Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 1275 New water pump advisory.
|I just bought and fitted a new water pump to the 1275 midget.|
Do you remember last year, someone (Greg in Australia maybe?) found that the bottom hose spout on the w/pump was angled down slightly? Well anyway, that's what I found with the new pump, when compared to the Leyland original I took off.
The consequence, is that the bypass hose spout on the w/pump, sits further away from the head spout. Thus the standard length concertina bypass hose is too short, and has to be stretched to fit. Bad idea!!!
I'm told there is only one supplier(manufacturer) of these water pumps now, so unless getting NOS, this is what you will get whoever you order it from.
So be advised.
I'm going to cut a bit of heater hose and use that instead.
There is a 'bypass hose adaptor' 12A2075 that fits in the head. Longer than standard 'spout' but you would probably have to take the head off to fit it. Available from Minispares.
There is a meet at the Angel this Sunday if you have nothing on.
|<<There is a meet at the Angel this Sunday if you have nothing on>>|
|They sell heater hose by the foot...thats what I do, chunk off about 4 inches|
|Prop and the Blackhole Midget|
|oh my, you don't want to use a concertina hose, they don't last as long as a length of 1/2" heater hose|
Like Prop said
|Never use a concertina hose except for a roadside repair, they are made in two parts are will fail eventually.|
It should be a piece of straight hose.
Always replace the hose when the head is off.
|I've been using a concertina hose on my Sprite for yonks, and it hasn't failed yet. I keep one as a spare, as they are so easy to change.|
The one that came off the Midget, was a concetina too, and that showed no signs of leaking either.
But be that as it may, if the w/pumps are set at such an angle as to render the concertinas useless, then that's then end of using them ever.
Hi Alan. Yup I'm aware of the extension, and almost contemplated getting one. But I'll use a length of hose now.
Whilst talking about those longer spouts, is there a special tool/socket to remove the spout from the head? I tried to take one out of my spare standard head, and it won't move too easily. Unscrewing them seems to be a bit of a bastard. Not a machine shop job is is?
The fitting has a habit of rusting into the head. There is normally a slot in the end of it which can be used to remove and refit, although this isn't much help if it's seized. The walls also become thinner with age.
I have in the past managed to remove one by tapping it around with a punch. I have also welded a bolt to the stub and unscrewed it that way.
BTW my water pump had the pipe at the correct angle ;o)
|Thanks Dave. I'll email you.|
Yup there's a slot, and the spout isn't too rusted by the look of it. But it won't budge.
Guess I'll have to try heat and more effort. lol.
Just fitted a new head to my Frogeye and a Masc member, who owns a machine shop, and has the tool, fitted it for me when he did other work on the head.
|I would check for a correctly fitting pump with other retail suppliers|
4 years ago when I was looking for a new pump I considered a 'sports' pump that were more expensive - are these no longer available?
when I told MGOC Spares I was considering buying a sports pump because the ones they sold were so inexpensive I was told by a trusted source there that the pumps they sold where well made despite the low price and that has proved to be the case so far
|I bought a pump for an MG Metro about 3 years ago. It has a deeper, cast impellor (better circulation)and no by-pass. I'd get rid of the by-pass by blanking it off if I was you as it serves no purpose (provided you drill a small hole in the thermostat) and use a non by-pass pump that fits.|
|The pump I bought is well made (even if slanted), and has the deeper cast impeller. And to repeat, I'm told that there is only one manufacturer supplying all the usual outlets, Moss, sussex, mini-spares etc.|
I haven't quite understood the "serves no purpose" type of arguments regarding the bi-pass, each time they are made; -- Even if a small hole is drilled in the thermostat. Many thermostats come with a small hole in them anyway. I've got one. Why was the bi-pass introduced if it can be done away with?
How does drilling a small hole, take the place of the much larger hole via the bi-pass?
Is that a local(kent) MASC member Alan? How far from T/wells. I need to get a crank ground in the summer, and possibly some hardened exhaust inserts.
