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MG Midget and Sprite Technical Comment RE: inboard front wheel bearing radius BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Comment RE: inboard front wheel bearing radius
| Hi, all. I just finished replacing my brake drums and disks... the old ones looked okay, but who knows how long they'd been in there; plus Moss had a good sale on brakes and suspension stuff recently. When removing the front hubs, I noticed first that the bearings, which I'd replaced a few years ago, were running quite sweetly... smooth and quiet, with no play at all. Based on previous experience, I had my three-jaw hub puller handy... and to my surprise, both hubs slipped right off the stub axles effortlessly, and the inner bearings stayed together. My guess is that I got a good set of bearings, with the proper radius on the inboard inner races; and it makes me wonder if an improper radius is what causes some inboard inner races to bind, pulling the bearing apart when the hub is removed. Whatever the case, it sure made the job easier. I just got back from a pleasant evening test drive, bedding in the brakes. They felt fine. Cheers, -:G:- |
| Gryf Ketcherside |
| Which make(supplier) of bearings were(are) they Gryf? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Just found my box of stuff that you don't chuck out that you've replaced and I have two separated inner wheel bearings that are original RHP bearings. I guess the reason they separate is more to do with the condition / tolerances / wear on you stub axles rather than the quality of the bearing. It also states in the original BMC workshop sprite MK1 manual that the inner bearing race can get left on the axle when removing the hub so you may have to use a bearing removal tool.So the issue of inner bearings getting left behind was always there from day one. |
| Ed H |
| Exactly so, and if you polish the stub axle until the bearing is a light push fit with no hammer boogers on it, you will not ever have the problem of stuck bearings. It is a simple matter of tolerance variation - high side stub axles are tight, especially if you get low side bearings, but the bearings are much closer and are not the problem. FRM9+++++++++++++++++++*--------999999999999999999999999999999999* |
| FR Millmore |
| Interesting stuff! Sounds like I got lucky... I think these are Quinton Hazell; not sure, they've been on there a few years. -:G:- |
| Gryf Ketcherside |
| Even my cat has comments now - he did the sig! His food dish is low so he walks around on my keyboard. FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Ed, any news on the wheel bearings that you bought? |
| Robin Cohen |
| Oh GOD !!! NOT AGIAN !!!!...didnt we just do a 400 posting comments on bearings like 6 weeks ago Cant we just talk about muffler carbon instead...we have discussed bearings so often over the past 3 years we should be entitled to MIT honary doctrate degrees for the science of bearing engeneering advancemnts and design flaw analizis Please make it stop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Gryf Ketcherside, Missouri, USA, |
| FR Millmore |
| Which make(supplier) of bearings were(are) they Gryf? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Just found my box of stuff that you don't chuck out that you've replaced and I have two separated inner wheel bearings that are original RHP bearings. I guess the reason they separate is more to do with the condition / tolerances / wear on you stub axles rather than the quality of the bearing. It also states in the original BMC workshop sprite MK1 manual that the inner bearing race can get left on the axle when removing the hub so you may have to use a bearing removal tool.So the issue of inner bearings getting left behind was always there from day one. |
| Ed H |
| Exactly so, and if you polish the stub axle until the bearing is a light push fit with no hammer boogers on it, you will not ever have the problem of stuck bearings. It is a simple matter of tolerance variation - high side stub axles are tight, especially if you get low side bearings, but the bearings are much closer and are not the problem. FRM9+++++++++++++++++++*--------999999999999999999999999999999999* |
| FR Millmore |
| Interesting stuff! Sounds like I got lucky... I think these are Quinton Hazell; not sure, they've been on there a few years. -:G:- |
| Gryf Ketcherside |
| Even my cat has comments now - he did the sig! His food dish is low so he walks around on my keyboard. FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Ed, any news on the wheel bearings that you bought? |
| Robin Cohen |
| Oh GOD !!! NOT AGIAN !!!!...didnt we just do a 400 posting comments on bearings like 6 weeks ago Cant we just talk about muffler carbon instead...we have discussed bearings so often over the past 3 years we should be entitled to MIT honary doctrate degrees for the science of bearing engeneering advancemnts and design flaw analizis Please make it stop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop- Go fix your car and you will not see it! FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Lost your bearings Prop? lol |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Prop, remember, this is a HOBBY. We do it because it is interesting, and it passes the time. Attention to these details is what created these cars in the first place, and has lead to the kind of advice that is able to help folks keeping them on the road since then. As it turns out, this area is one of particular interest because the original designer took a unique approach, so there are challenges that have come up in recent years, as the OE parts supply has neared exhaustion, that has made it particularly difficult to find easy answers, and the challenge of finding them has made is especially rewarding to work at it. Norm |
| Norm Kerr |
| Norm well said thats what this is all about. |
| b bithell |
| What goes round, comes around..... |
| Pete Ottewell |
| Robin In answer to your question havn't fitted the new bearings yet but will let everyone know if they do work............ Ed |
| Ed H |
