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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Electronic fuel pump
Started the Midge this afternoon ahead of the forthcoming superstorm. All was well for 5 minutes. With it ticking over nicely I went to check yet another roof leak in the garage(!) and when returning the engine had cut out. Fuel gauge showed diddly so presumed no petrol. Added half a gallon, turned ignition on and no ticking (pump has always ticked both on start up and more or less continuously when engine running), needless to say engine turned over well(new battery) but would not catch so immediate suspicions are with the pump. Anyone had a similar experience and if so how was it resolved? Are these cheap electronic pumps repairable or is a new one required? This one is 5 years old and looks like the old SU but was considerably cheaper. Replacement will cost £29.50. Thanks, Jeremy |
| Jeremy 3 |
| I'm not sure what pump you have for £30 but my now (if you could get them) £60 Q&H electronic pump has been on 6 years now (£45 then), in fact it was one of the first things I changed on my car as I didn't like the look of the existing pump and I can't put up with unreliable cars I've used electronic pumps for years before no problems I wouldn't spend my money on the traditional SU pumps or the expensive SU electronic versions you say it the pump but you you checked for fuel flow at the engine end, what about the electric connections and wires all clean, secure and protected, have you got any sort of kill switch or immobiliser, is the earth connection to bare metal and secure you could try adding more petrol in case your tank pick up isn't good I think you need to investigate a little more before changing the pump |
| Nigel Atkins |
| ETA: you could make up a test lead to run directly from the car battery (or another battery known to be in good working order) to the pump, connecting both positive and negative connections to the battery a long test lead with various end connections available is always useful to test from the car battery to the very rear of the car for things like the reversing and tail lights and all stuff in between |
| Nigel Atkins |
| The original SU fuel pump is the number one reason that stops our cars down the road. So I bought a Pierburg pump: German, cheap reliable. I always have a spare pump with me. Flip  |
| Flip Brühl |
| Thanks Nigel, Flip; will check the pump with a spare battery as you suggest. It's a PITA as the car is currently under a cover (thanks for your suggestions there too), awaiting the construction of a covered car port and it isn't the easiest place to get underneath - Murphy's Law I think. Flip - would mind letting me know what model Pierburg you've used for fitting to your midget as I'd be interested in doing the same? Many thanks, Jeremy |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Pierburg.pumps are tricky to get in the UK, well so I found when I wanted one for my BV8. I would buy the low pressure version of the Webcon pump. Made by Weber, designed for carburettors and quiet in operation. |
| Mike Howlett |
| Thanks Mike, I had a quick google for Pierburg pumps and they appear to be fairly specialised in the UK, hence asking Flip for the model number. The Webcon you suggest is only £45 and I may consider one for my VW camper too as it has had a square type fuel pump fitted which makes an absolute racket all the time. It drowns out the chugging flat four which takes a bit of doing. Just been out to check the Midget and thought I'd try starting it before crawling underneath and voila -tick,tick,tick, it started and ran fine. Very strange! Jeremy |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Found one for £31.89! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Electric-in-line-low-pressure-carb-fuel-pump-2-5-4-5-psi-WFP502-/360631531573 Jeremy  |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Jeremy, the pump you've put up might be fine but looks a bit bitty to me I like simple stuff this is the equivalent (or original manufacturer?) pump I have on mine, now £62.50 I see, all I can say is it's worked fine on my car and I'd never consider carrying a spare - http://classicparts4cars.co.uk/mg-midget-electronic-fuel-pump---auf214--mfp171e-133-p.asp what car cover did you get in the end, perhaps a Cover Systems or even their 'fold-away garage'? |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Jeremy's pump is sold by SimonBBC. His electronic ignition modules always seem to get a good writeup, so perhaps the pump is less heath robinson than it looks! Not expensive either. |
| GraemeW (Kent!) |
| yeap I concede that might be the case but is it a case of good for the price or good at double the price I've had the Facet cube and cylindrical pumps and they get very good reports but to me the cube at least was a nasty very noisy little bugger even on its rubber exhaust bobbins whereas the cylindrical was fine apart from its size and looks and where it'd fit Accuspark spark plugs and HT leads are cheap to buy, especially when in a kit but I've heard from a couple of different sources that you get what you pay for, i.e. not that well made, robust or long lasting but I don't know the pump Jeremy has put up, for all I know it might be excellent at any price |
| Nigel Atkins |
| It also seems very similar to the Webcon version so it should be ok and is very reasonably priced. http://atspeedracing.co.uk/products/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=51  |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Nigel, I've a cube one on the VW and it is as you say a noisy little blighter, will drown out the engine at times so this looks like a decent alternative and see how it goes. If it's any good then may pop one on the Midget too but I do like to hear the ticking! Jeremy |
