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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Converting wires to steels 65 Sprite

In a thread long ago I was given loads of great advice on improving my rolling restoration. One topic was wheels as it had wires. My previous 69 midget was Target Red and wires suited it so I kept them in spite of dealing with webbing, tubes, tuning spokes as well as tyres. I agreed that my Reviera Blue Sprite would look cute with steel wheels. I had a donor car so I swapped out the whole rear axle for a steels one. When I've done the front ones I'll post some pictures. So hopefully I'll have lighter wheels and less unsprung weight (which I remember being a thing when I was younger) cheaper brand new 145 /80 tyres replacing old tyres which had plenty of tread but too old to use, and a bit better feeling having replaced all the rubber parts I could find. New brakes, hydrolic hoses. I also have 4 Austin wheel trims.
Why it couldn't be a case of swapping out the half shafts is a mystery to me but makes MG owning the fun it is.

So I'm glad I went with the advice (I don't always😁) and when they are all back on I'll report back and send some photos. Possibly just of pubs in Kent.

Brendon Le Page
B M Le Page

The main axle tube on wire wheel cars is actually narrower than the steel wheel type to suit the wire wheel set up.

R.
richard b

Look forward to it.

Where better to drive to than country pubs serving good ale!?

(photo now out of date of course)



Nigel Atkins

I converted mine ('70) from wires to Revolution alloys many years ago just by swapping halfshafts...was no internet then to ask questions on so it was just a case of try it and see if they fit.
AdrianR

I have a set of five Rostyles in very good condition if you fancy them. Carriage via Shiply or Hermes or something shouldn't be too bad.
(Bare rims, no tyres).
Greybeard

Hi thanks for the offer of the rostyles - I already have the 5 steels from the donor car - a 69 sprite which was beyond repair. I've given the steels a light refurbish and shod them with new tyres. With the ah wheel trims they look so cute!

The rear axle is all done - just waiting for Cotter pins and felt washers for the handbrake then I can see how the wheels look.

However if anyone knows a way of getting the bump stops on... Boiling them, using grease, washing up liquid etc. all seem fruitless 😠

And by the way I can spell Riviera and hydraulic but it was 1am😴 I was concerned a certain motoring journalist might be cringing!
B M Le Page

for the bumpstops IIRC I used red rubber grease and sort of screwed them on with a clockwise twist, push and heave.
David Smith

I use silicone grease and a twist.

Are you using new ones or originals?
Dave O'Neill 2

Hi

Thanks for the advice. I'm using new ones - the old ones are soft and cracked. I've got some silicone grease so I'll try that. I've also taken the rust off before repainting so the mushroom was at least smooth.

I will see if my sons are stronger! I must have done it on my previous car which proves it is possible.

No wonder the previous owner chose to put the old ones upside down using the bigger hole!

Brendon
B M Le Page

Or, if you are lazy like me, insert a block of wood 6.5" long between bump stop and pedastal with the axle at full droop, then jack under the axle to push it into place.
Paul Walbran

Thanks Paul. I don't know any weight-lifters so I'll definitely try that.

I'm happy with how they look so far. They do look appropriate. See photos.

I can't find out how tight the u-bolts should be - how much they should squish the rubbers and bearing in mind they hold two important things together. Haynes says they should be tightened with the car on the ground.

Lastly how does one put oil in the Diff without spilling half of it?

Much appreciation for everyone's help

Brendon





B M Le Page

Brendon,
they look good, though the wheel arch sweep at the sill looks odd with car sitting so high.

U-bolts IIRC should be very tight to ordinary spanner and forearm muscles, tighten with car on ground. Before doing so you can try to to get axle a bit level front/rear and left/right.

Diff oil, split between two 1 litre bottles both with built in flexi-tube on neck, bend tube to close of, invert, release tube, save at least one bottle for top ups and next change of diff oil refill so you have two bottles to split one litre.

For photos, try, hold phone at landscape/on its side/ horizontal.






Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel I've ordered the Diff oil with tubes. I did try an empty fork oil bottle with a tube but I was probably rushing, cross and with slippery fingers by then.

The car is up on jack stands hence the wheel arch thing. I'm going to fill the Diff, bleed the brakes while it's up and tighten the u bolts when it's down.

Thanks
Brendon
B M Le Page

Go to the vets and ask for a drench syringe.
I got a 250ml one.
A foot or so of aquarium hose and you're in business. Slow but sure.
Also good for sucking oil out.
Greybeard

Grey’s tip for a 250ml plastic syringe is a good one. Buy two.

Also can buy them in agricultural supplies shops (near agricultural markets often). If such things not close to you, fibreglass suppliers and some chandlers will have them for measuring out resin (ag suppliers and grp suppliers may be cheaper than chandlers).

