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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Engine Oil
Hi folks, wishing you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I can't find Castrol GTX 20W50 anywhere. am I missing something obvious? Can anybody point me at a good supplier? MC&HNY Nigel |
N Broomfield |
According to Castrol's website they no longer make GTX 20/50. They make 5/30, 5/40 and 15/40. None are recommended for the MGB or midget. Castrol direct you to their classic oil XL20W/50 as being their recommendation for those engines. |
Mike Howlett |
It's been XL 20w/50 all the time I've had my Midget, 14 years but then I never looked for GTX.
It's also been part of the Castrol Classic Oils, distributed by MGOC via their Promapac LLP for a good number of years (note the address). - https://www.classicoils.co.uk/engine As alternatives you have the classic oils from Halfords and Wilco both were Comma oils last I looked (and IIRC green) and in tin tins so must be good. Then of course if you wanted to you could buy better and more modern blends of oil bearing in mind the three above will be more modern mixes anyway, plus the (modern) Duckhams Q brand if it's still over here. Why not support a more local blender, I favour Millers. This is their basic classic 20w50 with ZDDPs too. - https://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/classic-pistoneeze-20w50-4/ |
Nigel Atkins |
Nigel
Good wishes to you too. I share your frustration about no longer being able to buy Castrol GTX 20w/50, something that went into various old cars of mine in the 1980s and early 1990s (mostly Minis). As well as Castrol LM multipurpose grease which is also long gone (but you can get a Comma equivalent). Morris Oils in Shrewsbury do a 20w/50 mineral oil: https://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/golden-film-sae-20w-50-classic-motor-oil.html Opie Oils sell a big range of 20w/50 mineral oil including ones I had not realised were available such as Gulf and Silkolene as well as Millers, Comma etc: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-661-20w50-engine-oil.aspx If you are lucky enough to have an independent motor factors ask them and buy from them. If not, try online from Opie Oils, Broughton Lubricants or Morris Lubricants, see: https://www.broughtonlubricants.co.uk/castrol-classic-xl-20w-50 Cheers Mike |
M Wood |
I've been using this for a few years. Price has gone up recently, but then it seems the price of oil has generally. It's got a high ZDDP content which is apparently good for flat tappet engines. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272047824891?hash=item3f57505ffb:g:0cIAAOSwLEdgCVwr#:~:text=20w/50%20Classic%2020w50%20Vintage%20Engine%20Oil%2025%20Litre%2025L%20API%20SF/CD%2C%20MIL%202104B |
Peter Allen |
ZDDPs aren't the only fruit. API SF, bit modern, introduced in 1980 after the last Midget really, modern oil, will it really be safe in a 1970s engine. |
Nigel Atkins |
Nigel A - "in tins so it must be good" - my sentiments also.
Mike - likewise GTX 20w50 went in everything (I've still got a paintbrush in my tin of LM grease) in fact maybe I'm looking too far away and I should check my dad's garage, I'll bet there's a tin GTX of it in there, probably 30+ years old. I see Halfords sells Millers. Their pistoneez would be the one but the Halfords classic is actually the right grade (API SE as opposed to API SJ for the Millers). I've never bothered about the grade before, gave more thought to the viscosity. Is it that important? I've obviously not researched enough before asking because there's been other brands mentioned that I've never heard of (Morris, Opie) And, nobody has mentioned Castrol R. Or is that just a 2 stroke thing? is there a 4 stroke equivalent of the smell of R. Cheers MC&HNY Nigel |
N Broomfield |
Nigel, Opie are a vendor and stock lots of products from many companies for all sorts of lubrication requirements, I've used them a few times and always had good service. |
David Billington |
In my BV8 I use Valvoline VR1 Racing 20w/50. This seems a very good oil for old flat tappet angines and has kept my engine sweet for many years now. Opie Oils that David mentioned stock it - you can read about it here https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73741-valvoline-vr1-racing-20w-50-refined-mineral-engine-oil.aspx?VariantID=96506 It's also to be found on ebay. I would use Millers too as they have an excellent reputation. I have a can of Pistoneeze in the garage for my Dolomite 1850. |
Mike Howlett |
Aha! I've just read on the API website that SE grade is obsolete and the SJ grade is backwards compatible (as the grades were/are as they were introduced, newer grades being suitable for older engines but older grades not being suitable for newer engines). So that makes Millers Pistoneez the favourite, I have a good access to Halford and NigelA and MikeH rate it. Cheers folks NigelB |
N Broomfield |
Another vote for Valvoline VR1, I�ve been using it for years in my modified Sprite and now also in my standard Midget. It seems to give more consistent oil pressure between cold and hot and I�ve had it running hard at over 130 degrees c without any apparent damage to the engine. Obviously in normal use that isn�t much of a consideration but to me it proves it�s a decent oil in all situations.
