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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 1275 Roller clutch release bearing

Would I be right in thinking peter may is the only one selling a 'ready to fit' roller bearing replacement for the 1275 clutch release? I've cruise the internet but haven't found any others so far.
graeme jackson

Make your own. See the Mascot mag article on it.
Lawrence Slater

have never seen a mascot mag and don't have engineering facilities to turn the bearing housing (if I've understood what has been written here on the subject previously).

So the question stands, does anyone other than Peter may currently produce a roller bearing .
graeme jackson

You don't need any engineering facilities to make your own.

Here's mine.

Lawrence Slater

After welding on some lugs.

Lawrence Slater

Alan's is nicer than mine.



Lawrence Slater

Cheaper to make than to buy, and probably better too.

And as far as I know, only Peter May in this country has them for retail, but some people have reported problems using them. Whereas, mine is working very well indeed.

Lawrence Slater

I get it now... you weld on the 2 little legs ((from the old carbon bearing) onto the plate ... the plate holds the bearing and of course the 2 little legs fit into the fork

Nice job lawerance... that is one of those threads I never finished reading once it got up to around 8000 postings

What bearing was that from

I.stumbled across an online artical the other day for an MGB conversion using a honda bearing... im not sure if it will help with a midget but ill post it just incase

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Using the honda civic throw out bearing conversion for an mgb throw out

http://www.mgexp.com/article/diy-roller-throwout-bearing.html
Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I can't be sure Prop, but I doubt the MGB/Honda hybrid device would work in a Midget. This is based on a quick look at the catalogue for Midget and B bearings respectively. They have different part numbers for equivalent types of bearings, which tends to suggest they are dimensionally different.

There was a comment on the page you posted asking if it would fit a Midget, but it seems not to have been answered.

Interesting solution, though.
Greybeard

Here is one for a 1098 engine. It will be fitted when the 1098 is fitted in a Frogeye over the winter. (Reverse side shown showing spring clip attachment of Ford roller race to mount).
That will then be two on test as I will be fitting my 1275 copy of Lawrences bearing about the same time.

Graeme - Never seen a copy of the award winning Mascot magazine? Visit the Masc stand at the Classic Car Show NEC in November and collect a free back issue.
Alan
www.masckent.org


Alan Anstead

Many things are possible! Also in Mascot how to make a T9 bellhousing. I can Mig but not Tig so had to have that done. Also featured in Mascot.

I believe a roller race is available from Australia for 948, 1098, & 1275.

I did hear Morris Minor Centre (Birmingham) Ltd, part of the David Manners Group were supplying roller thrust races for their T9 conversion kits. Might be worth a call.
Alan

Alan Anstead

Hey greybeard

I know seth, and sent him an email asking if he got a response, on his website the spridget guru... he sort of gives the impression that it does but not blatantly

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

This was my thread Prop. "Chris Buvkhenham 1275 Clutch carbon release".

It's in the tech archives for 2015. Last post 10 June 2015 at 15:56:26 UK time. Only 20 posts in total, so worth a read.

My welded on lugs were cut offs from a bolt of the correct diameter. Bearing is an SKF. Standard Ford Sierra roller release. Like Alan I used the entire thing. I copied/modified the way it mounted in the clutch release arm from a Ford Sierra to make a carrier that fitted in the Spridget clutch fork in exactly the same way that a carbon release does. Hence it's interchangeable.

Alan, I'm sure if you could find someone to knock out the carriers, it would sell like hot cakes, as all someone needs then, is to buy the Ford release bearing. I saw them advertised not so long ago for 5 quid new.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence
Need to prove both items. I know someone with the capability.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Graeme,
yes I thnk it is and have fitted one to my 1275.
You need to remove the 'fingers' on the cover IIRC before it will fit.
Has been working ok so far although at the moment I have hydraulic issues - bleeding slave cylinder so have copied others on here and made an extension tube from the slave.
Jeremy Tickle

How many miles have you done on the P May roller Jeremy?

It's NOT the fingers you removed from the cover, it's the thrust pad on the fingers. And that seems to have been the issue for some, because unless the roller bearing runs exactly concentric to the fingers, it can break them.

When you remove the fingers, the roller release has to move further along the arc if still using a clutch fork. This means that the roller release moves below the centre, and may even contact the input shaft.

The only way to avoid that, is to fit the roller bearing closer to the cover fingers. But that makes it front heavy, and tends to cause it to drop. That seems to be why some people have had a problem.