Surrey Masc Member Col'Carpenter at Southern Rebore Services at Rowfant, Surrey.
He has a website if you Google Southern Rebore.
Runs a nice injected & turbo'd Spridget.
|Thanks Alan. I've already got that place in mind, so it's good to know he's recommended, and a Spridget runner himself.|
|well made to me means it also fits correctly|
have you confirmed what you've been told and anyway does that mean that no one has other stock, perhaps those 'sports' ones
you got yours and have accepted it so it's the end of the story for you
it doesn't matter to me (at the moment) but for others I hope you've been told wrong or that correctly fitting pumps are commissioned
|Ive seen the spout removed 2 differant ways...|
1. Weld a nut to the spout....the easist way if your a pro
2.use a tight fitting metal piece of pipe over the outside of the spout and taper chisel made out of hex shaped rod forced down into the slots and a breaker/cheater bar rachet on the end of the taper chisel
And lots of PB baster pre soaking before you tug
|Prop and the Blackhole Midget|
|Nigel. In principle I agree with you. They should match the original spec.|
But it does fit the engine block correctly, and the casting is good and clean. It's the design that's been changed, -- inadvertently I would imagine, -- that causes the output spout to slope down slightly. It's not a deal breaker, but annoying when you expect to use a standard length bi-pass hose. And it could be bloody inconvenient if you have to replace the hose at the side of the road, since to make the conertina "emergency" hose fit, you have to strectch it, which tends to pull it off one end or the other.
True, I've accepted this pump, as the solution wasn't that hard to come up with. I thought a heads-up on here would forewarn others though.
I haven't rung around to check this time, but the last time I was told that the same maker was supplying all the usual suspects with a certain part, it was true. So I have no reason to doubt this. But feel free to check if you like. I bought the w/pump from Sussex.
I hope I was misinformed too, but like so many of our spares these days, there are a limited of number of players in the game now. It's a dwindling market, and as you and others have pointed out, the cheapest supplier wins the deal, rather then the highest quality/originality, because many/most people want "cheaper" parts. I suspect if our Spridgets were all worth upwards of £20k average price, we'd all be willing to shell out more for our cars. But it is what it is. Cheap cars, demand inexpensive spares it seems.
As for not mattering to you at the moment, sadly, if you keep your Midget, it will one day, since w/pumps don't tend to last as long as the engine does.
I might try those methods Prop.
But meanwhile, can someone give me chapter and verse, on they pros and cons of doing away with the bi-pass?
|I abandoned the by pass years ago when the head was modified and ported by Slark and they welded up the 'spout'. Their main argument was it reduces the risk of the by pass failing and leaking everywhere. I don't use a thermostat but was told if I did was to ensure there was a small hole in it in case it seized up shut and caused localised overheating.|
|if the bypass doesn't line up then it doesn't fit properly|
I'd guess that you'd got it from your favoured supplier who suppliers what others supply and can tell you from personal experience that that can include parts that don't fit properly - as I've said before all the retail parts suppliers I've dealt with sell parts that aren't always good
quite rightly you'd be the first to ask about what collaboration there was for this warning if anyone else had posted
it could all well be true and it was good of you to put the warning up but it's not confirmed - saying that it was correct last time doesn't mean that it's correct this time just gives it more credence
I've checked up and followed up on enough parts I'm sick of it - I just suggested that others should >>check for a correctly fitting pump with other retail suppliers<< that sounds a good idea to me rather than accepting a pump that doesn't fit fully but it's up to the person buying the pump if they want to do that - you and I accept the pumps we have
|Yes Nigel. As you say, it doesn't fit properly. Happy now?|
I can't quite understand your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. Please repeat them in a more easily understood form. It appears that you are suggesting that I am collaborating with my favoured supplier in some way. Surely you don't mean that? Do you?
Correct, I have no concrete proof that Sussex were telling me the truth. Do you think they are lying to me then?
