MG Midget and Sprite Technical Front w/bearings. Sorry I can't reactivate. BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Front w/bearings. Sorry I can't reactivate.

I Thought I'd reactive a previous thread on this, but for some reason beyond me, it doesn't work. Anyway, I spoke with Sussex Classic MG Car Parts about the issues with front wheel bearings. I was told they have been supplying the same front wheel bearings for 7 years, including to the racing fraternity, and have had no returns or negative feedback about the bearings. They are made in europe. If that's the case, then you can do both sides for less than £26 including VAT postage. Does anyone have experience of these bearings that would like to confirm or refute? Otherwise this seems the place to buy front wheel bearings.

Lawrence Slater

Thanks Lawrence I don't have any experience of their bearings but have now managed to source 7 sets of the original RHP bearings.

Bob Beaumont

Blimey, for profit, or do you expect to get through them yourself? They'd sell well on Ebay I reckon. :)

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence Simply ask them what numbers the bearing are and that will tell you everything I would very much doubt the bearings were made in Europe? these simple bearings are normally produced in Japan or far east. Strange how people try to give credibility to products by stating country of origin? In todays world that is meaningless, most countries are more than capable of manufacturing to high standars, however when price is required to be low then 3rd world countries tend to win the orders purely due to labour costs.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I'll keep a couple for my own use and let the rest go. One of the sets have the original brass cages but the remainder are all resin cages with the narrower outer race for the outer bearing. Four of the sets are Quinton Hazell one set from powertrain (?) and 2 original Unipart. Also sourced an extra outer. They are all stamped RHP and have the correct numbers. it was the result around a trawl of south london motor factors over the last month. Not suprisingly they were glad to get them off the shelf!I was offered all sorts of equivalents but as Bob says they did not have the correct numbers so I left well alone. I guess they may be ok for moggie minors which have drum brakes where the location of the hub is not so critical as with disc braked cars. Happy to help out if anyone is really stuck

Bob Beaumont

Robert With the almost 20% increase in labour costs (read carefully not worker pay) each year china and other far east counties are getting expensive fast! Add to that the big increase in shipping cost (due to the increase in fuel prices) making where you sell starts to make more sense each year. There are several Dutch companies who have moved back (part)of their production capacities. For now these are the smaller companies who have not invested in their own factories there but that is just a matter of time. So for now you might have a point but in the next 5 to 10 years there is going to be a big shift to producing where you sell. And that is all before they to get the problem of an ageing people (one child had to go wrong somewhere)

Onno K

I have no doubt the bearings currently being sold by sussex, are not RHP. Not at that price that's for certain. However, is it just possible that they are getting a supply of bearings, that do actually meet the specifications of the original rhps, or that otherwise fit properly, without problems? Hence my question was, can anyone refute the claim by sussex, that in 7 years of supply, they have had no returns, or questions regarding the fit of the bearings they have supplied? Clearly there are some dodgy bearings out there, but maybe those supplied by sussex are good ones. If they are, it's worth knowing about it. Fortunately for me, I don't need to buy any from sussex or anywhere, and therefore I'm not in a postion to test the veracity of their claim. Like Bob, I've managed to get some NOS RHP originals. Unipart in my case. The hubs on my car have good rhps in them, and I have a spare set of hubs with good rhps in them too, so I won't need any more in my lifetime. In my conversation with sussex, I was very specific with my questions. Now sussex have as far as I'm aware, a very good reputation, so I find it hard to believe that I was lied to or deliberately misled. People have bought dodgy bearings, but for some reason are reluctant to say who they bought them from. That's a shame in my view. Because all suppliers are getting to some extent, tarred with the same brush as far as poorly fitting front wheel bearings are concerned. So if anyone has bought and fitted some front wheel bearing from sussex, could they post the outcome here? It's in everyones interest, esp as these are very reasonably priced.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence I can assure you that there are at present no bearings that are suitable for this application that are cheap. The bearings that can be supplied today are the same as the original bearings (20 degree deep grove) but are NOT face adjusted as were the originals. This is the problem for us in the UK, the issue of the inner radius has simply complicated what was a straightforward issue!!!!"! Over the last few years many of these wrong spec bearing kits have been fitted and many have been complained about due to play in the front wheel!!"! This is caused because the bearings are NOT FACE ADJUSTED. However I have yet to hear or indeed experience any issues with disk alignment!!!! Our friends across the water for some reason found a situation where the disk alignment was so far out the disk hit the caliper??? That is a long way out and CAN NOT be accounted for by the inner radius issue? There MUST have been another reason! I supplied original drawings for these bearings and it is noted on these that the inner radius of the inner bearing should be no less than 2mm. That does not mean the the fillet radius of the stub axle is 2mm but it actually means that the fillet radius is LESS THAN 2mm. Thus a normal bearing manufactured to modern specification would have a fillet radius of MORE THAN 1mm thus the maximum out of alignment can only be 1mm. That would be hardly noticable. What is noticable of course is the play in the front wheel bearing due to not face adjustment which is what ALL europeans moan about!! There are suitable bearings on the market that I have fitted that address the face adjustment issue but do not neccessarily have the right tollerance to suit the stub axle. The ones fitted to my car were not an issue nor were others I have fitted or heard of but such is life. Again let me make the point it is not poor quality it is wrong spec. Here is a link http://goo.gl/uXY15 to an article that I had written a number of years ago describing the problem and giving a solution. The solution was to use a modern deep grove bearings. I have yet to get full details of the fillet issue before I put that into the public domain. I am at present trying to find as many stub axles to measure as possible.

Bob Turbo Midget England

Bob are you going to MG Silverstone? I could bring a large box of stub axles for you to measure....

David Smith

I'd much rather know if Bob Beaumont is going and for what price he is willing to part with one of the sets of NOS RHP bearings.....

Onno K

Hi Bob turbo. Yup, I've read all you and others have written on this subject, I've digested it and understand it fully. However, sussex are saying that they have supplied front wheel bearings for 7 years+ without issue or return Are you saying, that you know that what sussex is saying, is not true? If not, and if nobody else has any knowledge of the sussex bearings not fitting properly, then maybe there is a manufacturer making the bearings to the correct spec, and sussex are supplying them -- cheap. As for the stub axle measurement, what measurements do you want? I'll measure mine (I have four -2 pair), and will post the measurements here if you like. Yup me too, I would like to know how much Bob is selling his NOS rhps for, as I might part with a set of my own (I've just sourced another set). :)

Lawrence Slater

<<maybe there is a manufacturer making the bearings to the correct spec, and sussex are supplying them -- cheap>> I find that hard to believe. << sussex are saying that they have supplied front wheel bearings for 7 years+ without issue or return>> How many times have you returned a poor quality/faulty item to a retailer only to be told "no-one else has complained about them"? I have not had any dealings with Sussex, nor any experience of their bearings, but I'd be amazed to find that they are supplying correctly spec'ed bearings at a bargain price.

Dave O'Neill2

Good stuff Yes David I am going to Silverstone (sorry MGLive) I will gladly photograph and measure any stub axle you take. Lawrence not sure what more I can say. Bearings are simply devices manufactured by a number of organisations all manufacturing to the same specifications. All you need to do to find out if Sussex kits will do the job is to simply ask for the bearing numbers. With the numbers you can determine what specification the bearings are and thus what will be the effect of fitting them. It is very straight forward. It is guarenteed that the original kits with RHP bearings inside will fit perfectly, NOT because they are manufactured by RHP in Britain but because they are made to the CORRECT spec. other kits will not because they are NOT manufactured to the CORRECT spec. Those of us who have been messing with classic car for many years have been aware of the issue with these kits for a long time. Eachtime we fitted them we still had play in the wheel bearings. Did we complain? no? why not? because we did not fully inderstand why!. However some of us found ways to solve the problem and that is to machine the spacer between the bearings to compensate for the lack of face adjustment and that worked fine. (note we never had disk alignment issues) Today we now know why we are having issues, I now always fit the Face adjusted 40 degree bearings as demonstrated in my article and to be honest because these are superior bearings I would fit these in preference to opriginal kits but that is only my choice. So simply ask Sussex to give you the bearing numbers please?

