MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Frogeye rear bodyshell

A new thread for a new year.
This is really a follow-on from my "Paint Colour Codes" thread as it was getting a bit long and can be slow to load, especially with lots of photos. And anyway it had drifted from colour codes, 'though that is still an issue for me that still needs resolving!

To recap; I am reassembling the rear end of my MK1 sprite having reconstructed most of the main body tub structure from a very "filigree" basket case. I am now at the stage of reassembling the rear bodywork shroud and then hopefully fitting it to the main tub.

In getting to this stage I have done A LOT of welding and have where possible made new panels from stock sheet steel rather than buying reproduction ones. Not that there is anything wrong with reproduction panels, I just like the challenge of seeing what I can achieve!

Here's the other rear inner wing. There's quite a lot of new steel in this shot!




Guy W

One of the problems with using DIY fabricated repair panels is being confident that the resulting dimensions end up correct! I am wondering if I have the width of the rear corners of the rear wheel wells right as I am finding it quite difficult getting the wings of the assembled rear shroud to fit properly.

So can someone (Bill maybe?) confirm a couple of measurements for me please. In the photo, the blue line, A to B on mine is 3 3/4". As I built up a new outer section for the inner wheel arch I am wondering if I have this wider than it should be?

The other test measurement is across the full width of the car between the rear corners of the wheel well, point A to the equivalent point on the off/side, taking a tape measure under the boot floor. Mine measures exactly 51", though I guess if measured on a finished shell with outer wings fitted it might be slightly more.

AND - if getting measurements is too much of a faff then don't worry about it! I'm just sharing thoughts really - its not essential!


Guy W

Guy are you doing all this work at home, if you are I would be very interested of having a look at your project, if you are in agreement, ( I know where you live)A.T
Andy Tilney



Andy knows where guy lives

Guy...you know that feeling that your being watched at 2am while your a sleep ....yeah umh mmmm
1 Paper

Ha Prop! I guess lots of people know where I live. Its the ones that know where I live but I don't know who they are that worry me!

Andy, yes I am working on this at home. In a very cluttered and chaotic single garage. I doubt very much indeed that you would learn anything from seeing the hulk in its present state!
Guy W

OK Guy, perhaps when you have made a bit more progress, and had a tidy up, if you need any tools give me a shout,
Andy Tilney

Not putting you off Andy! Just saying I doubt you would learn anything. ;-) I would be quite happy to meet up, just not at 2am!
As for a tidy up - that really isn't achievable. The problem is simply too much stuff in too small a workspace.
Guy W

AND,
can someone please confirm - the rear bumperette support strengthening panels that go inside the boot - that they bolt in place to the floor and rear skirt, rather than being welded in place?
Guy W

Guy
Could you send another picture as I'm not completely sure from what angle it's taken! I can then measure mine sometime tomorrow. The bumperette bolts on - there are holes in the boot floor and lower rear skirt. I can do a drawing with dimensions if you want.
Bill
Bill Bretherton

Guy I have no idea about frogeye bodywork but I'm very impressed by your craftsmanship.
Greybeard

Thanks Greybeard, but it probably looks better in the photos than it really is! A coat of paint hides a lot.
I am reasonably ok with folding metal but my MIG welding is a bit variable. Some of it is fine, and then the next bit is rough pigeon sh*t or full of holes. That's when the flap wheel gets its turn! It's been a slow job but getting this rear shroud sorted is the last of the shell reconstruction work. Then l am going to try some more lead loading where the screen pillars fit.
Guy W

Bill, that photo is taken looking vertically down at the small triangular area of boot floor beyond the reinforcing web at the outer near-side rear corner. To the right, the back of the inner wheel arch (A-B line) sticks out further than the floor panel, though l am not sure why, or if this is right?

I know the bumper states bolt on, but it is the support piece inside the boot. I think there is supposed to be a roughly triangular piece but not sure if it is welded or bolted in place. None of this existed at all on my shell - it had all long since rusted away!
Guy W

Looks good from here Guy
Nice work

William Revit

Guy, got it now! The A to B measurement on mine is 3 5/8" (on nearside, offside hard to get to) and the A to A measurement is close to 50 1/2" (hard to get under shell at the moment). Your 3 3/4" measurement accounts for the 1/2" extra across the shell if we allow for a 1/4" error somewhere (quite possible from my end as I was struggling with tape rule under shell!)

