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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Belt attachment: nyloc ?

Afternoon,

Making some preventive maintenance before my long trip to North to see Dave :) , I decided to do some preventive maintenance and change my fan belt (1275cc with dynamo). Belt was looking alright, but I had no idea since how long it was there, so I decided to change it and keep the old one as a safety spare.

I am glad I did that at home and not under the rain and/or touring somewhere: I needed all my muscles and brain for the job :D I had to remove the link to succeed to unscrew the nyloc nut...

=> So my question is: do you also use a nyloc nut ? Is it worth it ? It is also listed on Moss catalogue.

I do understand that you don't want it to unscrew with vibrations, but like a lot of other nuts... And there is also a split washer (Grey's favorites !): both looks like a lot of safety on the paper, and a pain when they are rusted...






CH Hamon

I have always used Nyloc's to secure the dynamo/alternator. better safre than sorry!
Bob Beaumont

Nylock good. Split washer bad. Throw it away and use a thick plain washer (and a new nylock).
Have a good trip.
Greybeard

Ok, I will do then :)

Which shop you would go for it ? I don't think the "big brand" (BandQ, Wickes,...) would have metric nyloc nut, would they ?
I guess you would buy in your favourite independent, but that doesn't really exist in Greater London.... :( Except if Gary has a secret address :)
CH Hamon

Chris, not sure when you going but Namrick in Brighton have all the fasteners you could possibly need!
Bob Beaumont

I will be a full pocket of them then ! I just try to avoid Brighton in August :p

Does it mean that everytime you change the belt, you change the nyloc too then? Should be able to anticipate that next time :)
CH Hamon

Not generally, you can usually reuse thenm 2 or 3 times.
Bob Beaumont

On both of my cars, for many moons, I have reversed the clamp. I drill out the hole to suit and fit that end to the engine with suitable washer and nylock allowing a few thou clearance for the clamp to pivot.
With suitable washer to bridge the slot I affix the slotted end at the dynamo / alternator end where it is more easily accessible.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan, I thought that was how they were supposed to go!
When I came to fit my adjustment strap I found that the single hole was undersized for fitting on the inner fixed end. I assumed this to be because it came from a different car so drilled it out to suit the Sprite. I could see no reason at all for the slotted end to be inboard where it is almost impossible to get at, especially with the early vertical flow rad with its closer cowling.

It seems that, inadvertantly, I have followed your recommended modification!
GuyW

Interesting views, I didn't think of inverting the steel link...

I would guess that, with my clumsy hands, I will one day damage the thread in the dynamo, and then having bigger problems to go through... Maybe that's why they put it in the less accessible place: to avoid clumsy people to damage the thread (or Lucas disapproved ?) ?

But your way of doing is definitely easier and better !

Everybody is for nyloc, so I get the point :) Thanks :)
CH Hamon

Nyloc AND spring washer are original equipment on dynamo cars with the slot on the pedestal NOT the dynamo.

There is a danger of stripping the aluminium dynamo front plate threads while getting the bolt tight enough to resist slipping if the slot is that end. Then you have to put a nut on the back which makes adjusting even more difficult.
Chris at Octarine Services

yes I have the original set up with the adjuster on the pedestal.It has a large washer, spring washer and nyloc. It came that way! I have had a couple of front dynamo plates fracturing around the adjustment lower bolt. The Frogeye has a longer adjustment strap than later cars (probably down to the mechanical rev counter drive?) so this may contribute to the problem.
Bob Beaumont


The alloy face plate can also fracture at the joint with the water pump. I had to make a strengthening plate in a Hotel car park, in France, when someone had that failure on one of my tours.

If the adjuster strap is reversed as I mentioned it will work very well as I have had mine that way, on Frogeye & Sebring Rep with Dynamo, Alternator and Dynamator, for many moons.

However if one is inadvertently ham-fisted and the thread is stripped the answer is to tack weld a metal tag to a nut with suitable thread.
Placing the nut at the back of the stripped thread the tag is bent over the alloy faceplate. A suitable bolt with sufficient thread is then used to engage the nut. The tag stops the nut revolving and negates the need for a spanner.
Alan Anstead

I am sure you could put many things on the wrong way round and they would still work - but that was not the way it was designed to go ....
Chris at Octarine Services

Thinking about it, with the link fitted the 'wrong' way, you are tightening the bolt on the part that is free to move. Depending on how you are pushing or pulling on the spanner, you could be altering the belt tension when tightening it.
Dave O'Neill 2

