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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Front brake alignment

Dear midget friends,

I have a strange problem with the front brakes of my Lenham Sprite project. After changing the wheel bearings I fitted new front calipers and the are slightly out of the center now. Is it because of a bad bearing? Does anyone have an idea?? the picture shows the problem, or does“t it matter?
Thank you very much

all the best


TvK von Kreisler

I would suggest that your wheel bearings do not have a sufficient radius to allow the inner bearing to sit fully home on the stub axle... There is lots of information in the archives about wheel bearings!

Your discs look pretty shot too...
James B

That is a possibility James but there could be others.

Has the disk been seate correctly with the hub?
Is the otherside the same as this.

Have you tried with the old caliper

ETC

It possibly is as described however but just to check is the widest gap between the caliper and the disk towards the hub? If that were NOT the case then it will not be the bearing?

Where did you get the bearing kit from and what numbers were on the bearings?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Thank you for the quick response,
yes the disc sits perfect on the hub. The other side is similar but a little better. The bearings are from a german supplier so I think they came from Moss and in the end I am pretty shire they are made in china...
Could it be that the bearings are of such a bad quality?
Any ideas?
Thank you
TvK von Kreisler

Hi TVK

It is not a case of bad bearings it is a case of buying bearings that are the wrong specification.
The chinese are more than capable of making bearing to high quality as do the UK and Japan, however they are made to a certain specification and the numbers on the bearings will tell what spec they are made to.

With the wheel fitted is there any play in the wheel bearings, if not then it is unlikely that the bearings will be the wrong specification?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi Bob,

no I think there is no play, I bought the bearings as a set from my local MG dealer. Do you think I can live with the misalignment? The new brake pads will just fit with no backplates?
TvK von Kreisler

It is my opinion that the seating of the bearing hard against the hub is not too critical. However others believe that it could lead to stub axle failure which I have never experienced so it is your choice?

Personally I would ask the supplier to look at another kit and get the numbers from the bearings. If they are the cheap incorrectly spec replacements supplied by many then I would ask them to take the bearings back and get a refund.

I would then buy an alternative.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Sounds like a wheel bearing issue. There is some really helpful advice on the web regarding this problem. www.mgexperience.net/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings

The Quinton Hazell kit QWB 105C apparently discontinued at the end of 2010 contains the original specification bearings. There appears to be quite a few NOS kits still around.
Bob Beaumont

when i put KAD 4 pot claipers on my midget they were slightly off centre, you mentioned new calipers ? it was a while ago i did this, but i know from talking to the boys at KAD the suggetsion was to space the caliper, and as such they knew of the issue and sent me a pait of shims, and so it cured the alignment.

Im not saying this is the answer but, is the very small amount of 'off centre' that critical, so more of a question i guess
p bentley

Off centre with different calipers is less of an issue and to a degree to be expected with modifications - I agree shimming makes sense in those circumstances, but on the standard set up I would submit that further investigation is required because it suggests something has gone wrong in the set up - likely to be an incorrect bearing set up as discussed, but quite possibly due to another problem which (as we are talking about front wheels, therefore steering and braking) needs to be identified

JB
James Bilsland

Plus of course,if it is the inner bearing not seating up snug because of the mis-matched radius issue, then the hub and disc is too far out in relation to the caliper already. Adding shims to the caliper can only worsen the alignment, not improve it.
Guy

As regards QWB105C, I rang about a dozen suppliers, and nobody has them.

I rang Stockwell motors, and at first they said they had ONE, left on the shelf, but when they looked they couldn't find it. Then they said they could supply an equivalent, by Truepart, again only one though. But is it an EXACT equivalent? They can of course supply modern equivalents, but that's the problem, they don't fit properly.

I think you'll be lucky now to find old QWB105C's lying around. No doubt there must be some left on the planet.

Question is, where?
Lawrence Slater

I am not sure about Truepart I do know that Powertrain did them as well as Motaquip and Moprod. I may pop into Stockwells as they are on my way home.
Bob Beaumont

I am not sure about Truepart I do know that Powertrain did them as well as Motaquip, Automotive Bearings and Moprod. I may pop into Stockwells as they are on my way home. Of course the chap at Ransom and Marles has them but they are £120 per set plus VAT and postage!
Bob Beaumont

He is not Ransomes and Marles. !!!

