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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - 5 Speed (Type 9) gearbox / gear lever position

A question for those of you who have fitted 5 speed gearboxes, either as part of an engine conversion (K series etc...) or converted 5 speed A series cars.

Do you have any photos of the new gear lever position?

How far back is it compared to the original gearbox?

Does anyone know of a modification to the Type 9 gearbox to move the lever forward. Such as cutting the tailhousing top half and moving forward - I am considering this but would be interested to hear how everyone feels with the position of the gear lever in their converted cars.

Whilst I am not that tall (6 ft) I appear to have longish arms and legs (34" inside leg) and I have already modded the accelerator pedal along the lines of threads I found in the archives to give more leg room.

Any info / help would be gratefully appreciated

Cheers

Spencer

This is what my accelerator pedal looks like now:







S Deakin

I should fit this later today, but I think it has given me about 40mm more throttle pedal legroom.

I am looking at modding the brake and clutch pedals as well as there will be too large a difference in height between all the pedals otherwise


S Deakin

Spencer,
If you are familiar with a type 9 box you will know that there is a narrower section on the gear selector housing. You can do a "cut and shut" on this, moving the gearlever forward by about 3 3/4" max. This will bring the gearlever nearly back to its normal position in the transmission tunnel.

Here's one I prepared earlier....

Type 9 next to original ribcase. You can see the weld join in the T9 extension, bringing the gearlever forwards to within about 3/4" of the original ribcase position

Guy


Guy Weller

Guy,

Thanks very much, thats perfect.

Were you able to make it all out of the same tailhousing?

Did you make a single horizontal cut to remove the part that the lever fixes to? And then use the selector rod to keep the freshly cut off piece correctly aligned with the tailhousing?

I ask because when I considered doing it before I had toyed with milling the part to be moved forward off completely and then taking another tailhousing and milling the lever mounting bit off that.

Sorry my explanation probably isn't very clear but I wasn't sure if it was possible to cut the gear lever mounting part off without either damaging the main tailhousing or the piece I would need to move - I hope you understand my ramblings

I never cease to be amazed by this BBS, when I was wondering what to do about the lack of legroom I searched the archives on the 'off' chance that it may have been discussed - it had!

And then moments after asking about moving the gear lever on a type 9 I hear from someone who has 'prepared one earlier' and supplies a photo of the mod!

Thanks again Guy
S Deakin

If you go this web page: http://www.the-wizardsden.com/mg_home/mods.htm
it gives very clear pictures of an unmodified type 9 box in a spridget, admittedly it is a 1500 but I believe the lever exits in the same place as the A series vehicles.
As to lever position,I'm 5'11" and I prefer the new position as I seem to remember many years ago frequently banging my hand against the dash in my old frogeye. It also means that you can install a decent centre console for a radio etc.
Graham.
Graham P 1330 Frogeye

Guy,
the new position is awful. I fitted a TVR gear lever which has a step in it, while not the prettiest it is in exactly the right position for me.
Brad
B Richards

Spencer
It was all out of one gearbox. I did the job with hand tools, cutting horizontally and vertically to remove the gear pivot point.
I then reassembled onto the gearbox, using the selector shaft to align the loose piece. I then set it in place with a few blobs of araldite, removed the complete casting again and took it to an alloy welding specialist. There is an oil seal for the selector shaft which limits how much it can be shortened by and also has to be removed to stop it melting whilst welding.

I use a very short stubby gearlever, made out of the lower portion of the original sierra one as you can see in the earlier photo. Selection is very precise with a short throw lever. Actually it is maybe too short, I keep planning to weld another 1" or so on, but that is one of "those" jobs for when I get a round tuit.

Guy
PS I have other photos and a text description. But it seems that too many photos here slows up the system let me know your e-mail address and I will send more detail.
nameDOTnameATtiscaliDOTcoDOTuk


Guy Weller

that should be gear LEVER pivot point!
Guy Weller

Looks like you can get them done by FL now. I can't see they list them separately but it would seem to add about £60 to a gearbox judging from the pricelist. I don't know how much they shorten them by but I saw a stack of the tail sections down the engineering works that does them for Fl a few months back.
David Billington

If you shorten the lever, you still end up having to change gear with your elbow between the seats.
Brad
B Richards

Brad,

Not sure if your last post was referring to mine but I should have been clearer in mentioning in my post that I was referring to FL producing extension housings with the gearlever position moved forward.
David Billington

B Richards wrote:

"Guy,
the new position is awful. I fitted a TVR gear lever which has a step in it, while not the prettiest it is in exactly the right position for me.
Brad"

Brad,

Which position is awful, are you referring to the position that a type 9 gear lever ends up in?