I don't think it matters too much as, when test fitting my wings against doors/ sills with rear deck clamped to wings, I don't think the wings were tight up against the rear part of the inner wheel arches. Even though I have a new shell I had to modify the front and upper sections of the arches extensively to get alignment, involving "cutting and shutting" and hammering as posted about on here. So I think it's a case of test fitting and accepting a compromise.

Re. the bumperette, sorry, I meant the triangular brackets are bolted on. There are three holes in the boot floor and one in the rear skirt. Moss lists them to give an idea of shape but I have two new ones (from Frogeye Spares I think), which I can measure at some stage if that helps.
Bill
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill,
That all adds up rather nicely then - certainly within the degree of tolerance that I am working to! It was more a matter of gaining confidence that I wasn't too wildly out with my home made pieces.

That step in between the rear of the wheel well and the floor section means that when I add the vertical piece that connects the floor edge down to the underside of the rear wing, on mine it will leave a tall, narrow inverted triangular hole at the front. Right behind the wheel, positioned to gather all the road crud! So that will need a blanking piece added in later.

If the bumperette supports are bolted in that is good too - it means I can leave working out the shapes until the rear bodywork is on and then dive into the bootspace with headtorch, wheatabix packet and scissors. ;-0

I've a free hour or so now to get back to welding on the rear valance extension repair bit that I made to go below the rear number plate.
Guy W

Hi Guy,

If you or anyone else can re-skin a steel boot in aluminium only to incoporate a spoiler (I'm guessing the neatest way to do this is by having a single sheet of aluminium sweep up into the spoiler with the join on the trailing edge of the spoiler) - let me know.


Daniel Stapleton

Guy

I meant to mention that project yiur working on is just beyond my imagination.... i can do repair work but to make a new panal is just a level beyound most peoples reach

That is just crazy cool...well done i am truely impressed ...i think most of us cant offer much in way of info... but we are sure going to cheer you along

Prop
1 Paper

Hi Daniel. Sorry aluminium skinning is well beyond my capabilities! I am struggling to remember names but wasn't it a Rob Thomas that was building an alloy bodied Austin 7, and also had a home-built single seater aircraft in aluminium?

Here's what I achieved today


Guy W

And after plug and seam welding, grinding back a skimming over with a metal based filler. It will need proper cleaning and finishing later when its back on the main bodyshell.


Guy W

Guy
I have to do exactly the same thing, hopefully sometime soon. Did you tack on the repair panel along the seam, then remove the rivets and plug weld through the rivet holes?

Where do you get the welding rivets by the way? Can never think of correct term for them. Great work!
Bill
Bill Bretherton

Bill,

They're called Cleco and available from various places but many options on ebay.
David Billington

I think the rivet clamps came from Frost as a kit; setting pliers and 20 clamp pins. They are pretty good for keeping parts aligned. They are spring loaded but I would have liked much stronger springs to pull panels together more tightly for plug welding.

As for that joint - I punched a row of holes through the top panel and plug welded all the way along. I then reinforced tis with short 1" lengths of weld along the seam. This was all then ground flush with a flap wheel.

My welding is still a bit rough and pin-holey so I skim over with a metal based filler to help seal it all. There is a little bit of heat buckling. Its not as bad as it looks in the photo where the flash has caught the sanded areas. And its nothing that won't finish off properly before painting. Anyway the number plate will hide the bit that is supposed to be flat.
Guy W

Thanks David, I can never remember the correct term.
Bill Bretherton

David's message reminded me - they are available from Frost but he is right, mine were E-bay ones.
Guy W

As a book for fuelling your metal working wet dreams I've had a copy of "Metal fabricator's handbook/race & custom car" by Ron Fournier ISBN 0-89586-171-2 for some 30 odd years and most information is still good today, welders improve other skills stay the same. I showed one of the technicians down the local technical college some years ago and they bought a copy for the college. Mine came from Foyles in London and the price tag shows £7.95 but well worth it. Like all books I don't mind spending money on them if the knowledge contained in them seems worth the price.
David Billington

David

That is a great book ive got that one also... there book (same publusher) on suspensions is just as good

Guy...just as a thought its time consuming but hve thougjt about ling set 2 part epoxy weld...thats what i did on mine several years ago and it did veey well i scuffed up the metal smeared the glue on and then pop rivited the panals togather for 2 days no welding at all and completely insperable ...ground the edges down and metal based filler to smooth out and i was happy my with my self

My welding skills arw okay as long as it dosnt have to be look pretty

Prop
1 Paper

Prop, l have tried adhesive in the past,- not on this project though. I didn't like it much and didn't feel l could trust it.