OK chaps. Please ignore my advisory about water pumps. Nigel has spoken. Anything he says must be right ;).
|PS. Cheers Bob.|
|Anything he says must be correct? Not so Lawrence! Always opinionated but often incorrect.|
|So true Alan. :).|
|as always you've twisted my words and it's been a waste of my time dealing with you - so let's give it a rest|
2nd and 3rd paragraphs stand as they are (if read without bias)
for the record I did not say or suggest that you was being lied to by anyone
I too agree with Alan's statement - that's the difference between us I know I'm often wrong and am willing to admit it to others and myself
|Is that the difference between you and Lawrence or another incorrect opinion twixt you and me?|
|No Nigel. Your words aren't clear enough. That's why I asked you to clarify them. Precisely so that I don't misunderstand them, and "twist" them, as you put it.|
I'm pleased to hear that you don't think I was lied to.
Since they've been in the business a long time, I think it's reasonable to assume that Sussex know what they are talking about, if they tell me that the other usual parts suppliers, are supplying the same w/pump that they are supplying. It seems quite credible to me, and thus I have no need to confirm it.
the post was for Lawrence so is not an >>incorrect opinion twixt you and me<<
but if you're just itching to say something to or about >>he<< then please do so as I agreed with your previous remark and may well again, if not ...
... then as you know everyone is entitled to Nigel's opinion ;)
|to get back to the question of Why the bypass?|
Start with Why the thermostat? - to speed up warm-up time to improve the comfort and safety of normal roadgoing users. However this can lead to hotspots occurring in the head, so the bypass was designed in to allow fast warm-up yet keep a bit of circulation and save damaging the head or valves. Race engines are run without thermostat or bypass, and need warming up in the paddock in winter, if you go on track cold they can stay cold and you never get to the optimum operating temp for power. I think. Hopefully Pete or Chris or Daniel et al can elaborate or correct me.
|Just for the record Nigel! |
Im often confused by the meaning of your many statements.... but I also think you are a really Good guy inspite of your inability to make yourself clearly understood!
I wish someone could put an owners handbook together to have you properly serviced. It seems you may have gone father than the recommended intervals for Normal maintenance!
Just making in observation.... Please put more wieght on the good guy part!
Ha ha ha!
|to be fair Steven you use American English, I don't|
if that's not a wise open feed line I don't know what is
sorry Steven I should have put a smilie so that you knew I meant it with humour, the good humour, of the funny ha, ha slant
|Careful Steven, Nigel might turn on you next :).|
Cheers David, for explaining the purpose of keeping my bypass open ;). Sounds like heart surgery that, or a warrant to have a fluid sexual orientation. LOL.
|it's a very old trick for a culprit to pretend to be the victim or simply deny or turn the facts|
"You ain't seen me: right!"
"Careful Steven, Nigel might turn on you next :)."
Im very familiar with Nigels turning of the worm antics...but with all of his many behavior patterns and sometimes vague and spotty postings....
I do get a sence that he is a man of fair play and does strive to help others and learn.
Manuals being his favorite topic!
Its a bit Irking that he is so rabid about making sure youve read it....
but to be fair he is right in those cases...
In spite of this, I often pretend to offer them up as burnt offerings...to the MG gods!
He has saved my bacon a many times on this site and made me feel better about posting here on the bbs!
Many times when I felt mistreated stating my opinion here on the bbs he has said a cheering word that made a difference.
I have a younger brother that acts just like Nigel. I never know what to expect when he speaks either.
I also do feel a loyalty to Nigel, as he is a great guy IMHO but I do expect anything in the matter of conversation..
He adds an unexpected flaver to this very spicy dish...the bbs!
Ha ha ha...:-)
|Perhaps then Steven, you can explain Nigel's most recent rabid posting? I haven't the faintest idea what he's on about. Is that a "selfie" I wonder? He's ugly sod anyway. :).|
Nigel, who are you calling a culprit, and precisely what are you accusing that person of?
This began as a simple advisory, to anyone who might be interested, that I bought a water pump on which the bypass hose spout was at a lower level than on the original spec pumps. And that I was told that all the usual suppliers were now supplying the same pump.