| The answer is really simple.... Taper bearings or 40 degree angular contact bearings with brass races... ither set works, and not that expensive....way less then $100 per wheel Yepp, it really is that simple....problem solved !!! Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| My guess is that you don't read all the posts in the threads Prop. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Prop, can you just give me the part numbers that I need for the correct bearings, with the correct radius and the correct face adjusted set up. I haven't got the time or patience to try to find it in the last HUGE thread. Ed, we all eagerly await news from your shed. I bet changing the wheel bearings on your Austin 7 is a lot easier! ld |
| Robin Cohen |
| Hey robin I dont have the code #s for the taper bearings but sgould be easy enough to google For the 40 degree angular contact bearings with brass races the code #s are for koyo so you should be able to cross referance at a good bearing disturbuter with yiur favorite brand 7205BGC3 FY S0807 7303BGC3 FY S0805 And the seal is from SKF # 13649 The piediomite races are ungoddly expensive and where designed for crossive and subzero enviroments...but the brass is perfect for our applications and the price is right Give me a bit and ill see if i can track down a how to artical |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Here is the how to artical for the 40 degree angular contact bearing..the code #s referanced are for the pedomite races, but a good bearing shop should be able to cross referance to brass and the various manufacture97 |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Lost your bearings Prop? lol |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Prop, remember, this is a HOBBY. We do it because it is interesting, and it passes the time. Attention to these details is what created these cars in the first place, and has lead to the kind of advice that is able to help folks keeping them on the road since then. As it turns out, this area is one of particular interest because the original designer took a unique approach, so there are challenges that have come up in recent years, as the OE parts supply has neared exhaustion, that has made it particularly difficult to find easy answers, and the challenge of finding them has made is especially rewarding to work at it. Norm |
| Norm Kerr |
| Norm well said thats what this is all about. |
| b bithell |
| What goes round, comes around..... |
| Pete Ottewell |
| Robin In answer to your question havn't fitted the new bearings yet but will let everyone know if they do work............ Ed |
| Ed H |
| The answer is really simple.... Taper bearings or 40 degree angular contact bearings with brass races... ither set works, and not that expensive....way less then $100 per wheel Yepp, it really is that simple....problem solved !!! Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| My guess is that you don't read all the posts in the threads Prop. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Prop, can you just give me the part numbers that I need for the correct bearings, with the correct radius and the correct face adjusted set up. I haven't got the time or patience to try to find it in the last HUGE thread. Ed, we all eagerly await news from your shed. I bet changing the wheel bearings on your Austin 7 is a lot easier! ld |
| Robin Cohen |
| Hey robin I dont have the code #s for the taper bearings but sgould be easy enough to google For the 40 degree angular contact bearings with brass races the code #s are for koyo so you should be able to cross referance at a good bearing disturbuter with yiur favorite brand 7205BGC3 FY S0807 7303BGC3 FY S0805 And the seal is from SKF # 13649 The piediomite races are ungoddly expensive and where designed for crossive and subzero enviroments...but the brass is perfect for our applications and the price is right Give me a bit and ill see if i can track down a how to artical |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Here is the how to artical for the 40 degree angular contact bearing..the code #s referanced are for the pedomite races, but a good bearing shop should be able to cross referance to brass and the various manufactures Good luck Prop http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgcc/midgetreg/Frontwheelbearings.shtml |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| "7205BGC3 FY S0807 7303BGC3 FY S0805" Hi Prop. If those bearings, (above) are the correct bearings, with the correct 2mm inner radius on the inner -7205- bearing, and are so cheap, how come you didn't bother to post them on the long thread? Is the 7205BGC3 FY S0807 a 2mm radius? Robin, the part numbers Prop has listed weren't given in the other long thread. Also, If you don't read it, or one of the others, you won't understand the problem, or understand that there might not be a problem simply buying them locally. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I didnt flow the long thread all that much... It just bored me to tears not to mention there are many MANY other long threads talking the exact same info in the arcives Im "assuming" with great confidance that the code #s i posted are correct as i had a bearing engineer at IBT bearing cross referance them from pidiomite to brass Another option for using the so called orginal bearing that bill young came up with and more and more people are employing is o simply grind off the small edge of the bearing and the bearing then completely sits and works fine....that my not be coushier but for so little that is removed...its not really an issue Just a thought Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| "I didnt flow the long thread all that much... It just bored me to tears not to mention there are many MANY other long threads talking the exact same info in the arcives" Well that says it all Prop. "I didnt flow the long thread all that much.." Hence since you don't know what's in it, you have no idea if the "exact same" information can be found in earlier threads. Let me tell, you it can't. Of course, you'll have to read it all to find that out. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Robin Re your comment "I bet changing the wheel bearings on your Austin 7 is a lot easier!" Apart from the inner race getting stuck! the layout is exactly the same, large innner roller bearing then spacer then smaller outer bearing. The design is from 1923 so I guess they worked on the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' method and applied the same design to the spridget 30 years later. It works too I have yet to buy a new front bearing for the 7 as the old ones are still perfect even if they are 80 years old, this despite the fact the car has had a not so gentle life of races, hillclimbs and lots of trialling. Still not tackled the Frogs bearings yet but will update as soon as new bearings go in hopfully with no play ;-) Ed |
