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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 5 Speed Cinversion Kit

The 5 speed conversion kit from Thomas Turner arrived earlier today. The quality appears to be excellent with everything included, apart from the Ford Type 9 gear box. There is even the circlip to fit the supplied speedo cable - type 9 to Spridget. The cost was £700 which is much cheaper than other kits. I will be fitting it to the car next week and if anyone is interested I will post photos of the kit and the new gear box.

I have moved the lever on the Type 9 as far forwards as it will go and it looks like with the conversion the lever will be about 1" further back in the car. I don't know if the large, circular rubbers seal will accommodate this. If not I will have to move the metal box/cover but this would need a new carpet.

I have rebuilt the Type 9 box myself and the only issue was removing the layshaft rear bearing. If anyone is thinking of doing a similar job message me and I will tell you how I did it



Jan T

J Targosz

"I have rebuilt the Type 9 box myself and the only issue was removing the layshaft rear bearing. If anyone is thinking of doing a similar job message me and I will tell you how I did it "

Me too. We can compare notes and pictures. I seem to recall my method involved a heavy hammer. Lol. I'll have to refresh my memory. 😁
anamnesis

Hi Anam,

I am certain you will remember the rear lay shaft bearing is in the thick, aluminium spacer plate. This needs to be removed rearwards to allow the lay gear to fall so the main shaft teeth can "unlock" and let the main shaft be removed from the main casing. I couldn't see any way of gripping the bearing or tapping it out. I was able to move the spacer plate about 1/2" away from the main case. I made up two "T" shaped tommy bars out of 1/4" steel and bent the bottom 1/2" at right angles. I used these to push the bearing in the same way the Dents Away man massages a dent. This worked as a fashion but I then heated the aluminium spacer and the bearing moved some way out. There was enough protuding for me to attach a a large jubilee clip and then lever the bearing out fully.

Apart from this the job was easier than working on a rib case.

Jan
J Targosz

I agree, it was a surprise to me too, that rebuilding a type 9 is actually pretty easy. I ended up doing 3 or 4 of them, as well as converting the one in my Sprite to a long 1st gear. I bought the 1st gear kit really cheap, before the prices shot up.

Yep I remember the bearing. I'll fire up my laptop and look at my pictures to see if I recorded my removal method.
anamnesis

Ah, the dreaded speedo cable circlip. I tried and tried and tried to fit this and only managed to strip the plastic gearwheel in the box. I even cut a big hole in the transmission tunnel and fitted a big square rubber bung (the same as the clutch slave bleed access hole) and still boloxed it. Gave up in the end and resorted to my satnav.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob, never had problems with that on my 5speed.
Got a special plyers for installing the circlip.
And have a 90 degree angle box(Spedograph Richfield) so the cable rus alongside the gearbox instead of connecting it sideways by cutting a hole in the tunnel and running the cable via the cabin.

not a photo of the unit in its whole, this is from when for some reason the little cable inside the anglebox gave up :(


A de Best

I couldn't get the circlip to work either. It went in ok but wasn't reliable and kept working it's way loose
So I then drilled the casing and added security wire twisted to secure the circlip and trumpet shaped bit in place.
GuyW

I have modified an angle box to fit the type 9 speedo output and the original Spridget speedo cable. It is longer than I would have liked but I needed to accommodate the bearings for the worm drive in the angle box. I hope it will fit in the transmisssion tunnel. The job to date has gone surprisingly well for a person of my age with the need for long periods on the floor under the jacked up car. The main issue was cutting out the original cross member without setting the interior on fire and especially drilling the holes for the new cross member bolts. These need to be drilled from underneath and my drill plus 10m/m bit just fitted between the garage floor and the cross member stubs. I just couldn't get enough "push" on the drill. Eventually I cut the drill bit in half with an angle grinder so I could get a hand under the drill to force it upwards. I didn't use the hex headed bolts supplied in the kit and substituted them with heavy duty coach bolts (Tollstation). This means the heads in the crossmember are flat and won't interfere with the carpet. Once bolted up everything appears very strong.

I now await my MG TD owning friend returning from his WW 2 Spitfire escapades at Duxford to lift the A Series and Type 9 into the car.


Jan T



J Targosz

That looks to be a very neat and tidy assembly Jan. Nice job!

