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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Bent Anti roll bar...

Evening all

Fitting the K-midget's 'present' for passing its MOT (bigger ARB (Finally!)) and noticed why I could never get the old one to line up properly. (see image of drivers side with old matched up with new at passenger side)

Thought it was quite hard to bend ARBs like that, but hey ho. new one going on now.

Does anyone refit the little clampy things that are supposed to stop side to side movement? The old ones won't fit on my fat bar so do I need to invent some new ones?




Rob Armstrong

Rob,
on my 11/16" ARB they weren't fitted from new (by LB) and on advice I didn't fit the stops (or whatever they're called), on better advice I did fit them

easy to test, don't fit them drive as normal, then centralise your ARB and drop links and fit the ends stops (or whatever they're called) - I bet you notice an instant difference

when I first fitted mine it made things at the front more immediate and firmer/stiffer/harsher

obviously for a beefed up ARB you'll need beefed up end stops (or whatever they're called)
Nigel Atkins

On my stock set up... my stops didnt fit and and had alot of slop

I used hose clamps and some flat washers....still working,

Remember to beef up weld the plates on the chassis that the roll bar bolts to or the plates will rip out

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

It does seem a bit odd that thicker ARBs are available for Spridgets and MGBs, but no-one seems to sell the collars.

I was thinking of fabricating some for my B.

The other option is to find a car which had a thicker ARB as standard and use the collars from that.
Dave O'Neill2

Couple of blocks of soft alloy, hole saw, hacksaw, some long 1/4" bolts and you could have some nick looking stops. Or go poke around an electrician supply house and find some conduit/knock out clamps.
Trevor Jessie

I've 'modified' mine with a wooden handled persuasion device and a little heat, so they fit now. How many miles have the hose clamps and washers done Prop? ;) :p (or is that mean... :) )

Bar doesn't fit though. The car's had a front end shunt at some point that has bent it, so the back end of the ARB catches on the wishbone. It's why it has no bumper on. Though it only seems bent in front of the suspension mountings, as all tracking, camber and tyre wear etc. are good.

So I just need to tweak the back end of the bar a little so that it fits. It's bigger than it needs to be behind the hole anyway.

Rob Armstrong

I say the wishbone, it's actually catching on the fairly major wishbone strengthening bit I fitted across the bottom...

Lovely. :)
Rob Armstrong

Rob, if you are strengthening the underside of the chassis extensions and ARB mounts - which you really must - then you could move the mounts forward a bit to give the required clearance between the wishbones and drop links.
Guy W

Sounds like a plan that, presumably the little things are just tacked on the chassis rails?
Rob Armstrong

Yes, But it is almost universal that the thin sheet steel forming the underbelly of the chassis rail will rip out under the loading imposed by the thicker ARB.

The neat way is to remove the existing then sheet steel completely from the underside of the extension bits of the chassis rail forward of the cross member, and replace with a heavier gauge. Then weld the ARB mounting plates back on. Do this, and move them forward a little to give you the extra clearance that you need.
Guy W

good point by Prop and Guy about the reinforcement and perhaps moving them

Rob you also need to reinforce the fixing of the bottom rail plates that the retaining plates are attached to

depending on the size of your new ARB the modified

Dave,
the end stops (hurrah, I got the right name) are available for 9/16", 5/8" and 11/16" (don't know about 3/4") - I got mine from T*ss IIRC

ETA: I was still typing when Guy posted last
Nigel Atkins

I got the edit guillotine again

should have been -
depending on the size of your new ARB your present modified end stops might not be up to the job for your new bar

mark up your bar and check and see if it moves
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

According to M*ss, only 9/16" are available.
Dave O'Neill2

End stops: 11H462K = 5/8 bar. Stocked by Moss BTW.
This is the cast alloy type, which can be bored out up to 3/4" quite esily.
While these weren't available, some found the pressed steel 9/16 ones would actually fit round the bigger bars, albeit nor very elegantly but it did the job easily.
Or, as others found, a piece of hose secured by a hose clip did the job quite well too.

Reinforcement: Yes, definitely. The photo shows how we do it - quite simple and very strong as it effectively makes a truss - the existing chassis closing plate at the top, the reinforcement at the bottom, and the captive plate (plug welded to the reingorcement) as the strut between the two. (The patch effect is because the body had just been sandblasted, and the holes were taped over to stop the sand getting it). This method won't allow the bar to be shifted (personally I'd rather try to fix the cause of the problem rather than its effects.)

