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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Does the team think? Brake cylinder clips

I have been struggling...

No that is not quite true, I have been suffering trying to fit the 'stupidclip'® to the rear brake on the nearside of Lara

I have broken almost all of the free world's supply of spare, as in not in the box with the cylinders, E clips trying to use that unbelievably useless 'fitting tool'

All got mangled in the process

Some got cut in two

Which I accept is almost certainly due to my own ineptness but doesn't help me get the things fitted :(

After the recent discussion of Dr John Davies' articles in Mascot I decided to attempt a return to earlier, simpler times and use the circlip and washer method of retention

It was easy enough to stick my caliper into the slot and measure for the circlip size, which is an exterior circlip with interior 5/8" diameter and then obtain a few but as Dr John points out there are no Belville washers outside of captivity anywhere

I have been scouring the washer boxes in the garage with no success looking for the size I need to fit both the circlip and the cylinder, I was hoping for a spring washer I could heat up to relieve the tension and fit in place of the Belville washer but so far no luck

And none visible on the interweb

I did find a copper washer of exactly the right dimensions, the question is, shall I dare fit it to the backplate?

My reasoning is like this
The cylinder is supposed to have a small amount of 'float' to permit minor adjustment due to lining wear but the cylinder sits on a bed of cardboard inside the backplate which itself doesn't usually wear away and the copper washer itself would allow a certain amount of play for the said requirement

My big problem is, will it wear away in weeks or maybe will it sit quietly for years like the real deal did?

Comments and opinions are invited, but I really do need to get this car off its stands and onto the tarmac

It has been far too long since I drove her and the New Year awaits



Bill sdgpM

Bill, my sympathies. A rotten job.
I have only been successful at putting these springs on with the backplate off the axle. It may seem a lot of bother to go to but I have found it is quicker in the long run.

As regards Belville Washers. There are a number of hits on Google but they seem to be manufactures. No sign of stockists that I could see.

To fit (off the car) this is what I do.
Clamp the cylinder in a vice, brake inlet uppermost (of course) with backplate resting on vice jaws. Take the 'stupidclip'® and bend one tongue forward the other back but don't be too excessive.
Place forward leaning tongue in groove in cylinder. Use a screwdriver to lever the backward leaning tongue over the edge just past the beveled edge where it should stick.
Place suitable size socket over clip and gently tap down if there is enough grip on the cylinder. If not I use a wide throat welding clamp as an over-centre clamp between the socket and the underneath of the cylinder while still clamped in the vice.

Rob
MG Moneypit


Bill - I recall in that issue the other method was suggested too. Namely, remove the pin locator on the back & drill and tap then use a screw to hold.

I used the above method over 4 yrs ago and all OK to date despite JD's concerns.

Gavin.
GN Rowles

I did think about taking the axle off the car, I was that desperate but I think the job, like so many others these days is beyond my ability/interest level

I know how, I did it before when I was much younger and built the car but at my age now I have decided not to get that involved again, there is a lady behind me with a cutting tongue

And a very hefty rolling pin who advises against it

The most irritating thing is that I did eventually manage to get the clip seated on the offside one that caused the problems in the first place

I had the previous cylinders fitted with the small screws in the roll pin hole but they did not stop the cylinders wobbling about inside the drums so I have decided not to do it again
The damage caused to the slaves and seals was very bad, so I ain't a doing that again

I think I will be using the washer and after a few miles I will lie down and see how it looks before I take her for the MOT which is overdue
Bill sdgpM

This is all about technique, once you learn the right way, its easy.
With the wheel and brake drum off, clamp a mole wrench to the bottom of the axle flange, with the head of the wrench pushing against the wheel cylinder, this leaves you with two hands free. Don't put too much pressure on the flange, as you may get an oil leak from the axle.
Position the concave side of the clip against the back plate, insert one flanged end of the clip into the slot of the cylinder, followed by the middle flange. Use a flat screwdriver and hammer to ensure that these first two flanges enter into the circular slot of the wheel cylinder.
The screwdriver is then used to lift pry the third flange of the clip up and over the neck of the cylinder to snap it into the slot.
Its a good idea to clean out any crap in the groove of the axle flange first.
I will admit to cribbing this from an online site, but I have tried it, and can now do it ten minutes flat.
Make sure you have a gap for the bleed nipple.

