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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Diesel Grey smoke (NMC)

Collective wisdom needed please.

The modern(ish) 2011 Berlingo (62,000 miles) is emitting grey smoke all the time. It's bad enough to see in the rear view mirror and cars behind are leaving a sizeable gap!

Have used premium diesel, Forte diesel cleaner and lastly Forte injector cleaner, all to no avail.

Diagnosis by the local garage (so far):
Otherwise runs fine, good performance, steady idle
Oil level normal - not using any nor adding fuel to the level
No fault codes on OBD reader
No back pressure on DPF (was cleaned in October last year)
No air intake leaks
Turbo is fine

My only extra thoughts are
Blocked air filter or fuel filter
Compression test but as it doesn't use oil between services, excessive engine wear shouldn't be an issue should it?

Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks!
Jeremy MkIII

Might it be eater vapour, mixed with exhaust?
Any sweet smell of antifreeze?
GuyW

I'd go for the fuel filter.
They're not madly expensive.
Airfilter even cheaper.
Eliminate the easy things first.
Greybeard

Sorry Guy, eater vapour - not heard of that? The smell is a gassy smell not a sweet one.
Grey - agreed start with the easiest. Would the OBD reading not show up a blocked filter, either air or fuel? I'll ask if they've physically inspected the former.
Thanks for the responses, much appreciated.
Jeremy MkIII

LOL! Jeremy, eater = water, unless you are my laptop predictive text!
GuyW

I'm with Grey-
Filters first--specially the air filter seeing it's a pain to get to it's probably not been changed.
With older timed pump diesels I would have said fuel filter as a blocked fuel filter starves the pump and the first thing not to work properly is the advance system ,,causing smoke, but then that works like a bit of a rev limiter as well so easy to diagnose-
But, your Belingo would be common rail so fuel pressure won't blow smoke.
Usually it's a sign of a dead turbo but if it's going ok probably not - so airfilter first---check it hasn't pulled a plastic bag or something off the road up into the inlet ducting and while you're doing the aircleaner (lucky boy) check that the airflow meter is clear of any little pieces of rubbish (leaves) and give it a good squirt of carby cleaner while it's off--It's a hotwire flow meter and relies on the wire being clean to operate properly
If that doesn't fix it ,get your garage girl/guy to put the diagnostic gear on it and get fuel rail pressure up as a graph--with the engine running(idling) the pressure line on the graph should be dead straight and steady--'IF'the line is jiggling up and down in a little waveform at the same speed that the injectors are pulsing, then that's a sure sign the injectors are stuffed and compression pressure is blowing into the rail---it will blow smoke and performance will be down a bit if it's the injectors---if it has got a fluffy fuel pressure you could get the injectors out and have them tested.
End of good news story
willy
William Revit

Haha Guy - that didn't even cross my mind😏!
Willy, thanks for the detailed suggestions; will try them in your sequence and ask the chap at the garage to do a test on the fuel rail pressure.
Just hoping it's not the turbo as that's likely to be expensive; mind you injectors don't come cheaply either.
Jeremy MkIII

q WE rty.

Typo vs predictive text? 😉

Happens to me a lot.

anamnesis

Jeremy - while your garage fella has his stuff hooked up he could probably monitor boost pressure and give it a rev to check the turbo's spooling up.
If it were the turbo, you'd probably have had an engine light on and it would have logged a low boost pressure DTC, so I'm doubting there's a turbo issue.
willy
William Revit

Cheers Willy, fingers crossed it isn't the turbo as they've had a camera in to check the vanes are spinning and they are. Apparently it's not uncommon for turbo rotors(?) to fail on this model.
The diagnostics are not showing anything untoward; no failed regens for instance so they're a bit stumped atm I think.
Jeremy MkIII

Update for info. Just picked it up this morning.
Not found the cause. There is absolutely nothing showing at all on the readouts but it is obviously over fuelling. He's had 3 different machines to test it.
I followed it on the way home and it's not as bad, only belching some black smoke on acceleration but not smoking all the time.
He replaced the air meter (MAF?) but wouldn't take any payment as he hadn't fixed it.
He's suggested taking it to a diesel injection specialist for further investigation and if that doesn't resolve it, then it may be an ECU fault - which is a visit to another specialist.
Jeremy MkIII

Hmmm - black smoke on acceleration does sound a bit turbo'ish ---not spooling up quick enough