Millers oils also have a good reputation and I can�t imagine there�s anything wrong with the Castrol Classic range. I wouldn�t regard tins or plastic containers as being any indicator of quality! You can use Castrol R in your Midget, I�ve known a couple of people running it in their competition cars. I think there are some disadvantages though but I�m no expert. It you want the lovely smell then just put a couple of cap fulls in your petrol tank - I have some for that reason to put in my old bikes and even the lawnmower! |
John Payne |
I second what John said about Valvoline sustaining good oil pressure even when extremely hot. My BV8 (4 litre, fuel injected) got stuck in traffic in southern France when the outside shade temp was about 37C. The yellow line in my photo shows where the temp gauge ended up despite twin fans whirring away - about 250F or over 120C. These Rover engines aren't known for high oil pressure, and mine normally runs between 35 and 40 psi. It didn't alter at all despite the heat, and what's more the engine ticked over sweetly - the beauty of EFI. Mind you, Mrs H and I were cooked! |
Mike Howlett |
NigelB,
I almost put a post about the API and a link, I'm glad I didn't as you found out for yourself. If you decide to buy from Halfords try ordering through their website even if click 'n' collect as you might then later get a �5 voucher to spend there again. I don't shop at Halford very much at all but I've had I think three or four �5 vouchers, the first I didn't read properly and just deleted the email, The next I read properly and it was as good as �5 in my wallet and so was the next, no catches. It might be that I used the Halfords site among others to look up car related items or parts or just to get car specifications from neighbours reg plates. Valvoline is an American company, Millers is British. VR1 is a 'Racing Motor Oil' (API SL), their Data Sheet has - "Specially designed for racing applications, not recommended for prolonged periods of time" (see attached PDF). The Millers Classic Sport 20w50 has no such restrictions mentioned in fact the opposite - "yet suitable for all discerning owners who want the best possible oil for their classic engine. Meets API SJ." - And on special offer at Halfords on-line with �10 off so at �29 - so a lower price and better oil than VR1 - https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/classic-car-oil/millers-oils-classic-sport-20w50-engine-oil---5l-418190.html |
Nigel Atkins |
Not sure which data sheet you found Nigel but this one doesn�t mention anything about being not suitable for non racing situations. Mine tends to stay in the car a long time, I�m not one of these oil change every event types - nearer to every couple of years!!
Oil discussions are fairly pointless once you get down to decent brands, as long as you use the correct grade (normally 20/50 for the Spridget) and one of the decent brands you can�t go far wrong. The only time I�ve ever had anything go wrong that I attributed to poor oil was when I used cheap oil in my Sprite. It was the supermarket type of 20/50 they used to sell and I stupidly thought that as long as I changed it regularly it would be ok. It wasn�t, I let it get too hot once and the cam and follower surfaces broke down. http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/files/transfer/technical/doc/valvoline_vr1_spec_sheet.pdf |
John Payne |
Nigel, yes the Valvoline is called "Racing", but on the info sheet John linked, it clearly states "Suitable for normal day to day driving in the city and on the highway." I have used it for over 10 years in my V8 and inside the rocker covers it is as clean as a whistle (Rover V8s tend to sludge up here) and the oil pressure is the same as it was 35,000 miles ago.