Paul Walbran

that looks pretty good Paul. Something like that will be needed I think. Back on with the old one then till I can get the new mounts welded in properly. Would be a shame to tear them out while 'testing'

Rob Armstrong

<<personally I'd rather try to fix the cause of the problem rather than its effects>>
A good principle with which I entirely agree. In my case the mounting brackets had ripped out, so their position - no longer attached to the car - was the cause of the problem! I used the ARB to locate where the mounting blocks needed to be repositioned, allowing adequate clearance between the drop links and front of the wishbones. A sort of reverse assembly!
Guy W

Yes, they can be a bit of a problem once ripped out, we founf that the hard way too :-)
Paul Walbran

Props are still working????
That black hearted middget has not see asphalt in many moons. How can he say THEY ARE STIILL WORKING.
Get that head on PROP and prove it.
Sandy
DARNOC31

Dave,
you're just trying to get me to promote 'T*ss' and some of their 'er' managers

End stops for 9/16 and 5/8 diameter bars (2 reqd) AHH6546K 8.56

End stops for 11/16 diameter bars (2 reqd) 11H462K 10.76

(Moss Europe - (UK))

as you know they don't like customers deciphering their catalogues and stocking systems, that's why they put in the denied errors!

Paul,
I wish you hadn't put that photo up, my reinforced plates and replaced fixings are as well, uhm, well, well reinforced as yours

just think how front heavy that car must be :)
Nigel Atkins

got (edit) timed out again

sorry, previous post has out of date price on 11H462K

End stops for 11/16 diameter bars (2 reqd) 11H462K
11.57
Nigel Atkins

Has anyone ever tried to mount the anti sway bar on top of the chassis rail, instead of under...not sure of the advantage

Here is the write up for how to do it

http://www.omniautos.force9.co.uk/sprite/m_frsus.htm

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Here is a photo...

http://db.tt/4uEd3apg

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Yes, it is, I've seen it done on 2 cars, both seem to work quite well. More ground clearance is a bonus, but in my case that's nowhere near the lowest bit.

Looks interesting too.
Rob Armstrong

missed out that important word 'not' again - should have read -

Paul,
I wish you hadn't put that photo up, my reinforced plates and replaced fixings are as well, uhm, well, not as well reinforced as yours

just think how front heavy that car must be :)
Nigel Atkins


Guy...

Better ground clearance....thats what appealed to me about about attaching the ARB bar on top of the chassis rail

Btw... in my suspension upgrade rebuild im doing a really cool set up, it uses the chevy s-10 links instead of the midget links to attach to the wish bones

Its the Addco anti sway bar...mine is 3/4 inch, so alot beefier then stock

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Wow... I might have to do an addco upgrade to the new series III addco system...Nice, very artsy

Anyway, here is the addco website,

http://www.addco.net/aftermarket/

Prop


Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop,

Yes, I mounted mine on top of the rail. I did it because I had lowered the car quite a lot and I wanted more ground clearance so that I wouldn't risk knocking the mounting off.

Charley
C R Huff

With the K the sump sits lower...

I'd rather sponk the ARB off something than the sump...

Mine's lowered a bit, but the ARB can swing freely from the drop links without hitting the ground :)

I guess when it's fitted I'll find out if it really is the best mod you can do to the suspension (as suggested elsewhere)

Currently the rear dampers are winning that competition..
Rob Armstrong

Like PW I use the original 9/16 stops on my 11/16 bar...

Anthony Cutler

Rob,
I can't fully remember your set up but just a thought, on the LB set up the other side of the pan wall butts up to one of the pan plates on the bottom damper locating bar

so the wishbone pan is braced across by the damper locating bar

and the drop link plate is secured to the damper locating bar plate with the wishbone pan wall sandwiched between them

this makes the fixing secure and reinforces the wall of the wishbone pan which I guess helps to prevent the pan twisting and cracking from the bolt holes

this all might make more sense if you have the LB fitting instructions drawing (I can send you the pdf if you want it or you can pick it up from somewhere on t'web)

I'm thinking with your lowered and stiffened front suspension and now uprated ARB you might transfer more stress to your wishbone pans

(after a good set of tyres at correct pressure) in my experience fitting an ARB is the most cost effective handling improvement (subject to the car and suspension being in good condition and maintained of course)

uprating an existing one is a different matter, it needs to compliment and keep the balance with any other suspension improvements
Nigel Atkins

slightly blurry phone photo, but that's the bottom link on mine.

I reckon the wishbone will be fine with the extra ARB loadings now..

It's strong enough now to have the damper on the back. Previously it wasn't and it snapped the wishbone.. Also makes a good jacking point.