That photo looks a bit rough with the way light is reflecting off it. But it's actually pretty good except for those small areas with rust putting but it will clean out with some phosphoric acid.
Guy W

Guy ... i completely understand... thats why the bbs is not called midgets and cameras...haha

But its lioking great

When i glued my panals i used the loong ser stuff like 72 hours and didnt use alot between just anough to make a film and they arw inseprabale.
1 Paper

Guy, it looks fine to me. I also get variable results with MIG welding and heat buckling is a problem e.g. I welded a repair piece to the bottom of one of my doors and, despite being careful, the doorskin buckled a bit. Flat panels are the most vulnerable of course. The welded seam tends to shrink, as I understand it, however careful you are, so distorts the adjacent panel.
Bill Bretherton

Bill

Thats my problem wirh welding all the distortions...even at the lowest seting

Prop
1 Paper

Daniel, have you considered doing your boot skin, in fibre glass, or even carbon fibre.
Using your existing as a mould I reckon you will get the result are after. The built in spoiler could be made out of wooden buck or even polystyrene perhaps ?
just a thought.
try the web and look for easy composites on you tube
P Bentley

The existing boot lid and spoiler would need a lot of tidying up to be used as a mould. What I plan to do is take a mould from the aluminium boot lid for a small batch of carbon lids. I could go straight for a small batch of carbon lids but this will be a last resort.
Daniel Stapleton

A couple more dimension checks would help. I think mine work out OK but given I am compromising with a later type boot floor pan it is maybe just as well to check.

A) Measuring along the main axis centre line of the car: From the flange at the extreme rear edge of the boot floor pan forwards to the foot of the rearwards-sloping back axle hump. I get 22 3/4"

B) Diagonal lines from this same point (the rear edge of the boot floor pan) forwards to the frontmost point of the rear wing body panels at the very top of the B posts. I get 53" , +/- 1/8"

Measurements need to be on a shell with the rear shroud still off so this probably applies only to Bill amongst present company. Sorry Bill! Don't bother if its not convenient / not accessible /you can't be ar*ed.(or all 3) ;-)
Guy W

Guy, no problem, useful for me to compare dimensions.

Measurement A is 23 3/4" so another inch.
Measurement B is approximate because I've cut top of inner wing panels to allow for rear wings to fit. I'd say a good 54", bit more by the look of it.

The extra inch seems to be on my boot floor length. Note I'm away from sometime tomorrow until late Thursday in case you need more checks.
Bill
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill, that's helpful - and interesting. It would appear that my boot floor is an inch short then! I had thought it might be too long!

The later floor does have a downwards sloping section along the rear edge, just before the final flange. From the photos I have looked at I don't think it is like that on the earlier floor pans. I think it is to add rigidity to the boot floor. But if that were bent upwards to the horizontal to match the earlier style then it would add the better part of an inch to the floor length. So that's a possible option to consider.

I think I will leave it as it is for now, fit the rear shroud on and then turn the thing over and see if there is any adjustment along the rear edge to be made to get the floor and valance to meet up as they should!

Just waiting on my paint delivery so I can paint all these internal surfaces before getting the shroud to fit. Hopefully it will come tomorrow. I think everything else for this stage of the work is done now.

Guy W

Note that my boot floor measurement is to the very edge (with rule bent) including the bent down "flange" (at about 45 degrees) so it could be we're not far apart. I may have to bend my flange down a little more to match up with the lower rear when I come to weld it all together
Bill Bretherton

Are you paint spraying in winter, by the way?
Bill Bretherton

No,
The plan is more or less as you did - brush painting the inside of the boot area and then later probably do the whole underside. After that I would fit up brake lines etc and then fit the front and rear running gear so I can move it around. Timescale is to arrange to do the proper spraying in the summer weather - assuming we get some this year!

But plans are there to be revised at any time.
Guy W

Daniel,
For a fabricator for a one-off aluminium rear boot and spoiler how about trying this person:
http://bathoscars.simpl.com/shop.html

Work looks quite good to me, and he is quite near you I think (Nuneaton?)
Guy W

One small step, . . . one giant leap !

(Paint!)