Dave
Dave Barrow

Regarding Belleville washers/disc springs I've always had good luck with Springmasters http://www.springmasters.com/disc-springs/index.html and while they have/had a minimum order for account customers I've always found that doesn't apply for non account customers which I am.
David Billington

Dave you have described this procedure exactly right,with the exception of the hammer,and also the correct way round for the clip,if you fix the wheel cly so it cant move, so you have both hands free fitting these clips is no big deal, I was shown this method 50 years ago when I was an apprentice, and have always been able to fit these clips first time in seconds, to test if its in correctly put a screwdriver between the cly and the backplate (looking at the cly drum side) and gently prize the cly to flex the clip if its in correctly you will feel it trying to retract, if its not it will fly off, don't forget fitting these clips is no big deal if you do it like this,
Andy Tilney

I do it as Dave Barrow describes, except:

1. I use a tapered wooden wedge betwen the half shaft flange and the brake cylinder to hold the cylinder firmly into the backplate.

2. On my axle there is a small slot formed between the backplate and the axle casting that the 'heel' of the dreaded "C" clip fits into, with the open side aligned to give the clearance to the bleed nipple.

3. I lever the clip into place with a screwdriver as described. But the centre tang does not locate into the cylinder groove until AFTER the third tang is levered up onto the neck of the cylinder. If you tap it back into the groove too soon then there is too much twist on the C clip which then distorts and fails when you attempt to lever the third tang on. Leave the middle tang sprung against the neck until the third tang is levered on and then punch them both back into the retaing groove.

PS, yes, I missed that Andy! The clip goes the other way around!

Bill, I have emailed you
Guy
GuyW

I have just reread my post and it may sound like I have said Dave has the clip the wrong way round, due to my bad description what he wrote is the correct way round concave side to the back plate, (most important)
Andy Tilney

Keep practicing Guy and you can do it without the use of the hammer, when I was at college the lads who worked in other main dealers of makes that did not use these clips,always used to moan about these clips asking how do you fit these clips, we always laughed, and said that's nowt try changing a o/s engine mounting on a mini van with an automatic gearbox,
Andy Tilney

Gentlemen, The wretched 'C' clips cannot be fitted properly to the early axles because they lack GuyW's cut-out. Grinding or cutting bits off a 'C' clip to make it fit is not recommended: this can seriously weaken the clip and seriously compromise safety. As far as I can tell (from the factory Parts lists), the wavy 'Belleville' washers were always fitted by the factory to all cars. Although these washers have been unavailable for years, the good news is that AH-Spares have commissioned remanufacture. These special washers (+ the circlips) will be available soon from this excellent company (probably late January 2018). Look out for an update on this matter in MASCOT. Happy New Year! John
J.E. Davies

Andy, When I agreed with you about the clips going the other way round, I thought the confusion was about which way the open side of the C clip faces. I thought the open side of theC was what Dave meant by the concave side! All as clear as mud!

I didn't want to steal JE's thunder by mentioning the imminent availability of the Belville washers that he has been working to enable. And maybe Bill doesn't want to wait that long. C clips are perfectly do-able, though there is a certain knack to it!
GuyW

OK this discussion has made up my little mind

I knew John would have imminent news on this topic too but I do need to get the car on the road a.s.a.p so I intend fitting my washer as is.