You will find that 5th gear so much better in your car, especially when driving north on those fabulous Scottish Highland roads! Autumn days with cool air, clear skies and amazing colours in the landscape are just perfect for top down motoring through the glens.
GuyW

Thanks Guy but the silver paint has hidden the aluminium welds in the shortened gear shift. The stuff Ford used for casting the rear casings is absolute rubbish. My welds are anything but elegant but they are strong. The critical job when shortening the shift is drilling the new hole in the single rail for the roll pin. The angle is no problem since you can use the existing hole as reference. It is the distance between the old and new holes that is the issue. You cann't measure this since you won't know exactly how much you have moved the lever forwards. I slipped the "dog" onto the shaft and by trial and error positioned it correcctly (many photos taken before cutting the aluminium) and then super glued it in place. After very careful dismantling I was the able to used the positioned dog for drilling at the bench.

Jan T
J Targosz

Pretty well how I did mine Jan, only I measured the position of the "dog" relative to the rear flange of the output shaft before I cut the turret off. It gave me a datum to calculate the new position. And I drilled the shaft in situ with a hand drill, not on the bench. All worked out just fine. That was 20 years ago now.
GuyW

Jan,

Did you use MIG or TIG? I've TIG welded a couple of Ford extension housings and not had an issue with the material but then you can let the impurities rise to the surface and burn off. Had to do that when welding a 70+ year old Austin 7 gearbox part but it came out fine.
David Billington

Hi David,

TIG was used and the job is OK but I am an old school (and old) engineer and like to see an elegant job, even if it will never be seen. The guy I purchased my kit from, Thomas Turner, says he has done numerous conversions and welding the aluminium was a problem with every one. I think ultra sonic cleaning would help.

I have only changed gear with the shortened box on the bench and it appears to be fine. On my TF there is a plate, about 2" long bolted to the stub of the type 9 lever and then to the lever in the car. You will see this used in various conversions. I always feel this rotates the stub in the box rather than moving from left to right to left and spoils the precision of the Ford box.


Jan T
J Targosz

The engine and Ford gearbox are now in the car. Instructions like "drill a 3/8 hole through the floor" don't tell you you will be doing this on your back, under the car risking a broken wrist trying to do it left handed.

Notable issues have been :-

Cutting the crossmember. I had hoped to keep the piece cut out in case I needed to weld it back in, but in the end had to section it with an angle grinder. There were lots of sparks and fear of a fire. I did remove the fuel line which passes by the crossmember. One of the long sabre saws would have made the job easier as would a car ramp. Unfortunately I don't have either.

The engine and new box went into the car easilly but it is definitely a two man job. One person needs to work the hoist whilst the other needs to put a sling under the gear box tail and lift it thought the gear lever appature.

Now the dreaded bolt holes. You need to attach a thick, very strong plate to the rear mounting, after the engine and box are in the car. The tail can be supported either by the above sling or preferably a bottle jack. The rear of the box needs to be lifted until the plate positions itself on the underside of the car. You then have to drill six holes through predilled holes in the plate through the floor and box sections. If you have a hoist this would be easy but on your back under a jacked up and certainly axle propped car it is a nightmare. My drill plus 3/8" bit was too long to fit under the car and I had to cut a piece of the bit off with my angle grinder. The drill snagged a couple of times and nearly broke my wrist.

Speedo drive. The cable is supposed to come through a newly cut hole in the transmission tunnel and wind up under the carpet. Far better to use and angle box but this will cost £75.

The standard Ford rear mount bolts to the thick reinforcing plate but it is impossible to get a spanner on the bolt head. Eventually I squared the holes in the mount and used heavy duty coach bolts. This allowed me to tighted the nuts with a single spanner.

Use of the standard tail shaft mounting means the engine is tilted back slightly. This meant my LCB manifold was out by a wisker and I had to crawl uner the car again to slacken off all the clips. I hope this doesn't cause a problem with the carb fuel levels.

I hope to finish the job tomorrow (not looking forward to fitting the bottom rad hose) and will let you know if the £1,100 expenditure was worth it.


Jan T
J Targosz

Many jobs are easier with two people. But that doesn't mean they have to be two people. And I often find it easier on my own anyway. T9 box install is just as easy as a one person job. I found it to be pretty easy on my own, but maybe I could have done it 15 minutes faster with someone else.





anamnesis

My chassis cut.