Bob Turbo Midget England

Your missing the point. I simply asked a question. Does anyone have direct experience of purchasing front wheel bearings from sussex, and can either confirm or refute the claim, by sussex, that the bearings they supply fit without issue? That seems simple enough. Clearly they are selling these bearings, and if nobody has a problem with the fit, then they must fit. Are you really telling me, that asked specifically if they have had any issue or returns with poor fit with bearings they have supplied, after I explained the problem, that they outright lied to me on the telephone, just to be able to sell a 13 quid front wheel bearing? Is that really worth their reputation? Now they MAY be lying, though there is no evidence to back that up. So it seems unlikely to me, and nobody so far, has said they have bought these bearings, and has said anything to suggest that they don't fit properly. Is it possible, that sussex has NOT supplied front wheel bearings to ANYONE on this bbs? So who ARE they selling them to, if not Spridget owners, many of whom live in the south east, and have bought other items from sussex? "How many times have you returned a poor quality/faulty item to a retailer only to be told "no-one else has complained about them"?" --- That's not the point either. I'm asking for people HERE to say if they have had problem? Is there anybody? As regards the part numbers, I have no idea what the part numbers are. But given that they are not made by RHP, the "new" manufacturer could put any part number he wants on them, and call them equivalent to -------. As in for example 73205 equivalent to 34LJT25 , on the simply bearings website. Recently, someone whose name I forget, and in a thread I can't find, said they had bought the simply bearings items, and had fitted them without issue. they are 29 quid. Cheap I think you'll agree. I too have "been messing around with classic cars" for a long time. That's not relevant is it?

Lawrence Slater

Hi Lawrence I have tried searching for the specification of the 73205 bearing and whilst I have not been able to find the exact spec it has been suggested that the bearing is actually a special so I suppose it is probably a replacement for 34LJT25 however it is 30 quid To do the job you also need the exact replica of the other bearing as both need to be face adjusted so can you find one of those?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"Recently, someone whose name I forget, and in a thread I can't find, said they had bought the simply bearings items" That would be me! Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Ah Malcolm. Thanks, I couldn't remember who it was, and not being able to find the thread, I was beginning to wonder if I'd imagined it. :) Did you source both inner and outer from simply bearings? As Robert says both are needed. So are they fitted, and are they still good?

Lawrence Slater

Bob, I would be interested to know more about the 73205 bearings as they were numbers offered to me, during my recent trawl, as equivalents to 34(39)LJT25's. I turned them down. The factor said they were over 20 years old! and were allegedly made by FAG which I believe is a German company (or was).

Bob Beaumont

I bought the inners from there, they are listed on the website as 34LJT25 but were stamped 73205. But I checked the radius and it was 2 mm. Seemed to go together fine and couldn't detect any play whilst hubs on the bench but the suspension and hubs aren't on the car so can't comment on them 'in service'. I notice they now have "RHP 3MJT17" in stock... well, one in stock... http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p186706/RHP+3MJT17+Angular+contact+Ball+Bearing+17x47x14mm/product_info.html Both are expensive though, £30 + VAT. So £72 a side. Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Bob Beaumont I am going to repeat my earlier question Are you coming to MGlive? And are you willing to part with a set of those nice NOS rhp bearings??

Onno K

Hi Malcolm, 72 quid per side is about half the price the "R&M" originals. So not that bad in my book. Also, if they show no play on the bench, then fitting them to the car won't make them worse. Clamp the stub axle in a vice and see if you can move the disc relative to the axle. Can you? And if they spin freely then you can't ask for more in terms of fit. All that remains is to find how long they last. Since 2001, FAG(germany) has been part of the Schaeffler Group.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, yeah they spin freely and seemed play free on the bench (as I said). Just thought that maybe once there was a wheel on and something bigger to grab hold of I might be able to detect something. But just being cautious! Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Firstline parts sell the wheel bearing kit as FBK011. Circa 26 quid. Firstline claim OEM matching. I think I'll give their technical line a call on wednesday and see what they have to say.

Lawrence Slater

Well each time we have this debate I learn something new and as is the case again. This time I am now aware of Simply bearings who I think have the genuine articles. Anyway moving forward Lawrence ask them what are the bearing numbers contained in their kit I suspect they will be something like 7303 and 7205 But we can only ask?

Bob Turbo Midget England

Yup will do just that Rob :).

Lawrence Slater

Hi Onno, Sorry not going to MGlive. Bob

Bob Beaumont

I rang Firstline and spoke with the Product manager about their front wheel bearing kit. FBK011. The bearings are made for Firstline to the original RHP(BMC) drawing specifications, and he quoted the familiar RHP numbers, 39LJT25 and MJT17. So they should be an identical product to the original RHP bearings. They are made in Europe, by a European company. He wouldn't say who, because I might simply go direct and buy them myself if he told me who it was. He didn't have access to one to tell me what part number was stamped on the bearing(s), but said it wouldn't likely be the RHP numbers or the like, because of property rights issues etc. They sell about 300 per year, and have had no feedback regarding fitting problems of any description at all, and no returns. Firstline FBK011 kits retail around 23 to 35 quid per kit, depending on where you get them, and of course if you can get trade discounts you might be able to get them cheaper. But 13 quid does sound too cheap for one of their kits (Firstline packaging). However, another supplier may also be getting the same bearings from the same European manufacturer, and selling them cheaper, in which case the sussex kits might pucker items too.

Lawrence Slater

And following on from my call to Firstline, here's a bargain. Car parts direct. www.mcc-buy.com They are currently selling (clearance line only) the FBK011 Firstline kit for £12.00 each. They have 2 kits in stock. You can't order online, you have to buy over the phone on the number below. Call Call 01332 290833. This is their clearance line.

Lawrence Slater

I have bought the FirstLine FBK011 bearings from Car Parts Direct. I will measure them upon arrival (probably tomorrow) and report my findings. -- Josh

Josh L

SWEET, this is awesome news. Lawrence, can you tell us how to reach Firstline to buy these bearings (FBK011 Firstline kit for £12.00 each)? Or, do they only sell through Car Parts Direct, at 01332 290833? Josh, once you have confirmed the parts from Firstline I will update the article in the MG Experience (internet) Library with their contact information for everyone's future reference. A source who is actually manufacturing them will be more useful in the long run than the "Orinoco, who claims to be RHP, and might today be a part of the NSK empire, but is perhaps, in fact, only selling off old stock from their shelves for a very high price".* Regarding confirming the Firstline bearings, the 2mm radius will be easy enough to confirm, but the challenging part will be how to confirm that they were, in fact, face adjusted. The proper way to confirm it is to support one race while loading the other race with 5 lbs mass, and then measure that the two faces are within 0.001" of each other. Anyone got access to a surface plate with a decently mounted dial indicator? Norm Kerr *PS: when I called Orinoco/"RHP" two years ago, they told me that they are selling off old stock, but will continue to manufacture the parts in small batches as demand dictates. Since then, another person posted here countering that they do not manufacture parts, but are only selling off old stock. I don't know how to confirm which is true, but in either case, their asking price is quite dear, so if the Firstline parts are, in fact, made correctly, their price will be a very welcome piece of news for everyone, and maybe our normal suppliers can start getting them from there (Moss, Sussex, and etc.)?

Norm Kerr

plenty of FBK011 new on ebay around the 30 quid mark... different retailers.