Now we have an idea of the time scale for the release of the proper washers I will revisit the backplate to retrofit the steel ones as soon as they become available

My engineering soul hated the E clip (stupidclips®) things with a vengeance which might explain my inability to get them fitted, considering you all managed the task

My soul made me mess it up ho ho hum

Although in fact my arthritic hands were the real culprits, lying on the cold floor inside the garage by the door didn't help

John I want to thank you for tackling this menace to safe motoring and if you let us know the release date when you have it I will tell the world Dr John did it

Thanks for the discussion guys
Bill sdgpM

Of course, to replace a Belville washer you need to remove the brake pipe. To replace a C washer you don't. One way you win the other you loose!!!!

Rob
MG Moneypit

Guy I am not sure what you are talking about being as clear as mud, I was talking about which way round the wheel cylinder clip should be fitted, in the picture you can see the clip has a convex and a concave side, the concave side (the side on the right in the picture) is the side that goes next to the back plate, but I am sure you know this, if you were talking about something else, I didn't understand sorry,


Andy Tilney

Andy, I meant my comment was clear as mud!
Sediment has all settled now though. ;-)
GuyW

Rob, removing a pipe and reconnecting it even with the subsequent bleeding procedure worry me less by far than using those verdamt items of mockery

:(
Bill sdgpM

Bill,
I know a bit of how you feel as I started with a rear brake problem just over a week before the NEC and because of various problems including weather and knees the job isn't fully finished yet.

Having met I know you'll not take this the wrong way but you're the third mechanic to seem to have a bit of a problem with the clip tool (assuming yours is the same type) yet it seems so straight forward to me with extremely limited skills so perhaps it's a matter of my lack of experience and practice that makes it fresh and easier for me.

One of the three is the guy in this video making it less easy than it is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhJdQWljw0I

Once fitted the E-clips don't fully sit nicely anyway.

My mate, who the first of the three and has done the job dozens of times back in the day, reckoned that the paper gasket was only as a spacer to take up a small amount of excess gap.

I'd gladly send you the tool and E-clips I have but the clips would only be good for test fitting as I've fatigued them fitting and removing and testing to see how it could go wrong.

You obviously need the pipe off to use the tool but I've found a clean 5/16" UNF set-screw useful enough as a plug to stop fluid loss (in T-piece at least).

I hope I've got E-clip right way round in photo below and if you want photo or at a different angle or any other info just let me know (see e mail hot link above).

Cheers.



Nigel Atkins

ETA: (I think) I mean 3/8" not 5/16"
Nigel Atkins

Nigel. I am surprised at you, unfortunately you have the clip the wrong way round, come on Nigel you will have to shape better than this,if you ever come to the Lakes, I will give you lesson on how to fit these clips, may I ask how long have you lived in Northampton, I was born and grew up there, do you remember Henley's in Derngate and then at weedon road, they were Austin Morris MG main dealers
Andy Tilney

I am glad you said that Andy! I have always faced the clips around the other way so that the clip 'springs' against the backplate retaining some tension. Any pressure to pop it off again then digs the tangs harder into their groove rather than springing the clip off.
GuyW

Here is a discussion from the MGExperience on the subject.

"For those who hate the E clip that comes with rear cylinders, here are the proper retaining rings and spring washers that match the original factory ones, and as a bonus, are available in stainless steel:

Grainger #5DA81 = 11/16" external retaining ring, stainless steel.
Grainger #6ZA12 = 11/16" wave washer (3 wave), stainless steel.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/static/products.html

Because they are only available in packs of 10, you will have enough of them to last for 100 years (at the rate of once each 10 years).

The other alternative of pulling the roll pin, tapping the hole and attaching with a small hex head screw. Though, perhaps the original design which allows some "float" helps the shoes to seat better. The rear brakes do so little of the work that it might not matter either way."