I also use such syringe with a hose as Grey describes for removing old oil and sludge from lever arm dampers as well as topping them up (keep one syringe for the dirty drain out/flush out and a second separate one for the final clean fill up with new oil).

Cheers
Mike

M Wood

That's a great idea. I already use a little plastic syringe with a long tube 'needle' for accurately aiming penetrating oil to where it needs to go and sucking oil out of dash pots. Saved me a fortune. Sometimes spraying under pressure is necessary though.

Somehow I never thought of using a big one for big applications. Doh! ☺️

And The stuff is so viscous I need to learn to be patient. The replacement Diff oil arrived today so fingers crossed.
B M Le Page

What dif oil are you using, Brendon?
GuyW

I use plastic syringes for refreshing oil in the lever arm dampers. Only a 10ml one rather than the 250ml as its easier in the confined space. I accumulated a supply from when refilling printer cartridges.
GuyW

Brendon, you say "The car is up on jack stands" but that might mean you are in danger of overfilling the diff. You can fill it this way then, with the filler plug removed, lower the car so the wheels are on the ground, allowing the excess to remove itself. But this is messy (as I know from experience).

If you jack the car up, put it on stands, remove the filler plug and lower the car onto its wheels again, you can just about reach to squirt from a bottle with tube (awkward but it can be done). You can't get the last bit out of the bottle, but just refill the first bottle from your second bottle. Some oil will dribble out when the diff is full, but not as much as with the first method. Don't forget to refit the filler plug ;-)

Jon
Jonathan Severn

Check that you can remove the filler plug BEFORE you drain the oil. It will probably be ok but they have been known to be stuck solid and you do not want to find out after draining all the oil!
GuyW

Haha excellent advice 👍. I know there are lots of books and videos but the combined expertise here makes me think it should be distilled into a handy format. The advice I've been given is invaluable.

Luckily I loosened everything when I did a quick 'n dirty derust and paint. Then I had to remember to put them back before anything from the refurbishing landed up in the axle

Also luckily I did the brake adjusters while the axle was out.

In both cars it's been the devil's own job to unsieze them. And the cunning design (🙄) means that after I loosened then I could only get them through and out by grinding a screwdriver slot in it. There is probably a better way but it worked.
B M Le Page

Also I will have to get my head around the oil levels on jacks and on the ground and how it relates to whether I've jacked up the body or the axle. Basically if a bit dribbles out when it's down means it's OK?

I'm using the oil in the photo from sussexclassiccar.


B M Le Page

Sorry for 3 posts but funnily enough I also use the syringes from a continuous ink supply system 😁
B M Le Page

Wouldn't agree to EP140, the correct viscosity is EP90. GL4 spec is good though. I buy 5 litre cans from Smith & Allan on ebay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373537080798
David Smith

Even at EP90 it'd be a timid choice, you could throw it in as a flush and then put something better in after, unless you intend to drive it like it's a 1940s small saloon.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks for all that. I was thinking a flush would be a good idea anyway and now I've found a way to successfully fill it (I got my son to do it😁) I'll fill it with something less timid!

I'm gradually getting more confident in letting her rev up to 4 500 and enjoying what she has to offer and being less like a pensioner in an A40. It revs really easily. Just been for a short test drive round the block and everything seems fine. And the worrying klonk as the splines took up the load has gone. Yay!

One of Nigel's very first pieces of advice was about not using old tyres even if they have lots of tread. Now I have brand new ones on the new wheels.

I haven't got the money or the time to do everything at once but we are continuously going forward.

See you in the Crown and Sceptre.
B M Le Page

Brendon.
take it easy on the new tyres for first 100 miles (200 wet weather) and check your nuts after the first 30-50 miles (44-46 lb ft toque only).

'Ere's what I use in the back axle, a fully synthetic - and GL5!! - no, think of the children - Millers CRX 75w-90 NT+ - https://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/crx-75w90-nt-2/

And I'm a complete maverick as I also put it in my Ford T9 gearbox - no, think of the yellow metals - a lot of old fellas are wait for the axle and gearbox to fall apart because of this.
Nigel Atkins

I think this process is nearly finished. I found the 69 1275 half shafts didn't want to play nice with the 65 1098 Diff so I swapped the Diff out today. Also I had to drain the oil so I put gl4 75w90 in. I'll probably change it again soon Obviously the ratios are different but there is a trade off between acceleration and more relaxed cruising and after a 10 mile drive so far it seems like an OK compromise.

Everything feels so much better it feels like it's 10 years newer. It goes into corners on rails but it's a tiny bit squirrely on the exit. But bl***y hell it was fun tonight😁👍🍻

Thanks everyone.
B M Le Page

I’m not sure why you had trouble with the halfshafts, as everything is interchangeable.
Dave O'Neill 2

With the 1098 Diff it was very rough clonky and noisy as the clutch was released.l and running on axle stands or on the road. We measured the teeth using good quality electronic caliprs on both sets of half shafts and there was no discernable difference. I can only think there was an unven pattern of wear so they didnt mesh properly. If it was in gear and I held one wheel still the other one jerked about like a cat on hot bricks.it did seem to be something to do with half shafts meshing with the Diff.

