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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Complete 1500 engine and box for sale

Hi, I'm in the process of doing a K series conversion to my 1500 midget (apologies to the purists). I Have for sale the complete engine and gearbox including alternator, new starter motor, 4 branch manifold including the whole exhaust system, (again as good as new) carbs with new needles, jets and K&N filters. Basically the whole job lot. The engine has done only 14,000 miles from new. It is still in the car at the moment so it can be started from cold etc. It doesn't smoke a bit as you would expect from an engine this young. Also for sale, 1500 wings if anyone is interested. I've got a trailer so could deliver for a bit of diesel money as long as it’s not too far away!
If anyone is interested just email me. I'm ready to remove it ASAP for anyone who wants it. Its still fitted purely so it can be seen running.

Cheers, Steve
Steve Hipkiss

Steve,

Just thought,

But, these cars seem to be in growing demand, esp. the 1500s as has been talked (debated) here, with the car only having 14,000 miles on the clock and almost new exaust system. that would be a real find for someone...

May I suggest selling the midget with the engine in place, and finding another engine-less 1500 shell for the K-series...Im sure there are plenty of those around


Prop
Prop

The thread has read like its the original engine which it isn't. Also it is far from original now as it has double wishbone telescopic shocks, uprated anti-roll bar, big brakes etc etc so its just waiting for the icing on the cake really.
Steve Hipkiss

Hi steve,

I may be interested, I have a 1275 car that has had most of the running gear removed, I was going to just look for a rotted out 1500 to do a full transplant of the running gear & loom.

Sorry to the purists but this would be the best unmodified setup with the most powerful standard engine of the range, the strongest original gearbox which has a synchro on 1st, the better 1275 suspension and ride hieght, RWA and chrome bumpers. What the 1500 midget should have been if it weren't for the american market!

This would be a great daily driver in my opinion, I do already have a rebuilt 1500 gearbox and twin su's but having spares can never hurt I guess. I would be looking to do this pretty cheaply and completely understand if you want to try the ebay route to see if you can get maximum profit but you may well get maximum hassle too :)

Email me with a price you have in mind and maybe we can come to some arrangement or a phone number so we can chat.

Dave
D Prince

Dave
the 1500 a better engine than the 1275
you realy make me laugh!
Onno Könemann

Now now Onno, lets check our facts before we start laughing to hard!

I might direct you to

http://www.mgmidgets.net/techdata.htm

Where you'll notice that AS STANDARD the 1500 midget is 2.7 secs quicker to 60 than the 1275, in anyones eyes this is a big difference!

I do understand that if you're modifying the engine then yes the 1275 is far better but straight from the box though the power is only 1 bhp more the torque is 84lb/ft as against the 1275's 72lb/ft again a significant increase.

Also remember the ease of driving in modern driving condition with a synchro on 1st, a big help! I have already spent thousands modifying a midget, this project is not for a track car but for a pleasant, convertible to use as a daily driver in modern road conditions. By using a 1275 shell and suspension you lose almost all of the negatives of the 74-75 revisions, better ride hieght, better handling, less weight and no bumper mounts to chop off!

Everyone has their own opinions and thats why I love this board so much, long may it remain :)
D Prince

I drive thousands of miles in moder trafic with a ribcase and never felt the need for a syncro on 1st
But then again i said nothing about the gearbox.
i love it but i can understand the need for a OD/5th gear(but then the 1500 box is rubish as well).

the std 1500 might be quicker but if you read my post i say better
and when after 15000 miles your thrust washers drop out and after anny smal bit of higher revs the complete crank is ruined i'd say it is a rubish engine!

the fuel economy is worse as you link says to me with the modern fuel prices that would mean more to me.

could go on and on now...
Onno Könemann

WHAT WAS I THINKING!!!!

Good Thing I havent got my 1275 engine installed yet (just hours away)...Rubbish piece of junk, I want a 1500 In my ride also...Ive seen the light!

Just remember to uprate the front springs with the 1500s also, If you do go that direction, sell both of the boxes and get the 5 speed overdrive, I cant remember which triumph car its in but a little searching should give up the facts, its fairly bolt on to the engine but the car and engine bay will need some imagination.... definatly the set=up it should have had from BMC

Prop...Surely it cant rain this hard all day can it...Prop
Prop

I completely understand the inherent issues with the 1500, thrust washers can be a problem and the length of stroke is not ideal but as I own a standard 1275 already i'm also well aware of their shortcomings too.