However, Millers is also a good product and is British, but one tends to stick with what one knows. My V8 engine was built by Real Steel in London and they recommended the VR1, so I have stuck with it. |
Mike Howlett |
I love a good oil chat
Valvoline is a really good race oil-BUT be aware ,there are race oils and race oils Mike- You're on a winner with the VRI, good oil, but as the spec sheet points out--don't leave it in there for ever it's not intended to be in there for long service intervals The VR1 is recommended for race/road engines and is highly detergent as most race oils are, it also has additives to help prevent oxidization from byproducts of combustion but not as strong here as longlife engine oils so it has to be changed more regularly to prevent acids eating away at your bearings etc. We were fully sponsored by Valvoline and ran Valvoline course50 race oil exclusively back when, but drained it after every race meeting -The full on race oil is designed for racing only, heavy load protection without all the not needed road going additives- I ran some in my V8 roadcar for a while and within around 5000Klm it glazed the bores up--not designed for light load longer running So just be carefull, I believe the new name for course 50 Valvoline is Formula 50---a full on race oil, not for the road,--- but the VR1 is ok for sporty road/competition use but change it super regularly willy |
William Revit |
(Thanks Willy.)
John, I went to the horse's mouth, Valvoline's site for the PDF I put up, if you note it's - "Version: 025/13b" dated - "� Trademark of Valvoline, registered in various countries � 2021" and has "Replaces � 025/13a". Merlin Motorsport links to - "Version: 025/10c" dated - "� Trademark of Valvoline, registered in various countries � 2016" (see PDF attached). Mike, I remember Real Steel (assuming it's the same company) when they were out Bedford way, bear in Santa Pod drag strip is close to Bedford and Northampton. Most of the old fellas that swear by VR1 because their engine builder (Jaggggg engines particularly) told them and often these cars don't do hundreds of miles annually let alone thousands, perhaps they put in hibernation oils for the 6 to 11 months of the year. ("who's for Goodwood, I'm taking the Jag-u-ar"). I used to bang in Mobil 1 15w-50 Motorsport in my RV8 engines and those old folk that didn't hardly run their cars told me it'd ruin my engines, rot my teeth and steal my looks. I done tens of thousands of miles on those engines and they were fine in my ownership and subsequent ownerships AFAIK, I have all my own teeth including still a 'baby' tooth and my looks, and modesty, remain intact. |
Nigel Atkins |
Nigel, I think you need to get out more! Good info from Willy as usual. I think it was Real Steel that also recommended VR1 when I built my 289 Ford - but then I also got recommendations from lots of other A Series users. So it looks like it could be a good move to go for Millers or similar for my standard Midget next oil change. |
John Payne |
Far out, I must be getting old, or was it the early Christmas celebrations, I forgot to say ,or was it i forgot to remember to say--i forget now---lol Castrol GTX is readily available here----
Personally I'm running 0-40 Edge in nearly everything I fiddle with now , it seems well suited to most semi modern high performance cars Except the golf, IT is supposed to run 5-30 and if i poke 0-40 in it the turbo gets left behind and performance and fuel economy drop right off, -Bit weird in itself really as my son's MX5 turbo loves the 0-40 without any turbo lag at all---so i'm running the golf on 0-20 Edge which really sharpens him up and you can hear the turbo spool up instantly, and it holds it's performance right through till the end of the 15000 Klm service interval where with the recomended 5-30 it tends to get a bit sluggish in the last 1/3 of that period and you can't hear the turbo working much at all then willy |
William Revit |
Never mind that you can't get gtx anymore. Get Duckhams q 20/50 instead. https://www.duckhams.com/classic-car/viscosity/20w-50/ I bought a 20 ltrs tub. Looks just like the green stuff of old. |
anamnesis |
Are there really any bad oils now? I admit I am a bit of an oil heretic and like to stretch my intervals out but in my defence my VW has 300K+ miles on it with changes ever 20K when people told me switching to the "long life" service interval would kill the camshaft, and another of my occasionally used cars has had the same sumpful of synthetic for 15 years - filter has been changed but oil looks fine and car still works...
