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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Confidence

How confident are you with your Spritely thing? With high fuel costs I began using the Autostart function on my Frogeye, or at least the manual version of it. Switching off the ignition when the traffic lights are on red. Confident that it will fire up instantly when I pull on the starter knob. So far it has been impeccable, at least as good as all the giant "moderns" around me with their stop-start functions.
GuyW

Guy

Yes I do the same if idling for more than than 10/15 secs. Avoids overheating as well!!
Bob Beaumont

Exactly what I did today in a 40 minute queue. Alternator tops up battery quickly - might not have done this with the dynamo. Royal Mail truck behind idled the whole time.
Les Rose

My only concern would be that modern cars not only have pre-engaged starters but I also believe at least some of them engage the starter while the engine is stationary ready to turn the engine immediately a start is required. Sprites and midgets on the other hand use inertia starters and they tend to chew the teeth on the ring gear over time. This is made worst because the engine always stops in one of two places, meaning the wear in concentrated in theses places.

With modern cars, I have seen a calculation, albeit I can't remember where, that suggests the amount of fuel saved will be offset by the increase in wear on the starter and the additional cost of a replacement battery when required. Stop start cars use a different battery type (more expensive) to non stop start cars.

If you're doing this to cut down on pollution, a good enough reason in its self, then fine but if you're doing it to save money, I think the case is a bit more difficult to argue.

Bob
R.A Davis

Depends on the starter fitted, doesn't have to be the crash-clatter, wizz, miss, type. - https://www.powerlite-units.com/starters/rac403.html

Start/stop cars like my wife's use either EFB or AGM batteries.

"EFB batteries are often installed in vehicles with simple automatic start-stop systems. Due to their superior performance batteries with EFB technology are also increasingly used as replacements for conventional lead-acid batteries."

"AGM batteries are ideal for vehicles with automatic start-stop systems with braking energy recovery (recuperation), as a conventional starter battery cannot handle the high power demands of these systems. AGM batteries are also the right choice for cars with high energy consumption and a large number of electrical consumers."

https://batteryworld.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/car-battery-type-agm-efb

IIRC MGA and IIRC TD-TF owners being more in the 21st Century than many Spridget and B owners have AGM batteries fitted to their "classics" (despite the many stories of what is "needed" to charge a AGM).



Nigel Atkins

Well, although I take on board Bob's comments on long term costs (ring gear, Bendix, starter, battery) the roads that I use don't generally require a lot of this stop/ start process. I know which are the 'slow' traffic lights and when it is likely to be worth switching off, so it isn't that often. My comment (clue in the thread title) was about having confidence that I would get an instant re-start when required. Failure to get a quick start in a long queue if traffic would be a definite way of angering other motorists!

I might be less inclined to do this in winter, with lights on and lower temperatures, as the car is standard, no fancy starter or whiz bang batteries and reliant on a 60 year old dynamo.
GuyW

Bob, you are of course spot on with your comments but like Guy I only switch off in certain traffic conditions.The car covers a low mileage and wear should not be a major issue.
Even though the car is well maintained there is always the little nagging doubt it won't restart in along queue..... I also have an original set up with dynamo, points etc although I do have the AGM battery Nigel refers to.
Bob Beaumont

I'd certainly switch off in stationary traffic of longer than a few minutes as, like Bob, the engine would overheat (standard fan). I guess I have that element of doubt about it re-starting but that adds to the excitement!
Bill Bretherton

I think it's about regularity of use. Not just that regular use is good for the car which is then more likely to start 'on the button'. But it also builds on one's own assurance that it will start! (and be reliable once running) The car that is only brought out every few weeks for an outing is always going to feel more uncertain.

Having said all that, although starting and running well there is that strange clattery rattle that I can't quite pin down . . . .
GuyW

After the 'dirt somewhere in the carb' incident, confidence in the car is only just beginning to rebuild.
Previously though, switching off when stationary was normal practice, mainly to keep the engine cool but also be a little bit greener.
As a 17 year old attending car maintenance evening classes, I remember being told that switching the engine off when stationary didn't save fuel as more fuel was needed to restart the car than was saved by switching the engine off.
It was the instructor's opinion rather than science and I've wondered since if he was right. I suspect not.
Jeremy MkIII

Something else to bear in mind is that modern cars monitor the status of the battery and will disable stop/start if there isn’t enough charge.
Dave O'Neill 2

BobB,
you'll be thrown out with admissions like that!

