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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 1500 Midget - sill/inner wing/footwell interface

Hello Everyone,

I wondered whether someone might be able to point me at a suitable photo.

We currently have the front NS outer wing off my wife's 1500 midget to carry out a few weld repairs. Everything looks solid enough to just need a few small patches but the point where the inner wing, front of the footwell, outer sill and sill end cap all meet is a bit of a mess with missing panel edges and the area vaguely filled with weld. I am trying to work out which panel should correctly overlap which other panel and in what order so that the patches can be let in correctly.

Photos showing that internal corner and from the other side (wheel side) would be extremely helpful in figuring this out.

Thanks

Alec
AG Gunner

Hi Alec, welcome,
others will be along with more detailed info and hopefully photos but in the meantime there were two (long) threads with lots of photos and info that may help you but do read carefully as Dave made a few minor mistakes as he went along but had the time and expertise to correct them.

. click on the 'Archive' link on the top of this page
. on the page it takes you to copy and paste in to the 'Search this archive' box - Restoration of an MG Midget
. under this click on the 'this phrase' button
. under that tick the box for 'Search in thread title only'
. click the 'Start Search' button.

This should take you to the two threads (Volume 2) and scroll through for what you are looking for.

HTH.
Nigel Atkins

Sorry Alec I've just seen it was a LHD so be aware of that too, despite looking similar there are lots of small in even the UK models over the years but I don't think the area you're with varies a lot but I wouldn't know for sure.

Chris and others are 1500 owners that can weld, I'm neither.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel,

I have found the threads you refer to and am working through them looking at the pictures. Hopefully there will be something from the correct angle to show what I need.

I will shortly be finding out how out of practice my welding is. Fortunately this bit doesn't show...

Regards

Alec
AG Gunner

Alec,
I will see if I can conjure up Chris who restored a 1500 (but take no advice from him about front indicators) and hopefully others will turn out here too.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Alec,

Have a look at my blog here, it is a 1965, but very similar in that area.

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/p/gallery_9.html

There are more detailed explanations in the individual posts, probably from this point on:

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/2019/02/passenger-footwell.html

Let me know if you need any further help.

Kind regards

James
James Paul

James has some good pictures, well worth a look.

I have just been through my photos of my restoration but there isn’t really one showing what you are after.

In the restoration of an MG Midget thread there was this picture that may help. It shows the toe board and the end piece with their flanges which the inner sill attaches to.

Guy had a nice picture of how he finished off the gap between the ends of the inner and outer sills by reversing the filler piece to create a box rather than the factory moisture trap.

Maybe some photos of the area you are trying to repair will aid further replies?



Chris Madge

Hi Alec,

Have a look at my blog here:

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/p/gallery_9.html

There are more detailed explanations in the individual posts, probably from this point on:

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/2019/02/passenger-footwell.html

Let me know if you need any further help.

Kind regards

James
James Paul

Knew I had posted about it

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/2019/12/sill-end-repairs.html
James Paul

Thanks All,

I can see from the pictures how the toe board meets the inner sill and how the toe board meets the inner wing.

James - this area is slightly different in the 1500. On yours, the outer sill projects forward of the line of the toe board but on my wife's they are flush. This looks right as the wheel arch from the outer wing lines up with it. It avoids creating the same rust trap but it also means that the end cap cannot be joined in the same way.

The areas I still can't see are how the end cap is fitted (is there a three layer thick region where the end cap, inner sill and toe board tab join and does the end cap have a return into the outer and upper faces of the outer sill, or does the sill have returns?) and, most significantly, I can't work out how the narrow bottom edge of the inner wing connects with either the sill end cap or the upper face of the outer sill.

Photos might help if the area I am looking at is not clear from the above description. Unfortunately, photos of mine would just show an area with a vague hole where some bits should be!

Regards

Alec
AG Gunner

This is the thread of my restoration of my 1500


https://mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=97&subjectar=97&thread=2019010222042924724

Scroll down about 2/5 of the way and you will see Guy's picture (in light blue) of how he filled in the front end of the sill gap, by reversing the filler piece.

I simply continued the end of the toe board across and butt joined it to the outer sill. That way there is no overlapping of any metal.

Chris Madge

Rear followed by front.





anamnesis

I can't remember whose picture this is, (Simon?) but it's an execellent explanatory picture.


anamnesis

And check out this collection. This IS Simon Overy's record. Very good.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53944874@N04/sets/72157626428773788/




anamnesis

Thanks Everyone,

Simon Overy's photos explained exactly what I was looking for.