I cut the bare minimum out, keeping the bit removed in case I ever want to reverse it. But I never will. I kept the two captive strengtheners either side, which makes it easier/stronger when bolting up after, and removes the need to seal the chassis.


anamnesis

The only difficulty removing the layshaft (counter shaft) bearing, is in removing the 5th gear counter shaft gear. Once that's off, remove the circlip, and the bearing isn't that difficult to remove.







anamnesis

Thus. Picture courtesy Haynes, as I didn't take my own picture of prising the bearing from the ally 5th gear intermediate housing.





anamnesis

Long 1st gear conversion.

You may need to modifiy the main casing a little. Not difficult.



anamnesis

You may not need to do this, as on some cases there is room for the larger gear anyway. Depends on the casting. Not much needs taking out anyway.





anamnesis

Simple tools needed. A diy home job. The cost is the new gear cluster. It's gone up in price since I bought mine for 200 quid from Autogear ----- Or was it the One stop gearbox shop? Forget now.

Yep, it was 'One stop gearbox shop'.

1.00 x 32857 TYPE 9 MODIFIED LAYGEAR KIT ₤196.86

Now it's £448.42 each.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173401958893?hash=item285f8fe9ed:g:cLYAAOSwjmFbQzgS







anamnesis

Hi Anam,

The reason for my long posting is so I can let others know what is really involved in converting to a 5 speed rather than the hype in advertisements. The work is not difficult but you will need practical / engineering skills and a good tool kit. Some improvisation will be needed.

I can't see how a standard box will fit into the shell. I shortened the gear selection on my box as far as possible and the lever is still 2" further back. Without mods to the Ford box the lever will be much too far to the rear. You do need engineering skills to modify the lever position but modified boxes are included in some kits - at a price.

The worst job so far was removing the lay shaft bearing. Not necessary if you buy a converted box. I eventually made up a "T" shaped tool out of 3/16" rod with the end of the stem bent at 90 deg. I was able to use this like the Scratch and Dent man uses his various massaging tools.

Jan T
J Targosz

Jan, I made my own conversion kit to fit a t9 20+ years ago. The only part I bought in at the time was the bell housing at £165. The whole conversion cost me £220. I modified the box rear extension to move the gear lever position forwards as far as possible at a time before shortened units were commercially available. (in fact I believe a certain company copied my method, I know they were commissioned by someone to make one, using my photos and measurements as a guide) The hole in the transmission tunnel only needing to be moved rearwards by 3/4" The gearlever itself was shortened by simply removing the upper part above the rubber antivibration bush, tapping and fitting the gear knob.

All of the work was done single handed with very basic workshop tools, other than final welding of the alloy extension that I got a college tutor to do for me. At one stage when checking gearbox clearance and mocking up the rear mounting I installed and removed the engine & gearbox 5 times in one day, though I coudnt do that now!
GuyW

I paid a tad more than you Guy. I bought a kit, but sourced the box elsewhere. I think I paid around 500 quid in total. You did really well to do yours at that price.

Plenty of discussion in the archives Jan, on how to diy a t9 box into a Spridget. But you can never have too much of a good thing. lol.

Agreed, you do need 'some' mechanical nouse, but it's picked up as you suck it and see in many cases. Basic tools. When I did mine, I didn't even have any means to weld, not that it needs any to install a T9.

You keep saying the worst job is the layshaft bearing removal. I can only assume you are saying that to illustrate just how wasy it is to rebuild a T9 box, because it isn't hard at all, as I showed earlier.

I might have gone for the shortened remote if it had occurred to me, or if I'd had the means/thought to do it. But at the time 20 years ago, it didn't occur to me. So the answer was shove it in as is. No problem, you just cut a hole behind the existing gear lever hole. It doesn't have to be fancy, you cover it after anyway. But then I'm far more function over form; esp' when it can't be seen. Just as long as it works properly, is good enough for me.

And as much as it can be nice to have originality in terms of appearance, I'm more than used to the altered position of the lever. It comes to hand very nicely. It suits me, so I wouldn't alter it now even if I could simply throw a switch to do it. But that's of course a personal view. No doubt if I sell my Sprite, I'll be told the lever is in the wrong place. LOL.

Perhaps if mine was a frog though, I'd be more perfectionist. Coz they're worth more 🙂.






anamnesis

Couple of photos:
1. High tech equipped workshop needed for shortening the alloy extension.

2. Shortened gear lever position with welding done by friendly college tutor.as a demonstration for local m/c club members





GuyW

3. Repositionng the tranny tunnel hole
4. Very short gearstick! But I liked it like that, with the actual throw being more like pressing a switch!

