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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Daylight Running Lights (DRLs)

I'm looking to fit DRLs to the midget.

Photo 1 shows how it looked yesterday with incandescent bulbs.

Photo 2 shows LEDs (pilot lights) in the headlights.

I'd like the LEDs to operate separately as DRLs and extinguish when the sidelights are switched on.

Dr Davies did a DRLs write up but his method used the original sidelights as both DRLs and sidelights.

Bearing in mind my electrical know how is pretty limited, has the collective any ideas how to wire it up so the DRLs extinguish when the sidelights are illuminated?

(The o/s indicator unit looks squiffy doesn't it? In reality it's straight must be the angle of the camera :))






Jeremy MkIII

When do you anticipate using sidelights alone?

If it's just as parking lights, then you could wire the running lights off a separate supply taken from the ignition switched live (usually green from fuse box). They would then be on all the time the engine was running, but off when parked with the sidelights left on. Is that what you are after?
GuyW

Thanks Guy, almost what I'm after but maybe I should have said the DRLs extinguish when the sidelights/headlights are illuminated.

Ideally the DRLs will come on when the engine is running but then extinguish when the sidelights/headlights are switched on.
Jeremy MkIII

Jeremy
To get what you're after you'll have to wire it as Guy suggests but through a naturally on relay and then use the parklight circuit to open the relay and extinguish the DRL's when the sidelights are on
William Revit

You can fit them without a relay. If you connect the positive feed to the ignition switched circuit and the negative to the positive side of the sidelights (red wire) the LEDs will earth through the sidelights without the sidelights illuminating. As soon as you turn on the side lights, you will have 12v on both sides of the LEDs so they will not illuminate.
You would need to use a diode in the negative side of the LEDs so that you don’t have the sidelights feeding back into the ignition.

Paul Hunt has done this on his MGB and written it up on his website. I will see if I can find it later, when on my PC.
Dave O'Neill 2

Ah, that's a little more complicated, and beyond me I am afraid. Would need some clever switching I imagine.

If they are LEDs, with low consumption, what's the problem of them staying on with the headlights. You would presumably not be able to notice that they were on together, avoiding the more sophisticated solutions now on offer!
GuyW

Dave,

Why a diode in the negative side of the LED as it is after all a diode?
David Billington

Thanks Willy, I think I understand what you mean but don't know how to implement your suggestion.

Dave, thanks for the info on Paul Hunt's MGB, I'll have a google to see what turns up, a simple wiring diagram would be the ticket.

Guy, beyond me too hence the cry for help. That's a good idea and I'll pop down to the garage to see how it looks.
I'm still hankering after the DRLs switching off but with my limited electrical knowledge then a more straightforward solution maybe the way forward.
Jeremy MkIII

Dave,

found Paul Hunt's DRL piece. Is this what you mean:
http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/drl.htm#2

With thanks to Paul Hunt obviously!


Jeremy MkIII

Being an electrical numpty, I dont know if this will work, but my frogeye has dual LED sidelight and indicator bulbs. When the side lights are on they are white but change to yellow when indicating. When the sidelights are off they just come on yellow when indicating. Therefore, my frogeye has daytime running lights with almost no draw.
G Lazarus

Gary, though I don't see this as a problem, using your dual duty front sidelights as running lights will mean that the rear lights are on as well for daytime duty. Generally running lights are only at the front aren't they?
GuyW

Guy that's it, for DRLs only the front lights are illuminated.
Jeremy MkIII

Jeremy

Yes, that’s it.

David,

Good point. Maybe not feeding back to the ignition, more preventing reverse voltage being applied to the LEDs.
Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,

I had to think about applying reverse voltage to LEDs as my neighbour bought some LED running lights for his Morgan and when they arrived there was no indication of polarity, IIRC both wires were black. I had a think about it for a bit and remembered that the reverse breakdown voltage for diodes is far higher than the forward voltage so concluded connecting them to 12V the wrong way wouldn't do any damage and it didn't. I think that unless there's something unusual about those DRLs then the blocking diode is redundant.
David Billington

I think all of the suggestions are valid although I like Dave's idea and agree with David that you don't need a protection diode because, with the sidelights on, there is 0v across the LED's (if I've understood Dave's circuit correctly).
Bill Bretherton

I favour Gary's straightforward idea.

