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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - clutch or gear problem

Hi all
Just cleaned my Migdet 1500 that was sad and dirty in the garage. Charged the flat battery. Used 1st and reverse gear (no problem) to get her in position to go for a run to charge the battery...and then my parade was rained on.
I cant get the gear into any position. Clutch may have gone but feels normal. When the car is switched off I can go into all the gears. I try to start it in 1st in position already with the clutch down it jumps like I've forgotten to put the clutch down.
AHHHH!
Any clues and the cost involved? Technically I am abit rubbish

Car looks brilliant...shame she had to be embarrassingly pushed back into the garage!!!
T Byrne

Obviously mate (T for trev? tony? whatever?) your clutch is not working is it.

This can be either a mechanical prtoblem (Clutch and arm itself) or a hydraulic one.

First check to see if you have fluid in the clutch master cylinder?

Whilst you are checking that did you see any fluid on the ground under the car?

Then report back for the next piece of diagnostics please.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Greetings,

It sounds like the clutch disk is frozen either to the flywheel or pressure plate. Have someone operate the clutch pedal while you watch underneath for movement of the slave cylinder & clutch arm. If they move than the problem is probably a frozen disc. Try starting the car in 4th gear with the pedal depressed, this may free the disk (best done outside with nothing near the car in case it jumps suddenly). Sometimes it will free by rocking the car back & forth with the pedal depressed, sometimes it will require pulling the engine. Patience is a plus. Good luck.

Stan
SK Kowznofski

check for clutch fluid and bleed. Then check if clutch slave cylinder is working, If its been lying up that is what I would check firstly
Declan
D M McGinley

It'll just be a stuck clutch. Whilst standing for a length of time the clutch centre plate may or will stick to the flywheel and pressure plate.

It's usually easy to free off.
Firstly, warm the engine up fully, when this is done, try the clutch again. It it's still stuck, IF you can take it out for a drive....! Yep, that's what I said... With the engine NOT running, place the car into first gear (this is after you have pushed it onto the road and have a clear road ahead...), put your foot down on the clutch, start the engine and you'll be off. It may clear at this stage. If it's still stuck, keep driving with you foot still on the clutch and now jab the brakes on and keep doing this until it frees off.

I'm sure by now, you should have the problem sorted, if not, you are not being brave enough.... :-)

Good luck,
Mark
Mark T. Boldry

How can the clutch plate be stuck when it has already operated a couple of times getting it out of the garage? or have I mis read?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

No Bob, maybe you are right and it could be lack of fluid, perhaps I have mis read....

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

I think he pushed in & out in neutral.
SK Kowznofski

"....Used 1st and reverse gear (no problem)..."
those words totally clear and unambiguous to me, there is now a clutch problem, prob hydraulic.
David Smith

Hi all

T is for Tim

Checked the fluid in the clutch master cylinder and it is about 3cm below the lip of the top of it.

To clarify things, once we got the battery charged and the engine to turn over I left it to run for about 10 mins. Reduced the choke and left her ticking over nicely.

I did use the gears/clutch afew times to do a 3 point turn to get the car to face the right direction. All set to go and then disaster. The clutch can be depressed but for the life of me I couldnt get it into any gear.

When the engine is switched off, I was able to put her into any gear...but not whilst the engine is on

I tried starting her in 1st and 2nd by switching the engine on whilst the clutch was depressed and it lept forward as if I had started the car in gear without using the clutch

Thats about it

Hope that makes it clearer?
T Byrne

OK Tim, however I fear it is get hands dirty time. If I remember rightly you can not see the clutch actuating arm on a 1500 midget so I think you need somehow to confirm the clutch slave cylinder is operating when you push the clutch down. I think the cylinder has to be withdrawn from the engine/gearbox back plate do you think you can do this? Hopefully a 1500 person will clarify that for you.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi Tim

The first thing I would check is the pin that the actuating arm pivots on, this is just a push fit using a strange spring type sleeve in the bellhousing and can fall out. I think you can see it from below the car it may just need pushing back in if you haven,t found it on the floor. See parts 65 and 66.

Good luck Carl


C Bintcliffe

God nightmare. I am technically challenged and will need to find a man who can. why cant it be straight forward?
T Byrne

Ive had so much advice Im even more confused. Any final wordsfrom anyone?
T Byrne

Tim
I would agree with the comment that your problem is not a stuck clutch plate as this normaly happens when the car has not been moved for a while and you said that you moved yours back and forth before it stopped working. It is most likely part of the actuating arm or the slave cylinder. I would suspect the actuating arm because of the sudden nature of the failure. It is an easy job to remove the slave cylinder without disconnecting any of the hydraulics. you should be able to see if this is leaking once it is free. you should also be able feel the pin that it pushes against, check this to see if it feels attached to the arm. The pin that the arm pivots on is on the opposite side of the bellhousing (See photo)it will either be hanging down (your best hope) or possibly missing altogether. It may be possible to to get the pin back in I am not sure, if there is anything else wrong with the mechanism it may be an engine out job! Not as bad as it sounds for someone who knows what they are doing. If the hydraulics had failed I would of expected it to get gradually worse rather than failing in an instant, have you tried pumping the pedal a few times before trying to select a gear? If this works it will be a hydraulic problem. The slave cylinder is not too difficult to change but fun and games to bleed properly(check the archives or just ask the question again).