GuyW

Looking good Guy! Always good to get some paint on. What did you use?
Bill Bretherton

Same as you Bill, only l had to adjust the colour from the nearest they had. That's the first coat. It's not too far off, but has dried still slightly too light, so l need to try a bit more alchemisty for the second coat!
GuyW

Well done.
Nigel Atkins

Very Nice, Guy!
Greybeard

This car is supposedly the same and correct Leaf Green that I was trying to match to. But it has involved me in mixing pigments into a base green - close, but not quite a cigar worthy colour! There is a second coat to go on so I need to make it a tad darker I think. A bit more blue pigment.


GuyW

My frogeye started life as leaf green IIRC from the heritage certificate, must get a new one sometime as it seems long lost. When I acquired the car in 1984 it was largely red, which one I don't know. I repainted it in Lancia Rossa Corsa (Corsica red I think) as that was a colour I liked most in the colour swatches at the local motor factor, an International paint supplier.
David Billington

Good colour, Guy. What a relief that you aren't hankering after the rather muddy leaf green that I remember. I think GR whatever it was might disappoint you if you managed to get a 60s pot of it.

Looking forward to seeing that frog!
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Oh dear! The problem with "One Giant Leap" is that you are likely to slip up!

Having painted that boot floor on Thursday I noticed a couple of seams that I had missed with the seam sealer. No problem, I can add a bit more U-Pol Grey Stripe before the second paint coat. Problem is that when I did so this afternoon and added sealer on top of dry paint it has reacted and puckered up. Grr! Oddly it hadn't reacted the other way around where the sealer went on first. The Grey Stripe Data Sheet claims it is "compatible with most paints". Just seemingly, not mine!

It will clean up, but its one leap forward and one step back!
GuyW

Sorry to hear that Guy but, as posted previously, I found that cellulose applied over Rustoleum combicolor (where there was an unintentional run) caused a reaction. So maybe some solvent in the U-Pol is causing a reaction? Once the seam sealer has cured then, presumably, the solvent(s) have evaporated meaning it is fine to overcoat it but maybe it can't, itself, be applied over certain paints. Damned annoying though.

N.B. I've applied seam sealer (not UPOL, think it was Granville) over high build cellulose primer without issue.
Bill Bretherton

Yes Bill, I think that was it. The U-pol solvent must be a cellulose of some sort. All corrected now so it wasn't too traumatic, - just annoying. Rustoleum goes over the seam sealer without a problem, but cannot be applied the other way round.

Any progress on your?
GuyW

I'm afraid I haven't touched mine for a while. We're both now retired and have been catching up on various trips we promised ourselves, that we can now do more cheaply in term-time (both worked in education). Also have recently re-fitted ensuite shower, with modified plumbing, due to leak problem, with floor still to do.
However, hoping to work on car some days in next few weeks. My target was to finish this summer but I can't see it happening. I still have the front to renovate. Most mechanical parts are ready to be fitted. But the rear end fitting is taking much longer than I expected. If only I could work on the car full-time........
Bill Bretherton

Bill l suspect the only people who can work on them full time, or anything near that, are professional restorers doing it for a living!

One of the advantages of being retired is that you control how you split your time. The real goal is to end up enjoying all of the "interruptions" and not resenting any of it.

I spent 2 full years on major house extension for my daughter and then several extended sessions on a full renovation of my son's flat in Edinburgh. All good and worthwhile, enjoy the work and being with those l value most. I also spend a lot of time with my granddaughters, 3 or 4 full days each week. And then there's the garden, . . .

As a result the frilly frog was getting no attention at all, so my current strategy is to do something on it every day. Even a half hour checking and measuring feels like progress! An hour a day is a full day per week. Work in a couple more half days and there is scope for some real achievement. :-)

GuyW

It does often seem to take ages just to do what seems a simple task e.g. the two rear wing beadings took about a day, then forming repair pieces for the rear deck edges maybe another day etc. Soon a month has passed by and you wonder what you did! I find welding takes forever, especially when I've to re-do a section. Still there is that sense of achievement and the anticipation of actually finishing some time in the future.
Bill Bretherton

like eating an elephant
GuyW

Big day today! Offered up the rear body shroud into position today. Very tricky! Like all these operations it needed repeated fitting and removing for adjustment then refitting several times over. Not quite there yet, it still needs some fine tuning but at least it goes on, fits where it should and is looking good!

