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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Another Clutch Query

I have had a long-running issue with my clutch dragging. Everything in the system has been changed and it has been bled as thoroughly as I know how using every permutation of bleeding technique described on this forum.

Before I took the engine out for a rebuild the clutch was actually the best it has been in ages but still with a slight but annoying drag when engaging reverse and first (if done direct from neutral, not via 2nd).

Two queries: The master cylinder was new late last year. There is approximately 1/4" of travel on the cylinder push rod before pressure can be felt. Is that normal?

Initially, when fitting the clevis pin into the slave cylinder push rod, the pin and the yoke are between 1/4" and 1/2" out of alignment. I have to push hard against the pressure of the return spring and hydraulics to get them to line up so the pin will go in. Is that normal?

Sorry for bringing up my clutch woes again. I have decided that the spigot bearing is doing its job just fine!

The engine is back in place now and I'm hoping to get everything connected up in the next day or two so I can give it a run out before the next job.

Colin
C Mee

I don't think what you describe is normal. My pushrod has about 2mm of free travel, and didn't have to be forced against the piston to get the pin in. I have a 1275 clutch and slave cylinder, and ribcase box. Do you have the correct pushrod, lever etc? Has it always been like this? It's most likely dragging in all gears, but you don't notice it happening for the synchro ones. It will cause wear in the long term.
Les Rose

Thanks Les.

The pushrod is new, bought as a possible fix a while ago, though it's the same length as the original.

A longer rod didn't help but I have been wondering whether a shorter rod might solve the problem. I'll get the grinder on one of them to see what effect that has.

I'll report back when I've had a chance to try it.

C
C Mee

Colin,

1/4" movement before pressure sounds excessive, have you adjusted the pushrod to move the piston closer to the fluid port to lessen that wasted travel so it will give you more usable clutch travel.
David Billington

David I can't see any way of adjusting the mater cylinder pushrod as it is just a one-piece component.

The clevis pin hole in the yoke has an oilite bush and there is no looseness there.

C


C Mee

Colin,

My mistake I was thinking of the earlier tandem master cylinder cars which have adjustable pushrods.
David Billington

two things-
when it's just sitting there are the clutch and brake pedals roughly the same height-
Also
you mention pushing against the slave cylinder return spring --is that the internal one inside the cylinder or have you got an external spring fitted=
William Revit

I thought the slave cylinder return spring was only on earlier Morris Minor and A35 installations? Unless you are referring to the lightweight spring inside the cylinder?

It shouldn't need the external spring as the clutch cover springs push the slave piston back by the correct amount and as far as it has to go. Adding an external spring could be moving the slave piston too far adrift and creating lost movement and insufficient 'declutching' when you are driving.
GuyW

Willy, the pedals are the same height within a mm or two.

The only spring at the slave end is the internal one. The pedal and slave return to resting positions without any hesitation.

I'm going to see what effect a shorter push rod has.

Guy, I'm sure the Minor clutch has always had a mechanical linkage with no hydraulics involved.

Thanks for your comments.

C
C Mee

<<I'm sure the Minor clutch has always had a mechanical linkage with no hydraulics involved.>>
Ah, that would be why it has a pull off spring attached to the lever arm then!
GuyW

All good, just checking
I don't think a shorter slave pushrod is a very good idea.
If the slave is out to the end of it's travel when you poke the pin in then there is no more travel available when you depress the pedal
If you've only got to squoosh it it 1/4" to get the pin in then that might be your issue--not enough remaining travel for when you use the pedal
When you get your pin in ,how far more can you push the piston back in then, you should have something like about 1/2" before it bottoms out---bearing in mind that this distance reduces as the clutch plate wears--To me it sounds like your pushrod is too short if anything.

Now back to the pedals---If your pedal height is roughly equal to the brake pedal then that sounds ok.
Are you saying the clutch master cylinder piston travels 1/4" before you feel any resistance OR are you saying the pushrod has 1/4" end clearance before it touches the piston in the cylinder---I'm assuming there is a return spring on the pedal itself, -with that spring unhooked how much free travel(rattle room) have you got in the pedal from fully up to when the pushrod first contacts the m/c piston
William Revit

Assume you have the correct release bearing and fork arm to suit the 1275 set up.
richard b

Does the slave have a circlip in the end? Some do, some don't.
If it does, and Willy is right about the piston not being pushed far enough back up the bore then a quick and simple test is to insert a 7/16 nut onto the end of the pushrod in the concave end of the piston. It will stay there, inside the rubber bellows, without dropping out.