David Smith

As David says, there are loads on eBay. Once you add VAT and delivery to the £12 a side, they are only slightly more expensive. They also seem to be available from RockAuto in the states (https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,catalog,299,partnum,FBK011,d,First_Line_FBK011.html) which is promising for the American contingent. Christian and I should be able to rig up something to check if they are face adjusted, we certainly have a surface plate and dial indicator (how good they are is another story). I will check the radius when they arrive along with any markings, and will have a bash at the face adjusted part as soon as we can. -- Josh

Josh L

Norm, this Firstlines contact page. http://www.firstline.co.uk/contact.php To purchase direct from them, I would imagine you have to be a dealer. Otherwise you buy from retail outlets, such as Car parts direct, www.mcc-buy.com. This online retailer has(had, if Josh bought all their stock) them as very cheap clearance items. Their normal retail price was 45UKP, and they were selling them for 12UKP per kit per side. Plus delivery and Vat it seems. But that's still cheap for one side, Still only circa 30 UKP for both sides. However, any car parts supplier can order and supply Firstline kits. The prices vary. The big question is, if the much cheaper kits (non-Firstline) on ebay, and through the likes of Sussex, are actually sourced from the same manufacturer and simply sold for less. It may be that the manufacturer is able to make them cheaply, and Firstline and the ilk, being big companies, with bigger overheads, have to or chose to put a bigger mark up on them. UNIPART. I also rang Unipart. One of the Davids mentioned this in another thread, -- that they claim to supply OEM spec parts. So I called and asked the same questions, but was told that they were no longer sure what was in the kits with respect to the manufacturer. So I visited my local Unipart store, and got them to order a kit in for me to inspect. BUT GUESS WHAT? I'm told it will contain a kit from FIRSTLINE. I was told that Firstline do indeed only supply original spec items. So Josh's report will confirm it for sure. -- Hopefully.

Lawrence Slater

I bought a pair, they didn't say how many they had left. -- Josh

Josh L

I only use £12 cheapo bearings but buy 2 sets.The first I trial fit,reducing the bearing spacer till the torqued up clearance is spot on. This sometimes takes 3 or 4 trials by which time the inner race is bruised and can't be used. I then substitute that for the new inner bearing and shazam it's all done. I've got one set on the Frogeye that I did at least 5 years ago, and another on the A35 which are still good after 3. Both cars are on 5 1/2" rims with 185X70's.

F Pollock

Hi Fergus, Are these the sussex bearings? So they might have more stock then Josh. I confess I only asked if they had two sets and assumed that was all they had. But who knows?

Lawrence Slater

In that case Lawerence, I suspect they have more (he asked how many I wanted, not if I wanted the last set). Those looking to get some may as well wait till I have given them a quick measure tomorrow, they could be just as bad as all the others! I paid £38 in total for two sets, VAT and delivery. -- Josh

Josh L

These are the ones I used in the past. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-midget-AUSTIN-HEALEY-SPRITE-61-79-FRONT-WHEEL-BEARING-KIT-NEW-/370619252481?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item564aa0ff01 They now cost £18,so a bit of a hike in 3 years. Ref KIT 007. Bearings numbered 7205 and 7303.

F Pollock

As Fergus has described if you buy the cheap bearing kits you actually purchase the same sized bearings as the originals which are not face adjusted so you will have play in the front wheels when fitted. Obviously Fergus does the modificaion to the inner spacer to account for this issue and eventually he makes them fit in the manner I and others have in the past, but this is not the answer for the basic enthusiast. What is interesting is that Fergus like myself has neverhad a problem with the inner radius which seems to plague our American friends? the problem fo us Brits and Europeans is face adjustment which can easily be overcome by fitting the 40 degree face adjust bearings from SKF and NSK I am not sure why people think that a kit costing such little money is going to contain Face adjusted bearings? how many manufacturers do people think exist? I know of a couple of companies who will machine normal bearings to face adjusted spec but it will naturally cost and would be cheaper simply to fit the modern 40 degree equivalent.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Robert, It has probably been asked before but what do you do about the problem with the small inner radius on the inner bearing even with the face adjusted bearings you use. I've seen various wheel bearings which have a much larger than industrial standard radius for use in stub axle applications, obviously special for the application.

David Billington

Hi David in reality I have done nothibng about it and I did nothing about it for all those years I was fitting bearings that induced play in the front wheels? Fergus what if anything have you done about it? To date I had never noticed an issue so I am keen to start measuring the stub axles to see what radius was machined into them. Have you checked any David?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

During my NOS trawl in South London, I was offered wheel bearings sets from Firstline. Stockwell Motors had a set which they let me inspect. The inner bearing had the correct radius but there seemed considerable play between the inner and outer races of both bearings. Of course this may go when the hub is tightened up. The original RHP spec bearings do not display any play. I didn't partake!

Bob Beaumont

Robert, I haven't bought any bearings recently but did check the QH bearings I had fitted to the car last and the inner radius was correct. I have the stub axle on the bench so will check it tomorrow and post the radius.

David Billington

I've never bothered about the inner rad. Once the bearing spacer has been modded to give the correct feel I just torque it all up and that's it. New spacers are only a fiver or can be shimmed if it gets too tight. It's really no harder than setting up timing gears.

F Pollock

Bearings have arrived. Good news for me, they are NOS RHP bearings. Not so useful for us. Unsurprisingly the packaging looks different to the FirstLine that I have seen on eBay. I guess the next thing to do is try a new set of FirstLine bearings, any idea where in London I could get a set to try (and avoid postage). -- Josh

Josh L

I would guess that any Unipart/Partco or maybe local motor factor would have them.

Dave O'Neill2

Well Josh, that's very interesting. When I spoke with Firstline, he told me that they were supplying newly manufactured bearings. However, Firstline like QH have been around for sometime. So it would appear that direct car parts, have a number of older Firstline kits, containing RHP bearings, and these are being sold at clearance prices of 12 quid a kit. So you paid £19.50 per side in total. That's a bargain, and I would suggest that anyone wanting these bearings cheap, should call 01332 290833, now, whilst stocks last. I have an order with Unipart, and am told it will be a Firstline kit. I wonder if it will also include an older Firstline RHP kit. There maybe more older RHP kits around than we all supposed. But the price is likely to be circa 35 quid per side. Still not bad compared to the prices asked by chap at "R&M" aka Orinoco. If as Bob B describes, the Firstline bearings appear to be looser fitting, at least on inspection, then this may not matter. Assuming that Firstline themselves don't have massive old stocks of RHP kits, then the new kits they are supplying, are made in Europe and meet the original RHP specs. This is evidenced by the lack of complaints and returns to Firstline, of the 300 kits they sell annually.

Lawrence Slater

just called Car parts direct Clearance line - none left, the last pair were sold yesterday...

David Smith

The price they charge though Lawrence does not allow them to be made to original specs and in Europe!

Bob Turbo Midget England

How do you know that for certain though Rob?

Lawrence Slater

I suspect there are quite a few NOS RHP bearing Kits still around. It may take a bit of searching though. They may go under a variety of names eg Unipart, QH, Firstline, Powertrain. My seach was only around Croydon, Brixton and Mitcham and yielded 6 kits. The newest kit RHP bearing kit was QH apparently (according to the factor) on the shelf since 2010.

Bob Beaumont

Have just checked the radius on one of my stub axles and the best fit is 2.5mm although to complicate the matter it is not a true or complete radius. The radius is as shown in the image.

David Billington

Here's one I posted previously. A 4mm(2mm R)drill shaft against the axle fillet.

