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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Four point harness

Help needed for someone with a little lacking of ideas.

I looking to fit a Cobra type seat for when I do trackdays as I need to get lower in the car and have not got loads of spare cash. Probably a Monaco or something like that (I Haven't been out in the rain yet to make sure it fits), but I guess the first question is.... can a seat like this be fitted to the base/runners I already have in the car.
How have you guys done this?

Harness, four point preferably but how and where do I fix the rear two points?
Just to assist with your answers, my car does not have bumpers (bolts) or a roll bar.
I have seen one car with the fixing bolts in the panel directly behind the seat - someone else has questioned the strength of this.

Your kind and most welcome advice would be appreciated.

Chris

Chris Guards Red Midget

A Cobra Monaco will fit in the car no problem - we have one in the race car.

However it will NOT fit to your existing seat runners. For ours we made up 2 brackets out of mild steel which bolt to the seat and thence to the floor, with reinforcing plates beneath the floor (ie fixed seat). These brackets were arranged such that they are slightly higher at the front than the rear so as to tilt the seat back slightly.


"I have seen one car with the fixing bolts in the panel directly behind the seat - someone else has questioned the strength of this."

The panel of which you speak is the same gauge metal as the floor where the extant harness pick ups are!

With regard to the harness, the shoulder strap eyebolts should be positioned behind the sear equidistantly. It is perfectly acceptable for them to go through the horizontal panel just forward of the bulkhead, the panel reinforcement comes from the plates into which the eyebolts screw (supplied with the harness).
Deborah Evans

Thanks for your help.

Since the raining has now stopped I have measured the space available for the Monaco which according to the online literature show a width of 550mm. I appear to only have 520 max.
The clubman is a bit narrower, I guess the same type of bracketry can be used.

Again, thanks for your help, I guess from previous messages you can see that I am trying to get sorted for Track days.

Chris
Chris Guards Red Midget

I'm not noted for being safety-concious (I usually despise the modern molly-coddling approach to H&S) but IMO you would be daft to contemplate doing track days without first fitting a rollover bar. Then you can trial-fit a seat, as the widest part is usually the 'wings' at shoulder level and these often come up against the rollbar.
I would NOT fit the rear belt mounts in the 'parcel shelf' panel just ahead of the rear bulkhead without some serious reinforcing underneath. I fitted a piece of 3/16" thick 2" x 1" steel angle right across the underside of the body in between the inner rear arches before drilling the belt mount holes. The side mounts are OK because they are set in the inner sill and tunnel panels at 90 degrees to the line of strain so give a completely different strength calculation.
David Smith

I'd agree with David

having seen a midget turn right over on a track day, wiping the screen surround and everything above the door line off the car effectively, I (and I hate having it but...) would never consider a track day without a rollover bar either...

If I were to fit a four point harness (yes Gary I AM considering it!) I would fit it to the floor of the wheel arch tunnel/front boot section and reinforce it with an underfloor plate. This would mean slotting the panel behind the seat, to feed the straps through. And of course use the normal sill and proptunnel locations.

Bill sdgpm

Having hung upside down by my belts, I can say with my hand on my heart that just drilling the back panel and fitting the spreader plates/washers on the underside is sufficient, even to withstand the retardation of a 13 stone Max (it *was* a long time ago...). And yes that reinforces the need for a roll cage.

Max Tyler

The harnesses in my last car was just as Debs describes and never had a problem with scruiteneering. The only comment that was ever made (Daniel iirc some years ago)was that the 2 eye bolts on the rear panel may have been a little low in relation to the slots in the seat so the angle of the harness was a little steep.
A Monaco seat fits fine, although plan your brackets well as there is no room to get a spanner down the sides!
John Collinson

I can report that a Sparco Pro-2000 also fits :-) Although whether it'll be possible to get me in at the same time remains unresolved :-(

Here's one for Daniel or any scrutineers reading:

Is it legal for me to add a horizontal bar to my proprietory roll cage so that I can get the angle of the belts right?
Max Tyler

Just bought an (ex-Californian) 1977 Midget.
No safety belts. The (Dutch) license papers say: no belts needed as not original mounted.

Of course I want to install belts, but cannot find any bolts where to connect them.
I cannot imagine it is allowed to drill some holes somewhere and put a bolt for the safety belt in.

Anyone who can give me advise on how to proceed?
B Elfrink

Ive given this some breif thought as well,

The 1st mount Id use the mounting hole that the seat runners sits on top of in the rear on the floor ,for the 2nd mount Id use the orginal hole thats next to the tunnel, the 3rd mount to the original seat belt mount in the rear next to the soft top hinge and the 4th id attach to the roll over bar.

might look ugly, but better the car and not my face if it ever rolled over.

Have you looked at the sparco seats, they measure exactly the same size as the midget seats and they come in all colors and materials...not sure if they would mount to the midget seat runners, but I cant imagine why they wouldnt.