| Jeremy 3 |
| It always intrigues me why people carry a spare pump when a simple service of the original SU pump every 20000 miles (if being very cautious) is all that's needed instead. Much easier than changing a pump on the side of the road. Indeed, the SU pump is its own worst enemy. Instead of stopping completely when the points get to end of their service life, they will soldier on quite happily if given a thump, as we all know. But instead of fixing the problem immediately, most owners forget/don't bother to do so. So the pump needs hitting every now and then as a result. And the owner makes muttering noises about how unreliable they are. If new points were installed the hitting ritual would become completely unnecessary for another 10-12 years, which was the typical life span of the pumps when the cars were new - probably more now as annual mileages are less. |
| Paul Walbran |
| yes even with the rubber bobbins fitted the cubes are noisy the pump fitted to mine gives a glunk-glunk-glunk when the ignition is first turned on and then only occasionally a glunk whilst driving, I do get a warning thruddddd if I'm very low on petrol in the tank all being well it wont be the pump at fault on your Midget and you'll get another 5-10+ years out of it I have (the smaller, Mann WK31/2) plastic disposable see-through fuel filter just before the carbs in the engine bay as a filter and to be able to see if fuel is making it that far without the need of tools and getting dirty |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Paul, fiddling about with points is fine if you're the sort that likes to get your hands (at least) dirty but makes more sense to me to install fit 'n' forget items I am with you about the strange spares that some seem to carry because that item once let them down - I was once let down by points on a fuel pump so when I got my present Midget I change the existing pump to a new fit 'n' forget unit so that was the end of my worries or need to carry a spare as far as the fuel pump goes anyway spare wheels/tyres, HT leads, CB points, condensers, whole dissy, fuel pump, starter!, dynamo!/alternator!, ect. - why not a spare engine |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Paul, All too true as I can still remember crawling under a friends Mini and thumping the fuel pump when it played up on a few occasions years ago. I suspected at the time that a bit of routine maintenance would have improved matters. |
| David Billington |
| Ah good old Minis and their fuel pumps. I remember explaining to my girl friend's parents (now she's the Mrs! -we are talking 1965) that the reason we were late home was the failure of the Mini fuel pump in a Stevenage Car park after a visit to the cinema. The pumps on Minis always seemed particualrly exposed to the elements and practice at the time was to try an wrap a plastic bag around them. |
| GraemeW (Kent!) |
| Likewise on the BMC1100's. I was having a play on the gravel in the early '70's when miles from any civilisation and of course after dark the flying stones under the car finally evered the power feed to it. Unable to see properly I manged to touch it onto the terminal and make contact for long enough to fill the bowl and get on my way. A bit. Then repeated it, again and again ... It was a very long drive home! Nigel, the point I was trying to make that if properly serviced (which only takes an hour) then the original pump is virtually fit & forget for many years, during which time the car will have gone through several sets of plugs etc etc. |
| Paul Walbran |
| Beaten by the edit: Having found some electronic pumps troublesome, I'd sooner have the original pump as at least you can check them (in the absence of service records) to see when failure is approaching, and if you are caught out then the proverbial tap will get you home. Just don't forget it is a timely warning to do something about it! |
| Paul Walbran |
| Nigel. I went for at least 10 years before having a problem with my SU pump, and then as Paul describes, another 5 years before renewing the points. That pump was on the car when I bought it(1977), and looked as if it had been on there since the factory put it there. So That's 1966 to 1977, 1977 to 1987, 1987 to 1992. That's a potential 26 years. Taking just the time until I had to start thumping behind the seat from time to time, thats 21 years. Do you know if any of the "electronic" pumps (they're all electronic, but some are solid state) have been on the cars for 21 years? I'd say a new SU points pump is pretty much fit and forget too. As for getting your hands dirty, you have to do that to fit a solid state pump too. It doesn't fit itself. The Midget I bought came with an SU points pump. It too needed to be tapped to start. So I took it out and cleaned the "point". Point because one had come loose and wasn't making contact. But now the remaining point is clean, the pump starts reliably, even after being left for months. Try fixing a solid state pump as easily as that. of course I'll fit a new set of points soon, £12.50 and a little time. Then it'll be good for another circa 20 years. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I cant service a Pierburg and I don't need to. Two other question are: -Self suction. A Pierburg does not do that. So in case of an empty tank... Dont ask me how I know. -What is the right place for a pump? Ideal would be a pump that sucks somewhere where you can see and reach it: The motor compartment. Flip  |
| Flip Brühl |
| Thanks Flip, will do a search in the UK for that model. Jeremy |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Flip: I was always brought up on the idea that a pump is better to push rather than suck if you are dealing with a vapourising fluid. Sucking reduces the pressure and therefore the temperature at which the fluid starts to vapourise ("boil"). In hot summer weather you are more likely to have vapour lock problems if the pump "sucks" fuel from the tank up to the engine. |