Lawrence Slater

My pictures of a seemingly correctly radiused bearing (against a 2mm (left) and a 1mm (right) gauge). These were my (now, seemingly rip off!) simply bearings bearings. I think I measured the stub too, but don't remember if I took a picture. If I did it isn't to hand. Malcolm P.S. wow, a lot of brackets in that post... :-)

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Here are the NEW Firstline FBK011 bearings. The numbers in case you can't make them out are: Outer 7303 BTVP Inner 7205B No makers mark. I inspected them at an official Unipart store that ordered them in for me. So if you get the bearings from Unipart, you will get Firstline it seems, unless they have old stock of course. I took a stub axle with me, and slid the inner bearing on. It fits perfectly. My home made gauge also indicates that the radius is perfect. I also took with me a used RHP inner bearing, and compared the unloaded free play. My RHP bearing has some grease packed in it, and the FL bearing was only oiled. There was some degree of play in the race of the FL bearing, but no more than I would expect if mine was only oiled. Conclusion? There is a guarantee of money back with the FL kit if they don't fit properly. Hassle but not much. If I needed new bearings, and couldn't get new old stock RHP, I'd give the FL kit a try. PS. They came in sealed bags, they let me cut the inner open to take a peek and test the fit.

Lawrence Slater

I wonder if they are FAG, or SKF? Google the numbers and you get some interesting stuff. http://www.bearingmaster.co.uk/Single-Row-Angular-Contact-Ball-Bearings/7205-B-Single-row-angular-contact-ball-bearing.html

Lawrence Slater

Yes very interesting So the bearings supplied in the kit are simply 40 degree single row angular contact. The B signifies 40 degree as opposed to the original 20 degree These are NOT face adjusted (as the price would suggest) and would therefore give play in the front wheel beaings If you want to use SKF 40 degree bearings with face adjustment then the numbers required are 7303BECBP 7205BECBP IMHO

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Interesting as looking here http://medias.ina.de/medias/en!hp.ec.br.pr/73..-B*7303-B-TVP it mentions that the radius in question should be 1mm maximum and Lawrence has stated that the radius is the correct larger (2mm) radius which would seem to indicate that the bearings may not be marked to indicate they're non standard. B is standard for 40 degree bearings so not as per original. The other suffixes vary by maker but in this case TVP is for reinforced polyamide. Will have to wait and see what others find when they measure the pairs with regards face adjustment.

David Billington

Well if they don't fit properly, then Firstline have stuck their neck out a long way in guaranteeing no questions money back, and assuring me that they have had no returns on 300 annual sales. That's the deal on offer from Unipart too. Like I said it's a hassle fitting them only to find they give wheel wobble, but at least you can get your money back and then raise the issue with a major supplier, who will then have to withdraw the product, on the basis that wheel wobble is dangerous, and that they are not fit for purpose. For those reasons, I suspect that these will in fact fit. As David pointed out, I know the radius is correct because I fitted them directly to an axle shaft as well as measuring it. Why go to to the bother of reading the drawings and making sure the radius is correct, and then not bother to machine them to the correct tolerance? Maybe it's not such a big deal to make these within the 1thou spec. After they were made originally to the correct spec, and didn't cost an arm and a leg then. I don't know how bearings are made, but surely getting them to the 1 thou spec could be done during the manufacturing process, rather than having to be a seperate funtion? From what I was told by Firstline, it infringes copywright to copy someone elses numbers. That suggests that these are made be SKF doesn't it? If so, we can now ring SKF, and ask them exactly what spec these bearings are made to. As regards someone measuring the face adjustment, nobody has bought them (Firstline FBK011) yet as far as I can tell.

Lawrence Slater

No it does not mean they are made by SKF but if they are then using SKFs and NSK and others information tells us exactly the specification of the bearing and these are 40 degree angular contact bearings, which if installed in a double row configuration will not perform as required, they are not designed to do that. The bearings that are suitable for such an application are called face adjusted. These are substantially more expensive to manufacture and thus are more expensive to purchase, we live in a very simple world. If these were suitable the guy from Orinoco would soon be out of business and would not be able to charge such sums for his poorer quality product. However why don't you buy them and enjoy life and lets move on. David B I have a number of 7303B and 7205B bearings bought them far cheaper than Firstline want for them but I have tried to measure the inner radii but have found it difficult to do and am not convinced I can use my radius gauges accurately enough to do the job.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"However why don't you buy them and enjoy life and lets move on." I don't need anymore bearings thankyou Robert. :) Move on to where? If your bored with this discussion, I suggest you don't read it:) If they are so expensive to produce and retail now, why were they not substantially more expensive when RHP was still producing them? Has it become so much more expensive to produce this face adjusting? How did RHP do it? "If these were suitable the guy from Orinoco would soon be out of business and would not be able to charge such sums for his poorer quality product." The reason that Orinoco jo can charge so much, is that people believe that there is no reasonably priced alternative. But nobody (apart from you Robert) seems to be so certain that there isn't an alternative. I don't know for certain, but I am, partly out of curiosity, trying to find out. Are the people at Firstline stupid, or are they simply crooks, deliberately misleading everybody, just to make a few extra quid? Maybe they are mistaken. If so it would be quite nice to point that out to them, and they might then go back to the factory, and get the correct spec produced in numbers that would make it cheaper that buying the SKF bearings you keep going quoting, which are still quite expensive, as you freely admit. And take my word for it Robert. The 7205B bearing fits very nicely on the axle. it has the correct radius.

Lawrence Slater

PS, the guy from Orinoco is supplying RHP originals. I wasn't aware that they were a "poorer quality product"?

Lawrence Slater

I am not bored of the subject I have been working on it for about 5 years understanding why when new bearings were fitted that we always had play in them. I fortunately have a friend who was an engineering director of both RHP and NSK who eplained to me why that was and what if anything could be done about it. Many thanks to him. In the meantime our american friens decided that the radius was the problem *(doesn't bother me but it is interesting just the same) and using my information clouded the issue, because most people now are concerned about the radius rather than the point of MOT failure which is nothing whatsoever to do with the radius. The bearings when made by RHP were expensive just that old stock tends to be cheap because since priced up and produced things have become more expensive its called inflaion! Firstline are no different to any other bearing supplier so why pick on them? Again I am not alone the vast majority of Spridget owners are aware of the issue including Fergus above :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

They are poorer quality because they are the 20 degree angular contact, nowadays the standard has become 40 degree which is a far superior product when specified correctly for the application.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I don't recall front wheel bearings for Spridgets being expensive at all relative to bearings for other cars I've had in the past. In fact the reverse is true. I used to buy them from BMC dealers because they were so cheap. There wasn't much of a saving buying the likes of MOPROD, which anyway were RHP too. I haven't just picked on Firstline as you put it. Initially I was making enquiries about Sussex, and as yet, nobody has come forward to say that bearings supplied by them cause a problem. I can't quite recall why now, but I became aware that FL were also selling these bearings, and having been assured and read on their website that they match original spec, I rang them. What perhaps makes them different is that they are getting bearings made in the EU to the correct spec ( as yet to be confirmed or refuted). Again nobody has been able to say from experience of use, that the bearing supplied by FL, will not fit properly. All there is, is the statement that, because they are too cheap, they can't fit. Not very scientific it seems to me. As for being 40 vs 20 deg, that doesn't make them poorer quality though does it? Just a different specification. 40 deg gives you a greater axial load carrying capacity, than 20 deg, but presumably less radial load carrying capacity as a consequence. As there are two bearings on the front axle of a Spridget, I assume that the designers concluded that 20 deg bearings were good enough. They certainly last long enough. And if this bbs is anything to go by, the vast majority of spridget owners are not aware of or understand this problem. A quick trawl through the archives will indicate the number of times the question comes up, posted by different posters.