Whatever it is keep us informed, you are in the best place on this bbs to get you through this problem.

Good luck Carl
C Bintcliffe

Tim, it's not the transmission and the clutch plate is not frozen to the flywheel.

Possibly, and it's a bit of a long shot, but there could have been some rust inside the bore of the slave cylinder and by activating it when depressing the clutch pedal you could have ruined the rubber seals allowing fluid to by pass the seals.

This problem more than likely won't be difficult to isolate, just a pain to rectify.
Clive Reddin

Tim:

< I try to start it in 1st in position already with the clutch down it jumps like I've forgotten to put the clutch down >

That's your best clue: Your slave cylinder is not actuating the clutch fork. It's either frozen or leaking, I bet leaking.

< The pin that the arm pivots on is on the opposite side of the bellhousing (See photo)it will either be hanging down (your best hope) or possibly missing altogether > IMO this is either very unlikely or extremely unlikely.

The more you try to use the clutch, the lower the fluid in the M/C will go, not to mention the puddle under the car. The good news is the clutch slave cylinder is relatively easy to swap out. You need to have a SAFE method of raising the car somewhat (see my method, X4, image below, raises the car an extra 6 inches, plenty of room to work around), that will be half the battle. After that, read the manuals, browse the archives, put your goggles on and go for it.

< Technically I am abit rubbish >

I didn't know jack when I bought my 1979, I've now pulled the engine and transmission several times and she runs sweet. Don't worry if the slave cylinder's not the problem, it's only 34 Quid, and you are gonna need one soon enough anyway :) . Good luck.

R


Richard 1979 1500

On the 1500, the clutch fork pivot pin that Carl mentions dropping out is a fairly common fault. The clutch will even still partially operate with the pin missing as the fork then pivots against the edge of the bell housing.

The pin is an interference fit in the casing and I think that to properly replace it is an engine-out job. But you can use a smaller diameter bolt which you can insert in situ. I used a coach bolt with the large flat head at the top to stop it dropping out. Lasted like that for years.

The other easy thing to check is the clamp arrangement that holds the slave cylinder. If it has come loose then pressing the clutch pedal may just be moving the cylinder. The clamp has 2 bolts which fasten it to the bell housing, and then a pinch bolt which secures the cylinder. There is a groove on the cylinder to keep it aligned. Just check that all 3 are tight.

All of the above can be checked quite easily just by looking. Jack the car up, support it well on axle stands or ramps and use a torch so you can see properly.

And - "fluid 3cm down" - that is quite low for a system "at rest" It should be right up to the base of the filler neck at the forward edge. Much lower than this and you risk getting air into the system.
Guy Weller

I just went through this with my 1500. We replaced the whole clutch (overkill) and it ended up to be the rubber in the MC. There were no overt leaks, just air bubbles in the red plastic line from the MC to the slave. The MC rebuild kit is about 8.00 USD. If the day is sunny, it's easier to see the air bubbles. At first, a large air bubble was visible. After I replaced the rubber in the MC, the air looked more like soda bubbles. Finally got the line bled and all is right again. Start with the simple explanations and move to the more complex. See the thread on the general board 1500 clutch pedal slack. Hope this helps...
Lynda Milne 1979 Midget

I think you guys are superb. I am terrified in fixing the problem. Scared of the unknown!! But I guess that goes with having a 30+ year old car

Thanks
I will keep you posted. I wont be doing anything until the weather perks up and have quite afew commitments over the next few weekends.

Before I get stuck in is there anything I need to do whilst she sleeps in the garage?
Tim
T Byrne

< On the 1500, the clutch fork pivot pin that Carl mentions dropping out is a fairly common fault >

I stand corrected, and defer to the collective knowledge of the tribe. I must say I have driven that pin in and out several times I am astounded to hear it could actually slip out over time in normal usage. Maybe mine just fits tighter than most : ) .

< The clamp has 2 bolts which fasten it to the bell housing, and then a pinch bolt which secures the cylinder. There is a groove on the cylinder to keep it aligned. >

Yes: if the pinch bolt was installed bottom-up as opposed to top-down in the clamp the nut could loosen and the bolt slide free, then the slave cylinder when stepping on the clutch petal could have moved backwards in the clamp making it unable to actuate the bearing pivot arm.

