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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Electrical issue
| Hi,
Here I am back ! After few weeks of the car running well, she decided to be a bit picky today :) I explain : i was driving, and indicators were working "when they wanted". Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Then, suddenly, all the car stop, just like she died. Turn off the key, put back, no ignition light ! Put back off, back on : ignition light again, and car start. Getting closer to home, again : sudden death... But up hill from my flat, so I could let her slide home...Since, impossible to get the ignition light on. Also indicators. But headlights works ! I did check : - no spark, not so surprise - 12.6V on the battery, even if measure on the car body. Also from the "brown wire" of control box and car body. - I did try to check between the + and - of the coil and earth, but I got really low reading, but it is a digital multimeter, so i don't know if it worked ? - All fuse are OK.... =>Is there a link between the indicators and ignition ? How to look for the short circuit (if it is the case) ? Thanks, |
| CH Hamon |
| I forgot a "detail" : starter and engine are turning pretty well :) But without spark, so... |
| CH Hamon |
| Check that you have power both side of the fuse which has white wire to one side and green wire to the other side, with ignition switched on. White wire is fed from the ignition switch and the green circuit powers the indicators, brake lights, etc. It doesn’t sound like a fuse, though, as the ignition coil and fuel pump are unfused on the white circuit. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Hi Dave, Thanks for your support. Do you mean I should put the "+ multimeter" on one side then the second side, and the "- multimeter" always on earth, and check if I have 12.5V ? I also put you a pic : do you know what the black cable circled is for....? It is disconnected now, and I can't find out where it goes... Is it my issue ? Because I did 10miles with it disconnected...  |
| CH Hamon |
| Cedric, I asked on BBS what that box was previously, thought it might be something to do with the ignition but that wouldn't explain your indicators not working (but that could also be a separate problem). Also previously asked on BBS for photo of dash and interior to see what those extra wires elsewhere might be about - does your car have some sort of immobiliser or or kill-switch or isolater. Sudden dead can be anything from battery connections and main earths onwards, ignition switch perhaps. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Dave, good catch...
I went to check, and I had 0V on both side. Disconnect the white, put back, spark.... 7V ! I cleaned the connection, cleaned the fused, and now I have something between 8 and 10.5V (it is changing, I would stay a bit instable inside this) when engine is running I checked between "-" of coil and earth, I have 4V to 5V (a bit instable, same as before); I checked between "+" of coil and earth, and I have between 9 and 10V (a bit instable, same as before) Just to give back some datas : battery is now around 12.3V, 13.0V when engine running and 13.5V if I accelerate a bit. Again, I have a digital multimeter... => Should I continue some investigations/checks ? |
| CH Hamon |
| Hi Nigel,
I think the previous owner "customised" a bit the electrical wires of the car, without updating the drawings... He had fog lights, 2 horns, "Voltage" meter in the car, and some other things... Started to get rid of some useless cables, but stop when being afraid to not have the car running anymore ! Saying this, I am afraid it is the cause now... After the Dave check done, looks like it is not. It is definitely a winter job to remove the useless cables, before they cause any harm... P.S.: indicators are back.... |
| CH Hamon |
| I think the black ‘thing’ is probably a radio suppressor, which would have been connected to the Coil. It won’t affect the running, only radio interference. It sounds like you may have a bad connection on the white side of the fusebox, or the ignition switch itself is faulty. It all depends whether the coil is fed directly from the ignition switch, or daisy-chained from the fusebox. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Would a blown ignition warning lamp filament have this effect? Aren't they in series between switch and coil? |
| GuyW |
| No, the ignition warning light is between the switch and the alternator/dynamo. It wouldn’t stop the car from running, but may stop it charging, depending on the type of generator fitted. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Um - not exactly Guy. If I understand you correctly that's actually a charging warning lamp. One side goes to the battery and the other to the alternator. If the alt isn't turning the lamp earths through the alt and lights up. If it's turning and charging correctly it has the same (+) voltage both sides of the lamp, so no Potential Difference and it goes out.
A lamp in series between the switch and the coil would stay lit as long as the switch is closed. You might be thinking about the issue of a blown lamp preventing the alternator from charging, which does happen. (Of course the above assumes that I haven't completely misunderstood your question. Apologies if I have). Edit: crossed in the post with Dave. Oops. |
| Greybeard |
| Yes, that was it ( preventing alternator from charging). Sorry! Brain fart! I would revert to my often stated "first check" for a suspected possible ignition fault, of " Does the rev counter flicker wildly when the engine misbehaves? " It could be a failing ignition switch. |
| GuyW |
| Reading between the lines I wonder if the root of the problem is poor charging. The battery could well show 12v plus when unloaded but lower when stuff is switched on, if it's not fully charged. And your running voltage from the alternator I think is a bit low and it shouldn't change much if at all with the revs. I think a healthy alternator ought to be a bit perkier than that.