Lawrence Slater

""All there is, is the statement that, because they are too cheap, they can't fit. Not very scientific it seems to me"" Dear me Lawrence do you actually ever listen to anyone else? They are the wrong spec that is why they will not fit correctly. How do I know that? Because I have looked at the manufacturers specification that is how I know!! I merely pointed out that to be the correct specification the bearings would be far more expensive. The cost of a product is in direct proportion to the amount of effort required to manufacture this is simple. The bearings were expensive years ago when compared to standard articles the same as today! not when compared like for like. the original bearings were 7303 and 7205 but with special machining to allow them to work as a double row angular contact application so the basic bearings like today were around 5 times cheaper than those that required extra machining. You are the first person I have heard of who has fitted numerous spridget bearings without having play issues or have you always bought an original NOS kit? Today many vehicles use double row angular contact bearings, however to solve the problem of marrying 2 bearings they are made in one piece, go buy one for your modern car and see the price, they are also not cheap. If you dont believe there is a problem why do you post?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

<<The bearings when made by RHP were expensive>> 'expensive' is a subjective word, I prefer to deal with facts; I've just priced up 2 bearings and an oil seal to obtain a kit cost using BL or Unipart price lists: June 1978 - £10.60 July 1979 - £11.01 Oct 1989 - £17.30 Sep 1991 - £20.30 late 90's - £22.33 now - £30.00 I then expressed this as a percentage of the median monthly wage: June 1978 - 2.3 July 1979 - 2.3 Oct 1989 - 1.5 Sep 1991 - no data late 90's - 1.28 now - 1.3 my conclusion is that bearing kit prices have been stable for 25 years; the drop in the 80s correlates to Unipart being sold off by BL and becoming far more efficient. You could say they were expensive back in the 70s when BL had more control over the supply chain - I wonder what the cost direct from a bearing supplier would have been back then?

David Smith

The reason, as I understand it, that the Orinoco bearings are expensive is that they are standard bearings which they have modified for the radius and the face adjustment. They are also only doing it in small batches which also adds to the cost. The original bearings would be more expensive than the standard as an extra operation is required for the face adjustment. However the sheer numbers we produced in one production run would keep the price relatively low (don't forget they also fit A30,35,40 etc). As I have said before RHP supplied many thousands of bearings to BMC (and others)every month, so they got a good price. Trev

T Mason

<<You are the first person I have heard of who has fitted numerous spridget bearings without having play issues>> well here's the second; as you know I've owned and maintained Midgets since 1975 and have a reputation for doing it on the cheap; I've always bought the cheapest bearings I could find and never had any fitting problems or excess play issues.

David Smith

I bought a lot of Unipart bearings back in the '90s, which lasted me quite a while. In more recent years, I have had problems with other brands.

Dave O'Neill2

I used to get front bearings from A H Spares - but started to find there was more play in the new bearings than the ones I was taking off. That's what lead to me 'face adjusting' the spacer.

F Pollock

"Dear me Lawrence do you actually ever listen to anyone else?" ----- "You are the first person I have heard of who has fitted numerous spridget bearings without having play issues or have you always bought an original NOS kit?" ---- Robert, if you actually bothered to read all the posts properly, including mine, you'd see that my first post on this subject, albeit in another thread, did indeed state that I only ever bought RHP bearings. So, no I have not experienced the problems personally. Dear me Robert, you really must read everything, and not only your own comments. Robert, would you please state for the record, that, Sussex Classic MG Car Parts, and Firstline are seling front wheel bearings that don't fit properly? --- "If you dont believe there is a problem why do you post?" --- Read my first post in THIS thread Robert. Also, if you can find just one post where I said definitively that there isn't a problem with some or maybe even ALL non RHP bearings on the market, I'll eat my testicles. I have even said that Sussex and Firstline MAY or may NOT be selling bearings that fit. I'm spoeculating in the face of anecdotal evidence, and of course, you own eminent and expert opinion. Beg pardon m'lord Robert, but am I not allowed to post here without your express permission? The chap calling himself R&M, aka Orinoco, is selling NOS RHP bearings. When he runs out, he says he will/can get other beaings machined to the same spec. Yup David, those are the prices I remember from the '70s. Subjective I agree. I can only assume that even though I too am a tight sod, I must have been earning pretty good money back then, because I thought then and still do now, that circa 11 quid for a bearing kit from BL/BMC, was very cheap and not worth undercutting with pattern parts. Now at the risk of getting up noses, Roberts in particular, I'll keep posting anything I find interesting on this subject. If it turns out, and I am the one to find out, that sussex, and FL are indeed selling substandard prodcucts that don't fit properly, I will let everyone here know, and also the companies concerned, and also trading standards. If on the other hand, it turns out that you can fit for example a sussex or a FL bearing kit, and it fits without issue, I'll post that information too. Given the quite high prices of NSK super-duper Robert moderns, Orinoco overpriced RHP nos originals, and the getting harder to find daily, reasonably priced nos RHP's, I think it's worth finding out. Coz it could save peeps quite a few quid.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence At which point will you accept the engineering concept that to use 2 angular conact bearings in the configuration of the Spridget requires them to be face adjusted? If you will not accept this then how on earth can we move forward. By your own addmission you are not a mechanical engineer and so who needs to explain this to you to make it clear? If you would accept this concept then I am sure it would be easy for you to view the manufacurers website to allow you to understand why certain products will not fit. Of course it would be great to find products at a fraction of the cost of correct products to do jobs on our cars but we all know that will never happen. Everyday we are confronted with cheap products that whilst look OK and are cheap do not do the job. Regarding Sussex and Frontline if the bearings in the kit are not face adjusted, they are not correct equally if they do not have a large raius on the inner bearing then they will also not be to original spec. Equally if they are not 20 degree angular contact they are not also original spec. None of that is difficult and I am quite happy to state that as I have just done.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

that's all very well but 'what point are you making?'

David Smith

:)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Sorry Robert, I'm not quite clear on that answer. Are you stating --- categorically -- that the bearings being supplied by Sussex and Firstline, DON'T FIT? No if or but, or qualifications. Do you KNOW for a FACT, that sussex and FL are selling bearings that do not fit Spridget hubs properly? When did you try and fit them, and what happened when you did? Bearing (no pun intended) in mind, that they both claim to have sold many, and have had no returns. Are you calling them liars, or mistaken? And how many times must I tell you? The radius on the FL inner bearing is 2mm at least. It fits my spare axle. Right up flush against the end of the axle.

Lawrence Slater

I give in !!! For anyone bar Lawrence if interested Before you buy a bearing kit simply ask the distributors what the bearing numbers are within the kit. This will tell you if it is worth buying or not. Good luck :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

It's simple enough Robert, either you know or you don't. I'll take it as a no then. You don't know for certain if Sussex, and or FL are selling bearings that will fit without problems or not. Nor do I, or anyone else so far posting here, and if they do, they're not saying. You only know, that going by the numbers we now know are on the bearings supplied by FL, they shouldn't fit without problems. This is because, as you and other people have said ( and I don't disagree), that they appear to be produced to an inadequate specification. I.e. not face adjusted, even if the radius on the axle facing side of the inner bearing is the correct 2mm, or otherwise large enough. So that takes me back to my reason for starting this thread. There's an inconsistency between what reputable company/companies are saying, and what appears to be the case. The reason I don't know with 100% certainty that these bearings won't fit properly, is that in conversation with them, specifically including the point about the required specifications for the bearings, both companies maintain and have assured me that they have had no returns or complaints in multiple sales over multiple years. I was hoping with Sussex, that someone would have come forward to either refute or confirm what I was told, but nobody has. It could be that out of all the people, buying all these bearings, over the numbers of years they've been selling them, that nobody has felt annoyed or concerned enough to ring and complain, or to return them. That seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible. I asked earlier, is it just possible that they ( Sussex, and now FL) are getting a supply of bearings, that do actually meet the correct specifications of the original rhps, or that otherwise fit properly, without problems, and are able to sell them cheaply. Well maybe they can and maybe they can't. If it's proved beyond doubt that they can't, and therefore that they aren't selling the correct bearings, then my guess is that they could be required to stop selling them as suitable for Spridgets, (under the trades description act ) -- unless they tell their customers, that they have to be fitted with the kind of modifications that Fergus has carried out. That would just about kill their sales of these bearings I suspect. It might then persuade them to source the correct bearings in sufficient numbers that would allow them to be sold at a more reasonable price. Now that seems reasonable to me. :)

