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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - French leave two OMG not!

Finally got myself into the garage for a couple of hours, so I began whipping the engine apart.

The plan for after Le Mans was to partially strip the engine in an attempt to stop some of the oil leaks, having the breakdown and the new knee caused a long delay to the job, but hey ho, on we go.

The clutch cover did its usual distortion as I undid it, I was a little concerned in case the clutch problems that stranded me in France might have damaged the diaphragm but it came through the ordeal very well, no obvious sign of damage. It is going back on.

As I expected however the clutch plate was not as healthy.

When I lifted the cover off I could see the edges of the gearbox facing side had great scallops carved out in regular places and the centre section had been divorced from the friction ring... :(

The thin drive plate edges were well destroyed after being torn by the offcentre action of the release bearing, more on this in a bit.

This means having to attempt to trace a new driven plate, which is a sod because there was actually rather a decent amount of thickness left. I need to find one like Guy's or be held to ransom at Morris Minor Centre for one of the expensive "specials"


Bill1

When I looked inside the crankshaft spigot it looked a litle worse for wear after all that hammering, I reckon there's some work needed here before next month buggerit.


Bill1

But that is for next week to worry about, this weekend I have an engine to play with.

I seem to recall I went to Peter Burgess for my tune up just before my first sojourn to Le Mans, that was the year of "The Bentley Boys Triumphant Victory" 2003 so the engine has been pretty well hammered mercilessly since he ran his magic fingers over the HIF's needle.

I was interested to see how much the hammering had done to the internals, the list is quite intensive

Ace Cafe twice or more a year (merciless motorway hammering)

Marham track days seven or eight times and the run to the sun (and French rain) eight times since 2003.

Plus a more or less pedal to the floor driving method (There aint NO STYLE the way I treat her) so after sitting sadly awaiting my return to "strong enough to give it a go" here's the cylinder head just off the block.

Some sign of carbonning in the chambers and the beginnings of a cyls two and three gasket fail. But I am happy with this. No damage yet seen and the Payen lived up to its good reputation.

I'd like to have the head skimmed a tad to raise the CR so that is on the agenda if my favourite engine man can spare a little skim time. Although I would love Peter to give the head some work that may have to wait until a later date now I have to rebuild the transmission a bit :(

The bores look fine, no huge wear marks down them. So I need to whip off the sump to look at the bearings as I would like to feel confident about the next ten years service.

It should all be down to extreme care with the gaskets and oil seals then get back onto the clutch soon.

As always I am ready to note ideas about the stuff I am missing ;)


Bill1

Bill,

That is a 1st... ive never seen a clutch plate like that

Can the flywheel be saved... that would be a massive amount of rsurfacing...probably have to modify the slave pin and make it longer

Good luck

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop, the flywheel surface does not look TOO bad in normal light.

I may not do anything to it at all, we'll see.

The damage you can see on the flywheel bolts seems to have been caused by the broken clutch centre running out of true and are really just shiny polished edges on the hexagon nuts.

Since my clutch has a concentric slave cylinder I will not have to adapt the push rod.


Big question chaps, new round flywheel tab washer or leave the old one alone.


Bill1

Looks like a pretty clean running engine, Bill. Probably just want the valves lapping lightly whilst it is apart. And your light skim will dress that surface up nicely.

Will the spigot bush just replace or has it damaged the end of the crank as well?

Apart from tearing itself apart, your clutch driven plate has stood up well to the use it has had. From the photo, I would have guessed the flywheel needed a skim, but maybe that is more a function of discolouration and the effect of the flash than actual wear?
Guy W

And Bill, the driven plate.
I have a recollection that the 1300 Avenger plate is the one to go for that matches the T9 input shaft. I do remember a helpful man at the Partco counter opening up various boxes so I could trial fit a T9 input shaft until we got one that worked. I had the idea it was a Fiesta one but for which version I cannot remember now. And stupidly I lost, or never made a note of the one I used.

