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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Door skins

Has anyone fitted a midget door skin with success?

My doors are pretty good apart from some rust at the bottom, just the skin not the structure. I would ideally just get new ones but mine are all cut away on the inside and it seems a shame to do that to a £200 door!

I'd thought of cutting out the rusty part and welding in a strip (probably needs 12" x 3" replacing) but I know that will end up with a lot of warping and filler.

New skins are about £30 so not too bad but if its going to be a nightmare job I'll probably try the cut and shut method.

Cheers

John
John Payne

Did mine quite a few years ago. I made up patch repairs for the door bottoms and then fitted new skins. Folded edges only at first. This allow the fit of the door to be "tweeked" and twisted to hang properly, before adding a couple of spot welds at the corners to hold the shape.
Guy W

Mmm. Right away you've made me think it might not be a good idea. With all the metal cut away from the inner part of the door maybe taking the skin off isn't such a good idea. If the standard door twists and needs tweaking then mine might fall apart!
John Payne

I had considered doing this to some doors and thought it might be a good idea to fabricate a brace - possibly a cruciform structure - to bolt to the inner framework, in order to stop it flexing when the skin is removed.

Does your door frame have enough metal left to allow you to do this?
Dave O'Neill2

Ive done it....mixed results

When I got my midget, there wss a huge dent.in the door, so got a skin from moss and had a pro install the skin

It kooked great, but the problem is the reforming the door to fit ...on mine the door kind of winged out at the bottom...its taken some various persuasions but its finally looks good about 4 years ago

Would I have a door re-skinned agian ? Only if I took the whole car to the pros and had them get the fit correct, other wise,.id just get another high quality door thats already assembled and ready to be mounted, just paint change out the interior panals, wash the door glass, and install on the car...done

Granted you might pay $300 -$400 for a fully operational high quality door, but in the end, I think its worth the investment just to avoid the aggervation / sensation, that some idiot out there needs to die, not to mention the huge time savings...wet sand and prep and paint on friday afternoon, install and align on saterday Morning before the game comes on the telly .
..and no BS to get in the way
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

John, you said, "My doors are pretty good apart from some rust at the bottom, just the skin not the structure."

In which case it should be pretty easy to fix, either by using a shop bought skin(or part of it), or making up a the bit you need yourself, as Guy did. That's what I intend doing. Are your doors like this or worse?

Or just keep looking on Ebay. I bought a perfect drivers door for 22 quid this summer. If my door repair doesn't work out -- I'm sure it will -- I'll use it.




Lawrence Slater

I did both mine and was very pleased with the result. If you are going to do it with a full skin, invest in a door skinning tool. Use a hammer and dolly to get the flange part bent round the frame, holding the flat dolly on the face of the skin while tapping the flange over, then use the tool to finish pressing the flange flat to the frame. At the top you can either braze or spot weld the skin to the frame.
Something I've been thinking about if you wanted to just put a piece along the bottom, is that there are some pretty sophisticated adhesives around now that will give you some "wiggle" time before it cures and if you joggle the edge and clamp it along the join it would eliminate any distortion otherwise caused by welding.
Bernie.
b higginson

Re the concern being expressed by some on the door retaining its proper shape when re-skinned. When I did mine I had some problems with this but then realised how to deal with it when I did the second one. The clue was in my earlier reference: "to hang properly, before adding a couple of spot welds at the corners to hold the shape"

The skin itself is dimensionally stable in two dimensions, but very liable to distort as it were, across the width of the car, allowing the bottom corners to kick outwards. The inner frame provides the 3rd dimension stability, but only after the two parts are properly secured together. Although this is done by folding the edge over and crimping this still allows some movement within the seam that is produced. And this will result in a door liable to distort and fit badly.

The thing I did with my second attempt was to crimp the door skin edges and then hang and adjust the door until the fit was good. Then "lock" in that fit by adding a few welds along the inside edge of the folded down seam. Unless you do in that order, the door won't be rigid enough and the shape will alter. On my first attempt I hold folded the seam down and added the welds before hanging it, and got it wrong!

I folded down the seams with mole grips and strips of wood to protect the skin. This worked well, though was probably more fiddly than using the proper shop bought tool
Guy W

Some good info and tips there, thanks. I think I'll order one skin and have a go. I might start by cutting the lower part off with the thought of repairing using part of the new panel. If I think it's not going to be a good idea I'll carry on and do the whole thing.