Considering this consists of 2 patch repaired rear wing sections, the centre piece recovered from a different car, a DIY rear valance section and new wing beads all cleaned up and welded into a single unit it is somewhat surprising to me that it fits at all!
GuyW

Can we have a photo please Guy?
Greybeard

Not yet Rod! And to be honest it looks like the back end of any Frog. Only worse as the panels are a mix of steel, surface rusted steel, primer and old paint. Quite a mess!

And it will remain that way for a good while yet as once this shroud is adjusted and welded, then it goes back on the rotiserrie and I will be treating, prepping and painting the underside so I can fit the running gear and get it onto its own wheels before returning to the top bodywork. The "PLAN" is that b then it will be summer time and ready for a bit of paint spraying.
GuyW

Well done Guy, you're ahead of me!
W Bretherton

Here you go Rod, just for you!


GuyW

And


GuyW

And #3
As you can see, it needs cleaning up a bit still!


GuyW

The sections appear to be very neatly put together. The home brew valance looks great to me, although I don't know much about Frog body shape.

Well done Guy.

Incidentally I remember seeing one years ago that had the back section hinged. Anyone else remember it? It too was BRG and had the same catches as a Triumph bonnet either side, plus I'm fairly sure there was a kind of cubby hole storage arrangement behind the seats.

I imagine there must have been an added support structure under it but I don't remember what. I just remember Dad being impressed with it.

It was at custom car show in Birmingham (I think) that my dad took me to sometime in the late 60s.

Not that I'm suggesting it - I like what you've done so far. Thanks for the looksee.
Greybeard

A Sunday morning dimension request.

Having got the rear clip in position, and now partly welded on, I will soon need to trim my rear valance to a finished dimension. When I made the valance piece I made it deeper than required - at least I hope I did! It now extends down below the floor level at the back by more than the normal 5/8" flange, which I think is correct, but I think needs trimming back a bit.

So the measurement that I am looking for is:
from the lower edge of the number plate platform, down the curve to the bottom edge of the valance. One measure, centre line will do, as photo.




GuyW

This dimension will be useful for me also. I assume that the "finished" lower edge corresponds at each side with the turn in the rear wings as indicated by my finger in the picture (with the welded edge to the floor below this.


W Bretherton

If no one else comes up with the dimension then I'll pop out to the shed in the morning and have a look at mine. I'm pretty sure the centre section of my rear shroud is sound there, apart from the spot weld drill holes. It's currently dark and cold here so I'm not going to have a look now.
David Billington

Thanks David.

Bill, yes I think the valance extends down to that point at either side, but I have an idea that the edge of the valance then curves upwards and rear wards slightly just inboard of the bottom of the rear wings. Then extends pretty well straight across parallel to the bottom of the number plate recess.
GuyW

Guy, this probably doesn't help much but it's the best shot of the rear underside of my original shell I could find (the basic shell has gone now). Hopefully we'll get more pictures as I've also wondered about the dimensions/ shape around the rear. I wish I'd taken more notes from the original (you never do of course) but it was pretty rusted around there as you can see.


W Bretherton

Shroud dimension in image


David Billington

Excellent David. Thanks!
From that, I have about 30mm surplus to trim off. Bearing in mind I made the valance patching panel intentionally too wide, this makes sense and in relation to where the floor flange extends down to it will look right.
GuyW

Thanks from me too. That looks to be 3 1/16" to the curve inwards. I assume that the flange on the edge of the boot floor should fold vertically downwards then, or at an angle consistent with the angle of the valance. Or does it slightly fold outwards where it is welded?
W Bretherton

William,

I would have said when I took the pic that it's 3" to the start of the angled surround part of the number plate recess at the end of the radius if that makes sense but then I doubt 1/16" is going to make much difference. I can try and get a side profile shot tomorrow but the lower edge does tuck under and bend towards the front of the car, it's not vertical.

I just tried an ASCII art attempt of the rear edge boot floor profile but the BBS kept converting a back slash to a forward slash so I've deleted it and get a shot tomorrow.