It was very slightly bigger diameter than the Sprite driven plate but still just fitted under my standard Sprite clutch cover. I was on a tight budget and wanted to keep the standard parts that were OK at the time and I had only just replaced that bit after the previous one got damaged from clutch overthrow. But you know all about what that does to them!
Guy W

The Avenger plate is what I have on my type 9. The rest of the clutch is a 1098 standard one.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie just provided me the missing link for this

The 1098 clutch is 184mm diameter
The 1275 clutch is 165mm diameter
The 1300 Chrysler clutch is 184mm diameter :(

Looks like either redrilling and tapping the flywheel or popping down to Oldbury and the MMC

Or finding a friendly clutch expert who can provide a smaller diameter [23 spline /1"diameter shaft] Ford unit

Was that pig wearing wings?

The flywheel face was the same as this the last time I fitted a clutch and hasn't seemed to do any harm to the driven plate, whatever 'best practice' says.

The flywheel will have to come off for when I 'redo from start' the Peter May rear end seal to check on its behaviour, I just cannot find where all the oil is dropping from.

I hadn't noticed any damage on the end of the input shaft, I'll check tomorrow when I get the bonnet off again.

bill
Bill1

On another tack, Guy does your concentric slave have a secondary oil seal inside the hole?

I just bought one like yours to try out [yours hasn't broken, mine has, so maybe the Ford one is better, all being in one piece unlike the Saab one which has three bits in it.]

I note there's a nice posh oil seal inside it.

Off next week to sort out a 'drain' pipe for the small fitting.
Bill1

Bill,
That small fitting drain plug was a bit of a head scratcher. After much looking, I found a fitting from a feed to a diesel injector pump that fitted, and then used a compression connector to adapt it up to a standard bleed nipple size. A flexible pipe would have been a lot neater.

Not sure what you mean by a secondary slave seal inside the hole ??

My driven plate was around 8 to 10 mm larger in diameter than the 1275 one. Which puts it at maybe 175mm using Bernie's info as 165 for the standard. There must be parts lists which show overall diameter, bore of the central hole and number of splines in a tabular form. One ought to be able to just look it up somewhere. Surprised that you don't have such a thing, Bill?
Guy W

Guy,

The QH clutch list has this information and I have looked before and they didn't list any clutch plate that would go into a standard 1275 cover and fit the type 9 1" x 23 spline input shaft. I have seen it mentioned here many times that there is one but no one has said what application it is. For a 7.5 clutch like the 1098 there are various applications in the Ford range and the Avenger as mentioned previously. Fortunately I have a copy of the QH clutch PDF saved as QH have now gone that useful resource is missing. I wish I had saved the lot.
David Billington

Guy I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that you would even doubt it. 8(

This one gives the Avenger plate as 184mm, which looks to be 0.7 " larger

I will pop round to my localest spares chap with my cover plate ASAP

It would be nice if there was enough room inside it


Bill1

That is a piece of automotive gold dust David, well worth hanging on to.

Guy. The oil seal business, my Burton Engineering adaptor has its own gear box input shaft seal which replicates the front face casting of the type9 one.

The Ford concentric I bought also has a similar seal that would fit further up the shaft as I will be using a (new) spacer to adapt the distance it works over

I don't see any reason not to allow for two seals, anything that keeps oils at bay is on my 'good guys' list.

:)

Bill1

Bill: in that case yes. My Ford one had a groove on the back with an "O" ring fitted. And the spacer block that I machined fits up to and seals against both that one, and retains the original Type 9 one as well. So yes, double seals.

And as for the driven plate. Fact - I bought it locally roughly 10 years ago from a normal mainstream parts shop (Partco). It fitted directly onto the 23 spline T9 input shaft. And it clears a standard 1275 cover plate. Whether that was/ is a QH or a Borg & Beck I cannot remember. I do know that when offered up it was slightly larger than the shiny polished surface of the flywheel where the previous plate had operated.

I could well do with knowing what it is that I used! One of these days I am going to need a replacement!

I have just thought of something. I wonder if the Partco computer would tell me? I was surprised a few months ago when I went in to buy some bearing kits for the forward mounted round things on my car, that the chap was able to look on my account on his screen and tell me which ones I had bought from them previously back in 2007, and what date it was! The T9 conversion was done 5 years before that though, so it may not be on the system. But it would be worth a try!
Guy W

That makes a troll round my local Partcos worth while then, thanks again Guy.

Bill1

Bill, sorry to hear of your woes.

