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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Ford 5 Speed Problems.

I am unhappy with my Ford 5 Spped in the Sprite. It is not as quiet as I would like and second is difficult to engage when cold. The noise is a whirring and is speed dependent. I dismantled the box so I could shorten the shift and all the bearings and rings were OK so I simply reassembled it with the odd new part. I had previousl rebuilt a Suzuki box and had used RTV sealant between case members and cannot remember if I used this with the Ford one, perhaps in place of gaskets. I wonder if the lack of gaskets has removed any endfloat in the bearings and are causing them to be noisy? In any event I am taking the Ford box out and taking it to a local, long established gearbox repairer who has been dealing with Type 9s for 50 years. I want the car to be a joy to drive during the forthcomming summer. Unfortunately I didn't follow my own advice that if something is difficult to get to take no chances with the parts you are putting back.

Jan T
J Targosz

2nd has always been a little bit difficult on my T9. But never enough to persuade me to do anything about it.

Is the whirring in all gears? Speed dependant? Worse under power or on over run? I always believe one can get a lot of helpful diagnosis before the dismantling parts. It may not pin point the fault, but could give useful clues for you later, or to pass on to your gearbox specialist.
GuyW

Hi Guy,

Thanks for the reply. The noise is most prominent when cruising along with the enging buzzing away. It is speed dependant. I did dismantle the box whilst shortening the gear lever position and to drill/tap a drain plug. I replaced the layshaft needles with longer ones since I lost a couple of the original ones! I have now dismantled all the bits surrounding the engine and await the arrival of a friend with a hoist to lift the engine and box out. No messing about or cost cutting. The box is off to an excellent reconditioner with instructions to return it to me with crisp changes and silence. There is a very sharp bend, on a hill, almost outside our house, called the Devil's Elbow. It needs to be taken in second and difficulty in selecting this can be dangerous, especially when some one is tail-gating and desperate to show how much more powerfull their modern car is.

Jan
J Targosz

Type 9 shouldnt be noisy, non of my 3 gearboxes did.
The quick shift gearstick did rattle on my first box.

2nd gear never gave me a problem shifting it...
Can it be the shorten of the gearbox causing it?
welding back the casing did cause some problems on my mates 5speed in his frog.
Apperently it was welded back a wee bit out of line.
A de Best

Is it equally as noisy in 4th gear as it is in 3-5
William Revit

It is noisy in all gears and is most prominent when buzzing along with no strain on the engine or running gear. I don't think shortening the change has affected anything, I could push/rotate the single rail smoothy. I hope though the casing itself has ot distorted and the rear spline is no longer concentric with the casing!!!! Some times it works OK so I think it is an internal problem.

I am now ready to lift the engine and box out of the car tomorrow when a friend arrives with a hoist. The job is easier with a Type 9 conversion since you can remove the chassis strengthening plate and the whole unit can be tilted at a very steep angle to miss the front cross member.


Jan T
J Targosz

Jan, you say, . "It is speed dependant".

Road speed or engine speed?

The layshaft is engine speed dependant, as is the front main bearing. The output shaft is road speed dependant, as is the rear main bearing. That might point to which is noisy.

Also, "I replaced the layshaft needles with longer ones since I lost a couple of the original ones!"

Did you remove one(two?) of the washers then to accomodate the extra length?

The longer needles are actually for the 4 speed. The T9 was designed for shorter needles. I rebuilt mine with the original short needles, because I have written text on my laptop, that says, counterintuitively, longer needles will increase wear on the layshaft. Not in uk at the moment, so I can't post that. It either came from the official ford t9 rebuild manual, or from bgh; both pucker knowledge, hence I trusted the advice.

1st to 2nd gear is a known notchy/slow change design fault. The right oil is supposed to fix it. Bgh modify the gear cluster to fix it.


anamnesis

When I said 2nd was "a little difficult" on mine, I meant no more than slightly notchy. It improves as it warms up and generally I only notice it if I think too much about changing! Probably exactly the sort of situation when changing down for a known awkward/ known tight hairpin on a steep road. But it never baulks to the point that it doesn't select.