Much of that area on mine was in surprising good shape and considering it cost £50 in 1984, it mainly needed that lower part of the lip replacing, sections further out weren't so good.
David Billington

Having said I need to trim 30mm off, of course all of the dimensions were originally drafted in Imperial. So I will take it that dimension on mine needs to be reduced from its current 4 1/8" to David's 3"

The other thing, my rear valance curves well forwards at the base so where it is in contact with the floor edge flange, the flange is probably at about 30+ degrees pointing forwards. No guarantee this is correct as I shaped the curve of the valance myself, but it matches the curve of the bottom of the rear portions of the rear wings. The floor flange initially was about vertical, but I have dressed it forwards to match my valance and it looks right to me. I am happy with that.
GuyW

Thanks David and Guy, that's very useful information.
W Bretherton

Rear shroud side on showing angle


David Billington

Thanks David, that indicates I'll have to bend my boot edge flange a fair bit. It currently bends downwards at about 45° from the horizontal.
W Bretherton

Missed this topic. But you know I can't resist half an hour's measuring.

This is taken at the middle of the car, and put on a centimetre grid. PDF available, if you can't read this clearly.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thanks Nick. Very scientific! Its amazing what presentation on a graph paper background does for it. Should have been imperial, of course, so there is still room for improvement.

The rear skirt is already trimmed to length and all welded up to the rear floor flange now. Its more like your drawing with the skirt going through almost a full 90 degrees of curve. That's rather than as in David's photo where it doesn't appear to curve in quite as much. I thought perhaps his had flattened out a bit when the spot welds were drilled out.

I'm not sure which is correct but I am happy with what I have done as it looks right and as if it was supposed to be like that.

GuyW

OK, another one.

This is where I am up to:
I have refitted the full rear shroud welded in position, all welded up but still without the infill pieces that connect the sides of the floor to the lower rear wings. Without these bits connected, the lower parts of the rear wings just behind the wheels can be moved in and out by a couple of inches so there is potential for adjustment - and the possibility of getting it wrong!

I need to know where the bottom of the rear wings should align in relation to the side profile of the car. Looking at book photos the side of the rear wheel arch on a Frog looks very flat in most shots, but in others the bodywork seems to curve inwards a bit at the bottom, behind the wheels. I mean in the vertical plane, not as it obviously does curve inwards towards the lights.

A helpful check would be if someone could place a straight edge down the side of the car along the lower face of the sill so it extends back across the wheel well to the back of the arch. Does this then intersect with the pointy bit of the rear wing, behind the wheel? Or if not, then how much is the horizontal offset from the straight edge to the wing at that point?

Complicated to describe! Put simply, is the car narrower at the bottom of the rear wing, immediately behind the rear wheel than between the sills just in front of the wheel?
GuyW

I did this in 2009, Guy. Can it possibly have been that long?

Here's the method. But what was the dimension? I shall find it.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

I'll do it again tomorrow.
Anything else, while I'm there?


Nick and Cherry Scoop

That is exactly it Nick! Well interpreted! I did find it quite difficult to explain, so why I didn't just take a photo like that I don't know!

From your photos it is apparent that there is a little inwards curvature towards the bottom, though not much. Looks to me like about 1/2" in your photo. About the same as the width of the arch flange itself. Mine is currently 1,1/4" in the "relaxed" position but will easily be moved out a bit.
GuyW

I am also struggling to work out how the flat vertical inner panel to the rear of the wheel arch blends into the curve of the inner wheel arch itself. A photo or two might help.

The problem is that none of this existed any more on my car when I got it; long since consumed by rust. I have refabricated the inner wheel arch (both sections) which now ends about 1" below the level of the boot floor, which I think is correct. But at that point the boot floor doesn't extend right out to meet the outer wing so the vertical panel cannot join both the boot floor and the flange of the outer wing at the top. Its going to need some sort of bridging piece to close the gap in that area but I cannot work out how this is achieved.
GuyW

Guy, the dimension is 20mm.

Turning to your other queries, I've taken a number of pictures, and maybe you can tell me where you need more, or closer.

Panning the nearside inner arch from the front:-


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Next . . .


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Three . . .


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Four, from underneath looking outward. The downstand is about 20mm.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Five, moving further back and shooting diag forward.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Six, boot general view . .


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Seven - perversely, I've now moved to the offside for this - a shot straight down between the vertical bit at the edge of the boot floor with triangular holes in it (you'll tell me what its proper name is) and the outer wing


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Eight, the same shot looking forward to the wheel arch


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thanks for all of that Nick. Very useful!

Shot #5 is the clue. (only my bonnet is in a different location!) It does confirm the triangular web piece that extends the rear margin of the wheel well downwards and joins it to the forward facing lip of the vertical inner panel behind the lower rear wing. That's much as I thought.