Have you got the correct engine oil in it
my golf runs 5/30 engine oil and my son runs 10/40 in his turbo mazda
I got my oils mixed up once (actually i'd run out of my oil) and ran the 10/40 thinking it wouldn't matter.
It was horrible--driving off from the traffic lights it'd dump a black poof and there'd be a haze for about half way through 1st gear till the turbo got going.
I lived with it for a few months thinking the poor old thing was on it's last legs not realising it was just the thicker oil causing it---After the next oil change (with the correct oil)it returned to it's old friendly self.
It's a wonder your particle filter doesn't suck it up or get clogged

Just wondering if in fact your DPF has had a meltdown and has a clear hole through the element and you're seeing the normal diesel smoke that the DPF usually soaks up------------
Diesels without a working DPF will always show a bit of exhaust smoke under acceleration
William Revit

Another thought--is your guy a Citreon dealer-
If not it might be worth swinging by your local Citreon dealer and get them to plug their gear into it and see if it's pcm has the latest tune for the model it is.
If it hasn't been to a dealer for ages it 'might' have missed out on being upgraded
I know that at the multi brand dealership that i ended my working life at, when an upgrade/reflash came out for a particular car we'd reflash them as part of a service - most owners wouldn't know it happened and owners that had decided to get their cars serviced privately dipped out unless they came in for a particular issue.
There were reflashes for all sorts of fixes like stumbly idle, auto gearchange issues,lockup torque convertor timing, engine light issues--allsorts of things were upgraded with a simple reflash-
'Some' issues could be fixed by simply extracting and reloading the original tune if an upgrade wasn't available.
An example --i had a 6cyl ford that would stall as soon as it was started but on second start it was fine---tried everything i could think of to fix it and in the end did a suck and blow on the pcm and problem fixed--?
They get stuff in their head sometimes (computers do that) and just need a refresh, you can try wiping the memory and all the tricks in the book including pulling your own hair out then someone says did you try a reflash---and bingo it's fixed
willy
William Revit

Cheers Willy and thanks for all your thinking and thoughts on this - it's much appreciated.
Like your Golf the oil is 5/30 but in the 9 years we've had it it's never needed topping up between services and atm is running well (well obviously not that well!). Starts on the button. tick over is fine, accelerates well but fuel consumption is down - again to be expected.

Could the DPF have given up the ghost? Very possibly as I've had problems with it 'clogging' last year and it had to be sent away to be cleaned, so that's a real possibility. It shows up as fine on the OBD so it's a bit of a mystery.

The garage is an independent who I've used since getting the car and know them well but I didn't ask about the latest flash updates. I doubt they will have access but thanks, that's another avenue to explore. I'm a bit reluctant to head to the local Citroen dealer as they have a reputation (which I've experienced) of looking for work but I could ask them to just flash it and see what they say.
Thanks for the ideas, certainly food for thought and for questions to ask.
Jeremy MkIII

I have a Citroen C3 picasso. Same as the Berlingo, but tarted up a bit. The diagnostics work on OBD2 but only up to a point giving mostly broad generic info. That is unless you have access to the official Citroen software. Protectionism!

Even dedicated indie specialists complain as to get access they have to pay up something like £2000 every year. And if they skip a year or two it is even more to re-register onto the Citroen system.
GuyW

Thanks Guy, typical manufacturer, even squeezing everything out their own dealers.
I'm going to get in touch with Alco, Diesel specialists, tomorrow to see what they can do to help. The car has been great over the years, very un Citroen like in my experience (Two 2CVs 😊)
Jeremy MkIII

Nothing to do with the grey smoke issue (going into a specialist on Weds) but the horn stopped working so first port of call was the fuse box and the photo shows what was discovered. Any ideas to the creature whose stash I've now removed?


Jeremy MkIII

Field mice.
GuyW

Yep, I reckon that too Guy, small enough to get in there through the tiny gaps.
The car is used just about every day so they're have to pick their time!
Jeremy MkIII

Visiting a friend’s house in France and he said the heater blower on his Opel Vectra was making a rattling noise. Had a look at it and found it was full of similar debris to your fuse box. The pollen filter wasn’t seated properly, so that appeared to be where the mouse (?) got in.
Dave O'Neill 2

Very polite little mouse - they usually like to eat all the plastic off the wiring.
William Revit

Back to the smoking.
Specialist has diagnosed failed injectors. £1300 to replace them 😧 (about 25% of the value of the car).
Apparently these particular Bosch injectors are not a serviceable part and can't be reconditioned. Others from the same manufacturer can be.
Jeremy MkIII

That's a lowish mileage for failed injectors Jeremy. Should be good for 150k surely.
Bill Bretherton