So buying the one in the nicest tin probably makes as much sense as anything :) |
AdrianR |
John, only took a few seconds to open your link, the PDF I put up and look at the publishing dates. We used to be in the local Jag Enthusiast club as at the time a mate had a newish XJ and the club meet at a pub with good ale, raised money for charities and the Chairman wasn't your usual Jag owner and believed in fun. Whenever I was asked which Jag I owned my reply was always the same, I don't I'm not old enough. |
Nigel Atkins |
Anam, this has been coved before and in this thread but to remind you Comma make it so you might get it cheaper under the Comma brand - and no one ever need know. 😁 |
Nigel Atkins |
Adrian,
I don't dislike your idea, don't mess around with middle options. I knew a chap with an old Escort Orion diesel IIRC with around 200k on it and he used it and even for trailering cars. He said he'd never touched the engine or serviced it whilst he owned it and was waiting for it to breakdown to get shot of it but it refused, seemed to like punishment. I doubt if a more modern VW with all of its (lying cheating) computers would allow any deviations from its programs and would possibly punish you by not only refusing to do more than limp around but it'd probably disconnect your home power supply.🤣 |
Nigel Atkins |
My brother had a Honda C50 that he bought for �5. Kind of a field bike. He used to use used engine oil in it drained from his dad's or elder brother's (that's me) cars. As an aside, you could get amazing wheelies on that bike by winding the revs right up and stamping it into gear. The beauty of an automatic clutch. Said a lot for Soichoro's design that it withstood this sort of abuse.
There's probably a correlation between oil change intervals and the quality of the oil. I change my oil & filter every year or well within the recommended oil change interval, and a long time before the oil gets black. If I used a posher oil I'd stretch this out. I remember Honest John in the Telegraph used to reckon that the oil change intervals recommended by the manufacturer for the new cars of the day were way too long. |
Peter Allen |
Mike
Been doing a little search around and it would appear there are a couple of versions of VR1 in different coloured containers One is a racing oil the other is a racing oil-----? But the version in the ""grey coloured container is the one suitable for road use and up to 3000mile interval"" where the other, don't know what colour will definately need changing very regularly--like 500miles This would also be true for the Fornula50 oil I can remember using the course race oil that it went gluggy real fast if you left it in more than a couple of race meetings , it's like a magnet for everything that goes in there and collects all the fumes etc specially if you're running methanol and so we got into the habit of draining it after every meeting-- Always used a large clear glass bowl to drain into and let it drain overnight, it's a good habit to get into as you get an early indication if something is starting to be naughty-- It'll be in the bottom of the bowl. Cheers willy Some reading for you-- https://myengineneeds.com/valvoline-vr1-racing-oil/ |
William Revit |
After reading all these comments I think I will abandon the Valvoline VR1. Handily I've used up all my current supply anyway. |
Mike Howlett |
You can get information on 20/50 oils from the classic oils website including the zddp parts per million (ppm) What we dont know is how much is enough.
https://www.classic-oils.net/Oils-by-Application-and-Type/Four-Stroke-Engine-Oils/Classic-20W50-Multigrades-Mineral-base We can see that Duckhams is high in ZDDP. I've been using the Morris's Golden film because I've found a very cheap source in the West Midlands. I've been supplementing it with STP which is also reputed to be high in ZDDP. https://www.tfmsuperstore.co.uk/stores/ |
Paul Hollingworth |
Leaving aside Willy's special racing engines, has anyone actually experienced failure or significant wear due to wrong oil?
I spun a big end once on my MGB, but that was after sustained high rpm round Castle Combe circuit. I hadn't owned it long so oil was whatever it came with but after driving it home (gently) and disassembling it I discovered the PO had lost the bottom washer from the old style canister element so not much filtration had been happening. Crank went from std to -60 in one grind but with that and new shells it lived on. |
AdrianR |
Mike, it'd be good if you used a British instead of American oil - but - the oil you are using is different to the one Willy was referring to. The one you use is just the ordinary / vanilla / plain old /conventional oil, mineral oil so if you like it stick with it. Putting American oil in your British car, at least it has an American engine - but in an A-Series. :shakeshead: |
Nigel Atkins |
Paul,
as I put earlier and you know ZDDP isn't the only fruit, or protectant. As for how much, you may well know better than I but in the 60s it might have been 600-900 parts per million - was that enough, did engine fall apart earlier with such amounts? Comma's Duckhams Q IRC is 1500 parts per million of the ZDDPs, is that enough or too much and would less ZDDP but different and better package of protectants be better. Bit like if you eat meat is it better to eat more meat instead of varying to include other foods. That Castrol XL only has 800, frightening, Millers (straight) Pistoneeze is 1130 (at least it's over a thousand!), 😁 that Morris is only 700! no wonder you have to supplement it. 😁 Being serious that Morris oil is for old car and rated at 700 ZDDPs so doesn't that suggest that maybe the much higher numbers of ZDDP are aimed at the current fashion for a high ZDDP number. This gives a market which can be catered for reducing competition and increasing profit potential. Like bring back the Duckhams Q brand even though it's a different oil from the previous times it was sold. |
Nigel Atkins |
Adrian, earlier I pointed out that I�d ruined my cam and followers using cheap oil. Although it was a slightly modified engine it was motorway use that overheated the oil.