If we are going to be pedantic about what was written or not, you will notice in my original post at no point did I mention the 1500 engine to be BETTER than the 1275 simply more powerful.

The 1500 box is not perfect either which is why I have uprated the box in my current 1500 to a type 9 which is great. I personally find the lack of synchro on my 1275 annoying but each to their own on that.

Prop I sometimes find it hard to work out what you say in jest and what is advice, if the comment about the springs is advice, why? they are softer and longer than the 1275 as far as I am aware but i'm always willing to be educated.

All the things i've heard about the overdrive boxes is that the overdrive part of it is weak and is the first thing to break though I have no experience of OD boxes so can't say for sure.

For me it is a mix of cost, ease of install, final driving tractability and availability of parts. The engine and loom for a 1500 midget (all I really need to do the install) is easily half that of a 1275, and far more available as people, as in this case, often remove the lot to do conversions. So hey if the crank gets ruined at 15000, i'll just get another engine until that goes :)

Just to show a 1500 can be revved slightly more than some people think this is mine with a 5 speed box on twin 40's at a recent track day with onboard gps tracking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoFlTd-RDGo

Whatevers in a midget they are great cars and great fun i'm sure we can all agree on that ;)
D Prince

I love my Midget with it's Triumph heart.
I like it's torque, I like the laid back cruising it will allow. I love my type 9 5-speed box with synchro's on all gears (I have to admit: I blew the gearbox after returning from Spridget50:). The engines are abundant and at low cost available. They can be tuned as well, but indeed have a different character than the A-series.

If I really wanted POWER, I'd go for a K-series. But I don't need to. I like the power and torque my 1500 delivers in combination with a good exhaust manifold, exhaust, K&N's and different needles. It suits the car and it's drivetrain and it certainly suits my driving character.:)

I don't like the recurring bashing of the Triumph engines by people who do not always really seem to have experienced these underrated engines. I don't know the character of the 1500 in a Triumph Spitfire, but in the past I drove a Dolomite 1500. The car performed well. I've had in the recent past my share of A-series trouble when owning my Mini 1000 (1971). But that doesn't mean one has to disqualify these great engines.

And I concur with D Prince: we're talking Midgets here!
Rolf

Sorry prince,

I was just teasing of coarse, having 2 friends that have 1500s (gryf and Lee) it is a solid engine, but like all BMC, it must be maintanced and listened to, If My midget was a post 74 with a 1500, I wouldnt change it to a 1275, Id keep it as a 1500, Im of the nature like Onno, if you want a 1500 buy a 1500, same holds for the 1275,,,,but definatly modify the weakiness out of it...LOL that said, a K series in the usa would definatly change the game

My understanding on the front spring issue is the springs are heavier/stronger as the 1500 engine is heavier then the 1275, but the heavier spring might also aide in the fact that the front bumper is a mini combat fortress with the weight to match.

Yes the OD box is like any other BMC box, it has its issues agian it comes down to maintance and love, I gained from your thread you wanted something fairly orginal so my suggestion for the triumph box, but if thats not the case and the fact your across the pond from me....Id certianly do a type 9 agian, you cant go wrong with that set up from my reading and understanding

Just remember, if you go the direction of a 1500 in a pre 74, your going to get alot of ribbing and jest from those in the know on both sides "Mg and Triumph", so be honest with the thickiness of your hide as to weather you want to go this direction


Prop
Prop

Nothing to be sorry for Prop. Informative discussions like this are fantastic and I take none of the well meant jibes to heart, as I said above the main word I associate with midgets is FUN :)

If I still had the 1275 engine I would keep it but all I have is the car minus engine, gearbox, calipers, antiroll bar links and a few other bits here and there. Just trying to make the best of whats left!

I thought that the higher front springs on the 1500 had nothing to do with the weight of the engine but more to do with the height of the bumper from the ground, another of those great requirements of your homeland ;)

Let me know if i'm wrong!
D Prince

Nothing to be sorry for Prop. Informative discussions like this are fantastic and I take none of the well meant jibes to heart, as I said above the main word I associate with midgets is FUN :)

I thought that the higher front springs on the 1500 had nothing to do with the weight of the engine but more to do with the height of the bumper from the ground, another of those great requirements of your homeland ;)

Let me know if i'm wrong!
D Prince

If the thrusts drop out of a 1500 at 15000 miles then whoever built it knows jack about building engines! I've never heard such rubbish in all my time of building engines. However I would check them at around 40,000 miles.