Graham,

Cheers, I will take a look

I used to hit my stereo when selecting first gear in my first midget, so I guess a little further back (20mm or so) would be a possible solution. To be fair I probably won't fit a stereo as I am not sure I will be able to hear it!! - Maybe my ears aren't as good as they were 20 years ago or I am too used to modern cars?

Guy,

I will send you an email, thanks for the offer.

I was planning on finally rebuilding my type 9 next week, so I guess it makes sense to modify it now whilst its all apart. It sounds like I wont be able to make it too short so I don't have to worry about a trial fit in the car first?

Cheers

Spencer



S Deakin

David,

it's clearer now you mentioned the extension housing & i re-read the post.
FL really needed to do something as the T9 gearlever ends up a fair bit back, like i mentioned before early TVR's also used the T9, to make the gear stick end up in the right place they chopped the gearstick in half & added a 1" horizontal bar, about 3" long. I got one for nothing off a mate, fitted it & it's just right for my lanky arms.
So you could do the same for about 50p, which is a lot cheaper than FL & use the change to buy beer with :-)

cheers
Brad
B Richards

FrontLine Spridget do a shortened remote extension for the type 9 gearbox which brings the lever out of the tunnel just about at the same position as the original Spridget box. However, when I spoke to Tim Fenna about this in the summer he said that they would only supply the shortened remote combined with one of their gearboxes. In otherwords they would not supply them separately for owners to do it themselves.

Chris
Chris Hale

I find the T9 stick position very comfortable. My IOW Frog however has a quite high and flat padded tunnel so it's just a big armrest with the stick falling neatly to hand. Not very helpful for normal spridget owners perhaps but I wouldn't just assume that the T9 position will not be ok. I'd be inclined to try one if you can before hacking the box about.


Jordan Gibson

I have two Sprites with type 9 gearboxes. One has the modified (shortened remote) the other does not. Individual taste but I need not have shortened the remote as the normal one is comfortable. I am 6'03".
If shortening the remote beware an oil seal forward of where the welding has to be done and the rear bearing which can both suffer from the heat. If heat does affect the rear bearing shop around as some placse charge extortionate rates for this supposedly rare bearing. It is a very thin, split, bearing which is easily pushed in at home without workshop apparatus.
Alan Anstead

I like the shortened gear lever position on my T9. But it is really just a question of choice. There is no right or wrong. I am sure one very quickly adapts to wherever the gearstick emerges!

When I did mine I hadn't seen any other T9 installation. I did the shortening modification as my own idea in about Dec 2000 as a DIY project. It didn't cost me anything to do as even the specialist welding was done for free. Originally I was quoted £20, but in the event he did it as a demonstration at an evening class he was running.

I know of several who have copied "my" idea with information supplied by me. I don't know if the recent FL one does it in the same fashion, but it is a fairly obvious proceedure. Being me, I doubt if I would have paid £60 for a FL version, had it been available.

Guy
Guy Weller

I am very happy with the "natural" position of my type 9 gearstick
Falls exactly to hand, doesn't make me hit the stereo and I can change tapes (when I had the CD in I could change them too)

I hadnt fitted the thin vinyl cover over the base when this was taken




Bill

Yours seems ok Bill, when i fitted my T9 i couldn't change gear unless my elbow way exactly midway between the seats, hence the TVR mod to solve the problem.
I don't have a radio, but spent the extra money on engine mods :-) much better sound track in my opinion.
Brad
B Richards

With a forward T9 gearlever position and my very short gear stick there is no risk of hitting the radio and CD can be changed with no problems.

I also made up a padded cubby box on top of the tunnel which is handy for odds and ends and doubles as an arm rest at just the right height for the gear lever.

Guy
Guy Weller

A while back I asked if a propshaft for an A-Series+T9 was the same as a K-Series+T9 and was told they were diff lengths. Which I assume must mean the gearbox mounting (and hence gear lever) is different for the 2 installs.

I cant remember which propshaft was longer ... and hence which one would have the gear lever further forward.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Thanks for the info,

Looking on Anthony Cutlers website I noticed a photo of Paul Walbran's (K Midget?) which was to show some bulkhead stiffening but it shows what looks like a std gear lever position - does anyone know if this is typical for a type 9 / K series as it seems much further forward than the photo

James Mather's gear lever looks much further back but I guess this conversion is not typical being a 1500cc and a home made adapter / bellhousing





S Deakin

James Mather's:




S Deakin

This is my shortened one, same view as James Mather's for comparison. I still had to move the hole rearwards on the tunnel by about 3/4" to provide clearance for the turret although the gear lever remains in about the right place.