Time to get the angle grinder out!
John Payne

Bite the bullet John!
It will be quite difficult to do and hide a seam part way up the door skin. It is a very flat panel which will accentuate even the slightest heat distortion if you try a butt or lap joint across the middle of it. It really will be a better job if you replace the whole skin in one piece. Be brave!
Guy W

As it happens though Guy, hiding the seam isn't so hard it seems. If you look at my pic, you can see it was repaired previously by someone. Until I took a grinder to it, I didn't know. (The door card was still on when I ground the outer skin). Whoever did it, did a very neat job, but they failed to rust protect it, and it rusted out again below the repair section. It does seem a shame to cut a complete skin to make a repair section given the cost of them, but less work than doing the whole door. And even cheaper if you make your own repair section. It's mostly cosmetic anyway, and that's what filler's for. lol.
Lawrence Slater

Yes I suppose so. I was imagining a seam higher up across the centre of the door where there is less support from the frame. A little too much heat when plug welding will easily induce ripples in the thin door skin. But for just a narrow repair across the bottom of the door like yours and I would just make a strip panel as you did. I certainly wouldn't be spending £50+ on a door skin and then cutting it up!
Guy W

Point taken Guy!

I think I can get away with only cutting out 3 inches or so which might not be too bad. But I'll concede that getting it right might be just as much work as doing the whole skin.

Another factor I have to take into account is that the inside of the doors is visible as there are obviously no door cards. So my work would have to be very neat even on the inside.

I'll get a new skin ordered from my new local supplier (Rimmer bros has started doing MGs and is 2 miles away) and man up!!
John Payne

Hi. This thread has partially answered my questions but I'd still welcome your thoughts - especially from you John to report on how your door project went.

This is not part of a full restoration, the aim of the exercise is to get rid of the rubbish paint which comes off when I remove track numbers and re-spray with known paint.

I was sure there was plenty of filler as my magnetic numbers don't stick! I expected to find a repair panel across the bottom.

Stripping completed (lost count of the alternating layers of paint and primer and filler skims!) and down to bare metal revealing a frilly bottom edge that had been filled and reinforced from behind with fibre-glass. There is no 'turn-over' left along the bottom.

I figure I've got three options:
1. Complete re-skin - I think it's been done before as the layers removed from the skin were all red but the inner frame has green on it, suggesting the door's also been replaced at some time as there is no green in the car's history. The brazes holding the skin are a bit blobby and don't look to be factory quality.

2. Remove a strip about 2" wide across the bottom and insert a repair strip. I have a joddler to create a step and then I'll plug weld to stitch the panel in place. However, Bernie, can you tell me more about the adhesive you mentioned? My big worry with plug welding is the likely heat distortion, so the adhesive method is very attractive.

3. Pretend there's no real problem, treat the rust and hide it all again with filler!

Incidentally, the stripping so far is all by stripper - Starchem Synstryp - not easy to find but it's done a great job. The panel surface isn't as rusty as it looks - the rusty colour is due to the lighting inside my shed!

Colin

P.S. - Forgot to ask the thickness of a door skin - 1mm or 0.8mm or something else in SWG?



C Mee

Hello Colin, yes I did the door but even though my last post in the thread is from 2013 it took me till 2017 to get round to it!

I ended up cutting a strip about 3 inches wide and 2 thirds along the bottom. The door frame at the bottom was fairly well rusted and with previous repairs and bodges but was just about solid enough. I then cut a strip of sheet steel 1/2 inch bigger all round, joggled the top and rear edges, tack welded it in the joggle to avoid distortion and then folded the edges round. A skim of filler, some epoxy primer and then top coat and it all worked out well. I gave the inner join a good seam sealing and coat of paint as well.

The way I use my car (summer use only) I'm sure it will last for years but I think if it were a year round car I'd have replaced the door. Since doing the job I've seen the odd new door on eBay for decent money which would probably be a better idea if it were in worse condition.

Yours does look a lot worse than mine but nothing to stop you giving it a go if you've got the gear, it shouldn't take too long and it's satisfying to repair it for just the price of the paint.

John
John Payne

I just dropped in on this thread and for a moment I thought that our old friend Lawrence was back, until I saw the date of the original post.