The 1500 'single rail' 'box has a FAR sweeter action and is FAR stronger than the A Series rib case, albeit it is heavier - this is why a number of Midget racers in Class A have switched to it.


The major problem with the 1500 (as opposed to the earlier 1300s) is crank flex exacerbated by the increased mass of the large journal cranks coupled with the fact that they were made out of inferior EN16U steel (as opposed to the earlier cranks' EN40B) coupled with the fact that the engine is a 3 Main Bearing design.

It is essential to keep the oil temps down in a 1500 lest you suffer oil film breakdown and no 3 rod making a bid for freedom at high speed through the side of the crankcase, so a cooler is a must. This is especially the case with a 1500 Midget since it:

1. Has lower overall gearing than the equivalent Spitfire.
2. Has a hotter engine bay than does the Spitfire.


With regards to the O/D it is the stronger J Type and there is no way a 1500 will cause it problems. Dolly Sprints don't have problems and they produce WAY more torque than the 1500. Indeed the weaker D type was fitted to the GT6 and they didn't routinely give problems.

I've lost count of the number of fast road / track day / sprint & Hillclimb 1500 motors that I have built (indeed I sprinted a 1500 for several years with no reliability issues). All produced more than 100 bhp and 95 ft.lbs torque, and all have been reliable save on that had a cam failure because a certain well known cam grinder didn't re-harden the cam properly.

Having said that, the 1500 will never rev like a 1275 and, IMO, is not a good basis for a reliable race engine.

Now, the 'small crank' 1300 as fitted to the Spitfire MkIII and Herald 13/60 is way better for tuning than any A Series and would be my engine of choice in a 1500 shell.
Deborah Evans

You may well be right on the springs, Im not in the know, just what Ive read...but it does make scence.

something to definatly look into...granted not a big deal

Im courios tho, have you considard the ford cosworth engine, the more I look into it the more I love it, here in the USA there rare as rocking horse poo, they where only in the states for 2 years in the pinto

lots of HP (160 hp as pure stock), lots of tunning parts, 8 port cross flow head is standard on later years, aluminum block I think, look exactly like the A-series, parts are fairly inexpensive, looks like almost a pure straight drop in, but Im sure thats not the case

If I had discovered this engine before I rebuilt my A-series, I would have done this instead...to late now, maybe on the next midget

https://www.burtonpower.com/product_main.aspx?prodLanding.aspx?CCode=PC090


Prop
Prop

HELLO Girl Friend,

Ive been wondering where you where keeping your self, hows that climax working out for ya...(its an Engine guys, Come on!!!....LOL) did your race season (or what little you got to do) turn out well

Im ready to install my little slice of heaven, unfortantly its none stop rain scence 2 am this morning, or should I say waterfalls mania, I wish you where hear to help with the start up this weekend ...weather permitting.

prop
Prop

Regarding the front springs, they are longer on the 1500 (by 6mm free length) so as to meet the US ride height requirements.

According to my notes they are the same spring rate as the 1275 cars(271 lb.in). However there was a change sometime around July/August 1976 (from chassis number G-AN6 171478) so the later springs may have been stiffer.


Prop, the 1500 engine is equivalent in weight to the 1275.
Deborah Evans

The cross member on the 1500 is reshaped(cutout lower and curved) so not sure if front pulley clearance issues would arise fitting into 1275 shell.

A 1275 in a 1500 shell would make removing the timing chain case a whole lot easier than on the 1275 !

Richard.
richard boobier

God I love this board!!!

Deborah, some great info and from reading your other posts here I respect your knowledge of engine building. Bang on the money with the figures as well, my 1500 with twin 40's, fast road 83 cam, roller rockers, type 9, electronic ignition, stage 3 head has been rolling roaded twice in 6 months, first time 102.7 Bhp fly 88.2 Bhp wheels 98 lb/ft second time 102.2 bhp fly 90.2 Bhp wheels 98.2 lb/ft (recon type 9 between RR's accounts for extra 2 bhp at wheels)

Prop, never thought to look at cosworth engines, do you think it'd fit?? If it did the biggest problem would be Cosworth tax, that wonderful fact that anything with cosworth in the title adds 30% to the price! Food for thought though!
D Prince

Richard, good point well made! I think i'm going to have to do some work on the front crossmember as it is, have a look at the front chassis leg in the pic! I will take this into account at the time!


