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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Alloy fuel tanks

Has anyone (probably the Konversion guys) got any details on Tims alloy tank?

Given that I will need to plumb a return, swirlpot and high pressure fuel pump for the injection system I might as well see what else is out there before going off on my own....
Toby Anscombe

I've got one, it comes with two fittings, which would be outlet & return for the K lads.
I know the picture looks like a quick paint job, but its actually anodised black.
Brad


B Richards

Go on then, how much?
Toby Anscombe

Not for sale mate, it's on the car,
cheers
Brad
B Richards

I meant from Tim! I cant find a price listed...

I have pinged him an email though..
Toby Anscombe

Toby, If you would like a 'bespoke' tank making, please get in touch, I have a good friend that makes such things.

http://www.nor-mal.com/

I'm sure it will at least look better thank Tims effort...

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

Mark,

thanks for your accurate observations.

As you may know anodising Ali, shows up the slightest flaw in the finish, i did spend a considerable amount of time finishing of the sides & bottom of the tank, but didn't bother with the top at all & only a quick buff over at the end with the connections.
It actually looks a lot better than that picture suggests.
The tank from FL would probably be OK for most people as it's plain Ali finish & that seems to hide a lot of the scuffs, maybe due to the dazzle factor.

Also FYI you can anodise in any BS colour, so you can match to the colour of the car as long as you pay for a batch of chemicals, expensive though. Black is a standard colour & the cheapest.

cheers
Brad
B Richards

I guess that all I am after is a repo of the original tank with BSP/JIC fittings for a feed and a return..

I could put a return into the filler neck as that can be brazed without it going bang - thats the cheap option...


I'm off to see a couple of mini guys today and one of them has managed to just fit an external swirl pot - LP pump to swirl pot and HP pump to engine bay but most mini people just use the SPI/MPI tank which is not an option for me!

BobT - I cant remember what you did for your efi setup.....
Toby Anscombe

Ali Frontline fueltank on my car:


Arie de Best

And eventhough Frontline has a build in swirllpot(which is suppose to be not 100%working when fuel is low and doing corners...) I also have an external one with its own fuelpump, see image:


Arie de Best

Bosch filter and high pressure fuelpump take over from the swirlpot:


Arie de Best

Arie,

thats why i got mine anodised, i've a black car & it doesn't stand out so much as the natural ali finish.
Brad
B Richards

I got a nice Stainless Steel one from fle bay about 150, built in swirl pot etc.

Regards,

Howie
Howard Wright

So, what are the capacities of these tanks?
David "thirsty joe" Lieb
David Lieb

Tim no longer sells them ;-(


Back to plan b - volvo external pump and no return...
Toby Anscombe

Watch out over there! Toby has hit the pump of no return...
David "got my coat" Lieb
David Lieb

Howard, any idea where other than fle bay the stainless tank originated?
Paul (MkI

Howard --- photos-- ebay item link??!!
Mick - The engine is in!

David, capacity of these tanks are 9 or 9.5 gallons.
Toby, Tim doesnt sell them anymore?
Then give Boldry a call as he knows somebody who can make stuff like that.

Because of my heavy right foot I am very pleased with the bigger capacity fueltank.
Arie de Best

toby mentioned a swirl pot where the LP return connects to it directly. Be careful with this. I did it in a kit car a few years ago and on a hot day in traffic the car stalled due to fuel evaporation. The pump was heating the fuel, sending it on a circuit of the nice warm engine bay, putting it back straight into the swirl pot and off it went again, thereby getting hotter and hotter until it evaporated in the lines. The solution was to direct the return into the body of the tank so the fuel is mixed with the bulk, but also point the return pipe towards the swirl pot so that when the tank is almost empty the returned fuel still gets to the swirl pot pretty quickly to prevent starvation. Perhaps a fuel cooler in the return line is the best answer.

