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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Boot lock doesn't

I think this falls more under the category of something to do, rather than something needed.

My trunk lock has a key that easily rotates the lock cylinder 180°. But the handle acts the same no matter the position of the lock cylinder. The handle still rotates and allows the boot to be opened.

I'm tempted to disassemble the lock to try to figure out why, and see if I can make it lock. But it's not meant to be disassembled. The steel of the square bar is seriously swaged, and I'll probably do more damage than harm doing the disassembly.

Now I have a latch that works just fine, and in my 19 years of ownership I probably would have liked to be able to lock the boot three times. Maybe only twice.

Has anyone done the extra disassembly to restore the locking function? Can't find this problem in the archives.

Thank you.



Mark 1275

I have a number of lock assemblies, without keys.

I'm tempted to take one apart, out of curiosity.
Dave O'Neill 2

Mark I have done this, as I swapped the lock barrel for one that used the same key as the door and ignition locks. But I don't think it involved dismantling that inner shield which is swaged onto the square shaft. But its a while ago, so may have this wrong.

The inner end of the lock barrel has a pin that locates in a slot in a small square peg. This acts as a shuttle such that turning the key extends the peg out to one side where it locates into a slot in the outer casing, uniting the T handle with the inner squared shaft. like this, the peg then moves around a quadrant slot, allowing the connected T handle and inner dhaft to turn through 90 degrees. Turning the key 180 degrees withdraws the peg from one side and extends it out the opposite side where it locates with a simple square notch in place of the quadrant slot. like this, the handle is locked and wont turn at all.

From this you will understand that the lock barrel itself isnt fastened to that inner shaft. I think therefore that with the key in the lock, one can turn and pull outwards and remove the complete barrel. I suspect the little peg on yours has worn, or maybe the pin on the inner end of the lock barrel has sheared off.
GuyW

Thinking about what I have just described, I wonder if the lock barrel withdraws when the key is only half turned. i.e. just 90 degrees. That would suggest that the shuttle pin was mid way and not extending out on either side so would clear the outer part, allowing it to withdraw.

Doubt in my mind is that often lock barrels are secured in place by a small lateral pin that needs to be drifted out from the side. Just not sure how one could get to such an arrangement on a boot handle. Dave may discover if he dismantles one of his spares!
GuyW

Success!

I think.

I used penetrating spray and let the lock sit, then tried to turn the key and pull the cylinder out as suggested. I couldn't get the cylinder out, but all of a sudden it decides to lock!

I still need to install it to see if it works in place. Will the handle be vertical in the locked position? Or horizontal? I'll know more tomorrow, but it sure feels like success.

Thank you for the responses.
Mark 1275

Well done Mark. Always worth trying a bit of lubrication.
Handle can be fitted to latch ( and therefore lock) in either vertical or horizontal. It just depends how you assemble the square shaft into the hooked inner part inside the trunk lid.
Horizontal is the normal orientation when locked.
GuyW

Mark,
as you've found many repairs, servicing and maintenance jobs on the car boil down to clean and lubricate. By using a good penetrating releasing agent you've both cleaned and lubricated but I'd suggest you take a couple more quick and simple steps before refitting (or on the car if it is now).

A good flush out with releasing spray with the handle at the bottom so that crud comes out the bottom with pressure and gravity and allow to fully drain and dry.

Then use dry Teflon mixture or a very little graphite oil (you can make your own our just shave the 'lead' of a pencil into the barrel and or to both sides of the key and insert the key and turn the lock.

You can keep the lock in good operation simply by using it on a reasonable regularity, consider it as a locking glove box to keep things safe. Or like other things you might not use regularly such as, headlight flasher, horn, heater motor, wipers just test they're working every few weeks or so.

My boot lock was fitted so that the locking was the opposite way round but I took the handle/lock off and easily sorted it to the correct way but can't now remember how other than it was very easy.
Nigel Atkins

It's normal to fit the handle to lock in the horizontal position so as to make it difficult/impossible for a potential thief to access to the fixing screws.
Peter Blockley

Interestingly, the WSM shows the lock barrel, but doesn't say how to remove it.