| Ed H |
| "7205BGC3 FY S0807 7303BGC3 FY S0805" Hi Prop. If those bearings, (above) are the correct bearings, with the correct 2mm inner radius on the inner -7205- bearing, and are so cheap, how come you didn't bother to post them on the long thread? Is the 7205BGC3 FY S0807 a 2mm radius? Robin, the part numbers Prop has listed weren't given in the other long thread. Also, If you don't read it, or one of the others, you won't understand the problem, or understand that there might not be a problem simply buying them locally. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I didnt flow the long thread all that much... It just bored me to tears not to mention there are many MANY other long threads talking the exact same info in the arcives Im "assuming" with great confidance that the code #s i posted are correct as i had a bearing engineer at IBT bearing cross referance them from pidiomite to brass Another option for using the so called orginal bearing that bill young came up with and more and more people are employing is o simply grind off the small edge of the bearing and the bearing then completely sits and works fine....that my not be coushier but for so little that is removed...its not really an issue Just a thought Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| "I didnt flow the long thread all that much... It just bored me to tears not to mention there are many MANY other long threads talking the exact same info in the arcives" Well that says it all Prop. "I didnt flow the long thread all that much.." Hence since you don't know what's in it, you have no idea if the "exact same" information can be found in earlier threads. Let me tell, you it can't. Of course, you'll have to read it all to find that out. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Robin Re your comment "I bet changing the wheel bearings on your Austin 7 is a lot easier!" Apart from the inner race getting stuck! the layout is exactly the same, large innner roller bearing then spacer then smaller outer bearing. The design is from 1923 so I guess they worked on the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' method and applied the same design to the spridget 30 years later. It works too I have yet to buy a new front bearing for the 7 as the old ones are still perfect even if they are 80 years old, this despite the fact the car has had a not so gentle life of races, hillclimbs and lots of trialling. Still not tackled the Frogs bearings yet but will update as soon as new bearings go in hopfully with no play ;-) Ed |
| Ed H |
| Hey lawerance, ill wait for the thread to go to DVD, i hear that dolf lundgrun wil play me in the mini series ....hahaha |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Hey Prop. How about a high noon shoot out. Go fer yer bearings, just as the clock hits 12. Tapers vs Balls. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I Cant ... I jambed my balls...hahaha |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I can hear the groans already, more about front wheel bearings. I decided to start pulling my loose hub with new bearings apart last night. After all the normal dramas with removal and stuck bearing races I got it apart. Some interesting finds; Radius on stub axle 2mm Radius on bearing that came off 2mm I used a decent Moore Large radius gauge to measure. The bearing that came off from memory was in a green & yellow box (Firstline ?) the bearing is marked 7205. I then checked my box of old bearings for comparison, grabbed a RHP 39LJT25 & measured the radius to my suprise radius reads 1mm ! Anyway will post further update once I have put on a new set of bearings and new distance piece. I'm also going to measure the sleeve in the hub to see how it compares to original spec / distance peice. Ed |
| Ed H |
| A further update just checked another genuine RHP 39LJT25 and the radius is 2mm. Possibly there were some variances back then ? Ed |
| Ed H |
| 'Props' favourite subject again !! Anyway fitted new bearings & spacer about 300miles ago and no issues whatsoever. Just for information I used a Kit from Bull Motive the moggy specialists. The bearings look the same as original RHP's (unlike the modern replacements which I took out ) I was very careful with the hub and did notice some bruising that could have made the bearings sit proud so dressed that to ensure the bearings sat flush. I used a new spacer and popped it all together, no play and still no play after 300+ miles on NSW roads which to put it frankly are crap (rough and full of potholes). So maybe the solution is these bearings or maybe it was a combination of ensuring hub faces were good and using a new spacer. Anyway maybe this will help a few of you guys out. Ed |
| Ed H |
| Ed, do you fancy reactivating the original long wheel bearing thread and posting that there? If the Bull Motive bearings are made to the same spec as the original RHP's, that scotches the suggestion that it isn't possible to make them so cheaply, and confirms exactly what Bull Motive told me, that they had an original set copied by a bearing manufacturer. So there's the final answer. Buy Bull Motive, if you can't get NOS RHP. |
| Lawrence Slater |
This thread was discussed between 17/08/2012 and 08/10/2012
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