Guy


Guy Weller

I think all bases have been covered but you might find something useful here...

http://www.tooke.org.uk/convert.htm

Bob T

You can see with mine that when I take my hand off the wheel the gear lever is right "there" where it falls.

So much easier, shame Austin, Morris, Riley, Wolseley VDP(oh yes and MG) didnt have an in house 5 speeder at the time.

Is the SD1/LDV box very large? anyone know?

The picture included Rory in case Prop needed another "Dog In Car" shot
Bill

Bill,

<<Is the SD1/LDV box very large? anyone know?>>

IIRC it's quite large, significantly larger than a T9.

Regarding 5 speeds there were a few 5 speed A series boxes done as specials for racing. I was told they had more in common with the B series box. I don't know what parts or changes were made.
David Billington

Thanks David

back in the early nineties when I was looking at the rebuild of Lara I remember thinking of looking it up but never got around to it.

(Dont think I'll bother now then :-) )

Bill

mine ended up really far forward! Its the shortened remote and modified cranked leaver from Frontline. It looks weird, but I actually like it here. This is in neutral! In first, it sits under the dash.
(Excuse the cockpit mess, I took this in the garage while it was being fitted!)




Mallorcaben

I know this is not quite on thread with actual lever positioning but this is by far the best quickshift adaption I have found yet and has saved so many skinned knuckles!!!

http://www.hometown.aol.com/dvandrews/quick.htm

I recommend this to anyone with a type 9!
D Prince

Hope this helps, shifter moved back almost 6".
http://picasaweb.google.com/BudsBritishGarage/Midget5SpeedConversion#

Bud
Bud K

This is my TVR gear lever,
Brad


B Richards

Guy,

I was very close to cutting my Type 9 up last night (then bottled it!)

In one of your posts you say you shortened it by 3 3/4" ?

I was measuring mine last night, specifically the length of the 'tubular' region - i.e. the piece you made your first vertical hacksaw cut through.

On my box the 'tubular' region is only about 70mm long and I think I would need to cut it shorter than 70mm as there is a 'D.U.' (Plain bush) in the rearmost region where you have left the 'tubular' region intact?

So I would guess I could shorten mine by 60mm ish - am I missing something or maybe different tailhousings?

Cheers

Spencer
S Deakin

Spencer - I got BGH to make mine - http://tinyurl.com/33dozd
Toby Anscombe

Hi Spencer,
My apologies, just being careless with my memory! I have just checked on my spare gearbox. I reckon I could probably remove up to about 3 1/2" (90mm)max. But certainly 3 1/4" (83mm) safely on that one. And I think they are all the same. I remember I cut out a slightly shorter section first so that I could then determine exactly how much more I had to go at whilst still leaving enough housing for the seal on the selector shaft. Then I cut off a little more. Going to all that trouble I wanted to maximise how much I could remove.
As mentioned before, I wrote up some notes on this (for Nick) If you want a copy send me your e-mail address.

Guy
nameDOTnameATtiscaliDOTcoDOTuk

Guy Weller

Toby,
I think I am right in claiming credit for supplying you with the photos of my selector housing modification for passing on to BGH for that work.

Guy
Guy Weller

Thanks again for the replies,

Toby,

Thanks for the link to the photos, very useful.

I am just trying to figure out what engine / bellhousing / type 9 version people are using for the photos that I have been given / found. So that I can try and correlate lever positions with car details.

There are two types of Type 9, one requires a 150mm long bellhousing and the other 170mm in order to accomodate different input shaft lengths.

I have the 170mm version but shortened the input shaft to the same length as that in the 150mm version - I did this specifically to save the 20mm difference for the same reason as shortening the tailhousing. So I could use the shorter bellhousing.

I am therefore trying to 'populate' the following list (I have guessed Guy's details as an example)

Guy Weller - A series - V6 'longer' type 9 - FL bellhousing
Graham P -
Brad Richards -
Jordan Gibson -
Alan Anstead -
Bill -
Mallorcaben -
Toby Anscombe -

Cheers

S Deakin

Guy - yes! I take no credit at all other than the ability to say 'I want *that* one' in a Little Britain-esq voice....

Spence - Because mine was made from scratch I went for the shorter input shaft; I dont have the standard ratios either...

The bell housing is straight from Tim at Frontline.