In contrast, our home made rollers DON'T require the thrust pad to be removed from the clutch. Thus it doesn't have to move so far along the arc, and is lower in profile, thus less front heavy. It avoids all the problems, and mine has now been in for quite a while, with no issues at all. I've been in an hour long traffic jam on the M25 with it, constantly on and off the clutch in first gear. Exactly the kind of thing that destroys a carbon release.

The only other way to avoid the problem if you are removing the thrust pad (which isn't neccessary anyway), is to use a concentric clutch slave -- a worthwhile investment in itself, --IMO. But I'm still using a standard slave on my Midget, and as said, no problems at all.
Lawrence Slater

Prehaps we are looking at.this wrong, maybe we.need to convert the finger pad on the fingers to a roller bearing and leave the carbon ring on the fork

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I must have done about 5000 miles on my PM roller bearing, never had a problem. The Carbon new one I had fitted previously lasted about 200 miles.

Dave
Dave Barrow

You're quite right Lawrence, it is the pad which requires removal. It's several years since the Peter May bearing was installed and my memory is not improving :(
Haven't kept an exact note of the mileage but suspect it's about 3,000.
Had I the expertise which you and Alan demonstrate then I'd have had a bash at doing what you both have done but my fabricating/welding skills are not as good.
Jeremy Tickle

I just heard back from seth....

No I didnt confirm it.  ..."" ""... I started working at the roadster salon in rolling meadows.  They restore Fiat 124 spiders.    I was all in favor of roller bearings untill I saw John rwist's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KIdkOWVcGg

The problem is that the release fork moves the bearing in an arc.  It slides the bearing off center for part of it's travel.  a roller bearing can work only if the bearing is held on center.  This is perhaps easiest to accomplish by switching gearboxes to a datsun or ford unit, but I guess if you modified the realese fork and bearing in the right way, it should be fine.  Not sure how to do that yet.


So an interesting comment.

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Well that was certianly an intresting john twist video...im not sure what to make of that

Im glad ive got a datsun G. Box


Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Your comment from Seth is exactly what I said Prop.

" ----maybe we.need to convert the finger pad on the fingers to a roller bearing and leave the carbon ring on the fork --- "

That may well work, if you could easily do that, or easily attach a roller bearing. But I reckon it's easier to bung a roller in the clutch fork, -- or swap to concentric which is even better.
Lawrence Slater

I'm resurrecting this thread because the carbon bearing in my Frogeye (with 1275 clutch) has failed yet again. This after less than 500 miles. I never used to have this trouble with them. Time for a roller bearing methinks. Any more thoughts anyone on the concentricity issue? My guess is that it will be minimal in both time (assuming quick changes) and space (as the 1275 throw is quite small). I have found the Sierra bearing at Eurocarparts but it doesn't look like the one mentioned in this thread. They only have this one part for all Sierras. If it's the right diameter I'm sure I can make it fit.

Just to clarify, I have the 3/4" master, 1275 slave, and the slave pushrod is the correct 2 11/16". I have a 1098 gearbox with thick backplate. I checked the bearing clearance with everything installed, and it wasn't rubbing.


L B Rose

L.B
That is the wrong thrust race. I will dig out the part number and post it tomorrow.
Alan

Alan Anstead

Here is one, I made, in operation on a members 1098 Frogeye. I am currently working on a 948 variant.
Alan
www.masckent.org


Alan Anstead

Yeah L B

i bet your embarressed now arnt you... wrong part number ... phiff

If your going to be wrong ... do it like i do, ALL IN, NO HALFWAY IN STUFF.

HAHA

prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

LB
OE number is ECB113
LUK part number 500 0071 10
Apparently it is for Ford / Mazda / Talbot.
My local Eurospares did not have it listed but got it next day on special order.
The 'plastic' carrier has two projecting lugs that have to be cut / machined off.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Thanks Alan. Do you mean www.eurospares.co.uk/? They seem to specialise in Italian exotica.
L B Rose

reckon Alan meant
http://www.eurocarparts.com/
David Smith

OK folks, I googled the part numbers and found it at several outlets.
L B Rose

Just pulled out the engine again. This is the state of the release bearing. The clutch release plate is loose on the fingers - hence the jangling I could hear. Yet another knackered pressure plate. Could this be repaired? And why does this keep happening?