I was presuming that the bottom end of the inner wing (curve and flat) joined to something to create a smooth curve as at the rear, but it appears that they don't. They just sort of stop a bit above the top face of the outer sill. I also hadn't appreciated that the toe board area is sort of double skinned on the lower face. It doesn't make much difference, but it does explain the layers.

My wife's has been overplated on some of the vertical part of the front of the toeboard and that has been carried across to cover the end cap, sort of like an extension with a curved edge to meet the outer sill, rather than flat with a folded return. The original material behind is visible now that the top of the outer sill has been cut back and there is a bit of a gap between the overplating and the inner sill return, so they have not been welded together but I don't think that matters. I don't like overplating and as I repair areas it will get cut out and replaced properly, but this area is absolutely solid so it can stay for now until it actually needs doing. This is not a restoration as such, just running repairs. The aim is to do an area every winter (running behind this year) and then use it from spring through to autumn. It got used right through to December last year.

I have managed to get a couple of photos so will upload in case there is anything else they prompt. Not sure why they are showing at at random rotation relative to the originals. Note the side of the footwell has also been internally overplated, hence the decayed regions visible is not structural anymore and the inner sill is rock solid, but otherwise I think it's question answered.

Alec







AG Gunner

You might be using one of those i-can't or portable devices for the photos, they're not always as clever as sold.

Anam or Guy will be able to give you an idea for A-post drainage.






Nigel Atkins

The pictures don't reveal if the is rust in the sills below the a post or indeed at the bottom of thr a post.

But anyway, unless you are replacing the sills, then this is the best way to add drains below the a post, to prebent said rust in that area.

http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/a-post-drainage-maybe-b-post-too-2013060821252817430.htm

Or see the same thread in the tech archives.

https://mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=97&subjectar=97&thread=2013060821252817430










anamnesis

Finished result


anamnesis

If you do replace the sills, then you can add the drains to the sills prior to fitting. And add a drain to behind the b post too. Even though the b post drain is less neccessary, it doesn't take much effort to add one if replacing the sill anyway, and prevents any condensation gathering behind that lower section of the wing.

Having tubes allows any water to run all the way through.

But it's still worth having evenly spaced drain holes in the bottoms of the sills, because unless completely sealed, the sills attract condensation too.







anamnesis

I do like Anamn's drain tubes through the sills. A very neat solution. My version was a bit simpler and pretty crude really. I just drilled a 5/8" hole in the top of the sill directly beneath the A post, and then a smaller drain hole in the bottom of the sill directly beneath it to let any water out. Certainly not as good as Anam's tubed drainage, especially considering how prone sills are to rusting, but I hadn't thought of adding tubes when I first did mine.

I also drill a couple of venting holes further up the A post to the inside, the aim being to encourage a bit of air circulation inside that area to cut down on condensation.
GuyW

Thank you for the ideas around the A-post drain. This area is currently very solid so I am not inclined to cut it about but I will look at adding a drain in front of the A post which will at least stop any water from running right up into the corner there.

Really the only damage on the sills is that frayed end shown in the picture. Overall, the car seems to have been pretty well looked after and never allowed to get into a state, so although the repair work may not be the best or the neatest and there have been some interesting changes in the shade of green applied at various points (currently John Deere we think), it has always been kept on top of. This continues - while the wing is off my wife will be finding any small surface rust spots which are currently visible, taking them out with a Dremel with a wire brush and treating/painting to prevent recurrence. It will never have pristine paintwork but on the other hand it should be possible to keep it in good mechanical and structural order without needing a full rebuild.

Alec
AG Gunner

Alec,

That area at the top front of the sill, and rear lower section of the wheel arch, can't be fully sealed out the the outer edge of the sill, because the wing return prevents this.

I joined my wheel arch to the top of the sill as shown. This is as far out as I was able to make my wheel arch extend, and still be able to bolt the wing back. Plenty of seam sealer under the paint in all the seams behind the wing.

I don't have a picture, but with the wing bolted back on, what I have also done is use some 15mm domestic foam type pipe lagging ( slit lengthwise ), to slide over the edge of the wheel arch, so that it extends right down to the top of the sill. Thus is it squeezed between the wing and the wheel arch, and stops all water and road dirt from being thrown into the area on top of the sill behind the wing. I did that a couple of years ago now, and so far that area behind the front wing, in front of the bottom of the A post, has remained completely dry and free from any road dirt at all.



anamnesis

All these body work pictures have me itchy to do some grinding and welding!

Perhaps I need a new project...

Good luck with your resto AG!