(I have since modified this again, welding in a 2.75" extension so not as long as standard, but a bit more conventional)





GuyW

Very neat Guy. Nice old Footprint(?) too. Mine's an Eclipse, No.85, circa 1966.

Snap, on the other bit of high tech'. Although I guess it may have been seen to be at the time, by some. Lol.


anamnesis

My point, which I know that you will have got Anam, was people shouldn't be put off from doing these sorts of tasks by thinking that they don't have the necessary expensive equipment. Or, for that matter thinking such work is beyond their own capabilities. All such work can be successfully achieved if you can operate basic hand tools; measuring rule, spanner, screwdriver, hacksaw, file and hammer.

And as for power tools, you've no doubt heard the comment that they are just great for making bigger mistakes, faster! 😂
GuyW

Hi Anam,

The changes to your body shell differ to mine. I had to cut out more of the cross member including the strengthening tubes. I then inserted two very substantial, closed off box sections into the crossmember ends. Through bolts locked these into the cross member stubs. A thick steel plate was then bolted through the reinforced cross member stubs and to the rails on the floor. It is probably more rigin than the original. The only disadvantage is drilling through the plate and box sections. They are very thick.

Jan
J Targosz

I looked at the idea of inserting box sections into the floor cross member. But I discarded that idea as they could only be a maximum of 7", being limited by the space created by cutting out the centre piece. Longer ones couldn't be aligned to insert. I thought that only extending that limited distance inside the box section would create a weak stress point and encourage lateral flexing of the shell.

Instead I made up a replacement cross member which sits under the floor and extends the full width right out to the sills at either side. It. Bolts up through the box section, using welded in tubes so that the box doesn't crush as the fixing bolts are tightened. There is a compromise in that I had to notch (and reinforce) the section at one side to provide clearance around the exhaust pipe.

I later added extension plates at either side of the transmission tunnel as I found my cross member was initially rotating slightly with engine unit movement under heavy braking
GuyW

Must get some new carpet. lol.

Probably the best gear knob in the world; except it's Heineken. LOL.


anamnesis

Guy. " -- power tools, ---- great for making bigger mistakes, faster! No hadn't heard that before, but so true. LOL.

I like your replacement cross member solution Guy, it looks very neat.

Seems to me, there are a number of different ways to alter the chassis for the T9 install, and all end up replacing the strength as was. The 'best' way, is probably the easiest.

Jan, I don't understand why you had to cut "out more of the cross member including the strengthening tubes".

Why? All T9 boxes have the same mount protrusion, and it's only that protrusion that necessitates the cut to the original crossmember.

If the tunnel was taller, you possibly wouldn't need to cut the chassis at all, as that protrusion would just lift over the crossmember.

I've looked at the amount others have cut out, and have never understood why so much is cut out.

The kit I got, also suggested making a big cut, but I ignored it, and cut the bare minimum, leaving the strength tubes, and thus the sealed ends.






anamnesis

Mine too is a plate to join the two cut ends of the crossmember and restore the strength. Btw, why IS it so angry? 😂






anamnesis

Outside the tunnel, two more bolts (one either side) through the crossmember, with strengthening tubes inserted to prevent crushing.

This picture shows the first type of gear box mounting I had. It came in the kit, but I chnaged it to the later/alternate? type, which is better, -- neater.





anamnesis

As it is now with the smaller/later mount.


anamnesis

Anam,

I think you'll find the smaller gearbox mount is that used on the smaller engined RWD Escorts and the like, it's what I used when I fitted a 4 speed box as that's what the box used in the car it came out of. The larger mount was used on the larger engined cars. I found the mount rather soft though and as the mount sat on top of the original cross member it did bang sometimes when the mounting bolt hit the top of the box section on larger bumps.
David Billington

Ah right. Thanks David. Yep that's exactly what I found too. It was too soft. Hence I had to 'buffer' it, to stop it bouncing and letting the gox rotate. The small mount is FAR FAR better. Holds the box very steady.


My speedo adapter.

Originally I came straight out of the box, in through the tunnel, and across the floor. But in 2019 I changed to a right angle adapter, so the speedo cable takes the original route.

Looking down inside the tunnel through the gear lever hole. I made a larger reinforced inspection hatch, to be able to connect/disconnect the cable. Just can't find any way to connect/disconnect it otherwise. No doubt there is a way though.






anamnesis

Anam,

I eventually added some thick rubber sheet between the bolt and cross member and that sorted the knocking.
David Billington

This thread was discussed between 25/08/2023 and 19/09/2023

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.