Lawrence Slater

Time of course will tell. However when you confirm those companies what about all the others? Do we need confirmation from them all you never know one of them may be the real deal who can tell for sure?? I see MGB hive sell a kit for 19 quid, Brown and Gammons 18 quid plus vat, moss europe 23 quid plus vat, what do you reckon? makes Orinoco look expensive, I agree.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

All, Apologies for not adding sooner but have been busy but following thread , at the risk of starting the debate again I purchased 2 front bearing sets from Sussex in Feb this year , i was going to use orinoco but was quoted circa 260 plus postage and didn't have it. I spoke with sussex and got the same answer as Lawrence , so i purchased , mine fit fine and seem to have no excess play , all front components are new / exchange so may make a difference and car hasn't been driven yet just pushed around but seem to be no problems They might not last or wear quickly on road but do appear okay at the moment , also had a mechanic who lives opposite look once fitted and he didn't think there would be an mot issue , I hope not !! Andy

Andy Chaffey

I would be confident mate modern bearings no metter where they are made a all good quality and will last a long while. Thanks for the info so you have bought 2 sets and both have fitted perfectly without play, which is great. Why are you worrying about an MOT? with no play they can not fail! :) Did you note the numbers on the bearings per chance?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

FWIW I also have fitted Sussex MG bearings to my GAN3 road Midget without problem... Had there been play I would have adjusted the spacer as Fergus has suggested... JB

James B

Hi James have you adjusted the spacer before?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob, I didn't note numbers unfortunately , fitted them ages before saw this thread , worry about everything on mot as full rebuild and know i will have missed something !!! Cheers Andy

Andy Chaffey

Not on that car... Yes on a race car (not mine) - not sure where that bearing kit came from (twas a good few years back)

James Bilsland

That's brilliant news chaps. Thanks. Seems that somebody went to a bearing maker, and got them to produce a bearing that fits, for very cheap money then. 13 quid for bearings that actually fit. Who'd have believed it? Not someone I could mention. :) Whatever numbers are on them, they fit. So no need to spend so much after all, and Orinoco won't be selling many of his at those prices will he. As for other suppliers, it doesn't matter much now does it? The recommend has to be to support Sussex. They are selling at £11.26 (Inc V.A.T) plus postage. Let's keep them in business. The other suppliers will soon notice that they aren't selling many if any bearings, and might then start selling the same bearings as sussex. Hey ho. No need to say sorry Robert. :)

Lawrence Slater

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but I also bought a wheel bearing Kit from Greg @ Sussex classics but unfortunatly it DID HAVE PLAY! Unfortunatly I can't remember what the packaging/ bearing number was but it wasn't a green/yellow box like Lawrence posted. Now this was about 6 maybe 9 months ago maybe longer, so judging by the responses of others it is possible Sussex changed supplier in light of the on going issues of getting bearing to fit Midgets properly?! The bearings were removed and refunded and I purchased from R&M (EXPENSIVE I KNOW! :-)) no problems....

M Slater

I thought that the point about non-face adjusted bearings was simply that they hadn't undergone the additional refinement during production of the accurate finishing needed for each individual bearing. And as such there was variability between batches and or between individual bearings. So, a non face adjusted bearing is likely to give slack, but OTOH you just MAY be lucky and get one that has a finer tolerance. This could explain why some people seem to get hold of bearings that are acceptable, whilst others are having problems.

Guy

LOL. Love it. Thanks M. Well trust someone with my name to throw a spanner in the works. Very useful spanner though, as that was what I've been asking for all along. So thanks for that. However, does this mean that ALL sussex supplied front wheel bearing kits are therefore no good? Clearly not, as at least two people on here have fitted them without issue. Could this be (just like the rear leaf spring issue), a matter of consistant quality during manufacture, or a matter of who manufactures them? I've been trawling through previous posts on this subject. NOT everybody has had problems when fitting the "cheaper" front wheel bearing kits. This has always been the problem with pattern parts though hasn't it? If you wanted to get the best, you got the oem part, but often that did mean you were paying over the top, when an after market part was available far cheaper and just as good. I'm going over to sussex sometime soon, so I'll be sure to mention that M Slater. I will ask how much of a slip of memeory it was, when I was told that in 7 years with the same supplier, there had been no returns or problems. Meanwhile. Here's an interesting video of how deep groove ball bearings are made. Not angular, but the process must be very similar. At what point would the extra "face adjustment" take place, in the manufacture of adjusted angular contact ball bearings? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyoMuE4gDQ

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence Like I said I wander if He has changed supplier?? I was a blue box now I think about it... and I remember thinking it looked like a "really cheap" kit it came with a wee silver packet of grease- similar to the type you'd get with a CV boot kit.... Like Guy has also just mentioned everyhting is manufactured to a tolerance......??? Mark

M Slater

Hi Mark, I won't mention any names. Unless you gave me express permission. But I agree with you. If they got returns, at least more than one, they might well have changed supplier.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence No names please! :-) I get on well with Greg! :-) He is one of the better suplpiers I have used and don't want to spoil that relationship. Ta

M Slater

That is great, and as Guy mentions the tolerance on standard bearings can just as easily fit as not fit it is a chance you take. Andy just for my benefit what did you mean by this statement? ""and seem to have no excess play"" they either have play or not?, so does this indicate no play? Why do I need to appologise mate? get sussex to take me to court, it will not be a problem because I will simply take an expert to represent me and win. :) Modifying bearings is an extremely expensive task, and the price does not represent the task.

Bob Turbo Midget England

My mention of tolerance on non face adjusted is that the manufacturing process will churn out components of varying dimensions. Modern machines should minimise this, but even then during production of a batch there will be a gradual change as machines and cutters wear. So, without the further checking and refinement of face adjustment, the bearings being packaged up and sent off to retail suppliers will have a certain amount of variation. The boxed set supplied to one customer may give no problems at all, whilst the next off the shelf may be terrible.

Guy

Guy, as Mark also said. you raise an interesting point about manufacture to a tolerance. I've been thinking about this too. Please feel free to chop off the extended neck, of this self confessed non-mechanical engineer, but otherwise reasonably intelligent interloper, who dares to discuss a subject, in which he has no formal qualifications. Anyway, it's been stated that the Spridget hub design requires so called "face adjusted" bearings. From what I can tell this isn't a universal term. NTN of America for example, use another term for this. And from what I can tell, it is no more than you describe. Additional machining to ensure a super fine tolerance where the application demands it. Is it absolutely certain that Spridget hub design requires such fine tolerance over and above the normal? Is it possible that a bearing produced "accurately" but to "normal" tolerance is acceptable? ------ If the cheapness of the Sussex product is anything to go by, (exceptions accepted), this seems to be the case. Were the RHP originals really produced to such a fine tolerance? They were obviously made to a spec, and it was important that spec was adhered to, but why is that such a great surprise, or a difficult and expensive task to achieve? They were made to specific measurements, and when installed into the equally specified hub, with an accurately made spacer, they fitted without play. Maybe modern normal tolerance, is way better than it used to be back in the days when RHP made the original bearings? So if a modern basic 7205 and 7303 bearing is made, to a decent quality, I can't see why someone such as Sussex, can't get and supply them cheaper than the very finely adjusted NSK versions. And then it comes down to quality. I've been google-ing NSK 7205BEAT85 bearings. RS components sell them for £11.75. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/4088486/ Now these are missing the suffix, "SUN" that Roberts quotes as the best bearings by NSK for Spridget hubs.. Can anyone please point me to the glossary of NSK terms? B = 40degree. What is EAT85SUN? Edit: Just read your update as I posted this Guy.