How anyone in their right mind, with even a modicum of intelligence, could construe that to be collaborative, or anything other than what it is, -- "a heads up", is completely beyond my comprehension.
Of course though, it's quite clear that there are some 'very' stupid people on here, who can misconstrue anything, aren't there Nigel!
Nigels latest rabidity has me at a loss....
I have nothing to offer on this! I am in this case like the others baffled by Nigelian logic!
|Ha ha Steven. :).|
Nigela like, yes. Logical, no. lol.
Is that a "selfie"! Ha ha ha...
Nigel posted a vidio of that guy to me one time.
I didnt recognize him but assumed he was a known british comedian...
Something called "THE FAST SHOW"
It didnt translate to this side of the pond that I know of.
I dont understand the guys stick....but I probably would if I were more familiar with the show!
I cant make heads or tails of this vid....I dont think its a cultural difference, do you?
I have asked Nigel specifically to post some form of a picture so he wouldnt be a faceless entity....
But he is camera shy...and its his rite should he see fit to deny us.
Ha ha ha!
|Ive often thought a day spent with Nigel would go exactly like this!|
|I don't watch the fast show, so I couldn't tell you.|
That last comment is funny Steven. --- "Ive often thought a day spent with Nigel would go exactly like this!"
When I followed the link you posted to the vid, I got the following graphic.
And that's exactly how I imagine, even a minute spent with Nigel might be. LOLOLOLOL.
|the photo is not from any show it's a still from a CCTV system fitted in a motor factor's shop showing a customer for bearings acting very shiftily before snatching up his purchase and stressing the secrecy of his visit|
|such a charming chap our Nige, to bear a grudge all this time...|
Any chance you can ask SHMBO....if it would be all right to put your favorite pet American up for the weekend?
We could do an exchange program to create a better harmony here on the BBS!
I think it would work out just fine like this vid!
Dont get cranky old man, keep your mind open and if you have to put your foot down with the old girl just tell her its for the betterment of man kind,Damnit!
Weekend at Nigees! No smile as it should be on your face with this outragousness!
|Oh the Pet American would be Prop of course....|
I hope that was clearly understood in my last communication!
I just have to figuire a way to lure him in to my home made catapult and aim it for Heathrow airport using airport transfers sevenoaks with Airpirt Transfers Tonbridge!
|Leaving aside all of the bickering on this thread, my engine has an MG Metro cylinder head which has no provision for a bypass. Whatever the original intent it would seem that BL felt there was no need for a bypass on later model A-Series. Clearly given my choice of head I have no option but to do without the bypass - whether this leads to hot spots or otherwise I can't say but I've run without for years with no obvious problems - but if you have a bypass then I doubt it does any harm apart from the risk f the bypass hose failing.|
The Metro cooling system was plumbed differently.
There was an additional casting between the head and the thermostat housing which was plumbed to the heater, I believe, and performed the by-pass function.
|Thanks for that Chris, Dave. I wondered about the later A engines without the bypass. I've never had a problem with the bypass myself, until I bought the recent pump. But as I said, that's not a deal bresker if you know in advance that you need a slightly longer hose, and don't use the concertina anymore.|
As for the bickering on this thread. Well that come's from the buffoon with an obsession about other people's purchases. He's clearly gutted he didn't get the bearings himself. lol. One can only wonder about the amount of sleep he's losing. He obviously thinks about it all the time. It's eating away at him, and he can't stop it. I love it. :). Makes you wonder what he hopes to achieve, by constantly raising the subject. From my own perspective, I can say that all he's managed to achieve so far, is to ammuse me, and confirm to me that he a prize fool. :).
So in retrospect. Perhaps a little time spent in Nigel's company, might result in my having cracked ribs. It would happen because I simply couldn't stop laughing "AT" him. LOLOLOL.
|Old BMC original pump on top, new pump from Sussex below.|
On the new pump, there's a very slight difference in the angle of the bottom hose spout, which lowers the by-pass hose spout, away from the head. It makes the standard length concertina hose about 5/16" to 3/8" too short. The only way to use the concertina with this pump is to stretch it, which doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
So if as I've been told, these are the pumps most suppliers are selling, and you buy one, be ready with a length of 1/2" rubber heater hose instead.