Colin. If you Google "Adhesives to bond metal", you will get a whole raft of products from the likes of JB Weld, Loctite, Masterbond etc. They all seem to be epoxy based, so I guess the main thing is cleanliness and choosing the one with the right setting time. I know that the door bottom is not structural, and I've never used adhesive to stick metal, but they do glue the wings on aircraft nowadays😯.


Bernie.
b higginson

Caught me out too Bernie
Just about to do the Welcome back big fella thing and then noticed the date
William Revit

Save yourself a butt load of bull shot and buy a good complete door, tape it off don't remove anything and repaint it to match the rest of the car... you wont be sorry you went this direction,

Otherwise it's just hell and can easily soak up 3 days

Prop
1 Paper

The use of an adhesive is interesting. I only found out recently that Lotus use a polyurethane adhesive to assemble their aluminium chassis parts and the reason given was to avoid distortion and give more precise location. So if it can withstand the forces put on a chassis it must be pretty good.

Trev
T Mason

I first became aware of high strength adhesives about ten years ago via a friend who has a business making stainless steel tiles for use as kitchen splashbacks. During his research for adhesives to bond dissimilar materials he read quite a lot about metal to metal bonding and asked me if I'd ever tried it.
I never did get round to using it, but it has always intrigued me.
I guess door bottoms and other non stressed repair panels would be a good place to try it.
Bernie.
b higginson

Looking again at the photo of Colin’s door I think Prop makes a very good point.
John Payne

I sold 2 reskinned doors a couple of weeks back for 50 each - so bargains are to be had if you keep looking.
David Smith

Thanks for the suggestions - all very helpful.

I don't suppose anyone has a name for any of the metal to metal adhesives do they?

Digging into my dusty memory - wasn't the roof of the Triumph Acclaim / Honda Bounty bonded in place with adhesive?

I think my photo is a bit misleading regarding the state of the door. The rust really is confined to the bottom edge. The colouration on the skin is down to me bouncing ordinary light bulb light off the OSB roof of my shed, there is no surface rust.

As with most things Sprite - half the enjoyment is tackling the jobs and trying new skills or techniques so I will probably go down the repair strip route. It would be almost a nil-cost option as I have most of the materials already. I can't justify the expense of a new door and I suspect most second hand doors, David's excepted, will be in a similar state to mine. If the repair strip doesn't turn out good enough I can still try the full re-skin.

CM
C Mee

On the plus side, you wont run the risk of getting bored with the task of rebuilding the door

.
1 Paper

I've repaired my Frogeye doors adjacent to the lower edge by welding in small sections of steel followed by filler but the problem is buckling of the door skins further up. They seem quite vulnerable to it as there's nothing to "hold" then flat. I know people say "take your time, small weld, leave a while, another small weld etc" but each weld is shrinking the skin as you move across the width of the door so it's almost bound to buckle further up. Not that I'm that experienced at MIG welding but it's the doors I've had most trouble with. I know you're supposed to hammer and dolly the welds to stretch them out but it's easier said than done.
Bill Bretherton

Finally getting round to cutting metal out and cleaning up the inside bottom of the door before fitting a repair section.

The bottom is sound enough with a couple of pin holes to deal with but I realise that there are no drain holes. Is this correct?

If the doors were made without drain holes, has anyone cut any?

I'm thinking of putting one towards the rear, shaped so that it's facing rearwards.

At the moment I'm intending to coat the inside of the bottom of the door with underseal or similar - any thoughts or suggestions.

Colin
C Mee

Colin,
if you only had that Driver's Handbook you'd see there should be three(?), give me a moment or so and I'll scan my copy for you. I'm very lightheaded at the moment from having my annual bath before the year ends but keep quiet about it as I forgot to inform Anglia Water and Dynorod so they could have workers on standby.
Nigel Atkins

There should be three drain holes in the bottom of the door.

These are often missed when the door bottoms are repaired, as the repairer rarely has anything to work from, I believe.

I would be inclined to paint the inside with bondaprimer, gloss, then waxoyl or similar.


Dave O'Neill 2

Colin,
wow, I remembered correctly there are three drain holes (oval IIRC again?) in each door.

When I was at the NEC shows I looked for your particular book but couldn't see it (but that's not saying much) i was hoping to buy up the suppliers and hold you to ransom with them. :)

Pages 10 (text) and 11 (drawing below) in my copy of the good book.