Lawrence Slater

The bearings require a 0.001 ~ 0.004" free play, this is typical of automotive RWD front end design (example, MGB, or look up Timken's web page, they say the same, for a variety of bearing types). Without the use of shims to set this, or a face adjusted bearing, it is only chance that would make a non-shimmed, non-face adjusted bearing fit properly. By the way, an over-compressed bearing will give no play (and pass the MOT), but its life will be greatly reduced. Norm

Norm Kerr

Well if that's definitely the case then Norm, and assuming that a load more people don't post to say that they have negative experinece with sussex, how can it be that sussex and possibly FL, are selling adjusted bearings for such a cheap price? Could it be that getting these bearings made to the adjusted spec can be done more cheaply than has hitherto been stated?

Lawrence Slater

Norm, did you watch the vid I posted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyoMuE4gDQ At about 1.26 mins in, it discusses the machining of the raceways. Is this the free play/internal clearance you are talking about?

Lawrence Slater

Hi Mark, No problem, no names at all. I've got my bits from Sussex too. He's a very friendly and helpful guy. That's why I find it surprising/not really believable, that he would deliberately mislead anyone with regards to the fitting of these bearings. He also sounds very clued up about the parts he sells, so I also find it surprising that he would be unaware of the importance of getting correctly fitting bearings. If it is as chancy getting a basic bearing to fit as Norm suggests, then sussex must be getting a better spec bearing for a very good price. As I'm quite near, and it's a pleasant drive to where they are, I'll take a drive over there, on a sunny day, if that comes around again. :)

Lawrence Slater

My guess is that most people, MOT inspectors included, expect there to be less slack on front wheel bearings than was generally acceptable on small, low cost, low speed cars in the 1950's. So bearings made to a specification by experienced, well trained and skilled UK machine operators at that time were fine for general production of these cars when new. Now we look for a "higher" quality, but bearings are automatically churned out at high speed, and boxed and sold on with no further quality control. So unless specified as face adjusted - in which case the extra labour and skill required rockets the price, you pays your money and takes your chances. In theory there is no real reason why a manufacturer shouldn't make these bearings to specification, and with finer tolerance. In fact with modern machines one might reasonably expect them to be better than originals. But I suspect that for low volume production in a competitive market these are made on older, more worn, less sophisticated machines whilst more state of the art machines are reserved for major mainstream worldwide customers. But like with so many other reproduction parts, manufacturing sources come and go. Who knows, next month's supplier may be producing much better bearings than those currently on shelves. Or maybe they will be worse.

Guy

Of course these bearings are only part of an assembly that includes the hub, spacer and stub axle, and I'd have thought these 50 year old components would have stretched and slackened somewhat over time. Unless you know for sure these other components are all within tolerance you cannot reasonably expect to achieve the 0.001 ~ 0.004" runout. I see that Southern list the bearings as S+M. I'm not sure what that refers to but if they still come in M Slater's blue box they're likely to be ones I used.

F Pollock

The bearings I inspected at Stockwell Motors were in a blue box with a small packet of grease. One was marked 7205 couldn't read the other. As I mentioned they seemed to have more deal of play compared with the RHP ones. I agree with Guy.I am no expert but it does seem to me that the 'new' bearings may or may not fit without any additional shimming etc. The original RHP's fit and work without any shimming or additional adjustment. Its pot luck if the new ones fit. Providing you are happy to undertake abortive work replacing the bearings and the supplier changes them so be it. Whilst this state of affairs continues and the bearings remain dirt cheap then there is no real incentive for any supplier to change. Personally I'll stick to trawling for the old stuff.

Bob Beaumont

Fergus, I took 'S+M' to mean Sprite and Midget

Nigel Atkins

Fergus, ignore what I just put I was thinking of Sussex parts

Nigel Atkins

Given the level of pain some people seem to get with this subject, maybe S+M means something else entirely :P So maybe Fergus, that someone with a hub that hasn't been taken apart much/if at all before, could fit a cheap bearing and not get excess play. Whereas, a very used and oft renovated hub, could get excess play even with an original RHP. PS, it's due a greeting from the queen. 100+

Lawrence Slater

Face adjusted bearings are not made to a tighter tolerance, the inner and outer are face ground as a pair. The crucial dimension is actually the track centre to face and not the overall width. Standard bearings have the inner and outer machined seperately and as with all mass produced items are made to a tolerance. As Norm states above standard bearings may fit OK but can just as easily have play or be too tight. This is the point Bob keeps making that there are no guarantees if you don't buy face adjusted. Trev

T Mason

In my experience, the rhp bearings never initially resulted in a slack hub except when I was racing and would go through a set a season!I guess they were not designed for some nut to be running 8" slicks!!

Bob Beaumont

In my experience, the rhp bearings never initially resulted in a slack hub except when I was racing and would go through a set a season!I guess they were not designed for some nut to be running 8" slicks!!

Bob Beaumont

In my experience, the rhp bearings never initially resulted in a slack hub. When I was racing and I would go through a set a season!I guess they were not designed for some nut to be running 8" slicks!! I don't therefore think the condition of the hub matters that much.

Bob Beaumont

OOps problem with my connection!

Bob Beaumont

Hi Trev, in the vid link I posted, NTN grind the bearings as a pair, inner and outer, does this then indicate that these bearings are face adjusted? Or does this not apply to deep groove bearings?

Lawrence Slater

Cool video Lawrence, thanks for posting that. She left out an important aspect of bearing manufacture though, although she did mention it she didn't describe why: the hoppers of balls are sorted balls by diameter. The various diameters of balls that come out of the grinding process (the one which takes several days) are sorted out and then grouped together in those hoppers so that the entire bearing assembly can be made up of whichever combination of them is necessary to keep the whole thing within the necessary tolerances. This variation exists even today, in spite of over a hundred years of technological advances. It is done more efficiently today, but is still done much the same way as it was long ago: they make the balls as well as they can, sort out what they get, and then they mix and match as needed to get one good assembly. The tighter the required tolerance, the more sorting is done (and the more the cost goes up). Sometimes the "bad" balls that fall too far outside of the range can be used for other things, not just cheaper bearings, but also for faucets and other stuff that uses hard balls but can allow more tolerance than a bearing could allow. But, there was no mention in the video of face adjusting, which must be done after it is all put together. The face grinding shown at the beginning of the video looks like just the normal preparation for "ordinary" tolerance. I say this because the inner and outer were not kept together after that step, they were separated and mixed up. I doubt that it would be possible to hold a +/-0.001" face adjusted tolerance after mixing them up like that. For face adjusting, after all of the parts are put together, they then re-grind the faces, and get that tight tolerance. Perhaps a clever machine could manage to keep the inner and outer "family" from getting mixed up, and possibly reach our needed tolerance, at no additional cost, but even so, I expect that the maker would advertise it as such. Most bearings don't need this, so I am skeptical until the maker comes forward to declare it so. Norm