Interested to see your photos, my Frontline supplied clutch is still going strong but I'm sure it can't be long before something similar to yours happens. I've got about 100bhp at the wheels and all the full bore starts it gets on sticky tyres makes me wonder how it survives!

Anyway just been out to the garage and not sure if this will be of any help but here is the number from the plate in my car:

T60104

Sorry, no other info but it might help.

I have a spare oilite bush for the spigot adaptor somewhere so might be able to supply you with the part no for that. They are only a few pounds from your local bearing place.

Flywheel bolts wise I've replaced mine with ARP ones and don't use the tab washer thing. It seemed too soft and crushed and distorted when torquing up the bolts. I use locktite now.

Good luck with the rebuild!
John Payne

Cheers John, that might help although a quick Googling didnt pick up anything yet

And tomorrow will probably pick up this thread :)

I should be OK for a new oilite if this one is beyond the pale, pretty good selection of engineering sources locally thanks.

I used Loctite as well as the silly washer, last time around. I expect it to be a bear to get them out...
Bill1

John I just checked my nicely torn clutch driven plate, yup it has the same number.


I hope I can get a replacement this week or I will be stumped.
Bill1

Cheers Bill, I'll read with interest your search for a replacement, I'm worried mine might go the same way now!

How much is one from Frontline?
John Payne

Bill, So where did your original (torn) plate come from?
T60104 - Frontline, like John's? Or is Frontline supplying one available from other sources?
Guy W

Mine was from the original developer of the conversion, Morris Minor Centre Oldbury, now known as David Manners/ Morris Minor centre.

I had a shock when I looked at their website price list for parts for their midget conversion, in the order of £500 and they don't list parts separately any more

I think I may be needing a new spigot bearing as the entry section of mine looks pretty well rounded off.

I have been away from the garage today, but I will be back in tomorrow to check out the flywheel area. Also got to check out the input shaft just in case of more nasties.

Looking at my pistons it seems I may have 1275 mini low compression ones fitted, (21251+020) so I'm not sure whether to get Peter B to skim a lot off the head or not. Some commentators on t'intynet say they aren't good for very high CRs, not that I want a lot. Just a little bit extra. Lara could whip my licence away from me quickly enough as she is already.

Oh well we'll see what happens this week, I'm not going to completely strip her down and start spending money I'm not earning any more.

Bill1

Watch those knees Bill! I suppose if you have the engine out on the bench (or stand) its not so bad. But you want to be able to get in and out of the thing when you are done!
Guy W

:)

Waist high on the bench, but dont ask how I managed that on the day before my operation


Bill1

I have been phoning around today coupled with more work in the garage,

MMC want £58 for a driven plate and a tenner for a new spigot bearing, the only good side to that is they have 'em in stock.

But the one I have looks useable.

I'm struggling to find a banjo fitting for the concentric too, well struggling for less than £40 should I say. Eek!

I'm going to have a drive around day this week searching for the ideal non-MMC plate, a banjo ended pipe (8mm thread) and a '100 78 10 single seal' oil seal to fit in the Peter May rear seal fitment. Might be £15 if I have the right one in mind, bless the interweb for shopping.

Suppose I should ask Peter May if he sells the seals separately from the kit first.

The oil leak seems to have come from the old oil seal slopping around because the fitment cap head screws worked loose and let the seal run off centre. Lots of Loctite threadlock down the newly cleaned out threads should sort that. I hope...

The head cleaned up very nicely, I may bung a picture in tomorrow if anyone wants to see a normal A+ cylinder head (Prop?) ready to skim. I will probably check the valve seats after a paraffin test in the morning.

And I managed to fix a faulty light switch on my mate's BMW motorbike, I won't charge him the ninety quid the BMW shop wanted for a new one.

Quite a busy day so far, time for a long soaky bath.

Where did I last see that rubber ducky?

Bill1

Bill,
Photo of my Ford concentric. That undersized bleed fitting that they use was a real bear to sort out. Photo shows what I eventually did, using a diesel injector pipe with a banjo fitting head (ex scrapyard, of course!)
Not very neat, but it was the best I could do in limited space available.