Rob Armstrong

yes sorry I forgot you had that, it's doing what I meant

niceee springs too :)
Nigel Atkins

This is how Will Corey has done it on his dad's K.
(Will's photo's)

Not sure I need to change it as I dont rally it like they do and we hardly have dirt roads anymore.
On tarmac its very unlikely to hit anything with the ARB (unles drifting of the tarmac to whatever...)


Arie de Best

Here's how we reinforced mine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/safety_fast/sets/72157623942645649/

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

thanks gryf...

I like your idea ... just attach 1/8 inch plate steel to a bracket and weld it to the chassis...simple and to the point, no captive nuts or over involved thinking involved

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

thanks all :)

the bigger ARB is in the boot till I can get the mounts welded. I reckon a big plate on the bottom will do the job.
Rob Armstrong

Rob,
IF you run without an ARB for the first short straight part of the first journey you might not notice but the first roundabout, sweeping or sharp bend you will :)
Nigel Atkins

I have never had the stop things on any of my roll bars but on reading this thread (and Nigel's comments) I ordered some. I expect them to arrive today so will be fitting them over the weekend.
I also noticed last week when I fitted new links that the plates that fit between roll bar link and wishbone were different heights so the roll bar is normally in a twisted state. I have ordered a new one of those too.
I hope I notice the difference.

Dave
Dave Brown

Dave...

Are you saying the roll bar is only attached to the wishbones and no where else??

If thats correct and you want to know if there will be a noticeable differance ??

Well.... theres doing a huge ugly smelly fat dude in your fun hole. Vs. You Doing a hot sexy young julia roberts in her fun holes, I dont know, do you think theres a differance ....hahaha

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Dave,
if your drop links were original and not damaged put them back on and return the new ones, I've found rubbish rubber on drop links (although the stock *might* be clear now I'd not chance it)

you may (depending on your present ARB and suspension) have already found that without the stop ends the ARB might not be central and the drop links unevenly located (although the different fixing plates might hide this)

Nigel Atkins

ETA: the difference is dependant on the size of the ARB and the condition and type of the rest of the suspension

if the rest of the system or parts of it are well worn then 'tightening' one part may not make up for the worn parts or even make them slightly worse by putting more stress on them - standard set up in reasonable condition and I think the difference might be subtle if noticeable at all, that's not to say a difference isn't there - would you notice an extra 3mpg whilst driving but that could represent 10%+ improvement
Nigel Atkins

Prop - Dave means no sideways location, not no connection to the car.

Nigel I've put the old one back on for now.

As I read it, Dave's got 2 different sized plates that bolt the drop link to the wishbone. Having both of these the same will help :) Keep the new drop links on and see how they last, and keep the old ones just in case (See Is this normal? thread...)
Rob Armstrong

that's good then Rob as it means you'll be able to do back to back spirited, twisty roads comparison runs to see difference in bar sizes and then add the end stops to the new bigger bar so see if that makes much difference
Nigel Atkins

No Prop, I have no sideways location on my roll bar like Rob says. Well it has now as I have just fixed the new collars on.

I changed the drop links as the threads were screwed and I could not tighten the nuts fully so they were lose on the brackets.

I am half way through changing the brackets/plates but I am struggling with two bolts on the bracket/plate that is too small. Looks like I am going to have to grind them off.

I also have two different wishbones. One looks to have more reinforcement underneath it.
Oh the fun of running cheap 40 year old cars that have had little maintenance.
Happy days.

Dave
Dave Brown

Dave,
sounds like one wishbone might be older than the other and better made or at least sturdier

I found a collection of different length o/e, ring and combination spanners are useful to use on those three nuts and bolts (when correct size is used) and no matter which order you put them in one is awkward to get or keep the spanner on or I missed it the three or four times I've done it
Nigel Atkins

Nigal

I forgot about that... I remember reassembling the arb assembly an took like 7 differant wrenches to bolt down 8 pieces of hardware ... I was just cursing a blue bonnet that day

.
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Nigel,
Yes they are different.
Luckily, I have almost new front line dampers,up rated springs (not from moss) and Barry king wishbones on the scrap car to transfer over. I just need some time to do it.
Dave
Dave Brown

Dave,
funny that, I was going to suggest Barry King wishbones but I thought you'd already ordered others

I'm very pleased with my standard ride height uprated springs from Kim Dear at Magic Midget, no more scraped exhaust and dented underside and I don't need to slow right down on uneven roads, I much prefer them to the ("1/2 inch", "no I said 1/2 to 3/4 inch") 1 inch lower springs

highly recommended to others if not yourself
Nigel Atkins

equally, with a nice light K up front, Nigel's ("1/2 inch", "no I said 1/2 to 3/4 inch") 1 inch lower springs work really well :)
Rob Armstrong

This thread was discussed between 20/09/2013 and 30/09/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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