Dave O'Neill 2

Peter, how does that work? You need to have the boot open, or be inside it, to get at the fixing screws anyway!

Unless your lock is different?
GuyW

Happy to say I now have a locking boot. Flushed the lock with sprays, and all seems to work as it should.

Of course I had to install twice, because the first time I had the handle horizontal in the unlatched position.

Dave, if you do take a lock assembly apart I'd sure like to see it. Despite Guy's description, I can't picture what's going on in there.

Thanks for the advice.
Mark 1275

Yes a photo of the parts would help! I was describing what I recalled from quite a few years ago (20?)
1. The lock barrel is of the standard design: It has little brass plungers that extend out one side and locate in a slot in the outer part of the casing, preventing the lock barrel from turning. When the correct key is inserted the little brass plungers are withdrawn and the lock barrel will then rotate.
2. The inner end of the lock barrel has a pin which pushes a small square peg from left to right as the lock barrel rotates. When pushed to the right it extends out and locates into a small notch in the outer casing and this then prevents the boot handle from turning. It is locked.
3. If the lock barrel is turned through 180 degrees (with the key) the square pin slides across and extends to the other side where it fits into a slot extending around the casing in a 90 degree arc. As the peg can slide around this arc it allows the outer handle to turn and as it does so it moves the main shaft of the lock and the inner catch plate with it so it unfastens the boot latch.

A photo or a diagram would certainly help!

As your key moved freely, I suspect the problem was that the little square peg was sticking with old grease or dirt and not locating into the notch, which would have locked it. Squirting some easing fluid in has freed up the little peg which is now sliding where it ought to!

GuyW

Guy - Like this! I thought it was original and that they were all like this; I have never needed to check the WSM. You learn something new every day.


Peter Blockley

People who don't check with books can do things differently, or wrong, though I'm not suggesting you or anyone else that doesn't believe in learning from books has done anything wrong.

Reading from posts on the internet seems similar to learning from books to me.

When were the screws added.
Nigel Atkins

The screws were there when I bought the car in 1995 and I have absolutely no idea when they were first added. Looking at them again now, it does look as though they are not original.
Even if I had looked at that section of the WSM, I doubt I'd have spotted the anomaly. It works fine, so it will stay as it is - all part of the car's rich history. Life is a continual learning process.
Peter Blockley

Peter, all of the boot handles I have ever seen are fitted with two threaded studs on the inside - not with exposed screw heads like yours. Which is why your earlier comment about Shielding the fixing screws didnt make sense to me!
I wonder if that is original, or have the holes been drilled through.

Sorry, overlaped messaging!
GuyW

Nothing wrong with learning for yourself or having those extra screws.

I just like to promote reading the manuals as my experience is that sometimes when men (always men in my experience) refuse to RTfM or take verbal or written instruction they sometimes balls it up for others and not at their own costs.

If you balls something up (or made a mistake) for yourself at your own cost and it affects no one else then that's fine and hopefully part of the learning.

I remember now, mine at some stage had the boot handle upside down so you turned it to lock position to lock it. I had to finally put it the other way round as I kept forgetting it was opposite to lock or unlock.
Nigel Atkins

Well it just so happens that when I overhauled my boot latch 9 years ago this month, I took some photos - but I can't remember how it came apart! The photo of it assembled was taken the day after the 'exploded' photo, it looks like I filed off the swage and drilled the shaft and used a split pin to re-assemble it.

Note that the second item down the left side of parts is a spring which you can just make out in the assembled photo.

I've just been out to the garage to have a look, but there is the PVC boot over the shaft so I cant see it!


HTH Jim







J Smith

Mark and Jim's photos have highlighted to me that I either ordered or was sent a paper gasket (as in Dave's photo) instead of the plastic or rubber one shown in the photo that I previously thought were fitted. Good job I was too lazy to ever fit it.
Nigel Atkins

Thank you, Jim! You're braver than me.
Mark 1275

My boot has never locked, I have never managed to insert the key, or any of my similar keys, fully. I can't be sure that the boot lock has the same barrel as the doors and ignition.

Is the number (890) on the square shaft in Martin's original photo the key number?