Looking at the photo, I cannot remember why I didn't just drill the connection out and retap it to suit a 3/8 pipe fitting? Maybe I was worried about getting the bottom of the hole true enough to take and seal a flared pipe end?


Guy W

Then outside the box I used a CH compression fitting to scale it up to the size it should have been in the first place!


Guy W

That is the picture I needed Guy thanks

The compression fitting is for small bore central heating is it? That ought to be easy enough to source if I can get the banjo bits tomorrow.

Cheers mate
Bill1

Yes, a CH fitting with different sized olives at either end.

But what do you think of drilling and retapping the bleeding side to take a brake line? Why didn't I do that?
Guy W

I thought about it for four or five milliseconds

Too much risk of swarf getting inside the gubbins bit

I am heading down the way you did it, unless I can come up with an adapter, 8mm one side and standardised brake fittings thread on the other.

Got to check out Dave's lathe later this week, wonder if he has a dollop of spare brass...


Bill1

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIKINGEAR-MOTORCYCLE-MIRROR-ADAPTORS-CONVERTS-10mm-TO-8mm-/310404617896?clk_rvr_id=519027293132

I wonder...
Bill1

Looks hopeful. Presumably you would need to machine a cone end on it to seal inside the slave fitting.

There may be something off the shelf.
eg http://tinyurl.com/nfb348o
May not be quite right but the same company seem to have a pretty wide selection of fittings. Worth a phone call?

I think a complicating factor is the forward slope of the bell housing above where the pipe is to connect. It would restrict the height of any adaptor and fitting as the pipe needs to curve forward pretty close to the top of the slave. But maybe there is an elbow adaptor available.
Guy W

complicating?

I do have a nangle grinder tha knows :)

I have ordered one of the ones you found, must be worth a small punt for it. Looks good, 10mm one end 8mm at the other. I'm sure I can finagle a fitment out of that.

Thanks Guy
Bill1

Don't rely on my selection for the thread sizes as I haven't measured mine for a good few years now. (its difficult to get at, you know!) I thought I still had the removed long bleed nipple and have just spent 1/2 hour looking through likely spares boxes in the garage searching for it to check the thread. No luck!
Guy W

And lo, the rear seal is available from Peter May at £13ish

Just about the same as I can get from the seal sellers online

That job is now a winner
Bill1

The thread on the slave bleeder is 8mm, mormal metric brake pipe fittings can be 10mm so a nice adapter with both AND a hole down the middle will almost certainly be ok for the job.

I will probably need to turn a small chamfer inside the central holes so that a bell flange end can be put on the pipe to seal the fluid inside.

If this works it can go in the archives like the other stuff, we will end up with several working methods for future info.

When I need to check the archives for this stuff I use "Ford concentric Guy" as a search parameter, always works nicely for me.

As long as I search in Midget and Sprite Technical, using General is awesomely less useful. :)

Having ordered the oil seal and the adapter I am having a bit of "not in the garage" time now. The Gaffer doesn't like me to overdo the standing at the bench stuff cos it strains the old legs summat wicked.

Working at the clutch plate issue tomorrow now, I admit I'm shillyshallying but a bit at a time will get me to the Ace next month. No worries...
Bill1

Interesting day today

Phoned several clutch "remanufacturers" looking for a quote for the specialist plate (No chance to use the car for cruising the West Mids in search of the very rare Avenger driven plate today) and the best I had was £40+Labour+VAT+postage, looks near enough to the MMC price to me when all added in. A chap near East Angular wanted the old one back first then asked how much MMC wanted, I said about £70ish and he said, "Blimey that's a good price. Doubt if I could get it in any lower."

So its all down to hoping a 180mm will fit within the Midget's clutch cover dish. I have me doubts, this looks as if it has about 174mm of spare room at the metal outside casing.

So I stayed on my feet at the bench and whipped off the sump and a big end cap. It looked as if it went in last week and had hardly ever been used. Smooth grey surface with the faintest of line marks. Lovely, now to torquue it back down. Waiting the word of which setting my mate used when he built up the lump all those years ago. My Haynes says 37lb/ft or 50, he will remember...

Peter May was as good as his word too, the brand new rear oil seal popped through the letterbox today too. The seal lip is lovely and sharp.