Grainger is a large, industrial supply house. If you go to their website and click on "Worldwide", there are some links showing a partner in the UK -
Ignite Procurement in Gwynedd. They also have a subsidiary, and I take this directly from their website:

Untied Kingdom: www.cromwell.co.uk

The untied Kingdom - :)


Jack Orkin

Hi Andy,
interesting stuff I was only going on memory so I'm never sure - but - in that video he also says to make sure they're fitted that way, of course he could be wrong as in the other long video I'm pretty sure he has the handbrake lever the wrong way up.

I'm not sure which way they went on my car and it's too dark, cold and car muddy to see at the moment and I found that video after the work was done.

In my mind they could go either way round, one way to hold more and the other (as my photo) to allow more movement.

As you can tell I'm not sure I was right in that photo.

Northampton -
I'm only a mere lad of 57 and didn't move to Northampton until around 1974, I only remember Henleys at Weedon Road.

I used to live in Spencer Estate and then on to the edge of King's Heath (near the Morris Man). Where I live now, near the Lumbertubs pub (or farm house if you're old enough), I have neighbours in their '80s who have lived in N'pton all there lives, "gooing duwn tuwn, me duck".
Nigel Atkins

Well the tool looks the same as mine - Lockhead box etc.

Totally useless - made of cheese - E clip lugs dug into the cone ramps and destroyed the clip - cone not hardened at all - probably because I had mine the other way to the guy in the video !
Can't find mine at present to check if it came with instructions - will further search it out.

Does it really matter - the force is the same if it is securely located into the groove ?

I now fit mine with a big screwdriver.

R.
richard b

And Richard has the debate, for me

Nigel thank you for your kind offer and thank you all for participating in this questioning thread
"Made of cheese"

If only mine had been properly made and even more, properly built this job would have been over in minutes

I do so wish that I lived in a land where wave washers were so easily procured Jack

!00 in a box, there is no way I can do that

The UK link is for 100s at a time

Oh well back to waiting :(
Bill sdgpM

100! Wow, here it shows a box of 10. Bummer.
Jack Orkin

I'm seeing 22 dollars per pack of 10 here too.
David Smith

Nigel Thank you for your reply and the Norfamptun slang, when I was growing up every body sounded like that, in 1974 I was working at Henleys at Weedon Road we had not long moved there from the workshops in Derngate and it was the same year I finished my apprenticeship there, sorry I know this has nothing to do with wheel cylinder retaining clips,
Andy Tilney

Bill,
email me I have a solution.
Nigel Atkins

O/T

Andy,
you might know my neighbour, he was then a dodgy car salesman, worked at Swann Street and other places, John Woolsomething (can never remember proper pronunciation so no idea of spelling) and I'll have to ask my other neighbour about his relative that I think was a Henleys mechanic, in 1977 at least.

You might know my other mate from the Muttock family they're from Moulton and Nufam'tun.

My other neighbour is mates with Bob Lines who's dad had the BMC garage Grafton Street way.

It was the mid-80s before I had a car that went anywhere near a dealership and then it was Skodas over at Frank Cook's, Wellin'brer.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Richard,
the E-clip that comes in the box and the yellow replacement ones don't sit flat when fitted because they ride against the manning(?) flange on the axle so the bend on the clip outwards helps a very little. In the video I linked to I forgot they use their own clips which are narrower to sit against the backplate.

You'll notice a dent in the cone of my tool where I was trying it out to see how it worked but didn't screw it into a cylinder so the clip just trapped in the tool. However with the tool fitted to one of the old cylinders, hand held off the car, as I had two spare clips, I've trial fitted the clips dozens of times very easily without problems, it was only removing the clips so often that has weakened them.
Nigel Atkins

Richard,

Lockhead? I've heard of that spelling being used before on counterfeit parts.
David Billington

You could always retrofit discs/calipers to avoid the E clip......
Oggers

David, no incorrect spelling - too late at night and too much Butcombe !

R.
richard b

Here are the instruction for the tool - it does show the direction the clips should face - hence mine did not slide up the ramp and got caught under the 'pusher' tube and just dug into the soft ramp metal on numerous attempts.


richard b

Richard any chance you could email me a copy of that please in higher res.