As an aside though, another reason for clutch drag could be if the gearbox input shaft is dragging in the crank spigot bearing. Possibly a poor bearing alignment or fit?
GuyW

Willy. Thanks for your thoughts on pushrods. I have a couple of different ones on order just to try plus I have one that I extended. I will try them all once the car's running again. As it is, with a standard 1275 pushrod, there is an initial free movement of around 1/2" at the pedal before pressure is felt, then full travel until it touches the firewall. There is no difference in the free movement at the master cylinder with the pedal return spring disconnected.

Richard, you have got me thinking. This car has a bit of history. When I got it, it had a Morris Minor gearbox, during Covid I acquired and re-built and fitted a 1275 box. The fork is the one that came with the car, it's definitely not a Morris Minor one, and as far as I can tell, is correct. The Alan Anstead roller bearing is not obviously out of alignment. What would the alignment of one of those forks be like and would Alan's bearing fit in a 948(?) fork

Guy, The slave has a circlip, I will give your suggestion a try when I can get back underneath. I have always been suspicious of the spigot bearing. I couldn't see any marks on it that might tell me anything. I have replaced it with one that is slightly shorter in length.

I'm waiting for a couple of bits and should have the car up and running again by the weekend when can test out some of these ideas.

C
C Mee

Hi Colin,

The release arms I have are both stamped 22G169 the parts book says 168 but I have heard in the past numbers of parts being 1 out ?
The arm on the left has the classic bend due to over pressure usually by fitting a longer pushrod to try and get a bit more throw when the clutch is already bottomed out.

Bit late to check if it’s all back in place !

Hope it all goes well !

R.





richard b

Richard. My fork is definitely not banana-shaped. I couldn't detect any bend when I had it on the bench.

In answer to Willy's query, here's the play on the master cylinder/pedal linkage: http://youtu.be/CQgkZRFTvqw
C Mee

Sorry Colin I didn’t mean that yours was possibly bent (opposite issue I think to yours) I was just confirming what I think is the correct part number for a 1275.
Just that one of mine is rather bent !

R.
richard b

Hmm- It does look a bit too much travel.
It does have to travel a certain amount for the lip on the rubber cup on the piston to pass over the fill hole from the reservoir and block it off but not that far.
How does that compare to your brake cylinder/pedal travel.
There's a couple of posibilities--
Air in the master cylinder bore, but as you've been bleeding it a lot maybe not---Any air trapped in the master cylinder bore usually works it's way out through the cylinder filler hole in the reservoir---If you jack the front of the car up or park on a steepish uphill grade and give the clutch a couple of really slow pumps to the floor and back that should get rid of any air there----I take it that your new(ish) cylinder is the tin reservoir in the middle of the cylinder type--or is it one of the replacement cast alloy ones with the reservoir at the end and the pipe coming out the middle. IF it's the cast type you do have to bleed the cylinder by bleeding at the pipe fitting--
The other possible is a faulty master cylinder-if it's the tin type there could be a washer missing leaving the piston cup too far back compared to the filler hole.
If it's the alloy type the valve in the end might be faulty but that'd also give a sinking pedal at the traffic lights so you would have noticed that by the car gradually creeping away uncontrollably while you have the pedal down

Maybe- little job --compare to the brake just out of interest -
William Revit

Colin

I wonder whether you might have some mismatched components? Unfortunately I cannot find my pictures and application & part number tables from the old Gerard’s Garage website which showed the different clutch arms, clutch arm pivot point covers and clutch release bearings between the various gearboxes and engines. (He also had a great table of numbers to identify gearboxes). I wonder which clutch arm you have in and whether it is bent.

Another question is about any new hydraulic bits - which make and what bore sizes? For hopefully acceptable quality I try to use AP Caparo (now ‘920 Engineering’) where I can - Powertrack Brakes (Paul Hunt) and David Manners MG can be sources of AP Caparo; and if not available then I seek out Delphi made components.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Mike,

Maybe have a look here https://web.archive.org/web/20250216065533/http://gerardsgarage.com/ to see if what you're looking for has been archived. You may have to try various time from the bar at the top.
David Billington

Colin, I am sure you know that all A series gearboxes still spin the non synchro first and reverse gears unless you 'steady' them with a quick fab into second. It is so much second nature with me from learning to drive, 60 years on and I still do it in every stick shift car these days, irrespective of make!

That drag can also be caused by gearbox oil, especially when it's cold. But you do seem to have allowed for all of that, and still feel the clutch itself isn't fully disengaging.

Is the driven plate in good condition? In particular does it slide freely on the gearbox input shaft? No burrs or ridges on either? Have you checked the plate on a flat surface for any twist or high spots?

I see you have added the grease nipples to the pedal shaft! 👍😁
GuyW

Guy, I’m a bit confused by what you’ve said there.