But whom is to say it was is the 'wrong way around' cannot designs be advanced, modified, altered or adapted.
By modifying the adjustment strap by opening the hole I have merely adapted the design to my satisfaction. I am not telling people to 'do it my way' merely offering an alternative working option.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan

Yes I have had a couple of failures at the water pump end too. I discovered that replacing the front engine plate with the stregthened one from a later 1275 engine solved it.
Bob Beaumont

Whatever - my advice to the PO is replace it as he found it with spring washer and nyloc nut and ignore other "helpful" suggestions.
Chris at Octarine Services

Whatever - a word often used when no good arguement can be offered in the face of proven fact.
Alan

Bob
Had the alternator break there on a participant on one of my runs. He wasn't having much luck having already been rear ended before the alternator problem.
I 'spacef' the the alternator from the engine with a block of wood and he limped it to the DHL office at Nice airport using airport transfers sevenoaks where we had a new alternator flown in from U.K.
Alan Anstead

Do what you like - I have had enough - Goodbye
Chris at Octarine Services

Cedric I have some METRIC nylocs, I could send you a couple with plain and spring washers if I have the size you want.
L Langley

Lawrence, I don't think Cedric needs a metric but was suggesting that the likes of B&Q would only stock metric, and not imperial.
Nigel Atkins

I'm swapping threads here Nigel, I couldn't find any on the B&Q site, that's why I made the offer.
L Langley

Do you have a BML Hayley/Bearing Man near you?

My local branch stocks imperial nuts and bolts.

If I need any for a particular job I usually buy a small stock of 10 or so but they seem to be happy to sell singles.

I just forget to label the surplus with size/thread details before I put them away somewhere sensible and organised so I either have to go rummaging the next time I need some or go and buy another ten or dozen!
C Mee

We have an engineer's merchant he will sell any quantity. I have bought stuff from there in the early 1950's, for my father, the shop is exactly the same now and probably as it was when first opened in 1913.
L Langley

Lawrence, I didn't realise that B&Q didn't stock nylocs. You're lucky with your shop as far as I know all of ours have closed a good while back, amazing when you consider the county used to be about shoes and engineering and all the motorsport associations that are still around.
Nigel Atkins

I like to hear both views, and that is why I come here for questions: to know how it was out of the factory - thanks Chris, and idea about how to make it different - thanks Alan and Guy. That is the beauty of the BBS :)

Lawrence, as said by Nigel, I found that my local DIY stores do stock Metric nyloc (or at least what their website say....) but, as far as my Nuts'N'Bolt knowledge goes (which is not a lot...), I shall need a Imperial Nyloc nut (I would guess I unscrewed the genuine 9/16 nyloc nut). Thanks a lot for proprosing though, that's really nice of you :)
CH Hamon

Do you mean a 3/8" nyloc (using a 9/16" spanner)(?).

Hope you cleaned those threads, in which case you might want a new nyloc as the rust might have spread the nylon in the existing nyloc (?).

Nigel Atkins

Colleagues who were ex-REME told me that they used to 'revive' nylocs with the aid of a cigarette lighter!

So far I've resisted the temptation to try that money-saving bodge (I believe that these days it's called a hack!). Has anyone here tried it?

Colin
C Mee

I am so glad I didn't buy it yet and you guess I would buy wrong :D I did use the 9/16 spanner, so does it mean I need to buy a 3/8 nyloc nut ? :)

(of course i did clean them, and put some copper ease as taught by Guy some time ago :))
CH Hamon

Cedric, do you not have a copy (or two) of very useful spanner size to thread size leaflet/notes to refer to?

Does coppergrease go with nylocs, seems a bit counter intuitive to me?
Nigel Atkins

Cedric - 3/8 UNF requires a 9/16 spanner. 5/16 UNF a 1/2 spanner and 1/4 UNF a 7/16 spanner.
My dynamo end nut is 5/16 UNF dont know about the other end.
I have some 5/16 UNF that I put on the rebuild then changed them for stainless so they have been used, there is some resistance when screwing a bolt in so they may be reusable. There is a couple of plain washers with these.
I have some 3/8 UNF unused with spring and plain washers also some 1/4 with plain washers. If any of these are of use I cann send you a couple.
lollipop44@gmx.com

L Langley

Cedric

Hopefully you have seen the following useful technical info: https://www.namrick.co.uk/acatalog/tech-info.html

Namrick sell imperial Nyloc nuts - see them in the drop down menu under the UNF nut category: https://www.namrick.co.uk/acatalog/Home_U_N_F_Bolts___Nuts__15.html
(They also sell UNC thread Nylocs)

Cheers
Mike

PS seat belt bolt threads are often UNF 7/16 inch diameter

M Wood

Surprisingly, as I generally find Halfords pretty useless these days for anything practical car related, last year I found they did a plastic box of mixed sizes of nuts and bolts in imperial sizes, including some nyloc ones. I bought a box but it wasn't good value, poor quality with badly formed threads and seemingly made of putty.