Bill, you've articulated what was mulling around in my head. There's no absolute guarantee that they are the cause either, it's more a question of 'well we've checked everything else'
I went back to the original local garage and he blanched at the price. Like you he thought that as the car is other wise running well it may not be the injectors as normally you'd expect a bit of rough running.
I did ask about the ECU but that was a definite 'No'
I reckon it's Guy's field mouse which has wee'd in the fuse box and is causing electrical gremlins.
ATM I've said no to having them replaced (£1300 as 25% was an optimistic Autotrader value of the car, it's nearer 50%) and may try those robbing bar stewards at We Buy and see what they offer before making a final decision.
Jeremy MkIII

I know little (actually nothing at all) about diesel engines, but can an injector not be inspected and tested? I have heard of them blocking, and being cleared with an additive in the fuel + an Italian Service. But I think you have tried that. Or can the be visually checked for wear or damage?
Alternatively, if they are not responding to electrical instructions can their operating parameters not be checked out against their design specifications? With a meter?

It seems an expensive item to chuck out on the basis that it 'might' be faulty!
GuyW

Old style injectors were tested in a protective glass/Perspex box and pumped up and you see see the spray pattern or dribbles if worn etc and new needles fitted etc - normal practice for the old boat diesels etc.

Worth checking with a fuel injection shop - used to use Lucas CAV agent but doubt if they still exist.

R.
richard b

You and me both Guy.
You would think they could take them out, inspect, clean, test and adjust and then refit but apparently it isn't so. Once in that's it, if you take them out then they're scrap - I didn't ask why why should have done. I was told by the local garage that if you use too much torque to remove them (13?newton metre thingys) they will break so maybe that's the reason, they're covering themselves maybe?

Yes you're quite right, the French car has had an Italian tune up (that's what the M58 was built for), has been run on premium diesel for the last 4 fill ups, has had 2 doses of Forte diesel system cleaner plus one Forte injector cleaner - all it seems to no avail.

I was prepared for a bill between £400-600 but not for £1300; that's taking the p.

Thanks Richard, I wish they were old style injectors. This place is the nearest diesel injector specialist so I'm a bit stuck. Because it's now such a faff to change them apparently, the local garage sends this work to them 😧
Jeremy MkIII

Interested to know if you mentioned monitoring the rail pressure to them, as mentioned earlier it's a known (to me anyway) way of checking if the injectors aren't sealing correctly----unfortunately there's no cure if they're dead--but they can be bench run and checked for sealing and spray pattern--very very susceptible to damage by moisture/water in the fuel.
Just be carefull if your garage fella isn't sure what he's dealing with, there's two types of electronic injectors-actually there's several but we'll deal with the basic 2
One type is a basic on/off injector and if they pull the wiring connector off it while running then that injector stops working
The other type is a piezo injector which uses a signal to turn it on and then another signal to turn it off-IF you pull the plug on one of these with the engine running (don't) and the injector happens to be in the on position at the time it stays on and the engine on that cylinder will get heaps of fuel continuously until replugged--if the engine lasts that long
Not sure which type your citroen has so just be carefull---specially if you have mice helping your wiring.
Unfortunately the old days of recoing diesel injectors is coming to an end, I've had these apart and there's nothing rebuildable in them just heaps of flat shims that rely on absolute cleanliness and not much else not anything like the old needle and seat type that could be reground/seated and calibrated on the bench to the correct crackoff pressures
William Revit

Willy, I did mention it to both garages and they assured me they had checked the pressure and deemed it ok - whether they did do the check or not I can't say...but I trust the local guy so suspect he has done it.

The second garage, the diesel injector specialist, said once they fitted the new injectors they couldn't take them back out again - so I'm thinking they were not going to actually check the original injectors, just replace them as everything pointed to them failing ie everything else is working.
They're Bosch injectors but that's the limit of my knowledge, don't know whether they're piezo or not.
Just been reminded the MOT is due in a month so the We Buy Any car option is no longer an option.
I'll have a look for other specialists and see if I can find some reconditioned injectors for them to fit.
Thanks for all the advice and help Willy.
Jeremy MkIII

2nd hand Berlingos are pretty cheap.You could probably get a complete lower mileage, long MOT car for less than the £1300!
Or a gamble on a complete cylinder head with injectors from a breakers?
GuyW

That's definitely an option Guy.
I've found some remanufactured injectors for £90 a pop (with a year's warranty) and there's a garage which has been recommended not too far away which may be able to test the old ones and fit the new ones.
So even if all 4 need replacing that's going to be considerably lees than the initial quote.
I didn't appreciate just how many different injectors there are even for the same engine!!
Jeremy MkIII

This thread was discussed between 08/02/2024 and 01/03/2024

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