Ant
Ant Allen

Interesting Ant, that was my plan for my swirl pot :(

what temp do you get fuel evaporation?
Will Munns

I _think_ you're likely to get into trouble at about 60 degrees C. The boiling point drops with higher pressure and it's in the high pressure circuit.

When it happened to me it was the very hot summer of 2003, hottest day on record in the UK, the air temp was just off 40 deg C and I was on the M6 in a 5 mile tailback in the baking sun. The car kept stalling and refusing to restart. I turned it off, sat on the hard shoulder, waited a few minutes, and then it always restarted. My return line was tee'd into a small swirl pot bowl directly under the tank, and the fuel pipes around the pump and engine bay were too hot to touch.

Ant
Ant Allen

Boy do I remember that day. My wife and I were travelling to folkestone in my MGA to get the eurotunnel over to france. With the hood down I was hotter than the water in my radiator. I also remember that when queing in traffic my MGA was misfiring a little as the fuel in my weber evapourated a bit. Since then I installed an electic fan just for that kind of situation, just hasn't been as hot since to test it!

Just a small point I thought the boiling point of liquids were raised with pressure!
Bob (Robert) Midget Turbo

had this one made, filled with black foam, no pot required


Alex Sturgeon

and allowed me to fit the exhaust straight though


Alex Sturgeon

I was going to make my own tank and that would be easier with a drawing of an existing design. Would FL let me have their drawing do you think? or Alex have you got the drawing of the tank you made?
Bob (Robert) Midget Turbo

Excuse my ignorance but what is 'swirl pot' and what is its function?
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Hi Alex,

would that be a RTL lurking next to your tank? i don't know if i have enogh room for one now i've a FL tank, any chance of another view,
thanks
Brad
B Richards

Brad, a RTL can fit easely infront of a Frontline fueltank because i have both on mine.
Image:
(sorry for poor shot, next time under the car ill try to get a better angle photo)



I still cant understand why Frontline doesnt sell them anymore?
Even without the K i would still want one because when traveling with friends in their B's and C i was always the first to run out of fuel.


Arie de Best

Thanks Aire,
i fitted mine for the same reason, ran out of fuel on the A1 on a wintery Sunday night, all the petrol stations were closed & i even used up my spare gallon in the boot.
Not a good experiance, black car, dark night, no hard shoulder, no hazzards. First thing i did the next day when i eventually got home was phone Tim for a bigger tank.
Brad
B Richards

chris - a swirl pot is a min-tank (can be external or internal) which holds a little (say 1l) of fuel for injection systems as they need a constant supply at a high pressure so very prone to starvation.

Toby Anscombe

Brad, little warning tho: even a big tank can run empty ;-)

I have ran out of fuel too with the old tank when i got back from the UK on a sunday eve 23.00hr somewhere in France...
Costed me a small fortune when the French police called a local garage to bring me fuel... :(
Now i even have a 5ltr spare can with me despite the bigger tank, needles to say i never realy had to use it now i have it with me...
Arie de Best

Aire,
i carry a spare gallon in the boot as well. It's much cheaper than a tow truck.
Brad
B Richards

Spare gallon always in mine too. But then with a 160 mile range I'd be mad not to have one...

How much are these Nor-mal tanks anyway?
Jordan Gibson

Chris

With the org. tank that's just a big empty hole until you fill it up with fuel, once it gets somewhere near empty the fuel starts to move from one side to the other when having it a bit round the bends leaving the pump to suck air, which is fine at 7ish psi and carbs because the system has an inbuilt swirl pot namely the bowl and float and the little bit of air that does get in to the pump is replaced with fuel and the engine still has a supply of fuel due to the reserve of fuel in the bowl. On common rail injection systems that needs a a full 55psi (some are lower and some higher) charged system to get the injectors to fire ( i think more dump fuel) a second of air in the system will give a few seconds of misfire and maybe loss of control of the car. A swirl pot replaces the carb bowl by allowing any air to be retuned to the tank and not in to the rail system. You can on injection systems do away with a swirl pot by having a well baffled or foamed filled tank but a swirl pot works out to be the cheaper option and is why it is used on most systems in cars today. You can also get the same with oil sumps on high cornering or high braking when the oil moves from side to side or to the back leaving the oil pickup sucking air
Alex Sturgeon

Arie,

could you drop me an email, theres a couple of things i would like to ask you,
brad_r at fastmail dot fm

thanks
B
B Richards

Jordan, Give Chris at Nor-Mal a call, tell him I recommended him and he should be able to work a price out... If he needs a pattern tank, I can drop one off for him to work from.