I can't remember if you have electronic ignition or not, but some systems can be very sensitive to input voltage, meaning they can quit suddenly as you said. |
| Greybeard |
| From the above pic, Cedric's car appears to be running a dynamo. There may be an issue with the regulator, or it may just need adjusting. I do remember reading in a manual - Lucas or Haynes - that you can adjust the dynamo output upwards for cars that do a lot of short journeys. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| I doubt the battery is too low (for an A series engine to start) or the starter wouldn't turn the engine. The coil voltages seem odd. Coil +ve to earth should be about 12v with ignition on. Coil -ve should either be 12v (points open) or 0v (points closed). With engine running you can't reliably measure coil -ve - you'd need an oscillscope as the voltage is constantly changing. It does sound like you have an intermittent connection somewhere. |
| Bill Bretherton |
| I've found modern inexpensive multimeters to be very unreliable especially if they're not used much and are over 12 months old (perhaps you're supposed to replace them every year as a service item). Also you need to get the probes in the right places to get the correct readings.
Looking at the wiring and seeing mention of voltmeter and PO customising the electrics I would suggest a very thorough inspection and check of the wiring and connections of that voltmeter especially if it involves the ignition switch. The black box and its crooked wire doesn't inspire confidence, if it is just a radio suppressor (I can't remember but think this car is on CB points) I would remove it. I also dislike to see over length and untidy HT leads as they get in the way and show a bit of a careless attitude by the installer, it's a screw type dissy cap so HT leads from it can be made suitable custom lengths. The fog lights I would also disconnect, leave them in position if you want but not wired up from the PO as the wiring may cause trouble now or later. For the very few days of use in many years I have never found fog lights of much help or useful. |
| Nigel Atkins |
From Geoff Hutton on the MGOC forum (via Paul Hunt's mgb-stuff.org.uk website). |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Having re-read Cedric's first post I would suspect a loose / intermittent connection on the back of the ignition switch. Or a failing switch. After 50 year's of use, especially if owners have had bunches of heavy keys hanging on the switch, they do fail. |
| GuyW |
| Guy, my thoughts too were around the ignition switch and even perhaps that the indicators might be a separate problem and both might be intermittent. Especially the indicators they might go on, then off, and back on. :)
I've always been very strict about having as few keys as possible hang from the ignition - or any key ring. The other keys can cause wear with their weight in any lock and scratch surfaces plus they can be heavy and bulky to carry and store and a nightmare if you don't fully know which key is for what and many of them look the same. Could there be a touch of the Billy-big-balls about carrying unnecessarily large bunches of keys around(?). I also alternate use of the spare car (and other) keys to even wear more and check they work fully and where they are (not lost in some junk draw somewhere) same with electronic fobs, 6 month swap around. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| My 79 B had the same issue. It was the ignition switch. It was the third one in the 18 years of ownership. Not an uncommon problem. Cheers Gary 79 MGB |
| gary hansen |
| Afternoon, Thanks for your ideas. I went to play with my multimeter, and here is what I fund : - 12.3V on the battery - 12.3V on the control box "brown cable" - 11.0V on the ignition switch - 8V on the "fusebox" - 6V on the coil => Does it mean something, or I am going the wrong way...? |
| CH Hamon |
| Sounds like you have some dirty / corroded contacts somewhere that need tracking down. Going in the right direction i would say ! |
| richard b |
| Cedric & Richard: Who knows how many times these 40+ year old cars got caught in the rain with the top down over the years. After disconnecting the battery, I went through and replaced over 20 connectors and spades. I was pleased to find many "major and minor" electrical issues were cleared up. I even had one blue headlamp wire that was no longer conducting electrical current. Cheers Gary 79MGB |
| gary hansen |
| The spade connectors on the fusebox are a suspect item. If the switched live at the ignition switch is showing 11.0v but the coil only 6v then at least you are narrowing it down. The reason I suggested the ignition switch itself is because of the total power loss, followed by at least a temporary recovery. This seems more like a faulty mechanical contact in a switch, than mere corrosion. |
| GuyW |
| Why has the battery dropped from 12.6v to 12.3v in under 24 hours? |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Evening foxes (or evening Nigel, morning for others :) ),
Some updates ! Nigel, you will be happy because one of your "long term question" will be (half) answered! So, with some motivation coming from nowhere (midgets already have too great a hold on me...), I decided to continue to play with my multimeter and my lovely Midget. After few checks, I started to realise that all white wires have 8V or so, so I wanted to understand from where they come and where they want to go. I saw that on the fusebox, i have one white on the passenger side; and 2 green + 1 white + 1 red on the driver side. Having no idea what the red and white are for, I disconnected them one by one to see which one influence the ignition light : white one won ! And guess where it goes ? To my second fusebox ! Starting to feel smart and excited like Sherlock Holmes, I decided to continue to play :) So, this second fusebox is finally couple of fuse, all alimented by the white cable throught bridges. 5 goes out on the other side, so guess what ? I unplugged them one by one again :) When I fund the one for ignition, I unplugged all the other ones and kept only this one. And, suddenly, after turning the key, I could heard this lovely pump pushing petrol to my carbs ! Great sound ever when you have a Midget IMHO :) Sound of victory ? I have now 10V on the fuse and 9V on the coil ! => Do I need to continue until I have 12V....? And, also, one question disturb me... I didn't hear the pump since a while, and I though "the carb must be full". I did around 10miles, and restarted the engine since => does it mean I was driving without the pump ? Is that possible ? Waiting your feedback :) |
| CH Hamon |
| The sun is shinning here but I won't let that improve my mood. :) Time for a bollocking - Cedric I for one had forgot you car has a second non-factory/original fuse box and others wouldn't necessarily know (or remember this) so more info in future please or photos.