Guy,
have you checked the strange clattery rattle isn't from behind the steering wheel.

Jeremy,
I can't see your instructor being right unless the engine was only off for a very short time.

As David has put modern cars have all sorts of computers with their programs monitoring and activating all sort of stuff all the time, even when the car is parked up.

From personal experience I've found the German marques, particularly VW, are obsessed with showing how clever(?) they are with having over-complicated, over-intrusive, intertwined computer programs, probably helped with them hiding their cheats in their systems which they had to pay out for and distract customers with concentrating on EVs.

I tried to help a (2005)BMW owner only yesterday as his car alarm was going off as I passed by but (like me) he didn't seem to want to learn by his past experience. I did manage to explain 14v was the alternator and not the car battery which showed on the car as 11.6v. At least the next time I passed by the vehicle had moved and a mains extension lead was going to where the battery is on that particular tractor.

The very hot weather we had won't have been good for car batteries and particularly on more modern and very modern cars if this hasn't already caused problems and perhaps unnecessary battery purchases then come this autumn and winter there be an even more than usual increase in problems and breakdowns are shelves and stores of batteries even more depleted than many of the batteries in vehicles. Should be no worry for the average Spridget owner though. 😊
Nigel Atkins

I seem to recall reading many years ago that it was worth switching off if the stop was going to be longer than 30 seconds so, until I got my current VW, that's what I've generally done.

It helps if you know your route. I regularly cross two level crossings. At one, if the lights are flashing I know it will be at least a two minute wait so, If I'm not in the VW, I switch off. At the other crossing it will be less than a minute so I usually keep the engine running.

The VW just makes its own mind up but when it decides not to switch off at one of the usual places it's a useful indicator that the battery's on its way out and had better be changed before winter sets in.

Colin - or should it be Clive? I can't be too sure these days, I guess it's an age thing. :)
C Mee

Interesting discussion , although my real point was about car usage, reliability and confidence. The ignition switching off thing was just being used as an example. I could have said a working clutch which would have triggered a whole different discussion!
GuyW

DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT BLEEDIN' CLUTCHES!

I have to admit, though, that I would be cautious about switching the Sprite off if I knew the stoppage was going to be anything less than a couple of minutes. I'm not too worried about temperature just very wary of my battery and charging system even though I have no reason to as they've never let me down.

One of my habits learned way back in the 70s in my Morris Minor is to blip the throttle before pulling out from a junction just to be sure it's going to go and not leave me stranded part way out in front of on-coming traffic. I still do it, especially in the Sprite.
C Mee

Clive,

"The VW just makes its own mind up but when it decides not to switch off at one of the usual places it's a useful indicator that the battery's on its way out and had better be changed before winter sets in.".

No, No, No, it means you need to recharge your battery and not just by driving it. Get it off the car and give it a long, low, slow recharge as you can, preferable at least overnight if not longer. At worse you might ned a reconditioning setting on a suitable charger. As John Twist says car batteries are one of the most oversold car parts.

Whilst it's off the car do the Willy trick of putting the ignition on so that if the battery was connected the brake light would, er, light up for say 5-10 seconds as this can reset some of the computers panic settings (not the lying cheating setting though).

You should get a warning anyway to say you've let the battery get too low to use start/stop.

On my wife's VW product you can, if you want, disconnect the battery monitoring start/stop and the world will not end.

The 30 seconds may depend on the age of your car for petrol saving, 7 seconds is in the back of my mind but as usual I may well on Fantasy Island with it - and of course it's also about the fumes (especially with a VW diesel).




Nigel Atkins

Nigel

The operative words there are 'suitable charger'. I don't have one, only my grandfather's which must be 60 years + but still going strong and a cheapo Halfrauds one.

I was also heeding the instructions that stop/start batteries need a specific type of charger. However, as I'd been running the car for five years on the battery it came with I figured it didn't owe me anything and it would be safer to replace it than risk being without the car because I'd tried charging it with an unsuitable charger!

