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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Brakes - modern traffic

I've recently completed a Heritage rebuild and quite honestly i had forgotten how much pedal pressure was required to full up quickly.(had midgets as daily drivers in the 70's)
Most of my driving is done in modern fairly quick euroboxes with superb brakes that require little pressure (ABS/EBD/BrakeAssist etc). The problem is it takes a while to retrain the brain / foot that you need to stamp on the pedal in an emergency - which can be too late !

So what is the best upgrade for a roadcar with a warm engine - add a servo or a 9" upgrade - Peter May etc.
Do the bigger brakes actually give a good bite or only resist fade when usung continually i.e tracks etc. Fade is not the issue as its only a road car.

Iam only too aware of the slippery slope (as Anthony C calls it)when modifying of where do you end.

Richard.
richard boobier

Richard, much as I don't like servos, I think in your case a servo and Mintex 1144 front pads would give you close to what you are looking for.

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

>>>>>>Iam only too aware of the slippery slope (as Anthony C calls it)when modifying of where do you end.<<<<<


And thats a problem because.......? LOL, Is so hard to never stop modifying, If I did, Id have to get a girlfriend, to fill the time and have something to do with the wads of extra cash...LOL

Prop
Prop

Braking efficiency is determined by the grip of your tyres so bigger disks etc do nothing to help the car stop in normal driving. However brake upgrades of one kind or another do change the feel of the pedal from push like billy ho to lock the wheels to a more modern feel.
The best I have found for the modern feeling was when I added a servo. Marvelous easy upgrade that make stepping out of a modern car into my Midget a pleasure.

By the way when you say daily driver did you mean everyday transport, I assume that is what you meant?
Bob (Robert) Midget Turbo

But seriouly,

I went with tilton engineering and got a hole new pedal assembly with 3 master cyl. one for the front brakes, one for the rear, and one for the clutch...Definatly one of my favorite mods, and was a 80 banger inprovement over the old brakes, not to mention, I havent done anything to them scence and that was almost 4 years ago...so know I am looking forward to doing the spitfire rotor w/MGB caliper big brake mod later next year...to complete the illuosion.


http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=13&m=b


Prop
Prop

I know it's not popular these days when, at least
here in the US of A, you ain't driving unless
you can read fine print on the newspaper in
the back of the car ahead of you --- the
easiest way to improve your braking is to
drop back a car length or so. You do not need
to wrap your tongue around any soft parts of
the driver ahead.

chuck
c c

CC.

Thats a great idea in theory, but it wont work in big city driving....must large trucks only need 3 feet to muscle in between you and the car in front of you, But yes I TRY to employe the 3 sec. rule ...but midgets W/O modifyied brakes should use the 13 sec. rule.

prop
Prop

CC,

I cannot control the driving of others - therefore regardless of what distance i try to maintain from others - cutting in / lane changing and braking at the last minute etc is the norm in GB.

Good brakes are therefore essential - dropping back does NOT improve YOUR braking - unless you have invented new laws of Physics.

Bob, yes i did mean that a Midget was my only car in the 70's - reread post !

Looks like a servo is the way forward - thanks Bob and Mark.

R.

richard boobier

have the front line 10" and upgraded master on mine and a big improvement but you do need to move up to 14" wheels to get them in, before that had the 9" upgrade kit and even that small step in size had huge effects on the penal from the standard brakes. Would recommend both kits dependent on wheels
Alex Sturgeon

Braking efficiency is determined by the weight of the car and the braking torque at the wheel.

Whether or not your car can exploit more braking torque does come down to tyres and the grip of the road surface as Bob says.

A servo does give the car the same feel of modern car braking.

Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Richard,
depending on your state of tune you may be better spending your money on some decent discs, pads & aeroquip lines. Make sure that the rear brakes are in good order, especially the drums, having round ones makes a big difference.
A servo will loose some of the pedal feel, you may not like it, if your used to enthusiastic driving.
I've just upgraded to 9" brakes from grooved Tarox discs(i think), but only because the modifications to the rest of the car warrant it.
Brad


Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Got to agree with Daniel, the feel with a servo is far nearer to that of a modern car so that swapping vehicles is definitely easier. Just don't forget that there's no ABS!
When I first got the frog it had a weird master cylinder (mini) with a servo, converted to a Mk4 system and removed the servo, two weeks later I put the servo back on again!
Graham
Graham P 1330 Frogeye

indeed just use a servo and all wil be fine

good std midget brakes are fine for road use(track is a diffrent story)
so put in a servo and perhaps a nice set of modernbrake pads (greenstuff)

Onno Könemann

So, are remote servos common in England? The only place I have noticed them here has been on MGCs. Will they work with the dual-circuit brakes? How do you size them?
David "full of questions" Lieb
David Lieb

A servo is 'sized' by the diameter of the diagraphm. Some early Minis had them along with Austin (America to you) 1300 GTs. I think the E-type may have had a massive remote servo.

They weren't that common on 60s-70s cars and existed because combined servo master cylinders hadn't been invented yet or required to big a re-engineer to fit. It's also possible that with the UK car market being so far advanced with front wheel drive cars they had an issue with finding room for a combined servo-master so fitted remotely to begin with.