These Big fuel tanks seem to loose ground clearance especially when you also lower the cars, were you aware that some of the 'Works' Spridgets ran two fuel tanks....? One inverted upon the other and welded together, making one large tank, the only pitfall was the loss of boot space.

Sorry about the poor clarity on the pic

Mark.


Mark T. Boldry

Alex - thanks for the explanation that was very clear. Chris
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Chris, one thing that hasn't been mentioned.

Swirl pots work by spinning the liquid, so liquid is fed in at an angle and this creates the swirl, the swirling fluid means that any air bubbles are rapidly pushed to the middle and settle out, from where the air can be removed back to the tank.

It is perhaps arguable weather what is being talked about by most people here amounts to a swirl pot, the fuel doesn't move that fast in an engine, and petrol doesn't hold onto air bubbles like water does.
Will Munns

I'd be interested in the design and price of an ally tank, esp if some kind of swirl-pot (or anti-starvation system) could be designed into it.

A
Anthony Cutler

Ditto Anthony's comment.

Need a tank for my K-series Sprite.

Cheers
P R Clark

Brad, you have mail.
Arie de Best

I need a fuel tank sensor that works in the opposite direction to the standard Spridget item and fits into a spridget tank aperture.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Daniel,

i may be a mile out here, but the sensor would probably be a potentiometer, if you could take it apart & put the feed wire on the other end of the pot, leaving the slider connection in place, then that would be your 'empty' when 'full' sensor.

Brad
B Richards

If, as "they say" the earlier cars had fuel gauges that read full when empty and empty when full due to a change of operation and the use of voltage stabilisers, isnt there a chance the job has already been done by Smiths Instruments in the past.

If it's for an early car to upgrade to "later" type or Vicky Verkky ebay must be a possibility

So Daniel, what's the plan?

I may even have a suitable type hanging around if I can find some numbers of relevance. Tomorrow I'll have a delve for you
Bill

He's off to Australia.
B Richards

hmmm

gee I never thunk of that as a persibbility!

:-0
Bill

Guys, Still looking for the name of the vendor will post ASAP.

Regards,

Howie.
Howard Wright

OK! at last the company is Design & Fabrication run by tolly10060 (e-bay name) from my drawing showing swirlpot & baffels his name is Paul phone number 07716089806,

Regards,

Howie.
Comes complete with senderect.
Howard Wright

Bill, & B Richards,

Electrickery is not my strongest subject.

I want a late model sender (the type that is held by a retaining device rather than screwed in) to read the opposite to normal.

So, when connected to a standard Smiths gauge it reads backs to front.

I'll gladly trade my very old screw in sender that I removed many years ago and should still work for a late type that can read backwards.

Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

daniel,

this will explain it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer

by moving the feed wire to the other side you are reading the opposite leg of the pot, which should be what your after.

Brad
B Richards

Update on Alloy Tanks......

I saw Chris from Nor-Mal yesterday and discussed this with him. It may be possible that I will have a batch made and should be able to incorperate a swirl pot into the design, they can be baffled only, or foam filled too. I'll report more as things develop, I may need some FIRM orders if I go ahead....

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

Keep me posted....cost permitting!
Toby Anscombe

Ditto
P R Clark

I'm a bit concerned about the loss of ground clearance as my frog is dragging it's ar*e like a dog with an itchy bum as it is. I can only just get my trolley jack to the diff under the stock tank. I've been toying with the idea of raising the back a little anyway but at the rate I get round to things it might be a while (the memories of wrestling the axle and flexirides off and on in the confines of my garage last time still bring me out in a cold sweat...)