Nigel Atkins

Rather than underseal good quality antirust paint prior to assembly and then coat inside with cavity wax.

I use Bilt Hamber products i.e Dynax S50 I find their stuff very good - mail order only.
They do a good weld thru' primer also.

Yes there must be drain holes in the bottom - they are fairly tight up against the door skin from memory.

R.
richard b

ETA: Dave beat me to it, I'm still working out the new s/h scanner and my computer goes slower during a thorough virus check.

(and now Richard) - yes they're very close to the outer skin from my memory

PPS - just had a look on my car, yes they are close to outer skin but I was wrong they're round not oval
Nigel Atkins

The original 3 drain holes are quite small and do clog easily. When I re-skinned my doors many years ago l drilled four 1/2" diameter holes and they remain clear. I also coated the edges of the door flanges and the skins with seam sealer before folding and crimping the door skin edges. This prevents damp getting into the folded seam.

Another thing to watch for is that you don't distort the door when either re-skinned or patching. I found it best to mount the door back on the car to allow frequent closing too check that it still fits the opening ( they can go rhombohedral) and also that they remain flat in profile so the bottom corner doesn't stick out - a common fault on repaired doors!
GuyW

It must be all that rain and mud you have up there as I can't think I've ever needed to unblock them.

I've got a special tool to check with - a yellow cable tie.

Sills, yes, so I drilled a few more holes in them a few years ago.

Nigel Atkins

“A common fault on repaired on doors”

Yep both of mine stick out by 1/8 inch at the bottom corner :(
Something I need to sort out eventually.
C MADGE

When I reskinned an MGB door I laid it face down on a good sheet of 18mm ply and used a hardwood block and hammer to close the flanges - rolling the door so the area of flange I was closing (working the flange a little at a time) was always fully supported and solid to strike agains - especially on the bottom edge - worked very well.
richard b

Thanks for all this info. I was pretty sure there ought to be drain holes there.

I've just been out and checked again - definitely no drain holes - but I have now realised that the whole of the bottom plate and lip have been replaced in the past - the neatest bit of welding that I've found on the Sprite so it wasn't that obvious amongst all the other crustines! The insert includes a pressed in rib which made me assume it was original. The holes will go in as soon as the zinc primer I just sprayed inside has gone off. It's going to get another coat before any other paint and Waxoyl goes on.

This door has had an awful lot of work done in the past so I'm happy to treat this all as a learning exercise. I've made and trial fitted a repair panel but I'm not 100% happy with it so I'll have another go tomorrow.

The comments about sticky out doors certainly apply to my driver's door - start-line marshalls are always checking that it's shut - so I guess there will be even more problems to solve on that one when the passenger door's finished.
C Mee

Colin,
Fit the door as best as you can - if it still sticks out a bit, a length of 4x2 is inseted into the door aperatures at the rear and whilst someone supports the rear of the door force on the timber to rotate the bottom end in as required.

Remember to try it with the door seals as well when fine tuning.

Sounds a bit brutal but thats how they were made in the day !
richard b

Colin

Have you considered using a body adhesive?

Something like the following 3M product may be worth a try for a door skin and could offer a lower distortion option compared to welding: https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/company-uk/3m-products/~/3M-Panel-Bonding-Adhesive/?N=5002385+8709313+8709338+8711017+8711413+8712771+8724333+8729851+3293241847&rt=rud

To find a retail stockist Google the 3M part number.

(Other 3M products: https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/company-uk/3m-products/~/All-3M-Products/Automotive/?N=5002385+8709313+8711017&rt=r3)

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Sorry about the duff weblink to 3M Panel Bonding Adhesive 08115. The spec and page is on their website, just can't get the cut n paste of the weblink to work.
M Wood

Mike

Thanks for the links. That's actually the route I've decided to try, despite just having finished a short welding course at my local college! I thought it worth a try to avoid the risk of heat distortion.

I've already got the adhesive: Teroson MS9220, as recommended by the local paint supplier. I'll report back when the job's done.

Colin
C Mee

I finally managed to hand and re-assemble my door today.

