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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Advice needed

Hi,

I need some help and was hoping that someone could clarify how the rear bulk head, inner sill, wheel arch and b-post all come together. If someone has some photos that would be brilliant.

I have attached a photo showing the area that I am going to repair and I need to make up a bespoke section. There was so much rust damage that I have no template to go on and the other side is just as damaged.

So I have the B-post wing repair to finish the outer arch, but it is the inner arch shown within the red lines that needs replacing. There is a flange that will attach to the rear bulk head, but I don't know how long it is or where the inner wheel arch finishes.

Any help would be very welcome

Kind regards

James Paul

http://1965mgmidgetrestoration.blogspot.co.uk/

James Paul

If I am correct from the picture taken below of another project there could be a reinforcement part that I need to buy to attach all these together

James Paul

There is a filler/closing-plate which fits at the end of the inner sill.
Dave O'Neill2

Hi James,

I've been looking around your website (tried to comment but couldn't log in to Wordpress for some reason)and it's great to see all the work you're doing. You've certainly taken on a massive job. Very frustrating too when both sides of the car are very rusty; not easy to find reliable datum points and places from which to measure new parts.

Best of luck with it all. I have a few pics of my Midget project at http://www.nagara.co.uk but perhaps not of the sections you need to look at!

Nick
N.C. Nakorn

Hi Dave,

thanks for confirming that, I'll pop down the shops and get that.

Hi Nick,

Thanks for reading the blog, I did come across some photos on your project last night on google images. The repairs that you have done on your wheel arch is exactly the same as I have to sort out. So good to see the finished work.

Don't suppose you still have the cardboard templates!!!

I'll add your blog to my 'readers projects' if you like!

Many thanks for the advice.

James
James Paul

Slight confusion here as it is a bit of a jig-saw puzzle. The infill panel fits into the recess at the rear of the outer sill. As in your second photo. The red box on your first photo is above that bit, and above the sill to rear wing joint.

The inner wheel arch curves down at the front and is formed of an inner and an outer section. At the front the inner section is welded to a downward facing flange of the floor panel, forming a drip curtain curving round toward the rear bulkhead panel. At its outer end the rear bulkhead is welded to a vertical flange on the rear end of the inner sill. The outer section of the inner wheel arch then comes down as far as the bottom of the wing section, forming a nasty little rust trap in the corner. Worth plugging this with seam sealer later on when you get to that stage.

The infill pieces can only be added later, after the outer sill is fixed and go below the end of the wing panel, fitting in to close off the gap between the bulkhead and the outer sill. Moss supplies them, or they are easy to make out of scrap as they are quite small.
Guy W

I made those sill infill pieces. Photo attached. These are different from the bought ones as I am fitting them differently, to try and reduce the rust trap. The lighter rectangle with the plug-weld holes in it should normally be bent forwards (upwards in the photo) in the same direction as the other flanges.

The rear corners of the sill are prone to rusting through from the inside. I think it is because the standard infill piece is fitted in such a way that there are two metal surfaces in close contact. These draw moisture in between the surfaces (capillary action) and there is probably a degree of vibration between the metal causing any (minimal) surface treatment to be continually abraided exposing bright steel to the rust devils.

So I have made these "inside out" such that when fitted instead of creating a recess, they will form a mini box section, still closing the sill off but not creating the the two metal surfaces in close contact. Its an experiment, the idea sparked by another BBS'r some while ago.

Guy W

Hi Guy,

I was kind of hoping that you would reply. Thanks for the great description.

I did guess that the outer section of the inner wheel arch stopped at the bottom of the wing section.

I was also hoping someone had a photo of how it should look.

I'll have a think about the infills, seems like a good idea.