Of course the good book will tell you (if you read/reread/refer-to it) the original fuse box wiring and wire colours of circuits. The more wires, connections, fuses, switches, relays, earths even the more potential for problems. In normally use with a standard or fairly standard Midget and fuel pump you do not often hear the pump after the initial fill before starting the engine. Why did the battery drop from 12.6v to 12.3v in under 24 hours? Does this car have some sort of immobiliser or or kill-switch or isolator? You could also put up your vehicle profile for view to offer brief details of your car to be seen by those that click on it to help with at least some bits of info in posts. Well done on your wiring discoveries but you are going about it in a way that seems to give yourself unnecessary extra work. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| There should be battery voltage (or very close) at the fuses. I bet there is still a poor connection somewhere, possibly at the battery itself. |
| Bill Bretherton |
| Congratulations Cedric, a bollocking from Nigel is a rite of passage. Welcome to the club ! |
| C MADGE |
| Thinking about it, even with a poor connection then, assuming everything is switched off the meter should still read battery voltage at the fuses (because the meter draws negligible current so there is no volt drop). If something is permanently drawing a parasitic current (unwanted due to a fault) then there may well be lower than battery voltage. The current draw (ignition off) needs checking from the battery. If your meter has a 10A range you could try that but be EXTREMELY CAREFUL. Battery shorts are dangerous. Also some meters aren't good enough for measuring higher currents (several amps). |
| Bill Bretherton |
| Chris, Cedric's used to my moaning already and this isn't the first bollocking he's had from me or even the first labelled as such but hopefully the humour can be seen, blimey I'm even putting smilies (when I remember, which to me sort of spoils it by signposting). It's there to help, if it doesn't help it can be ignored of a bollocking back (as long as it's not too subtle or it's missed by me).
And as Bill has, I've suggested and always do, starting the search, diagnostics, preventative cleaning and checking from the battery onwards. I propose that with a car like this one leaving checks until failure is more time consuming and troublesome than doing them at the start. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Cedric said"And, also, one question disturb me... I didn't hear the pump since a while, and I though "the carb must be full". I did around 10miles, and restarted the engine since => does it mean I was driving without the pump ? Is that possible ?" No its not possible that you drove 10 miles without the pump working. What is in the carbs will get you a few hundred metres, no more. See how I used metres and not yards as Cedric is more used to metric measures. Big pat on the back for me. ;-) |
| Mike Howlett |
| Bon |
| G Lazarus |
| Treble bon (I'm bilingual). |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I think I arrived to the point that metric represent less and less to my mind, and imperial is still a principal without clear reference to me: I just don't have bearings anymore, but start to get use to it ;)
Back to the Midget, she still does what she wants... I was (trying) to follow electrical wires, but it is not as easy as it should... On the ignition switch, I got the brown, white/green and white/red, and I don't have a radio (was in the past I guess). Following them, I loose their track in the big cable... Also, I have the white which goes to the 2 fusebox on one side, and goes in the dash on the other side. All this is cabled in serial. Without it, no ignition light, so I guess it is my "main white" for the ignition. In the dash, it is splitted into different wires and hard to follow them (without dissasembling the dash....) Friday, I change the connectors which are on my white cable from main fusebox to second, because they look old. I did a small run of few miles and car went well. Yesterday, I decided to go for a longer run to test proof my modifications : again, after few miles, I lost "everything"... No more electricity, no more engine. Look like it was sudden, happened in a second, and no time to check the tach... Luckily (again), it was downhill, so I could "park". I unplug the second fusebox and plug directly the white from dash to the main fusebox, and the car started again. But it is hard to say it is the problem, because last time she started again with the same problem, after waiting few minutes and not changing anythin... Some things I fund out: - When I start the car, I turn the key, starter kicks in. If I don't release the starter, engine won't start. As soon as I release the starter (through turning back the key), engine starts. - My tach stay at 0rpm after engine starts. If I knock him :), he goes and work properly (no vibration) => Any suggestions/ideas ? |
| CH Hamon |
| It does sound very much like you have a problem with the ignition switch, although with it being intermittent, it makes it difficult to confirm. The tach issue is quite common and unrelated. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| As Dave puts.
And as Dave, Guy and I put previously, possibly faulty ignition switch - but - what is the second fusebox for and why does white wire(s) go to it, what other wires go to the second box fusebox, can the white wire be made to safely bypass this fusebox to eliminate it from the equation. Photos of the uncovered fuseboxes showing their wire connections may help. If the fusbox connections (to wires or fuses) are loose and/or dirty this will not help matters, all connections need to be clean, secure and protected. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| You could also try wiggle/wriggle tests.