I've just flooded the lock with WD40 to see if that frees things up over night (I know Nigel, I should have used Plus Gas - promise to use that for the next dousing!)

Colin
C Mee

On my '71 car, the boot used a different key to the doors. That's why I dismantled the lock to file the brass tumblers to match the door key.

That first photo of Jim's matches what I was attempting to describe with words. The small shuttle piece, to the left of the handle, slides through the squared hole in the handle shaft. And you can see the notch at the lower side, inside the outer part of the handle, that recieves the end of the shuttle when in the locked position.
GuyW

Colin,
provided the lock isn't too bad WD40 should do.

I don't know if the number on the shaft relates to the key number but it seems a very reasonable idea.

There's a list of keys in the factory parts catalogue, and probably elsewhere, the three digit key number is preceded by two letters to give the full code to blank.

Normally locks were so worn just about any key would do obviously not the case for your boot lock.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I've got a small collection of Wilmot Breeden keys but none of them goes into the lock to the full depth - WD40ing and Plus Gassing ongoing.

My Morris Minor key opens and starts the Sprite with no trouble, but it's not reciprocal as the Sprite key doesn't work at all on the Morris. Strange, as I seem to remember starting the Morris with a screwdriver on one occasion!
C Mee

Colin,
the lock (barrel?) could be a later replacement perhaps.

The heritage certificates give original key numbers - but on the record I have only the numbers not the letters.

IIRC somewhere there might be info on keys but not sure if it related to Spridgets or what period.

I threw away three spare keys I had, one original and two copies, as no one wanted them at the time.
Nigel Atkins

FP are the round ones, FS are square.
I think.
GuyW

My doors and boot key(s) is a 'square', has 'WBH' one side and 'MADE IN ENGLAND' plus 'FS 9**' on the other. I'm not sure that they are originals but they might be(?).
Nigel Atkins

WBH = Wilmot Breedon (somethimg else).. perhaps?

Holdings?
GuyW

Most of my FS keys are square, but some are round and some rectangular.

I think FPs were an earlier series. The only ones that I had were from A35s.




Dave O'Neill 2

My (1976) factory Parts Catalogue lists FP 626-750 as with this eBay seller - https://www.ebay.co.uk/c/1588632645

Seems my (FS) keys aren't original, well to the 70s at least.

"David Jinks 2 years ago
Wilmot Breedon's manufacturing was bought by Weston Body Hardware, based in Redditch, Worcestershire."

http://www.westonbodyhardware.com/our-history/
Nigel Atkins

Nigel - you posted a copy of the Austin Service manual a couple of weeks ago.
Following your excellent advice about reading WSMs, I have studied it with interest.

By reference to the "boot lid handle and lock" details - pdf page 51- it appears the my midget might be fitted with a pre 1954 boot handle from an A30?

The A30 WSM describes it as:
"Boot lock:
The lock is held in position by a recessed head screw
at each side and two more on the inner side of the boot
lid. The lock escutcheon is secured by two screws."
Unfortunately there's no diagram but maybe Gary can shed some light on it?

Being over 65 years old my boot handle is probably an extremely rare and valuable object worth considerably more than the rest of my car. I wish....
Peter Blockley

Peter,
I applaud your wise decision to read manuals.

However I feel I need to be cruel to be kind - sorry but you don't have an extremely rare and valuable object. I may be proved wrong but to me you have a standard Spridget boot handle 90 degrees out with added screws and holes, the A30 lock escutcheon secured by two screws I believe (no proof) is oval and not round as yours is.

Please don't ask me about Father Christmas or achievable mpg of modern German cars.

Wonder what DaveO will say.
Nigel Atkins

This is the best picture I can find of my boot lock.

Not particularly clear, but definitely oval.


Dave O'Neill 2

Looks very purposeful - but what year is the car and are the boot lid and handle original type, if Peter has a high value item and this goes to court we could be up for libel.
Nigel Atkins

Slight deviation in subject matter, though connected as the handle in question is much the same as the Spridget boot handle.