L B Rose

HAD SAME PROBLEM WITH MINE FOUND WEAR IN CLUTCH FORK BUSH WHERE BOLT GOES THROUGH,REPLACE BUSH SOURCED FROM MOSS ALSO REPLACED SLAVE CYL & ROD & OBTAINED A ROLLER RELEASE BEARING FROM COLIN DODDS, www.SpriteParts.com.au, PRICY BUT NOT WHEN U CONSIDER AMOUNT OF WORK TO CHANGE IT EVERY YEAR!
p kiely

LB
The pressure pad is held from behind the clutch diaphram fingers by a swaged ring. I have had one fail. A couple of spot welds will repair it.
Alan
Alan Anstead

The Moss MGB roller bearing has a carbon face between the roller bearing and the pressure plate. I guess this is the compromise to prove John Twist wrong.

The MGB unit is also substantially bigger than the Midget one. I have a Midget 1275 fork waiting on the bench, so if there is interest I can take a photo of the MGB roller bearing and the Midget fork side by side.

dominic clancy

The pressure pad is domed now not flat. I don't think a couple of welds will fix that. I've ordered yet another new clutch. This will be number 5 in 16 years.

To address the eccentricity I will spray the pressure pad and the release bearing with resin bonded PTFE dry lubricant - keeping it off the clutch plate of course!

L B Rose

Why not just correct the eccentricity problem?

Either fitting an internal concentric clutch system, or if you want to retain your present system, then use a clutch fork with a slotted pivot point to compensate for the "arc" effect.
Guy W

Some possibilities:
- the setup is incorrect such that there's no clearance and the bearing is in constant contact with the thrust plate
- the driver rides the clutch whilst in gear when stationary, and does a lot of hill starts
- carp non-OE spec thrust bearings coupled with a floppy arm due to a worn out fulcrum bush & bolt

or perm any 2 from 3,
David Smith

Going back about ten years, I bought a thrust bearing from Moss and the dimensions were all wrong.

I sent it back.

I wonder how many people are using bearings which are dimensionally incorrect?
Dave O'Neill 2

LB Rose,

Can you please say where you bought your last carbon release bearing?

Did it have a roll pin in the side of the carrier, that appears to hold the carbon in place?

Before it destroyed itself, did your carbon release carrier look like the one on the left in this picture?

As recently as last year, what was being sold by Sussex and Moss, as 1275(GRB107), was in fact 1098(GRB102), with a roll pin to hold the carbon in place.

Here's the comparison, new incorrect(left) one against an old original one (right), with the carbon missing.




Lawrence Slater

I used a standard ford Sierra roller release to make mine too.

Here's a search result on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=ford+sierra+clutch+release+bearing&_sop=15

Currently there's a NOS sierra roller release bearing going for 11.99 INC postage.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-CAPRI-SIERRA-ESCORT-MKI-MKII-RELIANT-SCIMITAR-CLUTCH-RELEASE-BEARING-CCT132-/121887451083?fits=Car+Make%3AFordModel%3ASierra&hash=item1c610ee7cb:g:8LwAAOSw5dNWtgqt

Quinton Hazel Part number CCT132 for a Sierra roller release. Likely it will have been made by SKF.
Lawrence Slater

LB
1098 gearbox, 1275 clutch, thick backplate. Is this with a 948 engine?
What yoke do you have?

The factory recommendation when fitting a ribcase to a 948 was to use the thick plate and the 1098 flywheel & 7.5 clutch.
Have you perhaps in using the 1275 clutch mixed but not matched.

For each engine size there is a different yoke.. Is your yoke bent?
Alan
Alan Anstead

Yes this is a 948 engine. Hence 948 flywheel, drilled for the 1275 clutch. I believe there are only 2 yokes, the 1098/1275 and the 948. The 948 won't fit the ribcase box. It isn't bent, and it had adequate clearance when installed last time.

Can't remember where I got the carbon bearing, probably Moss. I didn't have a scroll pin. Interesting that the carbon seems to have fallen out, leaving a clean patch of steel, ie the carbon wasn't worn right down to the steel.

No I don't ride the clutch at traffic lights.
L B Rose

OK, thanks LB.

"Interesting that the carbon seems to have fallen out, leaving a clean patch of steel, ie the carbon wasn't worn right down to the steel."

Huh?



Lawrence Slater

"Interesting that the carbon seems to have fallen out,....."

yes that was possibly quite common at one time - that's why they started using a pin in from the side to prevent it (i.e. a bodge, rather than manufacture the thing correctly to original dimensions and tolerances).
I have a part-worn one here that you can extract the carbon ring with just light finger pressure!
David Smith

Sorry Lawrence, I didn't make myself clear. What I mean is that there is unabraded surface on the steel, suggesting that the carbon fell out before it wore right down.
L B Rose

BTW folks my name is Les but the BBS won't update my details!
L B Rose

Hi Les.

