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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Ford 5 T9 speed oil quantity / level

Good evening gentlemen
In the Haynes Sierra manual, they mention a handfull of different type 9 gearboxes, oli quantity between 1,7 and 2,1 litres.
When filling oil in today, allready at a quantity of not even 1,5 liter, the oil began running out of the filling hole. I let it for an hour or so and filled after, but same story.
How much oil do you 5 - speed guys fill in?
The car is in level.

Jan Kruber

Jan,
often the best use for a Haynes is under a short table leg.

Info I have is 1.25 litres or 1.9 litres from I assume (always dangerous) dry fill.

Boxes can have a higher or lower filler/level hole, see photo below, also different levels to filler/level hole -
. May '84 to April '85
20mm-25mm below lower edge of filler/level hole

. May '85 on
0-5mm below lower edge of filler/level hole

Loads of info in Archives.

Did you remember to fill with Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF as it works better in cold climates than the often recommended Comma SX(?) 75-90 (semi-synthetic).-
https://www.opieoils.co.uk//p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-car-gearbox-oil.aspx



Nigel Atkins

Jan, just as a confirmation of Nigel's advice, l think the answer is also given in one of those documents l sent you a while ago. The magazine article one.
GuyW

Guy,
if you mean the magazine article "Taking the fifth" (that recommends Ford and Comma oils) then unless I missed it (quite possible) the quantities aren't in there.

I got the quantities from a Haynes extract that you might have sent me.
Nigel Atkins

Jan,
I've lost some of my type 9 info but if you want to email me I'll send you what I have, some will probably be a duplicate of what Guy sent you as he probably sent some of the same to me.

My email -
first and last name at bt internet dot com - all lower case, no spaces or dots in my full name.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, Guy,
My gearbox supplier, First Motion, recommended a Comma product not awailable her in Denmark. As an alternative he then recommended this,
https://capri24.pl/produkt/castrol-syntrans-transaxle-75w90-1l/
....underlining it s important it is an GL4 75/90 oil.
Regarding the quantity, I can't do better that topping it up in the filling hole, right?
Jan


Jan Kruber

Nigel, Guy
I have the article "Taking the Fifth". The quantity of oil is not discussed there, they just mention some Ford and Comma transmission oil.
Jan Kruber

Sorry, I thought it was.
Maybe it was in the (German?) Workshop manual? But l am sure Nigel is correct with his oil quantities.
GuyW

Jan,
that looks more or less the same stuff but a few pennies more for transaxle rather than manual gearbox (both are GL4). -

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-6363-castrol-syntrans-transaxle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-car-gearbox-oil-formerly-taf-x.aspx

https://www.opieoils.co.uk//p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-car-gearbox-oil.aspx

I've lost the numbers of the boxes that relate to which fill quantities and to which levels at or below the filler/level hole but some info might be in the Archives if you have the numbers off your gearbox.

Unless you're lucky enough to have a drain plug added you have to fill, top-up and drain (siphon) from the filler/level hole.

All I have left now is a PDF of the 1983 German (repair?) manual (not much good to me as I can hardly read English let alone German), PDF of the gearbox chapter from a Haynes, (PDF of Taking the fifth) and a few photos of various boxes including the sad sorry state of mine (same for clutch), you're welcome to any.


Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I speak and understand German fairly good, so I "Googled" the subject in German. A very few interresting (scaring) things showed up, among these: "....the 5th gear at T9 chronically gets too little oil and at longer vmax ride the gear pair dies of undersupply."....uch...
But it is difficould to pour oil in above the filler hole, right?
I have emailed my gearbox supplier, First Motion, about the issue, I'm very excited to hear his reply.
Jan Kruber

Hi Jan,
if you want the PDF of the 1983 German (repair?) manual or any of the other stuff just email me.

Getting the oil in the box isn't difficult just a bit more effort than it need be, bear in mind as far as Ford were concerned it was a once fill. I had an access hole drilled through the footwell side panel, I cut the trim panel too and filled the hole with a big closed grommet - see below (as RHD car).

As far as the 5th gear goes don't worry the midget is a lot lighter car than a Sierra or other models and you'll probably be putting the gearbox under less strain than many Sierras and other models and AFAIK the T9 is know generally as a sturdy box.

As with the engine and rear axle in the gearbox I like to use better quality oils that will offer additional protection over the standard oils giving more margin for performance and use and to thoroughly change the oils at regular intervals to keep the condition and protection at a high level. At these thorough oil changes you can also look for evidence of wear and the condition of oil.



Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Thank's for offering the PDF. My email is kru1(at)mailme.dk
I got a very quick response, as usual, from Paul of First Motion. He suggest that it is fine to fill until the oil runs over. Then run the engine warm and check and top up if nescessary two times.
Jan Kruber

Jan,
I'd certainly agree with checking the oil level after the gearbox has turned a few times and again later after a reasonable length drive.

I'll email stuff to you.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, is that German manual the one l sent you, or have you now found another one?
GuyW

Guy, that confirms it - yes it is the one you sent me, I put as much in an earlier post but wasn't sure.

I lost some stuff in an earlier computer foul-up.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
The Haynes pdf you emailed me is different from the one I have. In the one I have it say's that N gearboxes contains 1,9 liter of oil.
In the Haynes you emailed, they state too, that N boxes contain 1,9 liter of oil, BUT from 1987 they contain 1,25 liter of oil. That makes some sort of sense, I can not squeeze much more than that amount in my gearbox, so my gearbox must be from 1987 or newer.....
Jan Kruber

Jan,
I assume your gearbox was completely dry and not previously filled as residue oil in the gearbox (rear axle and especially engine, same for coolant) can amount to a lot more than you might expect.

I see I didn't put it this time but I usually put that all databases have errors and omissions including Haynes and even factory sources, (I did though put "often the best use for a Haynes is under a short table leg").

Just out of interest has your box got the higher or lower filler/level hole?

As I lost the info about the numbers on the boxes I did wonder in the photo below if the 839T meant a 1983 T9 box or whether it might even be a 4-speed box? All is lost to my memory.

To add to the confusion this article says capacity is 1.9 litres or 1.6 litres if the hole is 4mm lower. -

http://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Classic-Ford-May-2011-Ford-Type-9-five-speed-guide.pdf




Nigel Atkins

Jan,
sorry, on re-reading one of your posts I now realise I misunderstood you - no you can't (as far as I know) overfill the gearbox from the filler/level hole (if the gearbox is level) as the excess oil will run out of the filler/level hole.

But the excess oil will run out very slowly so leave the oil to run out the excess for as long as possible.

And even if you have excess oil running out you could still need to top the level up later as previously suggested.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, l would doubt that the number cast into the side of that box -839T - means it is a 1983 box as this would imply changing the cast each year. The boxes originally had a metal tag attached to one of the extension cover bolts which carried the version and year codes.

Since some of the boxes specify filling to a level 25mm below the filler hole, then filling up to the hole would result in overfilling wouldn't it? I don't know what this effect this would cause though.
GuyW

Guy,
you are right about both the tag and the filling.

I read about the tags after my post, I'd forgotten about this and no longer have those notes.

But with the filling to level hole that's what Jan's supplier has told him to do and as we don't know which box Jan has we can't say if that was the original instruction or not but it is the supplier's instruction.

My gearbox was filled to level and later I tried 20mm below as I've no idea which box it is but as it leaks at either level I decided to go back to the higher point.
Nigel Atkins

The other consideration is whether the gearbox itself sits at the same angle in a small Spritely thing, as it does in that mountain of a Sierra. I rather suspect not. Mine certainly slopes downwards towards the rear. Or at least the engine itself does so I presume that the gearbox does too, though I am not sure what datum one would use on a gearbox. If it slopes towards the rear, then there will be more oil in the 5th gear housing and remote extension, relative to the filling plug level.
GuyW

True there are many considerations.

I do wonder though if most (all?) suppliers and therefore users are told just to fill the box to the bottom of the filler hole regardless of which box it is and what car it came out of and is going in to.

I've not seen or heard of problems of overfilling the T9, that's not to say there might not be any but it's not a big worry for me as my supplier kindly provided an open oil release system in the box.

I tried 20mm lower level to see if that would make any difference to the leak(s), it didn't.
Nigel Atkins

I loose oil out of the tail shaft oil seal even though I have installed a new seal. I used to top it up to be level with the filler hole but it would leak out over a few hundred miles. I even raised the tail shaft by 3cm by putting a spacer under the gearbox mounting. I couldn't see much, if any, improvement.

Is this where you expect to see a leak if you overfill it?
Why did Ford change the oil quantity?
Is it because the design of the tail shaft housing changed?
If so does it mean you cannot swap tail shaft housings between early and late gearboxes?

Rob
MG Moneypit

Rob, you show-off, yours gets as far as the tail end before leaking, you luckily devil.