Start the car and leave it running then wiggle/wriggle the wires and/or connections one at a time. Be methodical and start at one end and work forward or backward to the other end. If the engine stops you will need to retest that connection or wire to see if it repeats stopping the car in case it was just a coincidence that the engine stopped. You will also need to check that it was that particular connection or wire that caused the stoppage or whether it could be the movement transferred to another connection - but at least you might be in the right area. You could repeat the test with your multimeter if you wanted whilst wiggling/wriggling the wire or connection to confirm. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hi, Cost of the ignition switch is not so high, so I might change it to see. Should I buy only "number 9" from the pic ? Is it easy to keep my keys and barrel, and just replace the switch ?  |
| CH Hamon |
I am kind of surprise: there is only one version for all Spridget...?
 |
| CH Hamon |
| The switch pictured there is the one that is fitted to pre- 1970 cars, in the centre of the dashboard. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Is your ignition switch fitted in the middle of the dash then. If you've got a steering lock then you might need item 16 if it fits to your car. Failing that you might need steering lock and ignition unit complete (plus perhaps shear bolts). You might be able to repair your existing switch (by perhaps just clean and lubing or possibly more is required) obviously I don't know. ETA: I was as usual typing as someone else puts a shorter to the point reply. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Try bypassing the switch completely with a wire from the battery positive (or from the permanat live at the fusebox) direct to the +ve of the coil. Then try a test drive or two. This might clarify if the problem is really to do with the switch.
If it runs ok lke this, then return to look at the switch again. Check that the multiplug on the cable from the switch is properly connected. Identify the supplying wire to the switch (probably brown or brown/blue on your car) and add a temporary link wire from this to the switched output wire that goes to the tachometer and then on to coil (white). |
| GuyW |
| Hi,
It is always good to ask you before buying :) Look like changing the switch as preventive is a bit more costly than I initially though... Might try Guy idea first then :) I already identified the wire from battery -> starter solenoid -> control box -> ignition switch (brown). It is after that it get messy : one white/red and one white green getting lost in the wire harness... => Could I divide the ignition switch connector where the brown cable is plug today, into a double connector, keeping the actual brown on one, and using the second connector to....connect a cable to the +ve of the coil ? Would that make sense ? => I guess I need to disconnect the actual wire which is on the +ve of coil ? Please enjoy my Paint skills :)  |
| CH Hamon |
| I'll leave this to Guy and others as I'm not good enough with electrics (very little clue) but what you propose is not bypassing the switch as such and I'm curious as to where the white wire(s) is/are or not on your ignition switch. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| "Gemaba" means "Go and see" in Japanese. It is one of the Toyota Lean Manufacturing principle. In a word, it say that you should go on the production line and check what is really happening, instead of making theories and assumptions in front of your desk.
You will never tell enough to "young/new owners" : go and see, go and check, go and try to understand...! Why ? Yesterday I went on the car to see how to disassemble the ignition switch to fit a new one. While doing so, I fund on one of the male connector... a broken piece of a female connector! Turning my head around, and this "U-shape" connector (where two white cables are connected on one side and one white cable is connected on the other side) suddenly became more suspicious... => What I though was an another "home made connection" is in fact my white wires disconnected from the ignition switch due to a broken connector... Looking back, I feel ashamed that I didn't find it earlier, as they were in front of me for so long... Also, to be honest, I might have break them at one point, fixing something else in the car (which explain why I was able to drive more than one hour before without issue, and suddenly got few minutes max). On the other side, I don't really explain how I could get the ignition light, 9V at the coil and the car running without the white wires on the switch...? I should have been on this path much earlier, no ? Test drive forecasted this Monday, I will enjoy my Easter break first :) This car is still a mystery, and I continue to learn more, little by little, the Midgets... ;) |
| CH Hamon |
| Talking about electrical issues (and courses :) ), what exactly mean what I circled in blue and red ? - Does the red means the 4 of them are connected together ? - Does it mean that you are suppose to be able (they are old, what was possible in the 70's might not be anymore :P) to pull on the connectors and disassemble them ? and re-assemble again without tool ? I didn't try to pull on them, as I am sure I will end up with the naked wire in my hand without the connector... Thanks :)  |
| CH Hamon |
| To finish :), I always try to answer you Nigel, as "soon" as I know the answer : I got 12.5V without key in, and 12.3V when I turn the key till I have the ignition light on ;) I am kind of surprised that after playing with it (key on, off, start, stop, few miles, stop, turn key,...), I almost didn't loose anything ! If you do this with the Alfa, you can charge back the battery all night :) |
| CH Hamon |
| “Talking about electrical issues (and courses :) ), what exactly mean what I circled in blue and red ?” Those bullet connectors ‘should’ just pull apart. The red ones are 4-way and the wires are all connected together. To reassemble, you should be able to just push them back in. You may need the help of a small screwdriver for the last few millimetres, until they click into position. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Cedric, well done on finding the problem. Right, that's the encouragement over - learning for yourself by experience is great but it's better to have first researched and got guidance. The Japanese aren't the only ones with sayings, you may have heard the expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Being a person of few words I'll just put - ignition switch, photos, multimeters and their use, and as you can only put one photo per post -  |
| Nigel Atkins |
| For the bullet connections before taking them apart you could try (with the battery fully disconnected of course) spraying the insides of the connector with the likes of Servisol Super 10.