Malc.
Malcolm

>>some 15mm domestic foam type pipe lagging ( slit lengthwise ), to slide over the edge of the wheel arch, so that it extends right down to the top of the sill. <<

That's clever. Has the foam lagging survived? OTOH it's not exactly expensive is it?
Greybeard

Yep no damage to the lagging at all. Seems to be very hard wearing.
anamnesis

Isn't the foam piping going to hold moisture?
Chris Madge

It's that closed cell stuff. And so far after a couple of years, I haven't noticed it acting like a sponge. Water runs off it.

But I've got some spare, I'll soak it in a bowl and see if it acts like a sponge.
anamnesis

It's for insulating central heating pipes and the like so I'd guess (don't know) condensation would have been factored in and IIRC (not good odds) the thicker walled stuff was used for unheated areas and perhaps(?) outside by I'm doubting myself with that.

I can say from experience it's got at least a 25+ year life used indoors.
Nigel Atkins

Closed cell pipe lagging won't hold water. Biggest risk is that road grit and salt gets caught between lagging and the inside paintwork of the wing panel. In time with vibration of the wing it might wear through the paint to bare metal. You could stick a strip of ductape as a barrier.
GuyW

I can confirm it floats in water, it doesn't absorb it.

No risk of grit getting in, it's wedged in tight and doesnt move with vibration. It compresses, and expands again when released as long as it's not crushed.

As I say, it's been in place for a couple of years, since I replaced my sills, and resprayed the car, and nothing is getting past it into the space behind the wing.

And this isn't the first time I've used it anyway. I've been using it this way on my Sprite for about 20 years. When I took my wings off a couple of years ago, after about 18 years, there had been no chaffing back to bare metal, there was no rust where the lagging had been pressed against the wing, and the area behind the wing on top of the sill, was dry; none of the usual road debris.

But no doubt there are other materials that could be used, in place of pipe lagging.

The point is, to put a barrier between the wheel arch and the wing, to completely seal that gap, and prevent any water or road dirt being thrown in. Lagging does the job well, but it's only one method, I'm sure there are others.
anamnesis

Right then. I'm off to Buildbase tomorrow morning.
Thanks for the tip.
😁
Greybeard

Malcolm - if you are feeling the urge to cut and grind but don't want the expense of buying a vehicle, you are welcome to come and do mine! I am supposed to be working on my Series 2 Land Rover but keep getting dragged off to do other things - Midget because otherwise I have no transport and a 1956 Benford dumper which ended up needing slightly more urgent attention than I had hoped. That one is less effective transport though - getting it road registered would be a challenge and even if I did it tops out at 15mph. Given that I have had to make some replacement panels for it, I am contemplating giving it an oil change - I don't think it has ever had one!

Another question - does anyone have a decent photo of the front end of a 1500 wing, from the inside. I am trying to work out what the return should look like, from the front of the wheel arch round the front of the panel. The frayed remains of the original and the random welded on bits of steel are insufficient for me to extrapolate to a sensible shape from.

Cheers

Alec
AG Gunner

Aren't 1500 wings essentially the same as 1275/1098 wings, other than side light shape (1500) and height 1098 vs 1275? Also the curve of the arch differs slightly.

But the bolt fixings are the same aren't they?

Anyway, here's a couple from ebay.





anamnesis

Perfect, thank you.

I don't know the vehicles well enough to know which parts stayed the same and which were changed over the years. This is the first one I have had to do anything to other than admire!

The detail I was looking for, as shown above, is that the return lip goes all the way round the panel at the same width, thus creating a nice rust trap at the front in particular, which is probably why it is now missing.

More welding required.

Alec
AG Gunner

There are many built in rust traps in Spridgets.

Albeit that cars weren't built to survive for more than 10 years or even less, it wouldn't have tajen much effort to have changed a number of areas. Just making more and bigger drain holes would have helped.

On the other hand, if my Sprite hadn't rusted, I'd never have bought a cheap mig and taught myself to weld.😁
anamnesis

I am rapidly re-learning how to weld. I spent plenty of time in the 1990s patching up the sills and wheel arches on my Vauxhall Nova with some very ugly but functional MIG. It finally died when the whole floor pan rotted out. The Midget is my first real positional welding for a while and it's a test of my TIG having to work that low down - I use a foot power control (like a sewing machine) and it isn't easy to find somewhere to put my leg! On about 6" of seams so far there is 1" worth I am happy with, but on the plus side I haven't blown any holes so it's not all bad.

I am beginning to think I will need to take out the rust traps as I go - the wing one looks fairly easy with a couple of 1/2" holes at the two low points. The advent of step drills has really made it a lot easier to do such things and get a neat finish.

Alec
AG Gunner

This thread was discussed between 06/04/2021 and 18/04/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.