Or you could perhaps wire the pilots in the headlights to the sidelights too for even more light at front, presumably when on the headlights would overpower the pilot lights so not be noticed too much. Four lights at the front during the day would probably be better seen than two.

Not that I'm sure of the legality of any of this.
Nigel Atkins

While I might be biased since I don’t like drl’s I think there is a big downside to their alleged safety feature.
The rear lights are off.
I’ve seen many cars driving in dark or dusk conditions with just the drl’s on.

So why not just turn on your lights?
Midgets are small cars that can use all help to be visible
O K

Onno

I think that part of the problem with modern cars is that they also have the dash lights on with the DRLs, so when it is dark, it can be easy for the driver to think that they have their lights on.

Bill

With the sidelights on, there would be 0v across the LED providing the ignition is also on. With the ignition off and sidelights on, you have 12v on the cathode and the anode could feasibly be grounding through another circuit.
Dave O'Neill 2

Like Onno I am anti drl's, so would say just dont go down that route.

Trev
T Mason

Dave, yes indeed, you're right. In the event the ignition was off but an accessory was switched on then there is a path to earth as you say. Depends what the peak inverse voltage is for the LED I suppose.
Bill Bretherton

Onno,

yes indeed but as Dave says that may be due to the dash lights being illuminated.

I could just drive with the lights on (and include a buzzer in the interior light circuit so they're not left on when parked and you come back to a flat battery) but as there are LEDs and a high-ish level brake light there already, I turned my attention to making the front slightly more visible.

Trev,

thanks for your comment but why anti DRLs?

Bill, Dave, if I do use Paul Hunt's design do I need a diode then? If yes, anywhere you can suggest to source one from?

Thanks

Jeremy MkIII

Probably best to.

Cheap as chips on ebay - £1.49 for 50, plus £1.20 postage.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-IN4001-Diode-Rectifier-1A-50V-1st-CLASS-POST/300618127814
Dave O'Neill 2

Jeremy, I'm anti them because I personally think they are completely unnecessary on any car. Also some of them are so bright that if the driver doesn't put his headlights on when its gloomy they can create a lot of glare. I have also never been an advocate of high level brake lights ever since they can along. I have always referred to them as idiot lights because you must be an idiot if you cant see normal brake lights and I put drl in the same category.

Trev
T Mason

DRLs are useless IMHO - if you want to be more visible then dipped headlights are far more effective.
Chris at Octarine Services

Trev

The problem is, our roads are full of idiots.
Dave O'Neill 2

Absolutely Dave, and thanks for the link.
Jeremy MkIII

DRLs were hijacked from motorbikes where they were an essential safety feature. With the small frontal area, the use of headlights in daytime gave motorbikes that extra visibility and must have saved many lives. That is now lost as a motorbike with headights is harder now to distinguish from the general approaching traffic all with DRLs blazing. A retrograde step in road safety.
GuyW

Dave that's true but whatever you put on your car they still wont see you.

Guy, that very true and applies to many H&S ideas. Just think how much use is made of hazard lights these days and high viz vests. They all now tend to just become part of the background rather than standing out as intended.

Trev
T Mason

I remember my late father in law's Volvo 245 having daytime running lights back in 1976, not really necessary as if you were unable to see a hulking Volvo estate bearing down on you, you shouldn't really be on the road.
Jeremy MkIII

Here's another take on DRLs.

This is what I did on my B, adapted from an article in MASCOT.

It essentially uses two diodes and an ignition switched feed to light the front sidelights when the ignition is on.

When turning on the sidelights, the rear lights and panel lights then illuminate, too.

Rather than two individual diodes, I have used half of a bridge rectifier (as suggested in MASCOT) as the packaging makes it easier to mount and more resilient.

It involves disconnectiong the front sidelight feed that comes from the switch, where it enters the double bullet behind the grill. This is then re-routed to one of the '~' teminals on the rectifier. A feed from the ignition switched green circuit is then connected to the other '~' terminal. Finally, a short wire from the '+' teminal on the rectifier is connected into the double bullet connector which feeds both sidelights.






Dave O'Neill 2

Looks a very neat solution Dave. If I knew what I was doing I might be able to adapt it for my needs!