I suspect if you got the Haynes manuals for all the models of vehicles the Type 9 was designed for there would be many different types or oil and oil levels listed including changes by Ford and errors and omissions by Ford and Haynes.

"Sierra 1.6, 1.8, 2-litre, 2,3-litre, 2.8-litre
Mk2.Mk3 Granada 1.6, 2-litre, 2.3-litre and 2.8-litre
Mk3 Capri 1.6, 2-litre, 2.8-litre
Mk3 Transit
Sierra P100"

I read where one chap who worked on the cars returned to the garage with T9 gearbox faults in the mid-'80s remembers instructions to not fully fill the boxes (but which vehicles and boxes he doesn't say).

Four don't knows for your questions from me.

"The rear extension/tailshaft housings vary in appearance* and construction, although there is no difference in terms of lubrication of the bushes within."

*extra external horizontal rib that hides an oilway on the left-hand-side looking from the front
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
You kindly emailed me some pdf files, in all in excess of 12 Mb. I think this large size is the reason that my mailserver has crashed. I replied to the message, just wanted to say thank you, but propably due to the file sizes I couldnt send it to you.
Thats why I thank you this way and not by email.


Jan Kruber

Jan,
sorry about that. I split it out to two emails just in case. Did you get both emails and all the attachments, about 4 or 5 on each email?

You must have a very full inbox or weak email as I think I send bigger chunks out elsewhere, try a different oil in your server!

Is 12mb a lot then?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
We are on a trip to Iceland, Im strugling right now to get that f**** hot mail to work on the iphone. I just saw that your message was in the size of 16Mb actually. I dont know if it is the size or anything else that crashed the mail, or if it is the size, why did the server pass the message on if it cant handle it?
Jan Kruber

Sorry Jan I have not kept the emails as you said previously you had received them but I have just added up the most I can think I sent you over both emails and it came to less than 13mb.

I can only think perhaps the first larger email I sent twice by mistake or it went twice or was received twice as sometimes seems to happen.

First email took a little longer to swallow at my end than usual but it was only a matter of seconds, I have pretty fast broadband here normally.

I'm sorry if I have overloaded your email in the past I have been over cautious and told not to worry about such things nowadays.

As for why computers play up my mate tells me "because they can", another mate used to be in charge of multi-million pound computer projects and more than once they were scrapped after a couple of years without ever being implemented.

Computer programs are skyscrapers built on the flimsiest foundations why they do not collapse more often is the miriciale.
Nigel Atkins

Sorry Jan but it looks like it's not my emails at fault as far as I can tell. I tried to read up on this but it is more troublesome than T9 oil level, I don't know if this is correct but have read that an attachment converts to text so adds about a third so 12mb plus a third equals 16mb - but that was over two emails.

Hotmail limit I found was 10Mb (per file attachment) and if it was too big to receive it would be bounced back.

"What happens when you hit the maximum email size limit?

Obviously, if you send an email that exceeds the maximum email size limit of the recipient’s email provider, your email will bounce off and you will receive an email error back in your mailbox. Usually, you will receive one of the following error messages:
– “Attachment size exceeds the allowable limit”;
– “552: Message size exceeds maximum permitted”;
– “System Undeliverable, message size exceeds outgoing message size limit”;
– “The size of the message you are trying to send exceeds the global size limit of the server. The message was not sent; reduce the message size and try again”."

My server's limit seems to be 25mb so the email if even 16mb would leave my server but would bounce back to me if too big for yours.

Outlook seems to have no problems at the moment and nothing much reported in the last 24 hours from what little I can find so your problem might be from i-phone backwards.

Switch it off, forget about it for a good few hours and it could well be sorted later.

Good luck.
Nigel Atkins

Jan,
guess what turned up today
"This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent has not yet been delivered to one or more of its recipients after more than 24 hours on the queue on ********

The date of the message is: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:59:00 +0100

Delay reason: mailbox is full

No action is required on your part. Delivery attempts will continue for some time, and this warning may be repeated at intervals if the message remains undelivered. Eventually the mail delivery software will give up, and when that happens, the message will be returned to you."

I might be wrong but I don't think that email is one with attachments just perhaps the conformation one I sent you.

If you want to delete the attachments or emails I can resend the attachments individually when you get back to a more robust machine.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I will try to sort it out when I get back home
Jan Kruber

Life without email isn't all bad, have a break from it and remember what life used to be like email - more relaxed.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 22/04/2018 and 28/04/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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