They no longer exist and the people who own the rights and grew from that business are NSK.
Bob Turbo Midget England

So what is the bloke that "calls" himself R&M selling then, if not the correct bearing?

Just looked at the R&M website, and it claims to have been founded in 1900. What's the truth if this is not R&M?
Lawrence Slater

Many apologies but a chap called Graham Naughton trading as Ransomes and Marles Bearings is suppling NOS bearings. He appears to have a quantity of the original bearings and quoted me the prices. I acknowledge RHP was purchased by NSK.
Bob Beaumont

Hi Lawrence it is very clever use of information to quote from the website

""Founded in Newark, UK, in 1900, Ransome and Marles, or R & M Bearings as many people know it, soon became the leading British manufacturer of Ball and Roller bearings. Their reputation for quality gained them world-wide acceptance in Aerospace, Defence and precision engineering environments.
"When you need a Ransome & Marles Bearing you need us."

Notice the use of the words "Their" "them" and not us!!



""R & M specialised in the production of large bore Imperial Ball and Roll bearings, often manufactured with a Brass Cage as standard. Bore sizes exceeded 12 inches in many ranges and the manufacture of Customer Specials produced still bigger sizes. Click HERE to see just some of the Ransome & Marles Bearings that are available. Do not worry if your particular size is not listed-the parts list shown is not exhaustive and there are many more designations available""

As I understand the situation at he moment is that NSK are looking into this matter and are likely to take what action they can, if any?

The gentleman in question sells NOS bearings that he can find (not only Spridget bearings) and when the supply runs out he will do as many companies do which is to modify existing bearings to original specifications. In this case it is a matter of buying some cheap everyday 20 degree bearings and having them machined o be face adjusted and bigger radius' machined on them. The question is has the extra machining being done? who knows? I can only assume it has!

It is very clever marketing as if fools thousands including yourself Lawrence. (not easy?)

IMO there are far better options than these. However from time to time we do seem to hear of original bearings cropping up both from R and M and also RHP who were R and M and later became NSK

I just wonder why he does not simply explain this?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi Bob,(Robert),

I decided to ring "Ransomme and Marles", and it turns out that it is Orinoco bearings, who also specialise in the supply of obsolete bearings amongst other things.

The chap I spoke to explained to me that he had bought a quantity of R&M bearings, and so perhaps cheekily, he advertises them as such. Confusing I guess, but I have to say I'm not really bothered if that upsets the owners of the RM marque.

Anyway, the new old stock he is selling, is genuine unmodified 20 degree RHP.

Inner bearing 34/LJT 25 (bearing with brass cage)
Outer bearing. 3/MJT 17 (bearing with brass cage)

And as Bob says, £125 quid plus Vat, Plus postage, per side. Although I'm sure he'd combine postage for both sides.

So although far more expensive than they used to be, they are the real deal, and given how long they last once fitted, should be seen in that light.

No doubt there must be more NOS laying around somewhere, but finding it is getting to be more and more of a problem. Once Orinoco bearings (so called R&M), exhaust their stock, if other stock can't be found, the only option will be the NSK 40 degree bearings, or have them made which will be even more expensive.

It seems to me then, that if the New "new stock" NSK 40 degree bearings, are as good as the original NOS 20 degree RHP bearings, and are the same(similar) price, I don't think it matters much what you buy does it, as long as you don't buy the cheap copies that Rob describes.



Lawrence Slater

Thanks Lawrence for ringing and the clarification . I wondered if was going batty! I think there is some NOS around, just needs a bit of searching. There was a set of genuine brass caged R&M bearings on Ebay that went for £7.50 just recently. I see there is an old school Unipart outer currently on BIN for £14.95.

Properly greased and maintained they should, as you say, give years of service especially if the car is not the daily driver. Just be careful removing the hub to avoid damaging the inner bearing when changing the Disc!