Jeremy MkIII


Volvo introduced DRL's in 1975 for use in the extended darkness of Scandanavia. Originally the rear sidelights were lit as well (dual filament 6/21W at the front with 21W used for DRL). I had a 240,740 and V70 that all used this system. My current V70 (2005) uses the front headlights on dip plus rear sidelights. Always on unless you change it via software.

With the introduction of front only LED DRL's I suppose they don't stand out as much as every modern car has them. I have no particular opinion except, with my current V70, the dipped beam bulbs are used so don't last as long and are quite challenging to change. They either take 5 minutes or 2 hours.
Bill Bretherton

If "every car" has DRLs and you have too then you are on an even playing field. Without DRL's you are the gap in the traffic stream that the non-too careful driver in the side turning will go for.
Graeme Williams

But why on earth are the rear lights not switched on with dlr’s?
I mean you constantly look fwd so can actively take action there, while you spend way less time looking aft.
You’d think making yourself more visible from the rear is more important.

Anyway I don’t understand this wish to modernise and for visibility just turn your lights on (an alternator and good battery should happily support that)
O K

I do agree with Onno on this.
I always switch on my lights whenever I go out with the midget during daylight, which I improved with better glas(hella?)units and bulbs (no leds!)

On the rear I have the US red old/round units and improved that by replacing the bulbs for better/higher output ones. 5amp to 10amp? cant realy remember precisly anymore, have to look it up sometime.
Redid everything after Spridget 60 in 2018.
A de Best

Arnie,

you have 4 huge spotlights, and what looks like two sets of repeater lights on the flanks of your Spridget so you will be seen!

Our cars were small when new and are positively tiny now so anything (within reason) to make them more visible to other road users is I think, sensible. I don't want all that effort, time and money put into restoring it undone by some numpty ploughing into me and then glibly saying 'I didn't see you'.

Jeremy MkIII

smidsy as the bikers call it - sorry mate I didn't see you
Nigel Atkins

So you fit DLR’s an then they only crash in to you from the back?
If you want to be seen turn on your lights so both ends are visible.

Mine are on day or night, I’ve painted it a bright colour and have a loud exhaust.
All to be safe of course ;)
O K

LOL Jeremy, I completly forgot about that photo.
That was only on when rallying which I havent done for some time now.
So I run the car without that "christmastree".

I did bild in some extra lights behind the lower airinlet(1500 frontvalance) for "wider" sight
...and to signal cars infront of me to make way for my noicy Midget. LOL!!





A de Best

May not look impressive but they do theire work well ;)


But those are extra lights and you just want to improve your standard lights so this wasnt realy relevant for you, sorry for the drift. ;)

But to be honest I dont realy like the blue-ish light that Leds give, I prefer the warmer classic color of traditional lights...





A de Best

Arie,

those 'Christmas tree' lights of yours are very bright!

Your location for the DRL/LEDs is a good solution, however not having a 1500 valance and running with a bumper means that option is unfortunately, unavailable to me.

Siting DRLs behind the grille would entail relocating the horns so as I had a 'spare pair' of sidelights that seemed a good place to start.

Like you I am not keen on the blue tint from some white LEDS but make an exception for DRLs as their blue light is more visible.
However the blue remains visible with the headlights illuminated, that's why I'm keen for them to extinguish when the side/headlights come on.

Dave's link to Paul Hunt's set up looks like the solution I'm looking for.
Incidentally is this Paul Hunt the same Paul Hunt at Power Track Ltd?




Jeremy MkIII

I'd strongly guess no, our Paul Hunt for all his good qualities wouldn't have much to do with more than, or up to, standard power on our cars. :)
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel,

I should have said the website is powertrackbrakes.co.uk, they supply Lockheed and Girling brake and clutch components.
Jeremy MkIII

Jeremy,
I knew it was the brake people as I stored you suggestion about them a good while back, what's good for you is bliss for me!

Every little helps with the lights drawing attention but our cars are below the usual eye level for the Chelsea-tractor driving brigade, I used to drive a very bright-yellow car with the headlights on during daytime and people would still pull out in front of me as if I wasn't there.

Why is it that if someone pulls out of a sidestreet on the rhs they do so slowly and often then turn off right (or visa-versa) or worst still really pulls out in front of you late and then dribbles along slowly holding you up.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 22/06/2020 and 04/07/2020

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