I think I�ll be sticking with VR1 in my race car, though I might ask Peter Mays what they recommend when I pick up my new engine parts. My last engine died a death of a broken crankshaft at Donington this summer and that was while the oil temp was as high as I�ve ever seen it - about 130 degrees. But it wasn�t that that damaged it, 15 years of high revs and a standard, unbalanced flywheel is more likely. On stripping the engine, apart from some bearings that had picked up broken crank debris, the engine was in amazing condition considering the abuse it had been given. The shells were pretty much perfect, as were the pistons/rings/bores. Amazing considering they were standard pistons and bottom end. So I�ve no real reason to use anything other than the oil I�ve been using for 15 years. One oil recommendation I�ve had recently is for �Driven� oils but unfortunately I think they are also American! |
John Payne |
NigelA mentioned earlier about local blenders.
I was wondering about the racers and their possible sponsorship from local blenders. I know of Chrystal Petroleum in Fife, I don't know of their blends or sponsorship of any racers. I mention this because it really goes with what AdrianR asked, "Are there really any bad oils now?", and "Leaving aside Willy's special racing engines, has anyone actually experienced failure or significant wear due to wrong oil? ". What with some branded oils actually being made by another bigger company maybe it is better to support your local brewery. I guess seeing as there are only a handful oil refineries in this country they make a blend to a requested recipe for a vendor, be it a large or small vendor. |
N Broomfield |
I've heard it say that even the worst of modern spec oils are better than the good oils of old. It's 70 years since the introduction of the A series engine. In the day, and also to this day, they've been raced, rallied and abused eg what oil was used in the Monte Carlo Minis? Or John Sprinzel's Spridgets? Or my mate Eddie's Austin A40 that in his few years ownership never, as far as I know, had an oil change?
Where I'd draw the line is recycled oils. I strongly suspect that Wilko's 'Everyday' 20W50 for high mileage engine's fell into this category. I remember seeing disturbing black particles in the bottom of the can, which was the death knell for this product as far as I was concerned. As said earlier, whatever oil one uses I'm an advocate of regular oil changes. I got into Rye Oil just because I'd driven past the refinery on holiday one year. Spec sounded OK, but I'm no oil expert. You can buy this more affordably in bulk, which suits me because my three vehicles use 20W50, plus, when I started using it my MGB was getting through the stuff in some style. Since then I've inserted a more abstemious engine, but still use the oil. |
Peter Allen |
Mike
I'm not saying abandon the VR1 Valvoline is an excellent oil Just make sure you have the roadgoing version same with any brand really Castrol uses the word course as well in their race oils and also road oils-- John mentioned Driven oil I use Driven breakin oil A lot of the sprintcar racers here use their race oil--They also do road oils but there again you have to be carefull selecting as they have Hotrod oil as well as road oil and the hotrod oil will eat cat convertors----- It's just a ---read the details thing willy |
William Revit |
Interesting John, I've not noticed much camshaft wear on any of the Midget engines I've tinkered with. Rocker shafts of unknown history with steps worn in and polished patches on sides of followers, but not cams. Out of sight out of mind perhaps. |
AdrianR |
All this talk of oil got me thinking I needed to change the oil on my motorbike, I'd bought the oil months ago but not got round to it. Anyway I had to chuckle when I read the guff on the back. I'm really looking forward to 'twisting the throttle' on what should feel like a different bike according to what Castrol say! |
John Payne |
John, Couldn't help looking your oil up on the castrol site---sounds good Might try some in the golf just because, and see what happens https://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/home/products/motorcycles-and-scooters/engine-oils.html Be carefull out there , we don't want you sitting on the road wondering what the hell happened when you gave it some stick lol willy |
William Revit |
In such a numb engine as an A series, I don't think it matters too much what make you use. I seem to recall using Castol 20/50 and Duckhams 20/50, but any similar will suffice. The most important thing is to change the oil and filter as per the manual. |
Oggers |
This thread was discussed between 09/12/2021 and 17/12/2021
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