| GraemeW (Kent!) |
| SU inlet valves don't handle much above 3.5psi. I have a Facet on my V8 with a pressure regulator. At 4psi it "wept" a bit. Facet is a noisy blighter though!! |
| Allan Reeling |
| Paul, I get your point but being virtually fit 'n' forget isn't the same as being fit 'n' forget, having to do service work on an item that get so mucky isn't for me, I only like driving the cars not excuses to fiddle with them as for having to tap a points pump to keep it going for the time being I've had to do that and a messy business it is too plus you need to find a stick or something long enough to reach it (unless you carry a long handled instrument in the boot just for such use of course) each to their own as you know I'm all for regular servicing but I'm also for reducing the servicing needs to a well working minimum |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I fitted one of these. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FACET-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-MG-MIDGET-MGA-MGB-GT-MGC-METRO-SU-CARBS-UPTO-180BHP-EJ-/400594981342?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AMG%7CModel%3AMidget&hash=item5d455251de Its been ok so far.. Ian |
| I Pickering |
| Nigel Indeed :-) as I say, boring as hell if we all agreed with each other. And just to show how consistent I am, I prefer an electronic module to points in the distributor! Though I do have a reason: every thou lost from the points gap from wear of the heel that bears on the cam is a degree retarded in ignition timing. So although the points continue to provide a good spark the ignition timing starts to drift. |
| Paul Walbran |
| I don't really understand why the SU pump had to be under the car. I know they are not supposed to be good at pulling fuel, but on the Morris Minor it is under the bonnet and works well there, so why not on the Spridget? |
| Mike Howlett |
| I don't really understand why the SU pump had to be under the car. I know they are not supposed to be good at pulling fuel, but on the Morris Minor it is under the bonnet and works well there, so why not on the Spridget? |
| Mike Howlett |
| Different output pressure characteristics. The "pusher" pumps had a stronger spring to give more pressure at the pump outlet to allow for the height up to the carbs. Put one of these pumps up on the bulkhead and it's likely the needle valve will get overwhelmed. I've never bothered researching the exact reason the pumps were moved from the engine bay, but in my reasoning it is probably this: As noted above by Graeme, there is a limitation on sucking ability to draw fuel into the inlet. The higher the pump is above the tank, the more marked it becomes. If it is desired to increase pump capacity - as was needed with higher output engines - this becomes a real limitation. The solution was to mount the pump by the tank, preferably at the same level - then the pump didn't have to lift the fuel at all so much more could be drawn into it. Then of course a stronger spring was needed to push the fuel on its way. Of course this doesn't explain why the pump is under the car - just why it is near the tank. I suspect the answer was simply because it was easy. And designers aren't the ones who have to crawl under cars to fix them! Having said that, I do confess to botching the K MIdget installation by setting it up so the engine has to be removed to renew the speedo cable ... |
| Paul Walbran |
| Easy to fit the pump by the tank and probably cheaper for BMC/BL as well. Probably as much thought was given to the ease of access as was put into rustproofing the cars... Paul is there a way of making your speedo electronic or digital; may be easer than removing the engine to change the cable? |
| Jeremy 3 |
| Nigel, "as for having to tap a points pump to keep it going for the time being I've had to do that and a messy business it is too" The intelligent way is to tilt the driver's seat fowards and thump the heelboard. If you have soft hands you keep a hammer under the seat for this purpose. |
| David Smith |
| David, I felt like kicking a panel in at the time sorry I didn't meet your intelligent test - however I didn't say, and it wasn't, on a Spridget - (not that I would have thought of that) the pump required several direct hits to it to get it going luckily I couldn't a good swing at it otherwise it might have got dented - the next day I had to take a day's holiday and other losses because the car wouldn't start in time I do like the 'intelligent' idea of carrying a hammer to keep the pump going though ;) |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hi A real thread revival this time! I am looking for tips on SU electric fuel pump rebuild please. (Electronic suggestions are in the old thread, but do they run OK on positive earth?) Car is a 948c MKII Sprite positive earth that a previous owner has ditched the mechanical fuel pump and installed an SU electric fuel pump (AUF 214) in the engine bay by the washer bottle at the front. The fuel pump did work 2 years ago so I am going to put new points in and the rest of a rebuild kit. But on a quick clean up of the existing points - while waiting for the rebuild kit to arrive - it did not go again (maybe too low a voltage?) and now I notice that the pedestal (Bakelite bit the points attached too) has a big crack from the points mounting screw. Anyone know where to get a replacement SU fuel pump pedestal from (and I have spent enough with Burlen this week, and they do not list it on their website)? Tips on rebuilding the rest of the pump, including gapping the points as well as what burns out? (could I have fried it somehow? If so, what/how to replace) Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Mike. Go here. http://homepages.donobi.net/sufuelpumps/Fuel_Pumps/sufuelpumparticles.html |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Mike I have a few pumps in various states of disrepair, so I could probably find a pedestal for you. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| and now I notice that the pedestal (Bakelite bit the points attached too) has a big crack from the points mounting screw. Yeah thats a problem, grounding will follow that crack just like in the dissy I cant offer much about the wiring BUT ... you said the pump is inside the engine bay ??? Im not sure that will work very well...these pumps are ((( PUSHERS ))), Not ((( SUCKERS )))... if its the correct pump for the midget, they have to be low and close to the tank to work effectivly. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Hi Lawrence, Dave and Prop Thanks for the really useful info. Lawrence - that's a great web-source on SU fuel pumps, informative and even a bit witty! And confirms the issue of the cracked pedestal. As well as suggesting that if someone wants to carry a spare fuel pump, why not wire and pipe an additional solid state one in. Dave - your offer of a good used pedestal would be great. How do we arrange this? Somehow exchange e-mail addresses offline and use PayPal? Prop - thanks for also confirming that the cracked pedestal is a problem. Yes, I had wondered why the pump was placed in the engine bay, and do plan to relocate it next to the tank as would be for standard fitment for later cars. Great forum this, great people! Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| No one seems to have mentioned a Huco pump. Similar to the original in appearance but solid state. Two versions available for either mounting under the bonnet or at the rear. Have one on my Midget and my TR4, far better than the facet / goldflo / cube types tried previously http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/HUCO.html |
| S G Macfarlane |
| Mike mail me at daveo138 at yahoo co uk |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| SG... Im not aware of that pump, thanks for the heads up Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I rather like the SU pumps but I did maintain mine (on my Minor) quite religiously with oiling and flatting the points. In contrast, the maintenance-free cube pump on my Subaru did 165,000 miles and stopped working when it rusted away. So I now have a cube to replace the mechanical pump on my 1500 midget. I also use a FilterKing regulator. I'll know if it all works when the car is ready for the road, but my expectation is that regulating the pressure down will allow the highest pressure possible that doesn't overwhelm the needle valves in the float chambers - that's the idea anyway. |
| Nick Nakorn |
| I have a Facet silver top mounted low down on the NS inner wing at the front of the car. I mounted it here as the car had a mechanical pump originally and I did not want the hassle of cutting fuel pipes and running extra wiring etc. All the guidance says its in the wrong place etc etc but its been there for over 10 years and never let me down. It does not have a pressure regulator but does not overwhelm the carbs (standard HS2). |
| Bob Beaumont |
| Amen Nick, You have made the MG Gods proud Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Thanks to Dave O for sending me a pedestal (part of SU fuel pump) and the advice of everyone on here, I now have a working SU fuel pump. It was odd satisfying refurbishing the SU fuel pump at the same time with new points, diaphragm, valves and seals (in a rebuild kit from Burlen Fuel Systems). Pity the rebuild kit is so pricey as will probably put people off from fixing them. Once again It is interesting to note how clever the simple engineering on these cars is; how these pumps stop and start when needed as well as can be repaired, refurbished and maintained. When searching for pedestal parts I noted that Leacey Classics have a useful SU kit of parts (AUB 9003) consisting of the pedestal and associated bolts, screws and spring washers, plus the pin for the points all in original SU packaging - cheaper than buying the bits separately as well as being OEM spec: http://www.leacyclassics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=AUB+9003&cat= Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| AUB 9003 link: http://www.leacyclassics.com/aub9003.html |
| M Wood |
| Yup, satisfying indeed Mike. Interesting too, with respect to George Bernard Shaw, as remarked over in General. I can only assume that you are a "reasonable" man, as you opted for the status quo, as opposed to "progress", with an electronic pump. Of course, changing to an electronic pump might be considered progress by some, simply because it is a later developement. However, you can't fix an electronic pump by the side of the road, in the simple way that you can an electro mechanical pump. Consider this. If the electro mechanical (points version) fails, 99% of the time, banging it, or on the area behind the driver's seat, will get you home, and will even allow you thousands more miles if you can't be bothered. Personal experience too. If the electronic pump breaks down and leaves you stranded, and waiting for the breakdown service, have you progressed at all? Nick I don't agree that the original points SU pump needs any maintenance. -- Assuming a decent one is fitted, from personal experience, I know they are good for at least 100K miles without any attention at all. |
| Lawrence Slater |
This thread was discussed between 26/10/2013 and 15/05/2015
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