'Scuse my ignorance but is foam filling street legal? And can the ally be painted?
Jordan Gibson

Daniel, my fuel gauge has worked backwards for 25 years now, it's part of the cars character, I don't think I would change it if I could now.
Paul (MkI

Jordan,
thats normal & part of the charm, i have to jack my car up first with a scissor jack, to get enough clearance for the trolley jack.
Brad
B Richards

of interest?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STAINLESS-MG-midget-STYLUSS-FUEL-TANK-660x300x200_W0QQitemZ320313176933QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
David Smith

I'm dropping a fuel tank off with Chris (Nor-Mal) later today, he will work out some pricing for various options and I'll post back here.

Jordan, foam fillinmg is perfectly 'street legal'.

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

Btw, not having officialy checked but the Frontline tank isnt loosing ground clearance as its the same depth as the original tank.
What theyve done is use the extra space(10-15cm) between the end of the bottom of the car to the end of the original fueltank and fill that gap up with extra tank capacity.
The tank fits on the excisting tankbolts.

On the image you can see the last part of the tank not being flat but going up towards the bottomend.


Arie de Best

I agree with Arie, the tank isn't a problem with clearance, the exhaust is though,

Brad
B Richards

The secret of a successful lowering is keeping the pipe to around 1" of the floor, and not having any exhaust clamps that catch on the ground and rip the sysetm off.

BRB tends to glide its enhaust along objects sitting up from the raod surface when a passenger of distinguished girth is present; no damage, though.

BTW - the extra capacity is what's needed; a tank extended to the rear and kicking up is more desirable than a tank that copies the original.

A
Anthony Cutler

As I understand it with an external swirl pot it is usually kept full by the low pressure pump. The high presure pump draws down the fuel from the swirl pot and therefore always has a constant supply. If a swirl pot is built into the alloy tank how is it topped up? Is a low pump still required or is the built in swirl pot essential just a baffle device to prevent the fuel sloshing around and starving the fuel injection pump of a constant supply?
P R Clark

As I understand it (lovely phrase, I must patent it :-) ) the swirl pot in most "moderns" consists of a moulded plastic shape which has mesh walls that have milliards of tiny holes so that fuel can "filter in" from the outer tank but with a small enough mesh to keep the pot topped up when the return fuel gets back to the tank from the HP rail return.

The mesh effect has a drawback with moderns in that the owner, if running out of petrol/gas, may have to top up with more than one "gallon can" to begin to fill the pot when empty. The slosh efect is missing unless the car is in motion, thus the car cannot restart by relying on returned scavenged fuel, because the pot has run empty and nothing is being delivered.

So the second can is needed to overcome the swirlpot's basic emptinesss til in use

I often had to go to "Run out of petrol's" and advise a second can-full to obtain the restart.

Usually to the relief of an owner who had begun to think they'd really broken it...

As to a second pump, interesting

My Saab (9000) comes in two flavours, one has two pumps bult in, an LP and an HP pump, but mine relies quite happily on just the one, inset in the top of the tank aperture.

I really dont know which system would be most reliable though

expert wanted?
Bill

The e-bay link from David Smith is were mine came from nice piece of work.

Howie.
Howard Wright

The last time it got ripped off was at the MOT station when it was driven on to the rollers for the rear brake test, you should have seen the MOT mans face, priceless :-)

Fuel tank was fine though.
Brad
B Richards

Mark - any update?
Toby Anscombe

Just waiting for Chris to get back to me, I have left a message of reminder on his answer machine just now...

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

Going back a few weeks to a thread on ready made tanks to suit injection systems

e bay Item number: 320313176933
Alex Sturgeon

Hi Mark

Can you please keep me informed on progress as I would be intrested in one

Thanks

Michael
Michael Weeks

This thread was discussed between 19/10/2008 and 31/10/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.