I did refurbish my gearbox with new bearings but don't recall it they were long or short needles in the layshaft. I also shortened the rear extension as a DIY but got the alignment right by assembling the loose parts onto the selector shaft to set the alignment up before it was welded.
GuyW

If it is road speed related, as opposed to engine speed and equally noisy in 4th gear then it does sound like it could be the mainshaft bearing in the sandwich plate. Must be pretty bad though if you can hear it in 4th as well.
Are you sure the box is clearing the bodywork everywhere and that the gearbox mounting isn't fouling anything-
I hate to bring up this subject, but, as far as the 2nd gear baulking goes---what oil are you using-
And-
If your 2nd gear syncro is in good condition, get your gearbox repair fella to lap the synchro ring to it's taper with some fine valve grinding paste to take the shine off the tapered cone, it works a treat on cranky syncro's--It'll need a "THOROUGH" wash/cleanup after doing that but it's worth the trouble.
willy
William Revit

My memory may be playing tricks, but wasn't T9 2nd gear selection discussed 'fairly' recently here?

I have an image of me posting a picture of the modification made by bgh to the gear hub, and also seem to remember Willy explaining the synchro de-shine too.

Then again, T9's get mentioned so often, it all blurs into one long thread; a bit like fwb's and oil sucking. 🤣
anamnesis

I'm not going bonkers. I replied to your thread Jan.

"Driving With a 5 Speed Conversion"

13th October 2023, just after your first run with the conversion.

My reply then was.

"2nd gear being stiff when cold, is a known feature. Not caused by a short lever, but definitely exacerbated by it.

It's also known for being 'notchy' even when warm, on fast changes.

Google notchy type 9 and 2nd gear change. It's been all over the internet for many years. Ford design fault.

There are 2 problems. One is oil( what brand/type are you using?), and the other is the spring/slider pressure in the synchro hub.

BGH geartech modify the hub set to overcome the problem. But at a cost of course. I was shown how they alter/reduce the sharpness of the chamfer in the hub.

I find, let the engine idle for a couple of min's when starting from cold, and the problem is greatly reduced, and even elliminated."

If you aren't financially or otherwise commited to your gearbox rebuilder, notwithstanding his 50 years experience, you should consider having BGH geartech rebuild it for you.

I say this because just building it back to how it left the factory, doesn't improve or address the Ford design faults. Unless your g/box builder modifies it, you'll as likely as not still have a notchy 1st to 2nd change, and whilst most people are happy with that (as said, when warm it's not that bad at all), you sound as if you will be frustrated by it.

How much will your chap charge? And does he really have the knowledge BGH have? BGH have gears and stuff made to their own spec's. They improve oil paths etc.

I'd at least have a chat to Bgh and discuss the 2nd gear change issue before commiting more money.

BGH Geartech Ltd
Red Roofs
New Road
Cranbrook
Kent
TN17 3LE
Tel: 01580 714114
http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/html/5_speed.html






anamnesis

Useful info on BGH Anam. If it weren't for my tight wallet I would get them sort my gearbox. That and my age which is impacting such decisions!

I had forgotten, but I also shortened the detent spring in the box casing. Top front n/side corner of the box. Very simple modification made for a very light change,even with my very short stubby gear lever.
GuyW

Another vote for BGH. They rebuilt mine 16 years ago and fitted a long 1st gear, it’s been spot on ever since and has only had frequent oil changes in that time. They didn’t mention doing mods to 2nd gear but it always goes in fine, even when stone cold.

I seem to remember when I first fitted the T9 that it was a bit difficult to get in 2nd but I think I was recommended a certain gear oil that made it a lot better. Pretty sure it was Comma 75-90 GL4, that’s what I use now anyway.
John Payne

This thread was discussed between 15/01/2024 and 18/01/2024

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