Apart from that, the pump is perfectly ok :).
|IRC there is a later bypass adaptor that is longer than the original available from Mini Spares. I think it was made longer to enable the easy replacement of the hose, however it may be longer due to the slight difference in the aftermarket water pumps.|
|Yup Alan mentioned that earlier Peter. However getting the old bypass adapter out of the head isn't so easy, especially if the head's still on the car. I didn't have much luck with the head off the car.|
When I strip the Sprite engine this year for a rebuild I'm going to fit one of those longer adapters though, for just the reason you mention, making it easier to fit the hose.
Here's a thought. Is the singular of hose, Ho? ;) lol.
|Whoops, I should have read the whole of the thread.........|
|In my first post in this thread, I asked --- "Do you remember last year, someone (Greg in Australia maybe?) --- "|
I knew I didn't imagine it. I just got the year wrong.
It was in October 2011. Technical section. "Why is my bypass hose too short?" Greg H, Tas, Australia.
Here's a picture of his water pump. Same as mine, with the same result. The standard bypass hose is rendered too short.
I'm amazed that we'd all forgotten the discussion that ensued. Nigel especially, since he said the pump looks correct, ----- "to me your pump 'looks' correct and all pumps seem to be with large outlet horizontally level, mine on my í73 car seems that way -- "
Greg's pump was supplied by MGOC. So that confirms that more than one supplier is selling this "altered" design. Maybe they're "collaborating", in some kind of conspiricy to eliminate the use of concertina bypass hoses. LOL.
Whatever. It's corroboration that if you buy a new stock, new water pump, you'll likely end up with a short hose. So be prepared boys and girls. :).
|Water pump replacement, a very easy job on a midget.|
Ill have to have a look as I just changed mine and I know they werent the same but I got it all together with no real problems.
I did see there was a different angle on the water pump casting.
I just Put a little grease on both ends of the accordian hose and it all went as planned.
Do they make rebuild kits you can purchase to rebuild them yourself?
|So you "stretched" your concertina hose Steven?. I don't mind using the concertina hose, but only in compression. I can see potential for a stretched one to come off, one end or the other.|
They used to do rebuild parts, but now the flange is press fit on the shaft, and unless you can remove it, you can't get to the bearing or seal.
However, there is a certain gentleman on here, that has just such a means, and is contemplating that very thing. I wonder if he'll reveal himself, and his means? :).
|I hadn't been following this thread. I saw Lawrence's original "Heads Up" message about his slanty-top pump and thought yes, we all know about those from the previous lengthy discussion of the Australian one. So nothing to learn, and nothing to contribute. I dipped into the topic once but and saw it had degenerated into another "Nigel Speciality" one so gave it a miss.|
So somewhat surprised to see Lawrence has only just confirmed his recollection of Greg's similar pump. No big deal. Use a longer bit of heater hose. Back to sleep.
|I stumbled across Greg's thread again, looking for something else Guy. I was beginning to think I'd imagined it, because nobody else seemed to have heard of it. And of course Nigel suggested that I was wrong to notify people without evidence to back up the claim. In fact, reading it again, it seemed that Greg's pump was indeed a one off, which as it transpires, it's not.|
So that's why I thought I'd mention Gregs pump. Seemed like a good idea, if only to arouse some from their slumbers. LOL.