D Prince

Prop,

I have 3 Climax engines on the go just now. I've machined up new pulleys to drive the dry sump pumps and at present am fabricating the dry sump oil pans.

Racing wise I had intended to do the Burkett 6 Hour Relay race again this year but there wasn't enough interest amongst the Midget Challenge racers to get a team together in time.

I've just rebuilt the 1380 after it had done the best part of 3 seasons and, internally, it was sweet as a nut, although obviously all the bearings and thrusts were swapped out for new.



Richard,

There would be issues with putting a Triumph 4-pot in a 1275 shell since the front pulley would foul the cross member, but these are not insurmountable. The 1275 shell is lighter since it doesn't have those bloody great girders that carry the bumper armature.


D Price,

Thanks for your kind words. :)

Don't forget weight would be an issue with a Cossie engine - the Sierra Cossies are UBER heavy (the YB engine was derived from the Pinto and has an iron block)! Then again, a BDA would be fun!


My choice would be a K Seties, Zetec or Duratech.





And aye, you gotta love loud, screaming, Climaxes!!!
Deborah Evans

Dave,

It should look like this !

As I remember it the upper crossmember on the 1500 is shaped but I cannot find a pic at present.

Where in 'Avon' are you ?

Richard.


richard boobier

Prince
you are right!
It is verry hard not to have fun in a midget!
i have driven several 1500's even with od witch to me seems a worthwile adition.

And if this is the best option for you than perfect them more midgets on the road the better

but to me the A-series one is the one to have because i personly think there should have been a sucsesor to the midget an not the 1500 in the mid 70's
Witch does not make the 1500 les of a midget lets be clear in that!!!

Deborah
I love your serious reaction to my provocative statement ;)
Onno Könemann

Yep, After seeing this pic, the crossmember is definately shaped for the 1500, though I'm sure with determination this could be shaped manually with a large sledge hammer ;)

I have thought about the K project before, i'm based in Bath and have spoken to Tim and Ed at frontline on many occasions, I was going to K the yellow 1500 but got the stage 3 head for a pitance and ended up going that way but in hindsight I spent as much if not more on that setup than a K project would have cost but hey its fun learning!

Some friends are running a Sierra xr4x4 2.8 V6 as a track car and have been looking at cossie YB engines, the price I think is just too high to explore in a midget. I like the idea of rotary engines for the future, I know the RX-7 engine has been done before but has anyone tried the newer RX-8 powerplant? drove one on track at the Top gear track and it felt a bit gutless in the RX-8 but in a Midget?!?!




D Prince

Wow, I didn't expect this amount of attention. To respond to some of the discussions, I change the oil every year or 3,000 miles, its full of torque after driving a friends 1275 and on a decent run it returns around 40mpg even with those big black weight penalties hanging off each end too! I admit the 1275 car looks better (thats why I have since lost my rubber bumpers and have fibre glass 1275 front wings and rear wing convertion bits waiting to go on) but the 1500 is far better on the road in my opinion. I guess the carb setup and 4 branch manifold help this too!
Steve Hipkiss

I dont know about the RX-8, But the RX-7 engine swap is great AS LONG AS you dont have to have emissions, the whole issue with the rotory is carbon build up, they need a free flowing exhaust to really get rid of the exhaust, that seems to be the main culpret for an engine rebuild in the states of the rotory engine...but exhaust un-capped, watch out, it will rock.

Deb...thanks for the clarity on the 1500, that was vary informitive

I didnt realise the cosworth was all iron, 30% tax on cosworth engine....Im not sure I follow, is that a real gov. tax, of meaning you pay a permiume for cosworth parts....Will the engine fit, Yes? I think it will, Ive seen people on here that have done it, but to what had to be done to make it fit, Im not sure, but it sure looks like a bolt on and go from the photos Ive seen....Ive often wondered if there crossflow head coud be made to fit on a midget.