In other words, to return to the theme of the thread, I didn't have confidence in my chargers or my ability to swap the battery without losing all the settings and saved data! Having watched the mechanic do the job, including making sure he told the car it had had a new battery (didn't know that was required) I might be confident enough to do the next swap.

Colin
C Mee

When my Volvo decide to stop allowing use of the stop start option I put the battery on a slow trickle charger which seemed at first to cure it. But a month later it did the same again so I ordered a replacement battery. Worried about loosing data or worse (I don't understand these new fangled ideas) I connected my charger to the main battery leads to provide a continual source of power whilst I switched over to the the new battery. All went well but then I have no idea if what I did made any difference. It may have been happy to get a new battery anyway, though I must admit I forgot to whisper in its ear about the replacement.
GuyW

As with a lot of things and info from car manufacturers, dealers, mechanics, technicians, even perhaps battery manufacturers it boils do to your belief system, you're probably going to believe what you are most settled with.

Colin, (Guy)
if you were dying of thirst would you argue about what brand of bottled water you were being offered. Various places I've seen it put that the AGM you can't charge it over 13.8v yet as an example my neighbour Ring SmartCharger adds in another 0.2v for start/stop above standard battery, same as it does for charging in cold weather (-20c to +5c).

Your Spridget was probably originally for 97 octane but you could put a couple of gallons (or more) of 95 in to get you to the next petrol station or more importantly home or the pub. You wouldn't need to drive it as slow as a "classic" owner taking the car to a subby Sunday afternoon local show but you probably also might not want to race it.

Same for charging the battery, the old charger would be OK to get it to a position that it could then go on the car and the car could reliably run with start/stop and other computers bits running well and the car's computer programs could take take over from there to get the battery full up in the manner it wants. Subject of course to the computers, their program and the car's charging systems still being up to snuff.

5 years isn't long, but it does depend on your use and abuse of the battery and the car's charging system of course. If you're considering changing the battery anyway what have you to lose by trying to charge it up if it works great if not you've lost a little time and a very little mains electricity. If it was some ancient part British part on the car poorly made back in the day you'd be treating it to intensive care to revive it.

The Driver's Handbook or Owner's Manual will tell you what setting need to be rest at a change of battery or more likely just synchronisation of a key or windows or something, all the radio stations remain. Just had to rest the time of day clock on my wife's car IIRC.

I didn't know the battery needed recoding (it doesn't necessarily) I wouldn't bother next time. If you stick to the same type and capacity of battery the car computers will work out the battery is in a better state of charge whether it's a new replacement or simply been recharged.
Nigel Atkins

Colin,
I forgot the photo. This is from the Owner's Manual for my wife's VW product. I synchronised the windows just in case as I don't trust VW or their computer programs but it didn't really need doing and as everyone had told me the radio didn't need touching let alone a code but as I put I did have to reset the time of day which I thought would be automatic but you never know what these cheating German marques are up to, probably some sinister reason behind it.

I've also added the photo (not our battery or overtighten clamp) for disconnecting the start/stop and I'd guess it's monitoring, but you never know what these . . .

I hope this gives you more confidence to the task.

Only yesterday I was using the (standard) battery out of a neighbour's BMW Golf/Maxi/MINI to test some LED headlight bulbs as it was spare because they didn't want to wait for it to be fully charged properly so bought an overpriced replacement. This is kept in their garage with the old van battery I revived last year or the year before, so I know where to find a battery as a 12v power source and another good enough to jump start a diesel van, or neighbour's cars this autumn and winter and probably the van again with the aftermarket electric add ons. Although as I gave away my jump leads many years ago I do have to go to another neighbour for reliable and thick jump leads, but the clips are so big they're difficult to fit on modern cars' battery clamps and earth points, but it brings a community effort to a simple task and community micky-taking for the battery miscreant.