|I remembered the thread from Greg|
I put it then it 'looks' and not looks meaning the pump part looks ok but not the fixing casting as the main outlet is not fixed horizontal
I didnít remember the pump was from MGOC but clearly remember saying the pump wasnít right as I think that upset Greg
as can clearly been seen in that photo the bypass on the pump now points at an angle and doesn't fully line up with the bypass on the head
a longer concertina hose might disguise the offset between the two whereas a straight hose would show slight kinking
as far as function goes it doesnít matter and the pump fits Ėbut not properly
looking at the three pumps together there is a difference in the raised channel with the one marked as original having a lot less
I just put to check with other suppliers - my post is here to see - I then just put the same things that Lawrence would if someone else had fitted this pump but he took exception to me saying I'd also had parts from his favoured supplier that didn't fit properly (as I have with other suppliers)
it was after this the line formed to get a boot in
but I'm not sure if yours is more like a fluffy slipper - or perhaps you're defending me (?, narh, doubt it) - or you're just giving a tight nosed dismissive pass over the subject :)
<<I put it then it 'looks' and not looks meaning the pump part looks ok but not the fixing casting as the main outlet is not fixed horizontal>>
Could you have a go at rephrasing this into some semblance of normal written English? I seriously cannot understand what you are trying to say.
|You're not alone Guy. I still don't understand most of what he says, or how he interprets black and white to make a rainbow. LOL.|
I've only got socks on btw. LOLOLOL.
as weíre on such different wavelengths I donít know if I can answer you to your satisfaction but as youíve asked and I donít want this to >>degenerated into another "Nigel Speciality"<< so will attempt to give the very short answer the type you always want from me -
inverted (single) commas used colloquially to show some scepticism
(unless it refers to something Iíve not seen or been privy to Iím not sure you used the quotation marks correctly but thatís another debate we wonít go into :) )
I compressed the accordian hose.
(Oh the shame now everyone knows)Ha ha ha.
I pressed an early 3 main mgb water pump apart not to long ago..
It was an original cast Iron with the grease fitting model.
It looks similar to a midget pump. Why would the midget pump be harder to press apart?
I was surprized to see how hard the steel the water pump shaft was made of. Very stong stuff.
Dont feel bad about being misunderstood, Its hard to compose phrases that make sence to everyone.
No boot in here!
Dont assume everyone understands things from your point of view. Some times you have to add a lot a back round to make yourself clear.
Keep your cool on man....tune in the wavelength be patient with us. :-)
Ive definately had that problem before.
I wondered how you spent your spare time
ZZZZ. Just kidding... no offense meant. :-)
donít worry I donít take the comments of Dr. Evadne Hinge and Dame Hilda Bracket as seriously as you think ;)
I had to do some serious research to finally get the joke on this one... Not having a clue that those old ladies are really guys.
Pretty Funny....Ha ha ha.
And the old time version.
Definately using your imagination.
|Steven, if you compressed your hose, then all is well, and your angle of dangle is good. lol.|
I've always said, -- "If the angle of the dangle, meets the throbbing of the knob, the urge will be constant".
Keep that in mind and you'll never go wrong. :).
As for "hard to compose phrases that make sence to everyone." --- Well that's certainly true if you are talking to an adult english audience, but write in a distorted form of childish pigeon english, that only Nigel can understand. Although, I often doubt that he actually understands what he writes himself.
If he only wrote as well as Hinge and Bracket, we'd all understand him perfectly well. :).
PS. Written in bare feet. ;).
|I do wonder if that angled waterpump is an accidental result of poor copying by an overseas pattern maker. Or if it is a design made that way so that it also fits some other application apart from the A-series engines. |
Other possibilities that occur to me are that with the lowered angle, it would make fitting a non-concertina type bit of hose in there easier. Or maybe the different angle is used in conjunction with a different shaped impeller designed to improve the flow rate?
|>>it would make fitting a non-concertina type bit of hose in there easier<<|
be serious, put your glasses on, a straight bit of hose would be slightly twisted when fitted highlighting the misalignment
it's obviously a pump designed for southern hemisphere use and shouldn't have been sold in the northern hemisphere
|Did you hear something then Lawrence? No? Must be my imagination then. I keep thinking I hear strange gabbling sounds.|
|maybe it's the echo in your room or off your mirror, kept silent and see if they go away|
|I hear it too Guy. It's just meaningless background hiss. Very strange.|
This thread was discussed between 22/01/2014 and 01/02/2014
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.