Why didn't somebody remind me? Turning an engine upside down CAN result in the dizzy drive shaft falling loose...

Now I have to retime her and that is one task I hoped to avoid :(

I have coork seals to use for the sump, would I be better served by dashing off to get a couple of moulded rubber ones?


Bill1

No help with the rubber or cork seal question guys?

Anyway, after much soul searching and walking into brick walls in the clutch plate search I bit the bullet and bought one from MMC, £57 +VAT.

The picture shows old and new together.

As I mentioned (I think I did) there was a place down in the West Country that could build me a dissimilar parts one for £40+ and labour and postage, which may have come in slightly cheaper but as I needed to replace the spigot bearing adapter too a trip to Oldbury solved the thing.

I went to several/many parts factors including Partco/Unipart and none could get me a single plate, I would have had to buy a complete kit. Considering I would have needed to check the plate in the clutch cover for available space I considered myself 'carborundumed'. Not buying a possible just so I could throw away two of the parts from the box.

I was sadly able to judge that my dear old Brum is no longer able to call herself the city of a thousand trades, as I spent most of the day hunting down very small pipe fittings. "There was a pneumatics chap down that street there" --- well he ain't there now, nor is he here or over there. Nor there. I went into Brum's biggest pneumatics/hydraulics place Pirtek hoping the lad on the trade counter could help me with this mysterious 8mm bleed thread. "No mate, we don't go that small. Why don't you try this place in West Brom?" Hands me a ragged piece of paper, 'blahblah rallysport in Spon Lane'

Nightmare journey along the Karachi High Street/Soho Rd to West Bromwich. (there must be 200 Saree and Asian Gold shops if there's one and dozens of Asian sweet shops)

Travel was decidedly slow. blahblah rallysport was invisible, I didn't find it. Guy, have you any old injector spill pipes going cheap? :(

I eventually got home with the new plate and gave up.

Today however I have been down in my mate's garage workshop trying to machine a new support plate for the concentric.

Trying because when he told me he'd sorted his four jaw chuck, well basically he lied. He only had his small three jaw which has worn the chuck so badly I cannot get the lead in screw thread to go in at the wider outside grip position so I could grip the lump of ally. Had to drill the approximate centre on his pillar drill (for which give thanks) then grip a large nut aned bolt passed through to be able to start turning. The poor feeble old lathe didn't like that either and I had to hacksaw the billet blank in half.

This leaves me with the chance of finishing the plate tomorrow ready for fitting the cylinder.

When I can get the hydraulics up and running.

Who said this would all be easy?


Bill1

Any explanation from MMC as to why the new plate has more springs Bill?
John Payne

Bill,
I've had black rubber?plastic? (can't remember) rear sump seal TAM1089 and pre-shaped front cork seal LBZ10005 and then found I get the straight lengths of cork seal in with the other gaskets so have about 6 spare straight cork seals you can have to experiment with if you want, I'd post them to you for nowt
Nigel Atkins

I didn't ask John, though I had the old one with me.

After the chap behind the barricade (you should see the sales desk!) told me the wrong way to fit the plate to the flywheel I lost enthusiasm for conversation there.

Pay up...bugger off...get home for a cuppa.

A long fruitless day round the missing bits of my industrial heritage did that to me. :(

I expect the 'spring effort' from the four thicker springs is reduced by the less than half the thickness of the newer plate's springs to a similar amount.

(sadly I am not clever enough to work it out with a pencil...or paper)

I imagine the spec must end up similar on both, I think the weight of each one is similar.
Bill1

Cheers Nigel, nice offer but not to worry.

After discussion with the guy who built this engine I am going to try for more of the moulded ones, as he recommends them 'every time!'.

But thank you for offering, if my plans go awry I will let you know and polish up the begging bowl. ;)
Bill1

Hi

If you are looking for Avenger or Sunbeam clutch bits try:
Dave van der Vlist who ran Dutche Components (the Avenger and Sunbeam tuning people) davevandervlist@btinternet.com

Or Speedy Spares (who bought up R J Grimes the biggest Rootes parts suppliers) www.speedyspares.co.uk

Or Helix Clutches: http://www.helix-autosport.com/home/

A Hunter clutch may be the same as an Avenger or Sunbeam one?