Where I was going wrong was in making that vertical panel extend forwards to the lip of the wheel arch itself. In your photo it doesn't do that. If it is extended forwards in creates a chute through from the lip of the wheel arch into the void behind the lower rear wing which isn't exactly ideal!

I need to go and recut my pieces of cardboard!
GuyW

Good. Anything else you want, I shall be under there for quite a lot of days yet.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

I think its Ok, thanks Nick. I was going to ask how wide the bit that I have been referring to as a triangular infill piece is at the top. But I have since realised it is actually the lower end of the outer section of the wheel well, which is supposed to extend right down to the bottom of the rear outer wing. So the width at the top is the width of that outer arch piece.

Had I lashed out and bought a replacement arch at £200 a go instead of making one, I would have realised this! I made a new outer wheel well section but finished it at the back in line with the floor. Now I see how it is supposed to be I just have another piece to make and add on at the back.
GuyW

Guy, how did you put a forever finish inside the hollow strengthening plinth that runs around the inner wheel arch in the boot? There's obviously an inaccessible interior space when the boot floor is in place, as shown in your very first picture on this thread.

For me it would have to be drilling, spraying and plugging. But, what to spray?
Nick and Cherry Scoop

The snake bits? I painted the backs with zinc paint before assembly.Some of that will have burnt off when welding - but not all of it hopefully! As you say, once its all in place there is no ready access. My intention is to do as you suggest and drill one or more holes and inject with waxoyl. Then plug them.
GuyW

Good. I've got some of that Bilt-Hamber stuff that claims to be better than Waxoyl, but I suppose any of them will do the job in an undisturbed void.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Yes Nick, I was using the name waxoyl in the generic sense, as one would say hoover. (Hence the use of lower case letters). Any of the various cavity wax treatments would work; I haven't decided which I will actually use. I do like the Bilt-Hamber products though so may also use their version.
GuyW

Another dimension check please.
Anyone?

What is the distance between the two pointy bits on the rear frogeye wheel arch.

Length a to b on the drawing.
Please


GuyW

Hello Guy
23 & 5/8 " or 60cm
Off my Frog, Just measured it.
Bob



R C Skerritt

Thanks Bob,
I am repairing the rear lower wings with patch panels. I have done one side, using a card template of the wheel arch that I made before trimming off the old rusted remnants. I should have checked first as I have ended up with that one at 24". So from your dimension t is about 3/8" too wide. Given it is all welded up I think I will just have to accept it.

Decision is now whether to make the other side match at 24", or make it to the correct dimension of 23 & 5/8". I don't suppose one could actually spot the difference, at least on a casual inspection.
GuyW

I think that anyone would have to look very hard to see it. The only question is can you live with it yourself? I find that if I know something is not quite right it draws me to it, but I can be ignorant of a minor discrepancy for years not noticing it!
Whats 3/8" in the scheme of things, given the task youve set yourself, its not as if its crucial to the driveability or safety of the car.
R C Skerritt

there's also the added bonus that one cannot see both sides of the car at the same time!
davidsmith

I had similar problems to resolve, my shell was like a lace curtain, all except the floors - strangely! The transmission tunnel had been hacked to pieces at some time, I surmise in an attempt to accomodate an alien gearbox.


R C Skerritt

Thanks for the comments - I am still considering what to do!
As I have found from experience, a slight discrepancy at one point that one thinks is acceptable works out fine. But then some time later when doing something apparently not related you find that either there is a knock-on effect and something else that does matter won't now fit. Or worse, that slight and inconsequential discrepancy was in fact the manifestation of something already fitted wrongly that does matter - and cannot now be easily corrected.

I am trying to convince myself that 3/8" difference between my drastically rebuilt car and Bob's measurement of his (original?) car is "within manufacturing tolerance". It's after all only 3/16" difference in the round wheel arch radius isn't it!

I think I am close enough at that and will just do the other side the same.
GuyW

MDF templates were taken of all panel repair areas before cutting steel.
R C Skerritt

My problem with bits like this is that there was nothing there to take templates from. I made some card templates as best I could but probably not as accurate as yours.

The rear bodywork had sagged as a PO started to make a boot opening and had cut a large hole in the boot shroud. This had caused the wheel arches to spread rearwards so that they weren't of a consistent radius. The rusting was very bad in this area. There is no part of the car in this photo of the n/side rear wheel well that hasn't now been replaced.


