys!
BTW... Mallory does have an exceptional customer service dept. just incase thats an Important benifit that you cant find with other UN-NAMED dissy companies ...LOL
In all fairness, The E-fire Dissy has NOT been released yet for the BMC A-series- 1275, But id say its on the way easily with in the next 12 months.
From the Mallory website...
E-FIRE DISTRIBUTOR-FORD W/COMP 9000
Ford V8 351W with COMP 9000 Cap. Unlike some competitors, Mallory's E-Fire Distributor Series do not require an external ignition box. Full electronic timing control - both RPM and vacuum based. There are 7 preprogrammed custom advance curves or design your own using free windows-based software. The vacuum advance comes preprogrammed for high performance use or it can be custom curved using the design software included. The 3 BAR Map Sensor allows for fully adjustable boost proportional retard and can handle up to 30 pounds of boost. Single stage rev limiting, easy to adjust using the included software - no chips required. The free windows-based software runs on any laptop or PC, whether the distributor is in the engine or not. All Wiring Harnesses are included and feature weatherproof terminals for maximum dependability. All CNC-machined billet construction to ensure maximum precision. Interchangeable Distributor Cap feature allows for 2 popular cap styles to be used to best suit the application and available clearance.
|OMG... Check Out the NEW MSD called the "4-Cylinder Programmable Digital 7-Plus"... they said heck with the dissy...lets do something completly insane... This is the direction Im going... Freaken WNARLY!!|
|OH NUTS!!!... The MSD digital 7 plus is only for drag racing, Ill bet they got one for the street, they have to, that way to radical.|
Where the heck did all this new tech come from, I was just looking thur this ignition stuff about 7 months ago, and I sure as heck never saw any of this cool new stuff...
Its freaken christmas at my house... No sleep Tonight... sorry but the engine completion is ON - HOLD, its going to be a LLLOOoonnnggg Night and day tomarrow without any sleep....pure horse power porn is what im into tonight.
Whoever is working at google tonight, better have some strong coffee, cause we are going to be best buds tonight.
I must take you to task slightly, you are jumping to a conclusion based on a few paragraphs. In the VeeDub world there seems to be nothing but praise. Have you looked at the 123 site and forum. You must also remember you are dealing with translations from one language to another....je vous demand means I ask of you not I demand from you! Maybe the dealers might speak the same language as you? From what I understand folks are happy with the forum on 123. I have contacted Albert on a dozen occasions and not had problems. These dizzies are specialist items to be honest not ideal for quick buck makers on ebay. Because the seller should be providing backup. As far as we are concerned the 123 is a complete package and the experience we have fitting, tuning and running these things helps us help you. Maybe the question should be addressed at those selling rather than attack the factory?
I agree with you Prop about buying a dizzy where you will get full support. I have had a lot of people buy cheap 123s on ebay and amazon etc etc etc. Instead of people checking the 123 pdf downloads they are bone idle and want soemone to 'do it all for them'. Now I get a fair few of these and whilst I am polite I tend to just tell em to download pdf or go to a rolling road and get it done. It is frequent enough to irrtate me. Can you imagine what it must be like at 123? I dont suppose Mr Ford likes folks ringing up directly about settings for an old car?
The 123Tune is just drag and drop, we were gobsmacked at how easy it is to change the curve ....getting the curve right for a given car is another matter :)
We are playing with the dyno today to see the 'best' way to get each point at its best rather than doing runs all the time.
|Peter. I didn't for one moment wish to imply that the dizzy is no good, just that I thought that the attitude of the maker was high handed. I was trying to point out that proper customer service seems to be a thing of the past in some quarters. You wouldn't believe the hassle I had when the recycling bin "operatives" damaged my garden wall. I gave up in the end as it was too stressful to pursue the matter, which of course was exactly what they wanted and in fact I'm sure it was engineered that way. |
Once again, no criticism of the product was intended, in fact I'd love one, so you will probably be hearing from me soon as I only live in Stockport.
funnily enough our neighbours 4 doors down had no hassle when their wall was flattened, we were amazed when it was repaired within 3 days!
Re 123 I was trying to say that I do not see why people need to contact Albert/Albertronics direct as the website contains so much info and I am told the forum is most helpful.
If you are lucky the pound will recover against the euro and the 123s will become better priced.
This thread was discussed between 06/10/2010 and 09/10/2010
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.