You can often "rejuvinate" Nylocs for re-use by putting the nut on a hard surface and tapping the nyloc end sharply and squarely on the end with a hammer. It deforms the nylon insert so that it recuts and grips when you then fit it. Probably only works effectively once though and I would avoid relying on that in a safety critical application.
GuyW

Nyloc day ! :)
(I first wanted to say "nuts day", but it doesn't really sounds right...)

Special thanks to Lawrence for the 3/8" : my fan belt should be fine for some years now :)

5/16" will be installed when I will have received another delivery :p





CH Hamon

Put something like this on your Christmas list: https://mgbhive.co.uk/product/650-piece-unf-nut-bolt-and-washer-kit/

I bought one a few years back to avoid reusing mangled fasteners, should last me a lifetime.

AdrianR

Great idea Adrian! I wonder which face my family will do when i will open the package and be happy :D

On the same topic....Should i put back some starlocks when i will assemble my new springs ? Would you change the screws (or how do you decide to keep or put new screws ?)?

(It is one screw from each side. I think i have a new wishbone on one side - hence newer and different screws)


CH Hamon

Same as with split washers I'm never sure how effective shakeproof washers are as a holder, but I would replace shakeproof washers with new if I was using them.

(Is the bigger star washer the correct type(?).)

I only used (new) setscrews, plain washers (each side) and nylocs and they have all held firm IIRC, mind, road muck probably helps to bind them.

If you have a stock of good quality new setscrews then that is what I would use (along with new washers and nuts, I dislike reusing nylocs unless I have to).

You could reuse the set screws you have if the rust cleans off easily, and clean off the muck from those not rusted.

I think seeing new shiny nuts and bolts shows where you have been and reminds you to check for tightness (after a suitable amount of road use).

Will you be using the (simple as even I can do it) long thread method of lowering the spring seat to remove the road springs?
Nigel Atkins

Good evening Nigel,

Thanks for your advises :)
The picture represents what was holding my springs ;) The shiny bit was on the driver side, and the rusty one on the left side.

Something which took me time to realise, is that they are high tensile bolts... As i will tackle some surface corrosion before installing the new springs, then i have time to be on the safe side and order new bolts. I am just wondering what people do, as i don t want to change bolts for the sake of it, but i don't want to take risks either here...

(I did use the "simple but long" threaded rod solution ;))
CH Hamon

I was not sure of the length of the rusty setscrew but if it is the same length as the one with the shiny nut (to allow for nyloc) and both of the correct type, without damage to heads or threads then there is no reason why you could not clean and reuse them.

From the photo, to me, the edges of the shiny nut *look* a bit marked for one lot of on then off use, perhaps an ill-fitting spanner or socket was used at some point.

Instead of messing around with rods I got a couple of long metric setscrews (75 or 100mm, I forget) as the main tension is off in quite a short distance (and I was with 400 and 360lb springs) but I would not trust them for a second use in this application, but as I got the springs from Kim Dear I've not needed to replace them.
Nigel Atkins

I think the nut arw shiny because they are poor quality and weak (or i am not gentle enough :p). Anyway, as it is the spring and the way it is fixed (all effort goes through the screws permanently), i will play it safe and replace all the bolts and nuts. I am not in a rush (wishbones issue :p), it is not so expensive and easy to get on internet :)

You do have a point about using the same screws/rod few times...Maybe long high tensile screws then ! :)

Mines are from Kim too, as widely praised here, at least for springs. I did go for the 9.0" (360lb/in), so we will be able to compare car's height as you have 9.5" if i am not mistaken ? :)

CH Hamon

I just used standard metric long setscrews, plain washers and nuts. I did use a couple of sets of short copper tube offcuts as spacers to make it easier to get at the nuts with a socket. I threw the setscrews and nuts away each time as I felt they had done their job as even though I took them slow, steady and evenly with lowering and raising for a short period I could feel they were under load, perhaps I should have used a different metric thread.

Kim is good for more than just the springs.

Yes mine are 9.5", 360lb, Kim got them in to help me out too.

The ride height will depend on other things too but mine is more like factory ride height than many other Spridgets I've seen, and these springs are a lot less likely to crack and break than modern offerings from elsewhere.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 28/08/2020 and 10/09/2020

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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