Many thanks

James
James Paul

James,

On that second photo of yours, there appears to be a second infill piece directly above the box that you have added A sort of tapered down fillet. I don't know if that is an addition, or how it is supposed to be. It isn't like that on either of my current cars and I don't remember now quite how it was finished off on my earlier cars. It may be on the end of the outer section of the inner wheel arch. or it may be a separate piece? My inner wheel arch ends in a step at that point, level, or just below the top of the rear bulkhead panel and that is the little rust trap that I mentioned. The blue car you have photographed looks like a much better solution. Although it still has the lower infill panel forming the rust-inducing construction!

This sort of detailing depends on whether you are after originality. Reconstructing it the way it was "supposed" to be. Or if you prefer to make minor adjustments and modifications to things to perhaps reduce the potential for rusting. I favour the latter approach and it is easier anyway if you have nothing left of the original to go on!
Guy W

Hi Guy,

The photo is from Pete in Canada's Bug-eye project, would that explain the difference?

I agree with modification where you cannot see the change in terms of overall presentation.


James Paul

Hi James,

Recently been through this process on one side of my shell and in the middle of doing it on the other. I can get a few pictures of how I tied everything together tonight.

Might not be correct mind... but it looked sensible to me!

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

James,
Peter in Canada is generally pretty true to original so his would be right. On my cars there was nothing left of that detail so I just made it up.
Guy W

Hi Malcolm,

That would be very kind if you could.

I am fairly sure what I need to do but some clarification would be most welcome!

Many thanks guys, brilliant as always

James
James Paul

Hi James,

Turns out I don't really have any useful pictures because I have been a bit lazy with my picture taking of late.

If it isn't urgent I can get some pics on Saturday morning for you.

Sorry,
Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Hi Malcolm,

Please don't go to any effort, I am sure I will be able to work it out. Thanks for all your help!

Kind regards

James
James Paul

Hi James, sorted some pictures, will upload them now whilst I sit in front of the GP quali. No effort at all.

Hang tight...

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Repair I made to the bulkhead without the wheel arch section in...

M Le Chevalier

Wheel arch and outer sill installed (you obviously want to do some tidier plug welds than I managed :-D)

M Le Chevalier

This is the sill end bit...

M Le Chevalier

And the end bit in place... note, there is a bit of a hole at the bottom I am going to have to fill some how, because I didn't made the bulkhead repair patch big enough!

M Le Chevalier

You may find help in Lindsey Porter's
Guide to Purchase & DIY Restoration
of the
Midget And Sprite
ISBN 0-85429-336-1

Found a used one under ten bucks on Amazon
Bob Ketcham

James,
I mentioned earlier that I fit a modified version of the sill closing pieces to, hopefully, reduce the likelihood of rusting. I think rust forms where the sill closing piece is in close proximity to the inside surface of the outer sill, where vibration causes chafing and exposure of bare steel, and the capillary action draws water in between the surfaces to cause them to rust.

Attached sketch depicts a horizontal section through the sill and the red line shows where I think rusting starts. Refold the part of the fill piece that attaches to the rear bulkhead through 180 degrees. Swap them side to side and then they will close off the sill end, whilst still allowing air to circulate inside the end of the box section. One can do the same at the front closing piece by the front wheel well in the same fashion.

Guy W

Nice diagram Guy! :-)

Malc.
M Le Chevalier

Malc, I think you are pulling my leg! Well,I know what I was trying to show, even if no-one else does!! ;-)
Guy W

These might be of interest - Heritage Visit pics.
I've shown two of a stack of wings/cills so hopefully the pics make more sense.

R.

richard boobier

Inner cills

richard boobier

Rear Bulkhead

richard boobier

Inner cill body.

richard boobier

No leg pulling at all, I love a good paint diagram. You would be surprised how useful paint is in an engineering design office! :-D

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Opp's

second pic should of course be outer cill !
richard boobier

Hi Guys,

Sorry been a week from hell at work and only just seen all these posts.

Thank you so very much!

Kind regards

James
James Paul

This thread was discussed between 20/11/2013 and 29/11/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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