If there is an open end of the connector opposite a bulleted wire then you could push the bullet and wire out with a suitable sized screwdriver or similar. If both ends have wires then if you're lucky you may be able to move the black cover off to expose the metal connector of the the, er, connector. Another small squirt of lubricant then with a very small screwdriver you may be able to walk the bullets out enough to grab the ends with pliers to fully work the bullets out of the connector. Whatever happens always lubricate, if possible try twisting the connector and bullet back and forth in opposite directions rather than just pulling in opposite directions. You are right just pulling on the wire will risk just pulling the wire out of the bullet, more so if you do not use lubricant first. You can also use Servisol Super 10 after fully cleaning and/or assembling new connections if you are not using another type of contact protective. Remember all connections need to be clean, secure and protected. Servisol Super 10 - "A highly efficient switch and contact cleaner. It offers a combination of high purity electrical cleaning and mechanical lubrications for contacts, switches and relays". - http://www.crcind.com/csp/web/ProdDisp.csp?lng=3&idx=4983672&country=GB&product=SOL%20SUPER%2010&brand=SERVISOL |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I am not sure you are totally at fault for the breaking of the white wires ignition switch connection but do not know as you keep the secret of the previous owner's wiring of the white wires and additional fusebox.
I think you moving on to playing with a multimeter has meant you have neglected the basics and forgetting it can be difficult to progress successfully if you have not done the basics. Many elements of servicing, maintenance and repairs boils down to clean and lubricate, it is not very sexy or macho but often necessary. With a car as yours appears to be I have suggested before that you prepare to sort, repair and replace items and certainly possibly on any PO (previous owner) wiring and connections. Having the correct tools will help especially if you need to do quite a bit of restorative work. Bullet connectors (and earths) are notorious for having poor electrical connection because of crud, dirt, ingress, especially those behind the radiator grille, but many have been untouched for decades so they have done their job well and not a weak system as some seem to say. However some connections may be best replaced and certainly so if the wires are also affected and there is sufficient to cut off the ends back to clean wires and insulation. Same applies to spade connections (and switches and earths). The more clean, secure and protected connections you have the better the flow of electric and keeping it so.  |
| Nigel Atkins |
Look what i fund on my way back from work !! :)
 |
| CH Hamon |
| What can I say, I was going to say something sarcastic but you got it and it's not in many shops (well around here at least) so well done. See if you can find Contralube 770 for even more protection to exposed connections and if it's reasonably price let me know please. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| If you've got a lot of fully insulated terminals to fit and you want to save your tendons and get a pro finish then buy a 'Ratchet Action Terminal Crimping Tool', just one example below other manufactures, suppliers and prices are available. https://www.drapertools.com/product/35574/Expert-220mm-Ratchet-Action-Terminal-Crimping-Tool  |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Also another tool to add is an automatic wire and cable stripper, it cuts the outer case on twin wire flex or cables without touching the inner wires insulation. The example below includes terminal cripper but this part of it is not as good as the previously shown purpose made tool, just one example below other manufactures, suppliers and prices are available. https://www.drapertools.com/product/35385/2-in-1-Automatic-Wire-Stripper-and-Crimper  |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, Well worth it and they're not expensive these days but mine didn't come with instructions and it took me a while searching the internet to find some. The lower jaw pictured should be downwards and wire entering the crimp from the left side and the terminal connection out the right side. This results in the insulated sleeve around the metal crimp being imprinted with dimples indicating the correct part of the crimp has been used for the connector size/colour. |
| David Billington |
| Nigel, I have those as well but not Draper but look the same. These are handy for mains wire stripping https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOKARI-30900-Allrounder-Round-Flat-Electrical-Cable-Wire-Stripper-Hand-Tool/370592700665 . Bootlace ferrule crimpers are cheaply available these days and I find a handy thing to have if using stranded wiring which might be clamped on by a screw. |
| David Billington |
| David,
when I looked for instructios the the suppliers didn't seem too bothered how anything was done, not neat enough for my mind or attempts (not that I always succeed). Being right-handed with loose wires and connectors the way you describe is the way I'd do it but with wires in situ I've operated the other way round or that way round with the crimper the other way up. I've just sacrificed a dozen red and blue male spades to check on 1mm and 2mm wire and it dosen't seem to make any difference to me. I always go for double dimples in the connector and that requires correct positioning of the connector in the jaws, I think that's the important bit rather than wire direction unless I'm wrong (which wouldn't be a first). Being a bit fussy I also try to have the male or female spade horizontally aligned to the crimp crease and the creases to be oriented both together (both crimps and wires on same plane for a more level male to female alignment, it annoys me that the insulating sleeves don't fully butt up together). Also you can adjust the crimp force and crimp height with the adjusted wheel (and lock the adjuster wheel with the small screw). With the wires I've used on new red and blue connectors I have the adjuster wheel set at the first or second of the minus setting as my crimper is newish and not done a lot of work. I've just also tested the force and height on 1mm and 2mm wires and all looks fine and connectors very firm on the wires. Having small hands all these ratchet tools have too widely spaced handles, I'd happily buy any that were made for ladies even if they were bright pink to save my tendons. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| David,
that Jokari tool (not the same I know, but) reminds me of the plastic Plas-Plugs wire stripper set I used to have, the earlier blue set was better than the later black and yellow set. Not as good or versatile as the previous example but I remember they were inexpensive and easy to use. But that was in less sophisticated times when I also used my teeth to strip wires before they became too soft and doing so chipped a v-indent and crack from it. My dentist explained, going back a good few years too, that I could only get away with such when much younger. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| David, ohhh, the penny might have finally dropped with me as to what you actually meant(?) - to check you're putting the correct colour connector into the correct jaw aperture you have the connector colour insulator showing next to the coloured dot on the jaw(?) (now I've written it I'm not sure again). |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, My crimps in that style indent 1 dot for red, 2 dots for blue, and a longer bar for yellow to indicate the correct crimper was used for the terminal. Of course the wire size is important as well to ensure a sound joint. I recently replaced a yellow crimp on 1.5mm^2 wire which is incorrect, I hope the wire was doubled over but didn't check as the connector was being removed anyway and the correct size fitted which for 1.5mm^2 wire could be either red or blue, I used red. |
| David Billington |
| Sorry David I thought you were referring to that particular model style, your crimper must have different jaws ("nests"?), I like the sound of them.