(google "Sparco" seats you will get thousands of hits)

Prop
Prop***The End in 2012

Thanks all for the advice above. For the moment I have chosen to 'cool it' with regard to track days.

This is something that I really want to do, but, whilst I acknowledge all of the safety advice above I am not sure whether I want to fit a roll over bar and possibly spoil the look of the car.

I have also read several old posts on roll over bars, and the problem with the bars either being a cosmetic accessory or one that would work but would hinder the use of the hood.

I have seen many different types of bars on spridgets and I guess can deduce from this that it would have to be purpose made item.
Therefore for me to go on a track day safely, then I will be looking at a considerable outlay (Helmet, Seat, Harnesses + Roll-over bar).

So for the moment I will just have to wait and be patient.

Thanks again for your help.
Chris Guards Red Midget

Don't worry about it Chris, it's really no problem.

>>>>>>>>.one that would work but would hinder the use of the hood

nope, it doesn't if you get the twin hoop road style which is perfectly adequate.

>>>>>>>> I guess can deduce from this that it would have to be purpose made item

nope, there are different types but they're all just off-the-shelf bolt in items.

You can get perfectly serviceable ones from £30 on a "well-known internet auction site"

You only need go for the rear bar, the front cage would be a "nice to have" for light trackday work not a "must have"

Belts start around £50-ish brand new on the same web site. TRS have a nice 3-point "Clubman" which is perfect for what you want. They can clip out and store away at the end of the session so you use the ordinary ones on the road.

I do endorse the idea of a decent seat with a built-in head restraint though. Try Peter Lloyd Rallying or Rally Design, they're always keen as mustard on prices. Would be comfy and practical for road use too.

Helmets - IIRC you can hire these from MGs on track - someone will put me right if this isn't so. A basic-spec one will set you back in the region of £40, motorbike standard is fine for track days.

Go on, make the trip to the Dark side! you'll enjoy it s-o much.
Max Tyler

I thought about a roll Overbar too but dont think it will fitt once i have my MGF seats in.
As i feal as most comfortable with the backrest of the seat bended to the rear the roll bar would be over my headrest and therefore be a danger to my head as it could smack against the barr insted of headrest.

If i want to place it behind the headrest but still fitting under the hood it would have to be lowerd but then would block my rearmirror view...

I wanted the padded(zippable leathercover)one as i dont want anything diagonal blocking my rearmirror view.

see angle on image


Arie de Best

" motorbike standard is fine for track days"

'Fraid not.

For MGoT days your helmet must conform to MSA 'Blue Book' standards.

Furthermore a number of Circuits (all the MSV ones) now stipulate this as well.

Current MSA Standards are:

• FIA 8860-2004
• SNELL SA2005
• SNELL SA2000
• SFI Foundation 31.1A, 31.2A
• BS 6658 Type A/FR
• BS 6658 – 85 Type A (Type ‘B’ is not acceptable)

Currently the MSA state that the BS 6658 – 85 Type A will be withdrawn from 01/01/10 and that BS 6658 Type A/FR and SNELL SA2000 may be withdrawn from 01/01/10.

There is also a new EC Standard coming in but I am not aware yet whether this is acceptable.
Deborah Evans

Max,

My personal view is that providing the welding was of a satisfactory standard I wouldn't see a problem with what you suggest. If however, your roll bar is certified than I'd suggest you get the supplier to do the work and then re-certify it.

I think in your case you are so tall it really makes sense to do what you suggest.

The issue for the shoulder harness straps is that the rear locating eye becomes the pivot such that in a front impact the belt wants to lie horizontal to the pivot. Your body weight is acting upon the belt using the pivot while your collarbone/shoulder bones (?) and possibly the seat prevent the belt pivoting to horizontal - until something gives.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

All good advice so far, but I don't like the idea of fastening the shoulder straps at a point more than a couple of inches below your shoulder height when strapped in the seat. If the belts are attached lower then in the event of a sudden stop your body moves forward and the belts tend to compress your spine. Having the belts fastened at shoulder height puts the stress across your chest without the compressive effect. I advise fitting a roll bar and then adding a cross tube that the shoulder straps can attach to.
You can see the added cross bar running from the diagonal brace to the side of the main hoop in the photo.


Bill Young

Bill Young - perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post but I meant to say actually what you have since said. Also the cross bar in your photo is I think exactly what Max has in mind.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

>>>>>>>>>>>" motorbike standard is fine for track days"

>>>>>>>>>'Fraid not.

Oh, OK, ta Deborah I wasn't aware - Rally Design & Peter Lloyd again.

Thnaks for the advice Daniel, it is a Safety Devices cage but so old the homologation must have expired. I have an excellent welder available.
Max Tyler

This thread was discussed between 28/03/2009 and 05/04/2009

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