Nigel Atkins

Hmm. I still think it's better not to risk it, not least because a modern cars' handbook is so full of disclaimers - " may not apply to all model variants". Far easier just to connect in a parallel power source before disconnecting your battery.
GuyW

I started using AGM batteries for the service banks on my boat probably 20 years ago soon after they became available and with ‘Smart’ alternator regulators (Adverc etc) these computer chargers run a program of voltage modulation that ensure the batteries do not sulphate up (biggest killer of batteries) and in doing so run up to just short of approx 15volts for a short period regularly.
AGM’s can take a rapid charge rate, greater discharge state and higher voltage than wet batteries without damage. Temperature control is necessary and with my set up a temperature sensor was taped to the side wall of the batteries and fed back to the smart charger - remember yachts on passage may have engine running for many hours when on passage - 12–15 hours to France without wind etc and batteries down in inaccessible places below decks.

Usually a conditioning charger is only cycling the battery through a similar programme to a good smart charger.

Certainly worked well for me.

Greybeard will probably have the latest info on what the boats now fit.

R.
richard b

Yes and yes Guy. I've started doing the same thing if I think I'll be stationary for a minute plus. I especially do it if I'm still on choke(choke not recently of course, and not at all not least because I'm not in the uk).

And yes I'm as confident as I can be without inspecting the starter motor, that it'll fire up easily again everytime. As you say regular use improves reliability and confidence.

I really appreciate how moderns switch off when stationary. I don't lament the passing of sitting behind a queue of stationary exhausts, that are just at the right height, to feed crap directly into my elephant's trunk, and into my lungs. 😁.
anamnesis

Guy, yours is a matter of lack of confidence in the car manufacturers so difficult to argue against and you do prefer more involvement and use of technical apparatus that I. As always each to there own.

With the VW group products and the other "look clever we are" (distraction) German marques I think it's a good idea to give some of their many, many, computers a little down and 'switch off 'n' on agen' refresh to straighten out their underwear.

I understand how tings can get complicated but those marques appear to gone out of their way to make things unnecessarily complicated, perhaps useful to hide cheats, but initially I thinks things just run away with them until things had to be so complicated to control the systems.
Nigel Atkins

Here's an american mechanic saying,

" why spend a bunch of money paying someone to do something that's pretty easy to do yourself" .

Not quite verbatim but close enough. And he also agrees, bung on a parallel power source to save computer settings and memory.

https://youtu.be/aCpHCzDjl_w





anamnesis

And, here's his part 2, explaining that you have to tell the battery monitor, it has a new battery to monitor.

And if you don't do that, the new battery gets a higher charger than it needs, because the old degraded battery did need it.

The risk is, you cook the new battery and shorten its life if you don't reset the monitor.

https://youtu.be/ETNv2S_idIU

Cool, perfect.
Perfect, cool.

Yeah right.


anamnesis

(anam note the YouTuber gets income if you click the link for the scanner he's listed and said you need.)

It depends how old or modern the modern car is. A 2018 Merc has about what 70, 80, 100, computer sensors/modules on it and possibly two batteries or is that BMWs.

If you put a new battery on that's the same type and capacity as the last surely you'll be fine otherwise you could never recharge the battery with a battery recharger because the car's computers would have seen the battery was low and yet now the battery is recharged without it's charging system running, it has to allow for this, it has a battery monitoring system and program for controlling the alternator.

My understanding was that Clive and Guy were referring to old modern cars, a Volvo and VW, rather than a 2018 Merc and as always I suggested referring to the Driver's Handbook for information. My wife's car is a 2015 VW product crammed full of over-complicated, over-intrusive, intertwined VW computer programs but if I hadn't changed the battery type I'd not have bothered with coding it or using a battery saver despite having easy access to several different types. A BMW technician said his brother-in-law had to swap the battery on an older VW without access to the scan tool and he'd been driving the car for months and over winter without issue.

Overall battery life can be affected by many things one of which is how stale it is when bought and installed, generally nota problem here but it does depend on where you get the battery from. If there was overcharging it'd only be for a very short time and the overall effect on the life of the battery wouldn't be much.

I'd guess Mercs might have more complexity if only by volume than VW altho' the Aldis like to get into complex (with all their patents, for what?) and BMW liked to show off how clever they (thought) they were but all of the makes of latest cars are so computer complex (wot could possibly go wrong).