With that particular Draper I get two rectangular indents on each side of the connector fitting, I take it as one for the wire connection and second as insulator grip (forget the correct word/term at the moment). That's with red and blue, not done yellow that I can remember with the Draper. I can't now remember how a previous ratchet crimper I had worked but I think it was the same as the Draper. I suppose if I positioned the connectors further out of the jaws I could get a single indent. I do crimping so infrequently, many years between each time, and of course I forget, that I have to relearn by practice at each session especially if using the cheap manual tool (which way up the split goes). Where possible I like to be as efficient and neat as possible with joints but when lying upside down with the shortest of wire tails up under the dash I tend to be less fussy if the alternative is lots more work and hassle dismantling and reassembling parts, fittings and fixings on my own car and just accept a secure fitting as like you I’ve seen very piss-poor work and it last decades without trouble so I allow myself some leeway too. Do you also have interchangeable jaws on your crimper? Like automatic wire stripper I have and put up here I know there are better examples available but it's a matter of how much time and cost you devote to work you'll so infrequently do for the additional benefits above getting the job done to a good reasonable standard. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, This shows the crimp upper jaw, they're are removable.  |
| David Billington |
This shows the resulting crimps with the witness mark to show the correct crimp was used.
 |
| David Billington |
| David,
very posh and very clever. A real pro job and high level assessment. I've never seen the like but strongly approve. Those look great, of course I'd need to see crease to wire contact and alignment. :) With my struggle for worms (remember Ronnie B in Two Ronnies sketch) I was thinking removable jaws is incorrect really more like alternative dentures. I was showing a neighbour only this week that the wires to an electric plug should be three different lengths with live being shortest, neutral next and earth longest but that protocol has long since passed like having bank notes all facing the same way for counting and dispense. I feel so old yet he's much older than me and didn't know of such things. mind he did live in America for many years. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel,
Those crimpers didn't cost much IIRC between £15 - £20 but seem the business. I've seen the result of badly crimped connections in the past where you could pull the crimp off the wire easily , not good. Also seen where electricians haven't checked motor rotation after rewiring 3 phase electrics and got it backwards and the resulting swapping of 2 phases to reverse the rotation revealed that the wires weren't clamped in the plug pin sockets but loose, 5 hp motor as well, and running for a few years like that. I like to use Duraplug 13A plugs and they still come with a card around the pins to show the wire lengths and strip lengths on the wire ends for proper installation. I like the 2 Ronnies but not sure what sketch you're referring too. |
| David Billington |
| Nigel It used to be the case with MK 13A plugs that the wires were all the same length. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| David,
£15-20 sounds great. Do the jaw sets fit the jaws upside down to allow for left handers or getting in to wires with the handles in the other position. I think Duraplug were also the ones that made the rubber top plug where you had to feed the flex through the plug top to fit it and I'd forget until I'd wired the plug and found the top, I've even disconnected the wire and reconnected them to find I'd done exactly the same thing as I went to put the plug top on, again. Loyal Society for the Prevention of Pispronunciation (very dated now but it must be taken of its time, or even a bit old fashioned even back then, brilliant writing and performance though). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0nFQgRApY |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Dave,
yes some plugs were for equal lengths but IIRC MK might have also done the "proper" sort too. One of my first duties in full-time work was putting plugs to small appliances as you bought the plugs separately as some homes still used round pin, not that I can ever remember fitting a round pin plug but they were available for sale, I can't remember many if any round pin being sold but I think I might have restocked the shelves so some must have sold or got pinched. The guy who taught me was very strict about the installation and presentation of the wiring inside the plug which has stuck with me, I'm very, very slow but make a very neat and secure job. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I once designed and made a prototype 3-pin plug that made the cable connections in the same way as Scotchblocks. The back had grips that clamped each wire separately and also grippecd the outer sheath of the flex. This was fitted and tightened with a single screw, replacing the usual six. (three cable terminal screws, two clamp screws and one casing screw) I had it tested for mechanical and electrical compliance and then hawked it round several of the then main manufacturers. Strangely, no one was interested! |
| GuyW |
| Wow-all these years and I've never noticed the dimples David. My old crimpers don't have any, but the newer set at work does.