After stripping the door and finding more rust than expected (why was I so surprised?) I made and fitted a repair panel across the bottom. Thanks for recommending a trial fit - Even though my panel fitted the frame closely, I was appalled by the size of the bottom gap at the back, 'till I checked old photos and saw how bad it was before - I still eased the joint a bit before gluing it but it's still larger than I would like. Having said that, last weekend I took a close look at a friend's Midget - on both doors only one gap was straight (a different one on each door) and though the tops aligned they both looked as if they were on crooked!

Using adhesive instead of welding, I wanted to clamp the joint while it went off. I was worried that a chunk of wood spreading the load inside the door could cause kinks at the ends. Instead I folded up a cycle inner tube and held it with cable ties, then inflated it inside the door to give an even pressure over the length of the joint, a stiffish batten clamped over the outside did the rest. Most of the length of the joint ended up very close, it could have done with being a bit tighter at one end.

I treated myself to a DA sander and, after much filling and sanding I took the plunge and started spraying. The etch primer 'sank' a bit over the filler but several coats of primer filler dealt with that. The mower shed wasn't seeing much action so I rigged a spray booth with sheets of polythene and a flood lamp with the door lying on a stool. My master stroke was nicking a heat lamp from the kennel which helped the paint go off really quickly, even on some very chilly days last month. After rubbing back there were still a few blemishes, so I treated it to some more top coat. I'd practised each layer by spraying the back and inside, so I got through far more paint than I should have done. When the weather's warmer I'll give the inside a good coat of Waxoyl.

Having removed more filler than I expected, I tried to keep my filling to the minimum. As a result, after rubbing back and polishing, the less-tight end of the joint is visible.

As I've said previously, I was treating this as a learning exercise, and I certainly learnt a few things when it came to reassembling the door! It all started because, every time I removed track numbers from the door, a load of paint came off too! To protect the door from my usual clumsiness, I taped the edges with frog tape, and, thankfully, they made it through without any accidents or chips, and I breathed a bit sigh of relief when the frog tape came off without any of my nice new tape attached.

Here's a couple of before and after photos. It's far from perfect and the colour match isn't great, but, over time I'll be tackling the other panels and I figured 'over the counter' Damask Red was going to be easier than fiddling with colour chips to match one of the several existing shades of red.

I started work on this door in October with the intention of tackling the driver's door as soon as it was done. I'm entered in an event on Easter Sunday so I think the second door will have to wait as I can't see me completing the exercise in three weeks.

Thanks to everyone who gave hints advice, your help was really appreciated.

Many thanks

Colin



C Mee

Well done Colin.

Shame about the boring, old man's red but if it's already on the car, I know what you mea. ;)
Nigel Atkins

Congrats Colin on surviving the ordeal.
I truly believe there is nothing worse on the car then the door

Well done and looks geeat
1 Paper

Well done Colin. I have no experience at all with the adhesives so this has been interesting.
In the old days we used to braze sheet joints but I gather that's no longer allowed. Dunno why.

One question though - has the dog forgiven you yet?
Greybeard

brazing would be allowed on doors as they are non-structural.
David Smith

Thanks all - the photo does flatter it a bit!

I would definitely use the adhesive again for non-structural joints, provided I can get good pressure over the full length. It went off quickly, about 15 mins I think, but I left it for a good 24 hours to be sure before touching the door again.

As for the dogs, they're far too pampered and have been allowed to live in the utility room over the winter this year as they're getting on a bit and Fidget, the oldest one, has joints that creak worse than mine!
C Mee

Colin, what was the adhesive that you used on your door? I mean, what brand. Is there a readily available adhesive for this sort of repair? I have always welded, but am renovating my frogeye seat bases and it would seem a good opportunity to try something new
GuyW

Guy

I researched a number of panel adhesives, including the 3M Panel Bonding Adhesive 08115 that Mike Wood recommended above. In the end, I went with Teroson MS9220 which my local supplier assured me would do the job.

It was easy to use but I'm not 100% satisfied with it as the joint is visible across the panel. I blame the panel worker rather than the materials.

I think the visible joint is because I tried to get away with the absolute minimum of filler but it might also be partly due to not being able to exert enough pressure along the full length of the joint so that the adhesive hasn't compressed as much as it could have done. There just might be a tiny bit of flexibility left in the joint.

I'd certainly have no problem about using panel adhesive for hidden non-structural panel joints.

I hope that helps a bit.

Colin
C Mee

This thread was discussed between 07/10/2013 and 03/04/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.