< Checked the fluid in the clutch master cylinder and it is about 3cm below the lip of the top >

Find the leak, fix the problem?

R
Richard 1979 1500

Just on another tack.. Has the clutch fluid hydraulic flexable pipe collapsed? I have know this to cause similar symptoms and will cost very little in time and money to replace...

Mark.
Mark T. Boldry

>>> Have someone operate the clutch pedal while you watch underneath for movement of the slave cylinder & clutch arm. <<<

Not with the 1500 - the pushrod and arm are internal on the 1500.

>>> Has the clutch fluid hydraulic flexable pipe collapsed? <<<

That flex pipe is a pretty hard plastic. Not sure if it COULD collapse.

The only problem that I've had with my clutch in nearly 14 years of ownership was when the seal in the slave cylinder failed, due to corrosion in the bore. I was able to hone out the rough bit, and rebuilt it with a new seal and dust boot. It's worked fine for several years now. And as Lynda implied above, getting the thing bled when you're done can be a challenge.

Best of luck... if you're reluctant to do it yourself, there are BBS members located all over the UK. You may be able to locate somebody near your neck of the woods who can drop in and have a look.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Sound as a pound. It seems I need to get dirty under the car and start inpecting. The collective knowledge of the tribe seems to be suggesting that it is potentially a leakage issue linked to the MC or the slave cylinder? Of course it could be a range of things

But it seems that less of you feel its a gear related issue.
I'm hoping for the cheapest option to be the solution!!!
Would I be right in suggetsing that based on the given information it is likely to be, in the balance of things to be clutch rather than gear?
T Byrne

Hi everyone
Thanks for the advice. On closer inspection there is a leak of some description under the clutch and brake peddles. A browny black oil is on the carpet. From my newly acquired knowledge I am isolating the issue and it looks like (based on your information) a slave cylinder issue. So I guess next steps is buying a new one to replace or could it be an old washer replacement / rebuild?
?
I havent accessed any of the photos people have sent through can it be possible for those kind people to forward them directly to my email address???
T Byrne

Tim, it's not transmission or clutch mechanicals related, but it's in the clutch hydraulic system for sure.

Your clutch master cylinder could also be leaking as well from what you have described. This is located up by the firewall on the right hand side and is the smaller of the two cylinders there.

What you can do is take off the cover over the pedals and feel the bottom of the clutch/brake cylinders where the push rods enter the cylinder. See which one is wet as it could be either of them leaking.

It's not an overly difficult repair, more of a PITA trying to get all the air out of the system.

Do you have a repair manual for your car? Moss Motors offer a free parts catalogue and if you don't have one, I really recommend you get one. It shows exploded diagrams of the various systems on your car and can make understanding something a lot easier.

Depending on the age of the parts on the car, replacing either of the cylinders separately might be a false economy as sooner or later you will be replacing the part you didn't change and are back to bleeding the system all over again. Might as well change both and be free of any problems for a long time.

Clive Reddin

Thanks again
I will get in touch with Moss. I do have a Hayes book which I have been looking at. The problem with Hayes is that some of the black and white photos arent that clear. So the Moss Catalogue sounds a good way to go.

Cheers all
T Byrne

Tim
if you have fluid on your carpet, I am afraid that you have to forget slave cylinder issues and look into the master cylinder as the source of the brown oily gunge.

That will not be likely to have leaked INTO the car from any of the other places. The clutch slave will dump under the car (eventually) but not into the floor area'

and the Brake slaves(wheel cylinders or calipers) likewise.

Take off the cover under the bonnet and check the area of the pedalbox for leaked fluid, I am pretty sure you will find a source of oily brown...

have a look and tell us what you find

You CAN find problems at both ends, the master and slaves have been on the car for the same length of time, generally.
Bill

Tim,
I would agree with Clive. Once you have confirmed master cylinder is faulty, renew the slave one too as, sure as eggs is eggs, it will otherwise fail within the year. Good luck
GrahamMV

Give up. I bow down to the superiority of the group. I am unable to get to the car over the next few weeks and I feel that my 'well meant' but ignorant tinkering will only cause more damage. I am unfortunately located between mg specialists. The nearest one is about 15 miles away. As you can appreciate, I cant drive the car!
Do they offer a collection fee (and then diagnosis/repair...one hopes!)

Or does anyone know of someone in the Liverpool area- ex old school who can fix a MG job of this nature?

What price are we talking? How long is a piece of string! I know! Any help appreciated
T Byrne

Tim, the repair itself isn't difficult. You can change both the cylinders yourself. The bleeding part can be a PITA but on a difficulty scale of 1-10 I'd rate this as a 1 or 2 at the max!
Clive Reddin

This thread was discussed between 18/01/2009 and 27/01/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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