Speaking of crimp terminals, I recently had a problem with the lifeboat port alternator not charging. So I got a spare sent up, and enlisted some help because it's a monster - 240A and very heavy. But when I lifted the deck plate I could see the battery + cable lying in the bilge. It's a 70mm2 cable connected to a bank of 8 x 115Ah batteries. The crimp lug was still on the alternator, the cable having simply dropped out. It turns out that someone had used a 95/12 lug instead of the correct 70/12 so it had never been secure, but had been there 20 years! In fact as the batteries weren't charging I'd had the crosslink switch closed to charge from the starboard alternator, so there were 16 batteries in circuit. If the cable had earthed it would have caused a hell of a fire and I wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing about it. Of course I had to log it as a defect and it caused a bit of a stink, with a notice going round every station to check all the crimp connections. |
| Greybeard |
| Nigel, The jaws can be flipped around for left hand use I just tried and put them in upside down. The Duraplug plugs I have can have the cover put on after wiring. Don't ask me how many times I have forgotten to put the cover on the flex before wiring on the other type. RS still list the old round pin plugs, 4 offerings, one here https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mains-plus-sockets/2963717/ . My Grandmas old place in Wales still had them into the mid 1980s. |
| David Billington |
| Greybeard, I've run across that also with either the wrong size crimps or badly done and the wire pulls out easily. More worrying for me is the number of times I've found mains power connectors which haven't been done up with the wire just loose in the receptacle, a number were signed off by apparently qualified electricians. In some cases it caused no issues rather surprisingly, in others it led to eventual overheating and conductor and contact damage. |
| David Billington |
| David,
being able to move the jaw nests round makes sense to me and not just for left-handers. The link to the 15a RS plug really caught me out as I don't remember that shape. I assume they still have commercial applications of round pin plugs. I think I remember in a more recent decade round pin for lighting, possibly two-pin. I'm not sure if I was thinking of two-pin for the round pin plugs back in 1976/7, IIRC it was 15a, 5a and 2a plugs back then but I do remember them as 3-pin too. The Duraplugs I was thinking of was the rubber outdoor use plug with fully enveloping cover to the rubber(?) pinned baseplate plug part and IIRC the corresponding rubber socket to make up extension leads and I remember both as being unequal length for the three wires. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, These are the Duraplugs I like to use because they're as the name implies durable https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/mains-plus-sockets/0488371 . I treat my equipment kindly and it returns many years of good service, I know quite a few people that don't treat their equipment well, or those that use it don't and it often gets banged up and bits broken. The hard phenolic 13A plugs are a frequent problem so if I'm asked to repair them I'll use one of those Duraplugs. |
| David Billington |
| I remember the round pin plugs in the 60s. IIRR it was two pin for up to 5A and three pin (with the very thick earth pin) for the heavier stuff. All that dark brown bakelite! But you could get adapters to run what you liked from whatever socket you fancied. Including the frankly dangerous plug to fit in a bayonet light fitting. My aunt had an electric blanket with one of those connected to the ceiling light fitting, which is what killed her.
My old man was partly colour blind and couldn't tell live from earth when they were red and green respectively - he used to ask me which was which. Then the colour codes changed and he had no problem with the earth, but no idea which was live and which neutral.... 😆 |
| Greybeard |
| David, like you I've seen some real horrors in domestic and industrial wiring. Years ago I worked a while for a trio of Pakistani brothers, going around in a little van fixing domestic appliances. It was a pretty good job - they were good employers. Anything I couldn't fix on the spot would be chucked in the van and taken back for the brothers to sort out. I went to one womans house to fix a water heater and found someone had joined a cable into the heater cable with a "twist and tape" join to power a portable TV wedged between the bath taps.