They still have a 12v battery, including the EVs.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel;
"If you put a new battery on that's the same type and capacity as the last surely you'll be fine otherwise you could never recharge the battery with a battery recharger because the car's computers would have seen the battery was low and yet now the battery is recharged without it's charging system running, it has to allow for this, it has a battery monitoring system and program for controlling the alternator."

Presumably that is why on many (all?) VAG stop/start cars, you must not connect a battery charger directly to the battery. There is a connection post near the battery for this. I guess that is so the system can monitor how much charge is going in?
J Smith

J Smith,
a good point - but -
the following is from my wife's VAG car's "Operating Instructions" (Driver's Handbook). -

“Fast charging” with high currents
› Disconnect both battery cables (first of all “negative”, then “positive”).
› Attach the terminal clamps of the charger to the battery terminals (red = “positive”, black = negative”)."

My point is that if you have a scanner you could change the details, you certainly would if the battery is of a different type and different capacity but the car's computers will work it out if not and you've not change the type or capacity.

Guy doesn't have confidence in his Volvo's Driver's Handbook which is fair enough as it's not a pre-1999 Volvo.

If you want to we can go into the VW's ridiculous three character battery make and serial numbering from factory and that their original batteries aren't about anymore and the battery codes aren't on batteries now, or not the ones I've seen.

Have confidence don't let VAG tell you or bully you into what they want you to do if it's not necessary or you don't want to. 😄




Nigel Atkins

I no nothing, I just plugged a link to the yank cos he appeared to make sense. Yep I twigged he would get a shilling for plugging that scanner. Lol. I get nothing for plugging his plug. Lol

" --- Fast charging” with high currents
› Disconnect both battery cables (first of all “negative”, then “positive”).--- ".

If you do that, haven't you just lost all the computer settings the american bloke said to be careful not to lose?

Me no want no computa in my Sprite.😐



anamnesis

VAG systems do sometimes misbehave and give erroneous error messages, such as these...
Dave O'Neill 2

I've only just realised that the images didn't load, for some reason!







Dave O'Neill 2

'ow's yer battery for juice?

Have you got a good level scan tool to delete any error codes?

Is it diesel?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel-you're so harsh on vw diesels, mine won't blow smoke for days at a time but if I start it up it might----lol
We used to have a battery with a cig. lighter plug on it and poked it in the power outlet in the boot when changing a battery on vw's---same as Guy's battery charger--to keep all the 'lectrics alive
It can be a real issue with vw's, as well as radio code which is a pain if the owner doesn't know what it is, you have window memory, seat memory on some and adaptive transmission data loss (not an issue but some customers don't understand that their car will relearn)
Idle speed which will also relearn--Sometimes if a car is near due for a service and it resets the service reminder it can mean a very long service interval while the owner is waiting to be told
For a retail workshop it's just easier to keep all the memories alive-

willy
William Revit

It's difficult to get specific information but I think SOME ecu's use EEPROM type memory, which is non-volatile I.e. data is not lost when power removed. I use "ecu" in a generic sense to cover all of the ecu's in a car's networked control system.

My 2005 V70 diesel has had its battery disconnected many times and I can't tell any difference I.e. engine seems to respond the same, stereo works, electric seat settings are the same etc. Just my experience.
Bill Bretherton

Willy,
I'm a pedestrian, have been a cyclist and driver of soft-tops I know the smell and taste of diesels and VAG products aren't good, remember VW were proven to have cheated and paid out for it and now push heir EVs as a distraction from it all.

I know marques and models within the marques vary and I'm sure I'd have put something like check the Driver's Handbook and a Merc is different to a VW Skoda so checks have to be made.

My neighbour has a couple of different memory savers that just look like they take a few AA batteries, I know another neighbour's 2005 Merc would need it as they don't have the radio code, be interesting if the car battery finally gives up the ghost but I think there are websites that can sell you the info.

Throttle and transmission settings will come back with use and I think like all computers a "switch it off 'n' on agen" reset can be a good idea to get all the computers underwear untwisted. Especially of course the over-complicated, over-intrusive, intertwined VW programs. 😁

I can understand with a garage most customers would get annoyed if they lost the memory settings for the seats, or radio stations and many drivers expect pressing a button in the car to do everything for them.