What may have happened, is that the bearing was running off centre. It looks from your picture that one side has worn. The carbon was ground down until it reached the carrier, and then that was ground down until the remainder of the carbon disintegrated and fell out, and then the carrier was metal to metal on the thrust pad on the clutch cover.

Also, it should be noted, that the release bearing is ALWAYS in contact with the thrust pad on the clutch cover, -- albeit lightly. There is a spring in the clutch slave cylinder that pushes the piston OUT towards the clutch fork, thereby keeping the bearing pressed against the thrust pad.

This was never much of a problem in the past, since the carbon bearings were better. Although if you commuted in heavy traffic, stop and start everyday, that did knacker the carbons pretty quickly. I remember going through quite a few when I lived in London and drove to work every day in the rush hours.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, you could well be right, but the bearing would have gone further off-centre as the carbon disappeared and reduced its thickness. I am using the fork that came with the gearbox, and have replaced the bush, so it should be centred. From what you say, it should be set up so that it's centred when the clutch is engaged, only going off-centre when the pedal is pushed. Something for me to check today. I have an old carbon bearing that I can use as a guide.
L B Rose

A lot depends on that bush, and of course a straight arm. As the arm sits at an angle in the box, there's a tendancy for the bearing to drop -- clockwise-- off centre. Maybe once it goes too far, that's when the carbon begins to wear more one side than the other, and then eventually the wear ring created in the carbon, forces more off centre, until destruction.

Why not convert to a concentric if you can't fit a roller?

-------

As for the current batch of carbons on sale.

I've just had a chat with Sussex again. Last year I bought one from them -- which I haven't used --, the one on the left in my picture below. I asked if there had been any reports of problems, with any they sold in the last year, and the answer is no. He's got the same ones in his own two Midgets, -- for 2 years -- and still working fine.

He also said as David said, the roll pin is there to prevent the carbon spinning in the carrier. So maybe the problem carbons, are now the ones that DON'T have the roll pin?
Lawrence Slater

Ah, just realised that the bearing was worn off-centre sideways not up and down. Need to check that fork again......
L B Rose

From the wear, it looks to me as if one of the two arms of the clutch lever arm is out of alignment with the other, either bent forwards or bent back. If you put a length of close fitting dowel through the pivot bush of the arm it should lie in the same plane as the carrier "hands" that hold the bearing lugs. There may be a twist in the clutch fork.
Guy W

Guy, the fork arms are in alignment, but when installed they are off centre side to side.

I have now dug out a spare fork and carefully rebushed it. It seems to be better that the old one but the bearing is still off centre. You can see in the pic that it's maybe 3mm off. I can't see any difference in shape between the 2 forks. I wonder if it's the gearbox front cover that's wrong. But how can that happen?

BTW the new fork bush was made on the lathe so it is accurate.

L B Rose

Here is a picture of the Moss MGB roller bearing next to a standard carbon one



dominic clancy

a close up of the roller bearing

dominic clancy

and a last one of the MGB bearing offered up to a 1275 fork

dominic clancy

Hi Dominic.

I think we already knew that the MGB bearing was too big fit in a Spridget fork. ;).

Lawrence Slater

That's a crude way of securing the carbon to the backplate on the Moss roller bearing!
Jeremy Tickle

....and here is mine folks. I must say it doesn't look too robust, but it's not possible to make it wider and still have clearance with the fork. Presumably most of the stiffness will come from the bearing itself. It looks uneven because it's just been painted and hasn't cured yet. The most difficult bit was getting the thickness of those 2 lugs correct so that the clips fit snugly. I had to put a bit of weld on each one and file down. Fortunately I had in stock some steel rod the right size for the fork lugs. Hopefully I have got the dimensions such that the face of the bearing is where it would be for a new carbon one.

I have had to wait all week for the bearing, and only got it yesterday so could not start work on the carrier before then. It really is not on for a supplier to say on their website that an item is in stock and available for delivery in 2 days (ie Wednesday), and then to phone me on Wednesday telling me that it's out of stock and they can't send it until Friday. Then they had the cheek to offer me a voucher. I got a refund, and an eBay supplier sent me another one.

There was a note in the box saying that the bearing is self-centring. Indeed it moves about on the plastic backing plate, albeit tightly. Obviously the Ford clutch operates differently and this self-centring isn't going to work on the Sprite. I think I'll ensure the bearing is centralised when I assemble and then run some superglue into the junction to ensure it doesn't move again. Does that sound sensible? I don't want the bearing wandering about in service.

L B Rose

Don't bother with superglue.

The beariing sits on a rubber cushion. It won't move much.