On a MK1 Sprite, the bonnet securing handle at the front is like a boot handle, but without provision for the key. My question is, when correctly assembled is the T handle horizontal, or vertical when in the locked position? I had assumed vertical, to cut down on wind resistance and give additional streamlining**. But now fitted it looks wrong like that.


**Along the same logic lines, it is well known that the Spridget boot handle is horizontal when shut in order to provide extra downforce at the rear of the car when travelling at speed. Many high performance cars have since copied this early whale-tail design feature, just at slightly larger scale.
GuyW

No point in putting it on E-bay, then. I'll stick with what I've got as it's worked fine for the past 25 years or more.

I think Guy has cracked the orientation issue although I came to the same conclusion from a different angle.
Peter Blockley

Peter you have a built in towing hook or carrier bag hook.

I did wonder on seeing the key entrance whether you might also be using a Yale front door type key with it.

Any other distinctive features on your car, that you know of, making it easier to find in a field of red MGs?
Nigel Atkins

Isn't this archive wonderful? :)

I've finally got round to removing my boot lock to try to get it working.

The first thing I found was that it's shaft number is different from the ignition and doors, so must be a replacement.

After much researching on his old PCs (still running Windows 95!) my local locksmith identified the blank and cut a couple of keys according to the shaft number.

The keys go in OK but the cylinder wouldn't budge, being frozen at 1 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock. According to the locksmith, even the wrong key should generate some movement in the cylinder.

After copious doses of Plus Gas, I finally have movement. Sadly it's not a full 90 degrees so the lock's operating so I thought I'd better investigate further.

I tried Googling 'MG Midget Boot Lock Dismantled' and, lo and behold, landed on this thread! I'd completely forgotten contributing to it two years ago!

Jim Smith's photo is exactly what I was looking for, thanks Jim.

Now that I've got a better idea of the lock's innards I just keep going with the patience, persistence and Plus Gas and maybe, by the end of the weekend, I'll have a working lock!

Colin
C Mee

I always thought the ign/doors key were the same, and the boot different. 2 keys. That's how mine has been since I got it in 1977, and as far as I know the locks and boot handle were original then. But maybe someone had already changed the boot handle.

I too took my boot handle apart because the lock jammed. Same method as J Smith, but no pictures.
anamnesis

Yes, ignition and doors the same key, boot different (71 car) But I dismantled the boot lock and swapped the tumblers ( sliders) around plus a little filing so that it matched the ignition key.
And then there's the aftermarket locking fuel cap. Different again!
GuyW

Colin,
If it still won’t work I’m pretty sure I can find you a replacement with a key.

R.
richard b

Richard, that's a very kind offer.

I was spraying primer today so didn't want to get Plus Gas all over my hands so I haven't given it any attention today.

I don't think the lock's too far off releasing but I'll get back to you soon if I don't have any joy.

Colin
C Mee

As Guy and Anam says the boot key was a different number. Also, the ignition key usually had the squarish head while the head on the boot key was much more rectangular. Becomes somewhat academic after time as most keys fit most locks!
Ray
Ray Rowsell

Colin,
I've gone off PlusGas a bit now as I'm not sure it's as good as it used to be I often use GT85 now as not only is it a penetrating releasing fluid it's also a good lubricant as it has PFTE, and smells nice. GT85 -https://gt85.co.uk/
Nigel Atkins

" -- has PFTE, and smells nice. GT85 -""

Plus it has a slick advertising video. 😁
anamnesis

You might be thinking of another product.

I did have a look on the site for a video and saw I could win a free can so registered, the heavy-duty, lockable, 6-drawer Teng toolbox might be useful too.
Nigel Atkins

I use Ferrosol - works very well and has a nice smell !

https://bilthamber.com/product/ferrosol/

R.
richard b

>>I've gone off PlusGas a bit now as I'm not sure it's as good as it used to be<<

Dang...
I just bought two cans.
Greybeard

Grey,
I could well be wrong, very often am, as I've absolutely no proof.

Following Richard's recommendation I will give Ferrosol a try though as only last weekend my mate said the company is British. I'd still buy GT85 for general use if I see it at £2 a can again though. Doh, I've not dun it agen 'ave I.

Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 27/11/2020 and 25/05/2022

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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