I got berated when I followed the Driver's Handbook on older VW Skodas and suggested the radio would need resetting, apparently it doesn't.

I remember when VW first took over Skoda and the quality of the product dropped, initially at least, and VW seem to have return to this more lately with their Skoda brand at least.

I know it doesn't on my wife's model despite what the "Operating Instruction" book has -as you can imagine that title really annoys me especially as the instruction book for the infotainment they call
"Owner's Manual" !! They're out to annoy me even more than I would have been with them anyway. 😆






Nigel Atkins

I must agree Nigel, it's interesting how vw's mind works
I had to get a new radio for my golf, someone wanted the old one more than me apparently-
When I got my new one the guy in spares wanted my vin number which he recorded in his parts pooter and gave me a radio code
Fitted the radio, turned him on and entered the code number and away it went--all good
Since then I've had the battery out of the car a few times and never had to reenter the code, the preset stations stay set, the only thing needing adjusting is the clock
and sometimes the windows need resetting

The interesting one for a workshop is auto transmissions, not vw so much but Ford Falcons and Mitsubishi's both have adaptive controllers--You'll get someone that just plods about bring their car in and has the battery unhooked for some reason doing work to the car, then the tech. reconnects it and roadtests the car which normally involves giving it a good bootfull of throttle just because---so this newly unloaded auto trans memory only has go faster feelings in it so far---The customer picks the car up and comes straight back saying their auto won't change gears untill they rev it right up
then you have to explain how adaptive trans work--then they want to know why their car got full throttle on the roadtest when they 'look after' their car
Backup batteries are easier
ecu's are strange little things and something that needs to be done if the battery has been unhooked is to teach both the engine and specially the trans. ecu's where full throttle is--So it's key on, engine off, and full throttle for at least a full minute to teach it the full throttle position----it's something that gets overlooked often and causes all sorts of gearchange and fuel economy and running issues if not done--It won't learn it on the road as it's not very often you actually hold full throttle for a full minuite
willy
William Revit

Presumably, EV's won't have the same hassle when the 12v battery needs changing. Or will they?

"In Model S and Model X vehicles, especially earlier versions of the vehicles, the 12v battery is not easily accessible, and replacing it yourself can easily take more than hour. It can take half an hour even for experienced Tesla technicians."

https://electrek.co/2020/09/15/tesla-fix-dying-12v-batteries-software-update-musk/#:~:text=In%20Model%20S%20and%20Model%20X%20vehicles%2C%20especially%20earlier%20versions,even%20for%20experienced%20Tesla%20technicians.

And it seems they may only ladt a couple of years. Really? Is that true of all EV's?


anamnesis

Willy,
accepted, and the abuse mechanics give customer's cars then hide with the help of BMS. 🤣
Nigel Atkins

anam,
you need to do more research about Tesla cars and Mr Musk otherwise you'll be making the same mistaken trust in an extremely wealthy and powerful man and 'empire' as you did with Mr Trump.

Tesla are their own category of EV and company, for now, watch Musk with his shares in the company, but then again he's so much money he might be happy to loose a big chunk just for his own entertainment value or to say or do as he pleases, as he has previously.

Tesla with Mr Musk get away with stuff no other car manufacturer does or should, it's what happens when you have disciples and others that think powerful wealthy disrupters must be good.
Nigel Atkins

Lol. What makes you think I trusted Trump, or trust Musk. But both clever blokes like them or not.

What about my quetion? Is a 12v battery replacement hassle on most ev's, or is it a doddle?
anamnesis

They’ve probably made it as difficult as possible, so it’ll have to be done by a main dealer.
Revenues will be down without ICE, fuel and ignition problems, so they’ll need to generate as much work as they can.
Dave O'Neill 2

There are reports of Tesla refusing to provide any further software updates if the car is worked on by non Tesla trained mechanics. Just read on line so no idea if it's verified.
GuyW

Back to stop-start. There is someone who puts up little videos about the physics and maths behind various car operations and myths. Yesterday one popped up about just this topic where he ran tests to compare fuel consumption for stop/start with just letting the car tick over. Testing on a 1.5litre 4 cylinder engine with both lab testing and road testing he demonstrated that stop start wins at anything above a 7 second wait. Pretty low I thought, but a modern well designed car shouldn't use much extra fuel for the restart.
I suspect my MK 1, especially as I cannot then resist a blip of the throttle, would use rather more!
GuyW

anam,
you say Trump is clever must just be a wind up, if not then you could run as his mate.