As far as I can tell on my car they're on the wrong way round then but Sod's Law the torch I was using has gone dim and I can't get at the batteries as I must have had three shreddies for breakfast when I put them in or are trying to unscrew the wrong bit, I'll put some grips on it, and scratch it all up.

For the amount I paid for the tool I got they should have thrown in a full book of instructions let alone a page.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
You have mail.
richard b

Thank you.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel thanks for your help, indeed all of you

When John tells us that the washers are ready for purchase I will be in like Flynn to alter the system on my car

I have now used my 5/8" circlip and the thin washer to secure the cylinder and all I have to do now is relocate that drawing of the midget's nearside brake shoe fitment and slip on the drum so I can bleed and use the brakes'

The cone on my 'fitment tool' is scarred to heck and back and althou8gh I see what they were trying to achieve it is far too big to allow a simple easy-fit solution

I think I will use my buddy's lathe and turn a new version of the tool body with no cutaway and a better fit to the cone

A newer better fitting cone is on the cards too
Bill sdgpM

Nigel,
If you put the E-clips on the way round as shown in your earlier photo then not only are they on wrong when fitted on the car, but they will also tend to dig into your cone-shaped fitting tool and it will be harder to get it to work as intended.

With it that way round, when tightened up, the sleve part presses on the outside margin of the clip. This will flatten the clip, so reducing the inside circumference and cause the tangs of the clip to bite inwards like teeth into the cone. Imagine it with the E-clip the other, correct, way round. Now as the outer edge of the clip is pushed it will increase the concave shape, and this will increase the inner circumference and widen it slightly, making it easier for the clip to spread over the cone shape.

Once the clip is in position the correct way round, with the concave side towards the backplate, then the outer edge presses against the backplate. Any tendancy for the cylinder to come loose by moving out towards the drums then it will move tigter to the backplate, flattening the clip and this causes the tangs to bite deeper into the locating groove, making it more secure.
GuyW

Bill,
the drawing you want (I hope).

I've found I have another new UNUSED E-clip, the slightly better one that comes in the box with the cylinder, if you want it you can have it with the loan of my E-clip tool (careful to get the clip facing the right way).

Just email me.


Nigel Atkins

My pedals were siezed solid just like that last year. A couple of days repeated drenching with proper penetrating fluid and lots of working of the pedals to and fro whilst locking the bolt with spanners and eventually it all came apart.
After cleaning everything up l drilled and tapped the two pedal bushes and fitted a grease nipple to each. They won't sieze up again.
GuyW

John

Thanks for sorting supply of the correct washers as well as your helpful technical articles in Mascot over a long period.

Has everyone seen this circling tool form Minispares, similar to the one that Richard has posted instructions for: https://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Accessories/Tools/TOOL14.aspx
M Wood

Hi Guy,
I see what you're saying.

Now it could be any combination or permutation of poor quality, weakened after first use, brute force and ignorance but I've had both clips in both ways going on the old cylinder held in my hand a good number of times without bother.

These clips have a thick body and wide o/d (for want of a better description) so that they raise against the manning(?) flange when fitted. That's why in that Spridget Mania video they use different clips.

Also in that video, and I'm not saying he's necessarily right as in the complete video I'm sure he puts the handbrake lever arm up on the other way, but he makes a point of saying the clip should be fitted bend away from backplate. Right way or not he gets the, presumably new, clip over the cone on the tool even though he's made the rest seem harder than it needs to.