Or how about why are they so scare on American cars?
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Because American cars had room for them on the firewall as part of the master cylinder. Power brakes are ubiquitous, but remote servos are unusual. I would think it is far more efficient to have it all as one assembly. Integrated servos have been pretty much standard on most American cars since some time in the 60's, I believe. Lots of wasted space under the bonnet of most American V8s, so retrofitting was not a big deal. Besides, any excuse for a re-design.
David "Now how about dual circuit?" Lieb
David Lieb

How about, because American cars only go in straight lines & they don't have roundabouts :-)
Brad
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Brad,
I fail to see any relevance to that in the issue of whether British cars used a kludgy remote servo brake system on a regular basis ;-)

Besides, we do have roundabouts. No, nothing like the Swidon magic circle, but there are at least three of them in the area where I live. The biggest is known as "Suicide Circle". It is apparently designed to make people dismiss the concept of roundabouts. There are three streets meeting. At each of the six entrances there is a stop sign. The centre of the circle is quite small, yet there are two lanes around it. I guess the inner lane is for people who never intend to get off of the circle. At any given time, you can assume that at least two of the entrances are people who have never seen a roundabout before and have no clue what is supposed to happen next.
David "I hear Boston has a lot of roundabouts..." Lieb
David Lieb

Wasn't it Herbert Austin who said when talking about the brakes on the Austin 7 "that poor brakes makes for more skilled drivers" or something like that.
As for me, with advancing years and lengthening reaction times, I am one of the keep your distance school and still keep up with the traffic flow.

During my time in the army, the standard 3 ton truck was an Austin with as far as I know, unassisted hydraulic braking. These were changed with the then new Bedford RL with very efficient air brakes.

Gues which type of truck had the most accidents.

Yeah, right! - the Bedfords

Dave
Penwithian

We just got a round about almost a year ago....and are exactly as david descibes, only we got rid of the stop signs and installed on/off stop lights....we are just now seeing a decrease in the amount of head on crashes..at 1st, 5 a day was avg. now about 1 every 2 weeks, but I imagine thats because of the on and off stop light they installed at the 6 round about entrances, but gez it takes forever to get thur luckly no one killed yet...

prop
Prop

Prop / David,
i wasjust having a cheap shot as i know how you lot drive from my time teaching Americians engineering.
To be honest i think your brave driving a spridget on Anerican roads, but i'm not going to say that outloud.
The brits use remote servos as the engine bays are smaller & space is at a premium.
cheers
Brad
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Brad,
No fears, I have gotten aclimatized by watching Clarkson. I almost fainted a couple of weeks ago when he said nice things about the Vette, the Caddy, and the Dodge.
David "time for another episode" Lieb
David Lieb

David,
so your almost an expat then, an American with a sense of humour is is enough to get homeland security deport you :-)
cheers
Brad
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

I always wanted to vist cuba

prop
Prop

Prop, take a look at this site.

Some very interesting Historic Transporters here too....

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3270/2804058328_b305f1076d.jpg

Not mine I must add.....

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

So, I guess if you wish to retain your dual circuit brakes, you install two servos? Must be fun trying to find room!
David "crowded engine bay" Lieb
David Lieb

Aston AM V8 and BMW 2002 are two cars that I have seen fitted with two servos, so I guess you're right on that David.

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

I dont know david,

That sounds like a world of hurt and in the end you still got a lucas system with a sevo

If your going that direction, Id take a saterday at the salvage yard looking a jap cars with a similar duel master brkae cly. hooked up to a servo....

I had strongly considarded using the set up in my yoyota truck before doing the tilton....give me a few minutes, and Ill get some pics for you...I always felt it was a good set up for a midget.

Hey Mark,

Im really hoping castro dies off to hede's soon, with obama in the white house, the wall will finally fall down, when that happens, I cant wait to go to cuba and see all the cool cars from back in the day,,,they say its a time warp, not to mention all the cool modification they have come up with to keep all those old cars driving...that will be a great trip...cuban cigars for all when that day comes.

prop

Prop

I don't think the braking system is Lucas Prop?

Is there something stopping you going to Cuba now? have you ever been outside the USA before?
Bob (Robert) Midget Turbo

the brake system in a midget is not lucas??? BMC then.


I never have been to Cuba, (except cuba Mo.) Its illeagal for regular americans to go to Cuba, I think its 6 years in the poky if caught, Only news media and politicans can go...but you can do it illeagly by going to canada and catching a cuise to cuba or going to mexico and bribing mexico and cuba officals to let you travel...gee thank JFK.

unfortantly I have never been outside the USA, but I have seen almost every state,,,,washinton, oragan, north dekota, Fla. and those little states just out side of new york ...rhoad island, vermont, mass. conneticute.

But if I ever grow tired of spending money on the midget, Im definatly coming to the uk for a couple of weeks then off to the baltan states, provided russia dosnt close back down...then finish off in denmark to see arie...but thats seveal years away.

prop
Prop

Sorry,
those states i mentioned are the one I have NOT been to in the lower 48

prop
Prop

Prop, I think you'll find Arie in Holland NOT Denmark, unless he has tried to escape there, knowing you are trying to track him down.... lol

If you visit the UK, you will be made very welcome here in Yorkshire... :-)

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

here is the pics of my duel master brake cly. with servo...its an idea, it will take some work, but not as bad as the lucas / BMC IMPO.

yeah, Im showing off...I got paid in cash today...LOL.

prop


Prop

and another pic for david


Prop

My guess is the brake pedal goes into the servo


Prop

and finally the last photo...granted I know there will be piston size issues ect.,,,but you can see where I am going

Thank you Mark, I appericate that...I keep getting denmark and hollend confused...lol

prop
Prop

duh!!! for got the photo


Prop

This thread was discussed between 06/12/2008 and 08/12/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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