I don't know about 12v batteries on EV (depending on which type of EV) but as they're for the usual car (including computer) systems I don't see why they should be difficult but I don't know.
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
I wasn't aware Tesla allows anyone else to work on their cars, I didn't think they gave out any information that would enable this anyway, possibly following the Iphone idea.

I was thinking of 7 seconds for start/stop but it might have been a previous post of yours that mentioned it as it was in the back of my mind but I couldn't remember why.
Nigel Atkins

Put it this way nigel.

Trump became US President. He's looking a very possible contender to be President again. He's got bags of money, no matter how much he's lost. No matter 'you' loath or like him, He can't be that stupid. Now it may be that all those who voted and still support him, are stupid. But I think stupid is the wrong word. There are other words that better describe him and all those voters. Anyway, how did Trump get into stop start? Lol


Stop start of course will be redundant with ev's.
anamnesis

That's the point Nigel. Tesla don't want others to work on their cars. But they cannot physically prevent it. Withholding information (not issuing a "Good Book?) doesn't prevent others from working on the car does it! But not issuing the regular software updates certainly would, eventually, disable the car!

I don't think I had come across that 7 seconds figure before. In the fb video he calculates it by measuring the volume of fuel used for 100 back to back starts and divides that to get a figure of 0.17cl per start, then calculating how long the car would run on that small amount. 7 seconds. I was surprised how short a period, even if one were to allow for calculation and measurement errors. I would have assumed something like 20 seconds to be the tipping point.
GuyW

anam,
I don't loathe him, I try to ignore him. One day you might do your research on him but I think you prefer not to know and/or say it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter what either of us think of Trump as it'll make no odds at all. 🙃
Nigel Atkins

Guy, I meant the WSM, and of course Tesla control their software which must make VW programs look very straight forward.

I don't know who works on Teslas, perhaps you know of independents, I can't think of what level of work they'd be able to do as I don't know what isn't computer controlled on the car.

I've seen quite a few Teslas around Northampton and apparently we have a Tesla Centre in Northampton, tucked away out of sight behind other car manufacturers places. Have a look at this for their difference to booking in your VW for work. - https://www.tesla.com/en_MO/support/service-visits

I don't know any Tesla owners but I think the current owners would be, like the way other marque owners were and not tell about any problems or issues with the cars, as years back with Merc and BMW owners for the sake of loyalty, ego and residual valves.

I've seen the 7 seconds somewhere, certainly not on Facebook, and the shortness did surprise me but I've no idea if this has been checked or challenged. I usually find Sod's Law applies even with putting the handbrake on and taking out of gear, that often finds movement in traffic or lights changing to green.
Nigel Atkins

As an aside, Teslas are being used as taxis in London.

Nigel, Trump might be US president again. If he is, will he still be stupid?

I've got a friend in Canada who bought a Tesla of some description. I'll ask her how much it would cost to change the 12v batt'.

Not just Tesla, isn't pretty much everything these days designed to prevent 'diy' ?
anamnesis

Trump didn't seem to get any smarter last time he was President and he said and done some stupid things then. Anyone can say and do stupid things without being stupid but sometimes the frequency, breath and depth from one person can lead to a possible conclusion that they are stupid.

Just because he was born very wealthy and got to be President doesn't exclude the possibility that he's stupid. People had reasons to make him President (twice according to him and some of his supporters).

I don't think he's that stupid, he has animal cunning, it was you that said he's (very?) clever and I said he wasn't and you preferred that I thought he was stupid which I was happy to go along with when the only other option you'd allow was that he's clever, so as he's not that clever . . .