GuyW

I can't resist it! I'm going out there now, to measure; I know mine's original, though the layers of paint may have to be calculated.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

I know for a fact that these arches haven't been altered in the last 57 years. However, the dims I'm getting are:-

Nearside 23 11/16"
Offside 24 1/4"

So a difference of over half an inch. Good old Pressed Steel Bodies, or whoever it was.

BTW, you were talking about the point at the bottom of the sill, weren't you?
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Yes Nick, I was.
But that now suggests mine - or the one already done - is OK at 24" Pretty well spot on between your two choices. Or I guess more to the point there was a factory "tolerance" of somewhere around + or - 1/4" on 24".

Bob's is not original, but probably also within or at least very close to the tolerance figure as well. At least I don't imagine that he will feel inclined to adjust it!

I think the main thing is that being a round wheel arched car, that the wheel arch looks round. That should be a good enough criteria for success I think.

Many thanks.
GuyW

Just caught up with this after my travels. My wings are still off the car. One is new and the other was bought several years ago (possibly an Austin Rover one). Anyway, after measuring twice I get 25 1/2" and 25 3/4", I kid you not.

So either they're both incorrectly made or it doesn't matter anyway. I have test fitted against the bodyshell (and modified inner wheel arches) and they're fine. So I'll have wider wheel arches then!

Bill
W Bretherton

That is certainly very odd. I could believe a manufacturing variation of 1/2" or so but that is a full 2" greater than Bob's measurement. I wonder if there was a design change then. I will need to go and read my Horler.



GuyW

Ah, just a minute Bill, are you measuring the same thing if your wings are off the car?
The measurement is the horizontal distance across the wheel arch between the two pointy bits. i.e. the rearmost point on the lower edge of the outer sill across to the front end of the lower rear wing panel, behind the wheel.

If you are measuring off the car you are probably just measuring a sloping line across from where the wing would sit on top of the sill. For mine, that comes out at 25 & 1/4"
GuyW

Oops, you're right Guy. In that case it'll be about an inch less although I can't be sure until I test fit the shroud of course. Bet it'll be over 24", looking at my sills, which makes sense as your 25 1/4" measurement is less than my equivalent measurement. So I would have thought that 24" lower sill to rear of wing was ok.
W Bretherton

Right - first thing tomorrow I will have to take Bill's measurement. Just in case it's the sills that are giving me the half-inch difference.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

OK,
we now have a modification to the drawing such that:

a - b is between the rearmost point of the lower edge of the sill, and the pointy bit of the lower wing behind the wheel

And,
c - b is between the upper edge of the sill where it joins to the rear wing in front of the wheel, and point b (as above)


GuyW

Nearside 25 1/4"
Offside 25 3/8"

It's the sills!!
Nick and Cherry Scoop

So mine are about 1/4" more than yours Nick. I'm happy with that.

Bill
W Bretherton

Looking through the PO's diary to try and find out what those setscrews might be, came across these entries for 1964.


22/2/64 25,900 Accident. Check wheel hubs, brakes, oils, greasing, adjust brakes and general 1000 mile check.

Greased hubs and vehicle checked over steering mechanically after accident, suspension, steering etc. Puncture in nearside tyre.

31/3/64 27,469 Body repairs after accident. Certain work unsatisfactory.

14/4/64 Car returned to have bodywork rectified.

27/4/64 27,469 Engine, gearbox, rear axle levels checked.
All other checks as per normal, 1000 miles, and completion of 24,000 mile check after winter.
Car thoroughly checked, nuts, bolts, front and rear suspension, underneath painting and re-undersealing as necessary.


So Cherry isn't quite as unmolested bodywise as I've been boasting.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

So I wonder if those screws were a system to pull dents out of the rear floorpan? Or maybe to fix some sort of alignment checking device to?

The accident cannot have been anything serious. From those records Cherry did over 1500 miles during March 1964 after the accident and before the repairs were carried out. That's quite a high mileage in 5 weeks in late winter for a "damaged" car.
GuyW

the threaded bits with flat disc heads look like the same studs that the fuel tank hangs on, and are designed to be fitted at manufacture. It would be quite difficult to fit them later I would have thought.
davidsmith

sorry Guy, the threads have become crossed (pun intentional) so I'll repost in Nick's thread...
davidsmith

A case of converging topics, David!
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 01/01/2017 and 10/02/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.