Another lady got tired of getting shocked by her electric stove and called me in. The cable was the old style with a lead sheath which was the earth connection and was soaking wet. She explained that it had been blowing the fuse under the stairs so her son had fixed it, but it was still giving her shocks. The "fuse" was a steel bolt which was glowing red.... In the house I have now, when we moved in, there was an electric towel rail in the kids bathroom which was not earthed and the live conductor was visible outside the hole in the connection box. And of the three wall lights in the dining room and the two in the living room (all steel bodied) not one was earthed. They are now! |
| Greybeard |
| Greybeard,
Yes some true horror stories there. I remember when the regs were tightened I thought it was a bit over the top but discussing it with another technical guy he could see the benefit of having a qualified electrician in to at least sign off all work as one of his neighbours had wired all his conservatory 13A sockets with lighting flex so didn't meet the current rating and no earth. The regs are there to hopefully save the installer and others around them from work done by people without the proper knowledge to do the job. I was discussing a 3ph extension lead with a qualified electrician and he brought up the length of the lead as if it gets too long the conductor size may have to be increased, not for the voltage drop on the main conductors in that case but in the earth as if too long it can prevent a RCD from operating properly, not something I had considered. |
| David Billington |
| “Wow-all these years and I've never noticed the dimples” No dimples on my Drapers. I was getting excited. We could start a whole new thread on wiring horror stories. I’ve seen a few. In fact, I’m still discovering some in our new (to us) home! |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| I'm not sure I'd trust rubber plugs now given all the piss-poor rubber we get on our car parts. The Duraplug I was thinking of had a corduroy type pattern and I thought it was actually marked as Duraplug but that might be my false memory. As we lived in council houses I don't remember seeing any round pin sockets, I think the first time I saw one was probably in the early '80s in a private house of an elderly couple, the property was very smart and retained a lot of original features. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| The house I bought in 1981 was wired with round pin sockets, - one in each room of a 2 up 2 down cottage. Apart from the 4 sockets it had one pendant light in each room and that was it. No cooker circuit, no water heating. No light at all in the toilet (out back). No bathroom. Sockets and lights were on 2 radial systems wired with lead sheathed cables. Wiring probably dated from early 1930s; house was a lot older than that. |
| GuyW |
| I've got a feeling that the (then) more modern and monied house owners at one time had an electric light in the best room and perhaps one socket, perhaps it was a minimum fitment package to get the electricity supply in. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| you can still get 3 round pin plugs and sockets used for lighting rated at 5 amp fitted some the other year for some table lamps switched via a light switch |
| mark heyworth |
| Nigel, Your memory is correct they have a stippled pattern on top and say 'duraplug'. I have no qualms about their longevity, been using them for years. Quality rubber parts are still made, just it seems not by the low end makers of many classic car parts which is a shame. |
| David Billington |
| David,
red letter day, I remembered correctly (I often do about things that don't really matter at the time but things like finding the keys I've just put down so I ca go out is another matter) It might be an idea to buy some rubber Duraplug plugs and melt them down for parts on our cars TRE boots for example. Mark, I was thinking of table lamps with round pins and sockets but was thinking that it was a commercial thing in hotels and pubs. I've got 2a fuse clock connector in the attic for my bathroom extractor fan, I can't remember what that looks like now. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hang on Mark, that rings a bell. I think I've seen that sort of thing used for theatre lighting, only about ten years ago. When I commented I was told it was to prevent anything else being connected to the lighting board. |
| Greybeard |
| nigel You can still get the big 15amp ones used mainly for stage lighting and a few other apllications |
| mark heyworth |
| Nigel, Melting down duraplugs shouldn't be necessary, really just wants someone to insist the makers use a suitable rubber formulation for the application after all they have the moulds just need to inject the right rubber. You don't find it in parts for moderns just seemingly parts for classics which I suspect are often made on the cheap and corners cut with materials and QA. |
| David Billington |
| Mark, thanks, David posted a link to RS (Corby near me) with 15a three round pin. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, IIRC I ran across them when looking for the duraplugs on the RS site when looking for UK mains plugs and they list 4 options, 2 x 15A, and 5A, and 2A in the round pin format. |
| David Billington |
| David,
the problem is most classic car owners want cheap - if only more didn't we might get somewhere. I'm surprised the problems haven't hit so much to aftermarket parts for moderns, perhaps it has but we don't hear about it, how many other than classic car owners know how poor the parts quality can be for our cars. I remember many years back customers were getting counterfeit parts from some modern dealerships - Mercs and Vauxhall IIRC. The classic car part suppliers are catching on as they offer alternatives that are supposed to be OE quality but what that means in reality may not be as you and I would expect of OE. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel,
Indeed my understanding of OE spec and what the marketers mean seems to be 2 different things. I recall the late Terry Sanger mentioning to me that the ARDS cars at Castle Combe, IIRC at the time Ford XR2s, went through brakes which was no surprise considering the use so they tried to save money using aftermarket brakes discs etc and found they didn't last anywhere near as long although supposedly to OE specs so ended up costing more money so they went back to the OE Ford parts. Same with the above comments about parts failing with little to no use, there comes a time when spending a bit more saves money in the long term but the trouble is knowing what parts are good. In the past getting parts from the main dealer would have ensured quality but they don't exist anymore so we have to rely on aftermarket unfortunately. |
| David Billington |
| That the thing David these cheap parts are actually expensive if you actually use them. That's without the time, cost and hassle of the work of removal and refitting and other parts, materials "consumables" that also get used. But by what Guy has put up for TRE boots it's at the stage of not even being able to put them on unused vehicles. Most of us on here would gladly pay more for better quality, I've had more than my fair share of crappy parts considering I don't want to buy "cheap". |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Wow, that is a lot of feedbacks :) Reminds me the grease gun discussion :) I definitely need to buy a "lifetime" one, as for the moment I have the s**t from Halford at 6GBP.... |
| CH Hamon |
This thread was discussed between 06/04/2019 and 28/04/2019
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