That video was an extract from this video, rear brakes start at about 8:57 - https://youtu.be/yug-eaCaldo
Nigel Atkins

ETA: Mike I put a link and photo earlier in the thread but twice is better than not at all and it's getting a long thread Prop will be pleased. :)
Nigel Atkins

That Minispares tool looks a far better prospect to me, it looks like the one I planned to make for myself

I would buy one of those simply because it does not have that weakening of the tool 'drive' edge that the 'proper' one does

Mine collapsed at the thinned out bit within minutes of trying to use it (with no instructions- the proper method became obvious then)

Nigel like you I have a couple of the E clips available, one of which must be ten years or more old and is a little heavier duty steel than the recent ones, but I am going to wait for John to get the proper washers available and use the circlip and thin washer for now

That is the picture I was going to search for Nigel thanks, and seeing it shows me I was the architect of my own disaster many years ago

I had the spring on the wrong face of the shoe which must have had the result of sending the spring and cylinder very close to the inner face of the hub

We should be better disposed tomorrow and the drum will be on reasonably soon after starting :)

Fingers crossed

(I note from that picture that the linings have changed quite drastically since they stopped using asbestos, my shoes have the lining material almost all the way up to the end of the shoe base where the old shoes have a proper leading land on them with no friction material)

The leading edge of these simply has a 45° chamfer

Still with the rear brakes doing so little anyway I wont be worrying
Bill sdgpM

Bill,
the tool I have is from Moss and is slightly more upmarket than the Mini one, well it must be for the price I paid, just missing the washer.

Don't worry about shoe linings that's another thread I'll start when I finally finish my brakes (after fuel tank connection and anything else that crops up in the mean time from mean car!).

I was going to offer via email but will do so here instead I'm happy to bring my tool, new clip, myself, up to you to help or just watch and drink tea. I also have a spare new unused cylinder (please don't ask why!) I forgot I had that you could have/use.

Serious offer - I can do tomorrow - not got many ticks for West Midlands pubs, might even bring the Midget (if I can trust it).
Nigel Atkins

No thanks Nigel, not that it isn't a welcome offer but the cylinder is on and it's not coming off now without a new circlip and Belville washer to go on instead :)

Now I have confirmation that "I dun it rong larst time" I can crack on

But I sincerely thank you
Bill sdgpM

OK Bill but if I'd turned up it would have helped you realise things could be worse! :)

I'm the same with my brakes, the parts that are on can stay as there are, a mix of mileages but it's all safe and I can get some miles in to empty the tank to redo the tank connection and now drink local beer.

BTW after changing my rear cylinder (and putting a hole in the vent hole of the reservoir cap) I had another leak over my new shoes and changed the supply pipe (and another new set of shoes after 400 miles) that seemed to stop the leak. Perhaps the cylinder was fine all the time and it was always the pipe connection but I had to rush and didn't do much investigating. I will next time.

I got back ache from sitting down to do the job too!
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
Your theory sounds fine - except it didn't work for me !
Clip correct way round - lugs just dug in as pressure from hollow 'pusher tube' just started to overturn the clips before they slid and they dug in - on numerous attempts.

Very deep gouges in taper cone which as I noted is made of cheese and stands little chance against hardened and tempered spring steel.

I will also be in line for the old fashioned washers and circlips when available - to stash away for next time.
richard b

It would be pretty easy to turn a new cone out of O1 tool steel and harden and temper it so it is suitable for service.
David Billington

As mine is broken anyway if I was going to remain with the clips I in order to get the clip nearer to the size of the boss it is intended to slide up to I would make a new one with a slight redesign of the cone's taper
Bill sdgpM

Am I missing something, is the AP one with an angled tube face or something? The expensive Moss one I have and the Mini Spares one have a flat tube face and as far as I can tell the one I have works with the clips either way round (unless it's not fitted to the cylinder then it marked the cone) - so it works. Are different clips being used on the AP one or is its cone that soft?

I'll have the other clips for stock too but do they fit as easily as when using the tool I have?

Having a good night I got the torch batteries changed.

Bill,
not that it helps but my rear brakes saga is probably more annoying than even yours but I now worry a lot less about stuff on the car than I used to years ago.
Nigel Atkins

ditto Nigel :)
Bill sdgpM

This thread was discussed between 28/12/2017 and 31/12/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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