HTH - I will take some photos of where it pops up tomorrow - I've got the car in bits anyhow ;-)
Toby Anscombe

Mallorcaben,

I had my gearlever in the same position as yours. If you have the shortened gearbox, FL perhaps send you the wrong lever, mine turned out to be the wrong lever too. Shifting could cause braking the glass of your gauches. I bend it back to a more normal position (vice and big pipe) and now it's ok.
Rolf

Sorry Toby, I wasn't grumpily meaning that you were taking credit, but I thought perhaps BGH were!

Guy
Guy Weller

dont believe him Toby he was 'avin' a goo


:->

Mine standard 1800 type sierra so short type input shaft

No choices asked for or given at Morris Minor Centre when I bought the bellhousing, I hadnt even wondered about it til later

you can see that the shaft just failed to be as long as the depth of the casting by a "tad" and the MMC spigot bearing is fitted to the flywheel rather than in the end of the crank like the BMC one was.

hth with your plotting...




Bill

Can't offer any detailed specs for mine I'm afraid. The whole kit including recon gearbox was supplied by Frontline and fitted by the previous owner.
Jordan Gibson

So I wielded the hacksaw, mainly to try and establish where the rear ‘D.U.’ bush (which the selector rod runs in) and the seal were located.

The first photo shows the 60mm section which has been ‘removed’, the D.U. bush is about 3mm inboard of this (i.e. this is the gear lever side of the removed section.)

The seal is a similar amount forward of the removed section. This means I could grab a few extra millimetres by cutting right up to the D.U. bush and the seal but this would yield about 65mm maximum and risk distorting the machined regions in which the bush and seal are seated.

Guy / Toby,

Are your DU bushes and seal still present in there original positions?

Cheers

Spencer



S Deakin

This shows the seal


S Deakin

This shows the 'D.U.' bush

As you can see both are very close to the 60mm removed section


S Deakin

Sorry Spence, I dont know...

Call Brian or Chris - 01580 714114

http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/index.html
Toby Anscombe

Toby,

Cheers, I have just spoke to BGH

They say the maximum they can shorten a tailhousing is 2 3/4" (70mm)In which case the seal and the D.U. are literally hard against each other. In fact they say that they shorten the D.U. bush slightly to achieve this length.

They charge an additional £150 for the 'shortening' service and it is only available as part of a supplied recon box.

So at least this stacks up with my measurements / tailhousing.

Next step is to cut the gear lever section off!

Spencer

S Deakin

Well they have both parted company now





S Deakin

And the lever mounting piece

It will hopefully end up about 65mm shorter

Thanks to everyone for the feedback






S Deakin

Spencer,
Without removing and dismantling my gearbox, I cannot now be certain. I do know that I retained the oil seal within the conical part of the casting. But looking at my own photos I think I must have done away with the guide bush just forward of the "turret". That is the D.U. bush (what does D U stand for anyway?

I shortened the thing by something like 85 - 90mm. Unless there are differences in the casings it would seem that mine is relying on the selector shaft being supported sufficiently in the CI part of the box, plus some locating support given by the oil seal.


What I do know is mine works, and has worked for several years and for many 1000's of miles.

Guy


Guy Weller

Guy,

Yes, I think there must be different tailhousings then

If you look at the photo you attached, the vertical rib which is part of the 'main' casing. On my casing this is 60mm from the rear face of the tail housing and my gear lever 'part' is a further 5 - 10mm further forward of this.

A D.U. bush is simply a plain type bush with a PTFE lining (amongst other coatings) they are usually very thin - less than 1mm wall thickness. Used extensively for 'linear' applications.

Thanks again as the photos gave me the required "get on with it!" to cut my casing up instead of just thinking about it

Spencer
S Deakin

Spencer,
No, I was saying UNLESS there are different casings (and I think this is unlikely) I now believe I must have done away with the D U bush. But mine still works fine without it.

From this I would conclude that you can shorten them by 70mm whilst retaining the DU bush. Or do away with it and shorten by about 90mm, which is what I have done.

Guy
Guy Weller

I didn't realise until this thread that the gearboxes came in different lengths, i suppose i must have the longer type hence the gearstick ending up too far back & the use of a TVR gearstick to move it forward again.
I would imagine modifying the gearstick is a whole lot easier than chopping gearboxes about.
cheers
Brad
B Richards

I've got the tailhousing welded up now, it moves the gear lever forward 65mm





S Deakin

Nice job Spencer!

Guy, doesnt your tail end of your fordbox looks different then Spencer's?
Mine looks the same(exept for the shortend stuff) as the one Spencer has.
Arie de Best

Arie,

It's the other side of the box but also IIRC from the BGH Geartech article there is an early and late style extension housing with some differences in the ribbing.
David Billington

This thread was discussed between 11/10/2008 and 21/10/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.