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

When searching Helix's website look under Talbot
M Wood

I'm wondering how much of a skim to give the head now, too much may cause piston damage after all.

I don't have a glass (or perspex)sheet and a pipette so I can copy Prop and measure stuff accurately. YET

Do we think 040" would be safe enough? I remember shaving 1/8" off a '12G29thingy' head for my A35, boy that made the chambers look tiny. Never got the car back on the road to test it though before it got scrapped :(

I suppose realistically a trip to Alfreton for a skim might not be financially sensible, much as I would love to get pottering round Peter's fantasic workshop again...

I remember there was discussion here about the relative "sizes" of things like the piston top to ring inside the bore capacity and the widely dished piston capacity that I could then measure the depth from the top to the piston upper edge and get something to work with so I can calculate the CR I could safely use.

I had to use the cork seals on the sump end arches so the sump and now the flywheel are back in place this afternoon.

I'm wondering whether to undo the flywheel bolts again and add Locktite as well as the bigtab washer?

I am in the workshop tomorrow on the lathe again, hoping to foinish the concentric support doodah

And hoping to turn a 10mm brake pipe fitting to 8mm so I can put a metric thread on it.

Happy days
Bill1

The new clutch slave is now fitted to its billmade support unit and the clutch pipes fixed in position through a crudely hacked out hole in the MMC bellhousing.

If I still owned a decent hand drill I would have measured back from the upper access hole and drilled out a nicely shaped access hatch.

My Black and Decker Professional was lifted quietly from inside my garage one warm day when the doors were left open and unattended for five minutes.

Fortunately the thieving scum didn't have time to find my power tool cupboard and relieve me of my angle grinder, power saw and planer.

I still have the angle grinder and a face full of cast ally dust... yuk!

Anyway, this has left me with an untidy hacked out hole and a wish for some aluminium MIG wire and some argoshield to build some of it up again some day...

A plan for later

for now, try not to wince chaps


Bill1

A view from above, note the dust




Bill1

mines got a plate and some liquid metal and it seems to have done the trick
Nigel Atkins

The new mounting support plate, all the new screw holes are countersunk in hope of making more clamping force on the screws.

I am hoping the new screws will resist loosening better than the inset cap heads I used on the first version that fell apart in France.

A few shakedown mile to that London/Home Counties area planned for next month.


Bill1

Liquid metal might be a plan Nigel, thanks it's a good call.

Still got plenty of JB Weld I could use.
Bill1

It's very important to fit the Morris Minor (poss Frontline too) spigot bearing unit to the flywheel the right way round or the gearbox will NOT go back in the car.

This I can confirm dammit

The input shaft splines slide inside the clutch plate very nicely and will jam up against the spigot bearing adapter. The final 1/4" between backplate and box DO NOT go together, no matter how hard you try.


Look!


Here I am removing the Loctited screws, note the traces (traces? huge blooming mess more like) of dried glue

Also note the spline marks imposed round the spigot, this boss must be fitted to face inside the flywheel

:(

Oh well, the engine and gearbox are back in the car now, final gearbox mounting beam nut needs tightening tomorrow then I can pipe her all up and add essential fluids and wires.



Bill1

Happier picture, going back together ready to go in the car.


Bill1

How do you like this lovely Peco manifold?

I don't!

I kinda think the centre branch ought to roughly line up with t'others... But then again the others aren't a perfect line up either.

As you can see the engine is back in, the gearbox mounting also nicely snugged up too.

Afternoon of light work, major plumbing tomorrow. Already had enough major plumbing (domestic series) for today.


Bill1

Just so no-one (Prop) gets worried silly overnight, all did line up at the end of fitting.

In fact it went together too easily and I suspect a potential broken manifold (again) is on the horizon, but for now all is tightened snugly with half washer packing pieces to make up the gap difference between the Titan and the Peco flanges.

More tomorrow, I will not be keeping up the flow on the "Studs" thread in M&S General. That is sorted now.


Bill1

Looking great bill

I think the ex manifold alinment is fairly common for the 2-1 pipe fit....it sure looks like it bolted into place okay

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

This thread was discussed between 07/09/2013 and 30/09/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.