Hey Deb,

A little off topic, but are you still making those aluminum alloy hubs, Im thinking late winter Im going to do my big brake, high performance front suspension build, I was thinking of having the hubs drilled to 7/16" studs up from the 3/8ths and having the studs pushed out to 110 MM from the 4 inch...so it would be 7/16 studs on 4X110 PCD, Im just not sure the midget hub will adapt without loosing alot of strength, So I didnt know how hard it would be for you to one off a pair of hubs for me...anyway let me know, it all depends on when work picks back up and I start making some money agian.


Onno...other then that, those hubs are still midget based hubs LOL....Hhahahaaha

Prop

Prop

Steve,

Thats right, you where trying to sell an engine werent you? LOL, You mean you havent sold it yet. LOL

sorry about the hi-jacking

prop
Prop

Hey prop,

Sorry for the confusion, the 30% cosworth tax is merely added by most sellers for typing the word cosworth in the title of their advert not added by the government...yet!!!


As for the RX-8 emissions I believe that on our side of the pond the emission test is done on the year of vehicle manufacture not on the engine, I might be wrong and i'm sure i'll find out soon enough ;) But it always helps to know your MOT tester!
D Prince

Prop,
Not sold yet! Glad its started a good discussion though! :-)
Steve Hipkiss

Hey prince,

Thanks for the clarity on the cosworth, i assumed as much but you never know when it comes to taxation in the Uk, seems finding new sources of taxation is a favorite past time hobby of the brit gov. LOL

My understanding on the new Rx-8 rotory engine is it is a much cleaner engine and you wont get alot of carbon build up inside the engine with regular exhaust system the way you did with the old Rx-7 rotory engine, how they over came that, im not sure...But the Rx 8 looks to be a sweet ride, If I where buying a NEW sports car, that would be in the running as my top 3 choices,

Good luck on attaining that ride, and dont forget you still own a midget that loves hands on attention


Prop
Prop

I take it everybody wants a cosworth or RX engine then! :-(
Steve Hipkiss

Keep with it Steve someone will want it.
I already have a couple of 1500s which I am very happy with. One has 98bhp at the wheels and with all that torque it spins the overdrive very nicely. Would I be right in thinking that Prop means the Ford Kent engine! That would seem to match his description somewhat better than the Pinto based Cosworth.

Cheers Carl


C Bintcliffe

I know, I can't fault it, I'm just a bit power hungry!Once the K series set up is sorted it'll be 110bhp as a standard 1.4. The future will probably hold a 1.8vvc!
Steve Hipkiss

Hey carl,


Hmmm, some how Im gonna look bad agian arent I, LOL.

So the coswoth is not the same as the ford kent? the ford kent is what I was referancing.

Steve,

I think you will have good secuss selling your engine...it sounds like a good catch for the right person....Have you tried listing it on the classified section of the BBS,,,Id also consider listing on ebay and craigs list...I think Piston heads is a good source in the UK also, Alot of good clubs have a classified section...being that your going to a K-series it might be worth joining a few differant ones if your not already a memeber


Prop
Prop

Prop,

The Cosworth engines based on the Ford 'Kent' block (also known as the 'Cross Flow') were the 'BD' series. The most well known being the BDA, standing for 'Belt Drive Type A'.

Similar in concept to the 'Lotus Twin Cam' as fitted to the Elan and Europa, the BDA had 1601cc and a twin overhead camshaft specification. Unlike the Lotus engine, the BD series used belt driven cans rather than chain driven.

The BD series also came in differing capacities such as the 1098cc BDJ, the 1300cc BDH, the 1700cc BDR, the 1975cc BDG and the 2L BDE (the latter two having alloy blocks). There was also a turbo'd version of the BDE known as the BDTE which produced 650 bhp in race trim!

While these are capable of producing some serious power, parts for them are relatively rare and always UBER, UBER expensive. Costs for complete engines are in the range of £15000 to £20000!

eg: http://www.wilcoxengines.co.uk/bda_parts.htm
Deborah Evans

Thanks deb,

I see now why I got lost and confussed, Still what a cool engine.


and less expensive then mine : )

prop
Prop

Prop,
I'll have a look at the classified section. Ebay is the obvious way but it would be good to avoid the fees!
Steve Hipkiss

This thread was discussed between 07/10/2009 and 12/10/2009

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