Changing out the Diff eliminated the problem completely so whatever the cause it seems perfect now. I'll hang on the Diff for a bit in case there is a reason for changing it back.

I assumed it would be fine with the 1098 Diff but somehow it was very unhappy.
B M Le Page

It might be interesting to pull the problem diff apart to see what the problem might be. The planet gears can pick up on the cross shaft especially if the wheels are spun using the diff heavily so maybe this is starting to happen, should be easy to assess that without dismantling by feeling how easily the diff gears rotate. Ultimately it can shear the cross pin retaining pin and that can lead to total final drive loss when the cross pin comes out in use DAMHIK.
David Billington

I think with the later diff ratio the actual and driver's perception of noise and vibration is more acceptable, that's what most seem to report. The perception I think might make the later diff seem slower accelerating than it actually is. If you'd had a sundial with you you could have compared the two for actual figures, but it's not about figures but how it feels to you and you seem happy enough.

For the rear end wiggle, assuming the tyres had been driven in, it might be worth checking the tightness of the u-bolts and rest of suspension, perhaps tyre pressure but I'll risk suggesting it might be more to do with the way the car was driven (or cheaper tyres?). 😁

PaulW put up a method of getting the tyre pressures right but I've yet to have an opportunity to use it as I've already done far too much test driving so prefer the freedom of just the run.

For the oil the exact numbers are less important than getting a good quality oil.

One school of believe, favoured by many classic owners is that all oils are the same and getting what's cheap is fine and it doesn't need changing proved by the fact they've had a car decades and never changed the axle (or gearbox) oil. Bear in mind many classic owners are very tight-fisted.

I saw where one chap changed his rear axle oil every year and it kept the diff quiet(er?). I found each time I changed the diff oil it did reduced the whine, but the effect didn't last.

I think it's a good idea to run with your GL4 75w90 for a while and then change it as it'll act as a running flush clean.

Gearbox oil changes are often forgotten or ignored, for the MGB using engine oil the change in the WSM is 24k-miles or 2-years whichever is the sooner, back with the MGA IIRC it was every 6k-miles/12-months. Some of us with the Ford T9 (slow saloon) box can find differences in different oil especially those in colder climates, up north.

But that's jumping ahead.
Nigel Atkins

So to update we've now changed all four wheels to steel. Replaced front bearings while we were there. One of the caliper bolts was rounded so my son had to weld a nut on to get it out. The bolts hold the caliper to the hub but have another threaded end to fix the brake line bracket. They are nca so my son made one from the modern style ones so I'm confident the caliper will stay attached.

The steels have improved the ride and the road holding no end. It feels planted. Just feels tight and new and a huge pleasure to drive. I really like the 1275 Diff it's more relaxing. I'm done with repairs for now - just servicing and engine gearbox and Diff oil changes for the next few months.

The paint job is catastrophically bad so it's going to have to have a respray which we can do ourselves. In a few months.

So this time I DID follow the advice and it was on the money - thanks everyone.
B M Le Page

Brendon

That is a great result and thanks for the update.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Well done.

(apart from mentioning font wheel bearings, how very dare you, did you gamble on the less expensive ones or pay twice the price for the factory style kit).

I'm glad you enjoy how the car feels to you as that's what's it's all about - and gong very well on spirited runs of course.

Let us know when you're thinking about changing oils and we can give our various experiences and opinions for you to chose from. Moss are not the only suppliers of MG parts or (very limited) choice of oils.

With regular use over reasonable distance journeys and regular maintenance and servicing your car should improve even more.

A mate had a 1098 and it used to really fly.
Nigel Atkins

Whoops I should never have mentioned wheel bearings. I went down a vast rabbit hole on the forums discussing the minutiae of bearings. It fair done me 'ed in. So I got cheap replacements from a specialist dealer and carefully followed the instructions in one of my preferred books. Not Haynes "reassembly is the reverse of dissasembly' The wheels go round and round, no wobble or looseness, its a tight clearance between new discs and new pads and there is no sign of eccentricity. Not on the wheels anyway.

I've just changed the oil and filter using 20W50. But it's by way of a flush so good enough for now.

Brendon
B M Le Page

Brendon,
you seem the lucky sort, I expect your wheels will go round for years on the cheaper bearings.

Mine didn't, but I only have bad luck with cars, I expect it's to balance out my very good luck with good looks, charm and modesty.

20w50 engine oil, well it's what's in the good book (but it was written over 50 years ago) but you won't go wrong by the book.

Not long now and you'll be able to take it on runs to distant pubs, woohoo!
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 03/06/2021 and 26/06/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.