Do you feel it reflects badly on you by you thinking he's (very?) clever when he's not that clever - don't worry about it we all make mistakes. Sometimes we can see and/or admit to those mistakes sooner than other times. 😉

Song from Frozen . . .
Nigel Atkins

Trump is as clever as any other con man. He's gotten away with so much for so long that he thinks that he can just keep on doing what he's been doing all along. The problem is that people are starting to catch on to his ways and if all goes well he'll have a change of address to an even bigger house.

As for stopping/starting I don't do that unless I'm low on fuel and stuck in traffic. I heard years ago the theory about starting using more fuel than idling. I think that depends on the tune of your engine and how long you're stopped and how much you blip your throttle.
Martin

Nigel, I was about to say essentially what Martin just said. Trump is clever at manipulation. Many undesireable people are. And as you say, clever people also do stupid things. You brought Trump into this discussion, and I can't find where I said he was very clever or that I trust(ed) him; although I do think he is clever. I don't however admire him or everything he says, or agree with everything he says or has said. In fact quite the opposite in some instances. But given that I don't follow his every utterance, I actually have no idea to what extent I agree or disagree with him. Aren't you bored with talking about Trump? Lol. I think you should urgently reconsider buying another Spridget; it'll take your mind off Trump.😅😅.

Martin, which state pen do you think he'll go to? Lol.

The big difference is surely that modern cars and even bikes are designed to stop start, and our old ones aren't.

Honda.
Motorcycles Technology
Save Fuel just by driving normally, with Honda's Idling Stop System

https://global.honda/innovation/technology/motorcycle/idling-stop-picturebook.html

Hence confidence in this respect, is more likely in a modern than an oldie.


anamnesis

My previous car, a Ford with start/stop, noted in the drivers handbook that to use the function, then ideally the engine should be off for a minimum of 6 seconds. So that tallies with what others have mentioned here.

At the time I wondered if it was more to do with battery drain rather than fuel efficiency.
Philip Sellen

Philip thanks for that info, and of course for reading the Handbook. Trust Ford to go one second better. 🙂

Plenty of potential for battery drain with the engine off on modern cars, lights, wipers, blower, air-con, and of course the essentials, satnav, video, heated massage seat, sound system, phone, front and rear dashcams, . . . 🤣
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
If the battery starts to get low on a start/stop car, the engine automatically re-starts to charge the battery.
Bill Bretherton

. . . . .and the stop start function is then automatically disabled until the battery is sufficiently recharged again to a healthy level. The start/stop function is also disabled if AC is being used with a low battery charge.
GuyW

Stop Start function is also disabled when there's a trailer attached. I realise there may be implications if the trailer is a caravan with fridges and things switched on, not sure why it does it with my little box trailer and car trailer.

No idea how it does it, but the car knows that my box trailer's o/s rear light's not working event though it's not switched on. I guess it's 'cos everything goes through the ECU these days, instead of being a simple circuit as on Spridgets in a system I can understand.
C Mee

Gentlemen, I wasn't being entirely serious, more highlighting how some need everything going on the car without regard to it's power drain or effects. The same for energy use in their home perhaps.

I know what the start/stop monitoring does the idea is not to get to the stage where the computer has to use its brain because the driver(s) haven't fully used theirs - or don't know about such.

With VW products at least if the battery gets too low the car can still be started by the driver and the lights may still seem bright but the computers can make the driver suffer by throwing up all sorts of warnings but also causing all sorts of issues that many won't associate with the battery being very low and needing charging and if they do they think just driving the car (still running as many electrical items the car will allow) is sufficient to recharge the battery and if not the battery must need replacing - rather than the driver(s).

I think if a 50p slot meter, not card or credit, was put on the car's electrics many would soon learn what uses the power most and to use the power more efficiently.

Many can't understand how an issue or problem can be battery related forgetting all the computers on the car run on a thin supply so if gets thinner the computers can easily get their brain-farts and cause all sorts of unexpected issues.

As I put before the extreme hot weather will have weakened some batteries that will be flogged to death by the driver(s) so if they haven't played up and been replaced (rather than properly recharged perhaps) by now then they will come autumn and winter so I'd expect more "battery" failures and breakdowns/recoveries and battery replacements even more than usual for the seasons.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 22/08/2022 and 03/09/2022

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