First gear is locked to the third motion shaft, so isn’t doing any spinning if the car is at a standstill. The reverse idler sits there doing nothing (idle) unless first or reverse are selected.
Dave O'Neill 2

The gearbox is a constant mesh gearbox so all intermediate forward gear pairs are always engaged, which gear you use depends on which dog clutch you engage to lock that pair to the output shaft, 4th being direct connection input to output. Reverse is engaged by sliding the reverse idler into place to couple the laygear to the mainshaft via the idler.
David Billington

Second and third are constant mesh, first is a crash gear. The reverse idler engages with first gear and the laygear.

Also, when engaging first gear, it also engages with the reverse idler, which is always spinning when driving in first. I don’t know if there’s a particular reason for this. Maybe it helps with lubrication, as the idler sits lower down in the oil.
Dave O'Neill 2

I've never queried why, just know that I was taught 60 years ago, to momentarily move the gearstick into 2nd before selecting either first or reverse. It makes gear selection easier and smoother. That was initially in an Austin 7, then Morris 8, followed by minis, then A35. But once the habit was learnt its in my muscle memory and I still do it now!
GuyW

It’s possible that it’s to stop the laygear from turning, as that is in constant mesh with the first motion shaft, which could be affected by drag.
Dave O'Neill 2

Like Guy I’ve always gone into 2nd before engaging 1st - I assumed everyone did it to ensure it pops in easily with no grating.
I think Dave has the reason - layshaft drag.
richard b

So my point was, is this what Colin is experiencing? Is it perhaps a gearbox rather than Clutch issue?
GuyW

I, too, have always used the 'slip it into 2nd before 1st' technique, but that masks the underlying issue.

When the clutch is fully depressed, the input shaft should stop spinning (eventually) but it doesn't. I can only assume that the clutch is not clearing completely. It is a Borg and Beck unit which I believe to be kosher and, as far as I can tell.

I posted this query because of what appeared to be anomalies with the push rods. I would be interested to know whether other folk have the same free movement on the master cylinder push rod. (Incidentally, Willy, there is a similar amount of free movement on the brake pedal). I know that the earlier twin master cylinder has adjustable push rods but the 1275 one is a one-piece item with no means of taking up the slack.

I had got the drag reduced to the lowest level for ages last year and had been hoping to eliminate it all together. Maybe I'm just trying to achieve the unachievable.

Colin
C Mee

Colin, I don't think that what you want is unachievable. The drag you describe is not right. Yes, when moving off after stopping I'm in the habit of bringing the lever back until the 2nd gear synchros touch, then it goes into 1st without a crunch. It's because the gearbox oil is still circulating and driving the gears round. That's all that's necessary, no need to go fully into 2nd.

I well remember introducing the Sprite to my son when he turned 21. He whacked it straight into 1st and wondered what the noise was. By the end of the day he was double declutching like me.

A laborious test that I have done is to put it into gear, hold the clutch pedal down, and roll the car. Is there a difference in effort between in gear and in neutral?

I still have the dual master cylinder, sleeved down for the disc brakes and the 1275 clutch. The clearance between the pedal and the piston pushrod is about 1mm.
Les Rose

Colin,
I wasn't suggesting that there's nothing wrong. Rather, I was saying although "they all do that, Sir", that's only to a degree. When mildly it is why one does the 2nd gear alignment thing first, as I am sure you are aware. It does help. But if it is unacceptably severe, as yours seems to be then it maybe a gearbox issue not a clutch issue. You do seem to have investigated possible clutch problems. Someone like Clair Atkinson might advise on if the symptom could be gearbox related for your car.
GuyW

Colin-
So if both the cylinders have similar travel and the pedal heights are similar then the master cylinder department would appear to be ok-
--I'm tending to think now that the slave cylinder piston might be bottoming out against the circlip hindering full travel.
If you were to pull the boot off the cylinder and get someone to push the pedal right down and check the slave piston doesn't hit the circlip might be a good check that ---If it hits you need a slightly longer pushrod.
If it doesn't hit then I have heard of others grinding the back off the clutch pedal to get some more travel room where the pedal hits the toeboard when fully depressed

OR--maybe it had a slightly bent clutch plate which has now worn a bit improving clearance there--------
William Revit

Colin,

I think you need other eyes on it.

Shame you're in Shropshire and not Kent. I'd have a gander.

Drive to kent? 😉

Anybody with the relevant knowledge/experience close enough to Colin to go and assist? -- If requested?

anamnesis

In your first post you say you have a new master cylinder so have discounted that as the problem. I had a very similar tale to yours and it was a pre-failed master not sealing the clutch bore properly. Mine is a dual master in a Mk2 midget.

After a large amount of time, money and effort the fix was half a replacement seal set.
Karl Thompson

As Willy says, and why I asked if the slave has a circlip. The slave cylinder needs to have an 'at rest' start position far enough up the bore to allow for a full clutch disengagement stroke before the piston contacts the circlip. Otherwise you will only get a partial disengagement. That nut on the end of the pushrod trick takes seconds to try as a simulation of a longer pushrod. Its a quick and easy test.