Perhaps Beaulieu at the weekend will yield some!
Bob Beaumont

What's BIN bob?
Lawrence Slater

Sorry Lawrence Buy it Now! Ebay ref 140713745453

Bob
Bob Beaumont

For Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo. The seating of the inner bearing flush against the shoulder of the hub is critical! Not for stub axle strength so much as to register the position of the hub in realation to the brake caliper. Any distance between the bearing and the shoulder pushes the brake rotor out of center for the caliper. The key is the radius on the inner bearing has to match or be larger than the radius of the spindle to shoulder filet. This has all been covered many times in the past, but that much is true!
If it doesn't fit flush and free when the axle nut is tightened down with the spacer installed you'll force the bearing to expand and sieze on the spindle which can lead to bearing failure in use or at the very least a bearing that pulls apart when you try to remove the hub. If the radius is correct the whole assembly should slide right off the spindle when the retaining nut is removed.
B Young

Bill firstly I was the person (contrary to some articles written elsewhere) that supplied the original drawings describing the spec of this bearing set up so I am well aware of the potential for this bearing to sit incorrectly with the hub.

As you have correctly identified if that is the case then the disk ought to be out of alignment with the caliper, in this case that appears to be a possibility however in THOUSANDS of others that is not the case and thus it must be assumed that the normal (Standard) tolerances are more than adequate.

For 30 years my car has run with bearings that have the potential to sit incorrectly against the hub with a failure of the axle. I can garenttee you that many hundreds of Spridgets, Morris Minors and other BMC vehicles have also fitted bearings with this possibilty again I have not heard of any in general use that have had an axle failure

Because of this I have stated that the fit to the hub is not critical otherwise we would be recording daily of Spridget and other BMC cars suffering stub axle failure, but we don't.

What we do hear however is that when new bearings are fitted the wheels still have bearing play in them, and that is the issue!

I have suggested solutions to this problem as have others however as we speak here the only solutions that make sense are 2

1 Find a set of NOS original bearings
2 Buy a set of modern 40 degree face adjusted bearings and if these will not sit against the hub then a 1mm shim can be fitted to the inside of the stub axle, this will sort any issues with this set up

Of course this is IMO!

Bill I understood that you were in favour of fitting tapers?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I do like tapered rollers for my application as they have a greater load rating in side force and I run wide tires on 7" wide rims. I am not against the ball type thrust bearings, run them on my Lotus without any problem at all. As you say, if the bearing is the correct face adjusted type it should place the disc within the notch in the caliper with up to a 1mm distance between the bearing and the shoulder, but the disc is also offset 1mm and in my case a bit more than that and I had to remove the anti rattle plate and sand the pad on one side to get a new set of pads installed with new Brembo rotors. Personally I'd rather have the disc correctly centered by having the correct bearing fit and not have to worry about modifying the pads or such.
B Young

Ah thanks Bob, so that's what BIN means. I was as confused as David Cameron, with LOL. :)

I agree with Robert on this. Until I read all the research on the problem with modern equivalent bearings, I'd never heard of a front axle snapping off. It may well have happened, but it must be a pretty scarce event, -- at least outside of racing circles --, and a shim could sort the problem of strength anyway.

If fitting a new modern bearing does give you the problem of the hub having been moved outwards, and hence the disc not running central in the brake caliper, as in TVK's picture below, it could be sorted as follows.

If the disc does actually scuffs the caliper, this can be fixed by removing a small amount of metal from the mounting surface of the caliper, hance moving the caliper out by the same amount as the hub, relative to the stub axle.

See my picture below.
I could remove at least 1.5mm on these old calipers before getting to the cast surface, but less than 1mm would easily be enough to allow the disc to clear the caliper.






Lawrence Slater

Here's another thought about these front wheel bearings.

In the distant past, I used to only replace the outer bearing, as that's the one that wears the most. But then as the kits containing both inner and outer and oil seal were so cheap, in fact cheaper than buying the bearings and oil seal seperately, I changed both, when I only really needed to change one, -- the outer.

I wonder if one of the new cheaper equivalent outer bearings, combined with an original pre-existing inner bearing, would in fact fix most problems, and of course then resolve the problem of the 2mm radius since the inner wouldn't be replaced.

Ah you say, but the new equivalent bearing is not face adjusted. True, but the old existing inner would be. Hence there would be less of a problem, and may be so much less, that there is no play at all.

You can buy the outers from leacys and others.

Just a thought.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 15/05/2012 and 18/05/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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