The main thing is that the Ford carrier, sits tightly in your home made carrier. More important will be the fork bush.

Even if it runs off centre a little, it will 'slide' against the thrust pad on the clutch cover. -- ASSUMING YOU AREN'T REMOVING THAT.

Most of the thrust force will be at the sides, from behind the lugs. Which is why Alan was able to produce a ligether version of mine.

And here is mine, in situ, just before I removed it a few days ago, after some 1500/1600 miles of service.

It's still perfect.

PS LB. You could have used the old clutch cover. The beauty of the roller, is that it's VERY forgiving of the state of the thrust pad.

Lawrence Slater

No I haven't removed the thrust pad. The old one was very loose on the diaphragm fingers and rattled a lot. But on reflection you may be right - as the new bearing is held against the pad by the spring in the slave cylinder there should not be any play. Am I right? I've not put the engine back in yet and will maybe go back to the old clutch cover, keeping the new one or selling it on.

My bearing when installed looks exactly like yours. The fork bush is new and there is no significant play.
L B Rose

Yup. It's not held tightly, but it is held against the pad.

When I put the roller in, I used an old clutch, with rust and scoring on the thrust pad. It's also loose and rattles. But the face of the roller bearing, doesn't contact the entire surface. Just the outer circumfrence.

When I pulled the roller bearing out, I put back the newer clutch -- because I put a carbon back in. I'll take a photo of the clutch cover. It looks similar to yours.

But if yours (thrust pad) is worn excessively thin at the outer edge, maybe you'd be better with a new cover, 'esp if you've already bought and paid for it.
Lawrence Slater

Yes Lawrence I have left the new clutch in seeing as how....

The old one has had very few miles on it and will be good for someone using the Peter May bearing without the thrust pad. Hydraulics bled and pedal is in the right place at last.

Thanks to everyone on this thread who pointed me in the right direction. Hopefully I can leave the engine in for a while now.
L B Rose

L.B
Let us have some feedback once you have some mileage recorded.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Will do Alan.
L B Rose

Have had a laser print done of the backplate of my version on the roller thrust race and looks like I am getting some laser cut examples.
Might get around to turning up some spindles and making a few if I am not too busy.
Alan

Alan Anstead

Hi guys,


Happy 1500 owners with their proper roller bearings!
SR Smith 1

And their 1500 engine, of course ;p
Bernie Higginson

LOL Bernie.
"Bazinga!"
Greybeard

I just re-read my last comment and it looks a bit below the belt.
No offence was intended to either 1500s or their owners. It was after all, the first genuine 100mph Midget in standard form and they are good value for money when compared to others in the range, especially Frogeyes, which despite their cuteness, I can't for the life of me understand why they command such high prices.
So, rock on you 1500s, just watch those thrust washers.
Bernie Higginson

A picture of the thrust race backplate laser printed.
It has passed a trial fit on the roller bearing.
Metal copies are, hopefully, now to be laser cut from sheet steel.
Alan

Alan Anstead

Like it Alan, especially the inner faces forming an Octagon!
Jeremy Tickle

I cannot claim that the Octagonal inner faces were part of the design concept. I may be getting the laser cut steel copies this week.
If they arrive I will post a picture.
Alan
Alan Anstead

I will try to post a picture later today.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Started something here.
Alan

Alan Anstead

Very impressive Alan. I'm sure there will be a well-beaten path to your door.

If my car was an A series I'd be in the queue! Good work Fella!
Greybeard

Great stuff Alan! It took a day for me to file mine to shape and weld on the lugs.

So far it's working very well. Even with a new carbon, previously the clutch juddered when hot. Now it doesn't.
L B Rose

L.B
The laser cut baseplates certainly save time.
The slow part is now making the lugs but I have so far completed a few units. One is destined for a Midget, currently undergoing an engine rebuild, at the end of the month.
The 1098 version that I made has positive feedback.
Glad to hear that yours is working fine and that you notice the improvement.
Alan
Alan Anstead

BBS Needs Like button.

Like.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Amen to that Dean.

**Like**
Greybeard

Not exactly mass production.
Alan

Alan Anstead

If there are any spares can I put my name down for a unit please ?

I can assist machining up some pivots if that helps - make a change from steam engine bits !

R.
richard boobier

Richard
I am only doing them, at present, for Midget & Sprite Club members but e-mail me next week at enquiries at midgetandspriteclub dot co dot uk to discuss.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Will do Alan, I've been a member for years if that helps get on the list !

R.
richard boobier

This thread was discussed between 27/08/2015 and 17/03/2016

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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