Thinking further about this, when you release the pedal the master cylinder piston is pushed back up its bore by hydraulic pressure back up from the slave. This pressure and movement is generated from the clutch cover springs. If the clutch hasn't fully disengaged it will have less pent up movement as it is released, resulting in less fluid displaced all the way back up the system to the master. Presumably this means the master cylinder piston itself is moved less far and maybe that is causing your excess 1/2" slack at the actuating pedal pushrod. That gap is a symptom of the fault rather than a cause.
GuyW

Someone mentioned oil drag I think.

I looked back through the posts, perhaps I missed it. But have you used the wrong oil in the box?

Should be 20:50 engine oil, not a gear oil.

Just a thought.

anamnesis

I can't see how oil would be the problem.

If there's drag, it's either coming from the clutch plate or the spigot bearing IMHO.
Dave O'Neill 2

Something to do with the oil being too viscous, and keeps the gears spinning, making it harder to change gears.

Course the oil may be 20 50, in which case ignore me. lol.

anamnesis

Miracles do happen.

Or maybe I finally got something right for a change.

The engine and gearbox are back in and I was able to give my Sprite a brief run out (minus bonnet a la Prop!).

The gear changing was faultless. There wasn't the slightest snatch or graunch going into 1st or reverse, even without dipping into 2nd before 1st from stationary.

The play at the master cylinder remains and the the slave cylinder pushrod is the standard one that needed presssing in to fit the clevis pin.

When the engine came out, I just detached the slave and tied it out of the way. Before the engine went back I gave it the briefest bleed, suspended by the remote bleed hose so the bleed point was as high as it could be. I didn't see any air bubbles emerge and the pedal felt just the same as usual.

The only other thing I did differently this time was to use a slightly shorter spigot bush lubricated lightly with ceramic grease.

I have often wondered whether it was drag in the spigot bearing but had no way of checking it and the other push-rod anomalies raised more queries.

Thank you for all your comments and advice, they have been really helpful (yes, Anam, W20/50 in the gearbox).

Now I just have to find why the wipers and winkers have decided to stop working; surely they can't be linked to the clutch!!

Many Thanks

Colin
C Mee

Good news Colin. Greasing the spigot bush sounds a good idea but I'm not sure if I did it when rebuilding. Bit of squeal sometimes when it gets hot in summer or is that normal?
Bill B

That's good news, Colin. And just in time for the start of Spring! Well done.
GuyW

Good to hear all seems to be working as it should be.

It's been said before, greasing of oilite bushes is not recommended.
David Billington

David. You reminded me that the oilite bush has been stored in a 20/50 oil for three years so it well soaked and it could be that which has done the job.

I used ceramic grease because I had seen it recommended for putting on the back of brake pads to reduce squeal. I thought it should be OK as I assume it don't expect it will get as hot as on brake pads.

C
C Mee

Congrat's Colin.

Pour yourself a well deserved glass of something.

🍷 🥂 🍺 😁
anamnesis

Good stuff -now get out there and enjoy it--- I still get a laugh remembering Jeff's bonnet off cell phone video - coming up 8 years since he left us - how time flys eh---
William Revit

Excellent news Colin.

David, thanks for tip about the web archive search - I’ll give it a try.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

I'm always reminded of the famous Titus Oates 'Archives' quote "I'm just going out and I may be some time"
GuyW

It was I who mentioned oil drag, but not as a cause of Colin's problem, just to explain that it wasn't. I would never have thought of the spigot bush. This reminds me to grease it when I change the clutch soon.
Les Rose

Les, I have since seen advice agreeing with Bill and recommending against greasing spigot bushes. The claim was that dust particles stick to the grease and increase the likelihood of binding.

As I mentioned, I used a very thin smearing of ceramic grease, however, the absence of drag may well be due to the oilite bearing having been stored in a 35mm film canister of oil for three years so it had had plenty of time to become thoroughly saturated.
C Mee

The main problem with greasing oilite bushes is it's likely to block the pores and prevent the proper circulation of oil within the bush.

A few years ago I had to shorten a couple of oilite bushes as the correct length wasn't available. The bushes didn't look like they had been lubricated but passed the tissue test, while rotating in the lathe a neat annular ring of oil formed around the bush which was quickly reabsorbed once the lathe stopped turning.

Someone posted here a few years ago that he had never known one to come pre-lubricated even though by definition they are pre-lubricated, I've never known one to not come pre-lubricated. They can lose some oil in storage depending how they have been stored so no harm in adding some more before fitting.
David Billington

This thread was discussed between 22/02/2026 and 03/03/2026

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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