Norm Kerr

Thanks Trev its like pulling teeth but we seem to be getting there slowly. :) Guy that is not the case, the original bearings specified by BMC were demanded to be face adjusted as the numbers determine. These were therefore installed with no decernable play and were spot on. As I have said on many occassion this is not a repro problem it is simply the fact that exact spec bearings are no longer made. This is the reason NOS are so desirable. However I have taken cars for MOT for many years with play in the front bearings and have had only an advisory and a nod from the tester suggesting he thinks I should tighten the bearing when I returned home. :) Lately ofcourse the modern computor controlled MOT tells the operator before the test begins what advisories the car had the year before I suspect now if a vehicle is presented year on year with the same issue someone will eventually fail it. Fergus it is not the case of all parts wearing the only 2 dimensions in the hub of any significance is the central section of the hub, should be 1.5 inches and this marries with the spacer which is also 1.5 inches unless modified by a few of us in the past :) You ask some very reasonable questions Lawrence You do not need to pick on NSK, they are one of a very few manufacturers and all manufacturers tend to make bearings to the same spec, you can purchase face adjusted bearings from all manufacturers but you will pay a premium from them all, and just for info the basic bearings from NSK and others are made in Japan so guess that means you will be confrtable with the product quality If you would like the name of the company that would modify bearings to suit older specs I will gladly supply you with a name, (maybe orinoco use them) however it will not be cheap :) I am just not sure how the face adjusting is controlled but Trev I know works/ed? for I think NSK so I would trust anything he states, thanks for the confirmation Trev. :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"bearings specified by BMC were demanded to be face adjusted" Thanks Bob. I stand corrected - I wasn't aware of that. I was aware of the original numbers, but didn't realise that they necessarily meant they were face adjusted.

Guy

Bob, what do you mean 'no decernable (discernable) play' - either there's play or there isn't - as you said yourself a few posts back. ;-)

David Smith

Lawrence, the way the video shows the races being ground together does not make them face adjusted because, as Norm states, they are then seperated for the remainder of the process (this was also not the way they were ground in the 60's). It is as I stated above the track centre to face measurement that is key to this so face adjustment needs to take place after the track has been ground and honed on both races. Most of what Norm says is basically correct and although all bearings are made to the same tolerances, fit (the amount of slack in a bearing) can be changed to suit different applications although this is going a bit off track regarding this topic. We used to have 3 different fits and 15 ball sizes to achieve this. The 15 sizes being -0.0007 to +0.0007 inches for every size of ball. Bob, nearly right, I used to work for RHP and one of its predecessors (Hoffmanns) during the late 60's to early 80's. Trev

T Mason

David you are correct mate But I used the term 'no decernable (discernable) play' purely to suggest that whilst no play is felt in the wheel there will be enough clearence for the bearing to run freely. :) Hi Trev I knew it was something like that as your knowledge of the subject is second to none. For your information I have a couple of old RHP videos that I have converted to digital that I was given. I managed to convert them before the video tape perished, would you like a copy? As you say the different fit for different applications is of interest to us MG nuts. I believe the front wheel bearings on the MGA/MGB have issues with these, My front bearings on my MGA need a tighter fit. :) Are they classed as a b and c? where c is the tightest?

Bob Turbo Midget England

'engineering fit' would make a good thread in its own right; pistons used to be graded A,B,C,D and selectively fitted to bores, are today's engines still done that way?

David Smith

Hi Robert, or anybody with access to a correct copy of the NSK(RHP) and SKF nomenclature, could you please explain all the suffixes for me? NSK 7303BEAT85SUN, 7205BEAT85SUN and SKF no's 7303BECBP, 7205BECBP I know that 7205/7303 are nominal size. I know that B is 40 degree. What exactly is EATSUN(NSK), and ECBP(SKF)? I know that some of that is metric, and some is cage type and material, but which bits are they, and which says face adjusted or it's equivalent? And just for good measure, could you do the same for the original RHP 39/LJT25, and 11/MJT17? Also, the original RHPs 39/LJT25, 11/MJT17, I assume, must have been measured and made to imperial inch specification. How closely do the modern metric equivalents match those inch measurements?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, Look at the RS link you posted http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ball-bearings/4088486/ and have a look at the data sheet, page 2 gives most of the suffixes, I think U is the Universally face matched. Note the data sheet says RHP and lists 20 degree also. You can find the SKF suffixes at the SKF site. The RHP drawings I have been given for the original bearings have the dimensions in mm. I think the full bearing number refers to the special bearings to suit the requirement and doesn't have the same arrangement as the others. Anti friction bearings, rolling element bearings, were a European invention and have always been largely been made to metric dimensions as a result, inch dimensioned bearing series do exist but are less common and so more expensive in comparison. A mate noticed that a Scammell truck gearbox used metric bearings and it was designed around 1935 so out of interest he tracked down the designer, still alive at the time, and asked why and was told cost. No reason not to make them metric and it saved money to do so, all the rest of the box was inch. Probably the same reason the stub axle bearings and rear hub bearings are metric, don't know about the final drive unit bearings but they could be also.

David Billington

Thanks David. That's some history lesson :) Yep I guess that makes sense too. Metric has been around for a long time. I looked at that pdf from RS too, and couldn't work out the suffixes properly. Ah, so the U is the key to universally matched. As in a universally matched pair. I contacted RS about that bearing on their website. Turns out that it was a mistake. It sould be 720585BETN, and not 7205BEAT85. It took the technical sales chap ages to discover that, and apologised for not having the full details of the specifications. I.e. He didn't know what the bearing was actually specified to, and couldn't tell me anything at all about face adjusting. And, curiously, I just received an email from Surfeit Ltd(Whoever they are). Maybe be I made an enquiry. Anyway they say: "Thanks for your enquiry regarding 7203BEATSUN This is a fairly standard NSK type, but there is no availability at the moment. However there are alternative brands readily available to exactly the same specn. They would retail at £22.50 per bearing, and would be one of the leading brands, FAG , SKF, RHP etc" So here's another thought perculating in my mind. I think most agree, this is a confusing subject, primarily due to the numerous part numbers and variations available. So, unless you are very well versed in the subject, mistakes could easily be made. What if, just about ALL the people you ask, including so called specialist suppliers, don't really appreciate the need for a tight tolerance in these bearings, or the differences between them? Hence as a consquence, they are ALL supplying the basic bearings in the nominal sizes required. Quoting for example, 7205B is the direct equivalent to 39/LJT25, when it's not. Their confusion would/could be compounded, by knowing that some of the time, and maybe most of the time, the bearings do fit, as people report. How about that for a theory of why all the Spridget suppliers are selling cheap bearings that they believe do the job, when sometimes they don't? And if it's right, what can be done about it?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, I think that you have hit the nail right on the head. Add to that the likelihood that roughly half of them would be too tight, so that they would go on seemingly fine, and would pass MOT, but would then require replacement after 10k or 20k miles. Long enough for the next owner to say, "oh, I guess it is time to replace these worn out front wheel bearings, I bet that I am the first one to do it to this car!", and Moss sells another set. Norm

Norm Kerr

Lawrence, http://www.surfeit.co.uk/ I also noted that the RHP data had U for universally faced single bearing and other designations for matched pairs in various configurations. I think U is correct as the pair formed are from 2 differing sized bearings. A 7205 standard bearing, even face adjusted, still won't have the correct radius.

David Billington

Hi Lawrence, not sure it is confusing seems very simple to me. All you need to understand is how 2 angular contact bearings work as a matched pair as used by BMC on various vehicles. Secondly you need to understand how to identify modern equivalents and how they fulfill the requirements of that kind of arrangement and finally you need to have a copy of the original drawings from BMC that describe what the original bearing numbers mean. For your info The original RHP numbers are straightforward if you ask the right people. The LJT25 stands for light journal 25mm internal dia The MJT17 stands for medium journal 17mm internal dia Then we have 2 digits before the main reference the first 39 (LJT25) means it is version 39 of that bearing then 11 (MJT17) means it is version 11 of that bearing. So how do we know what that version refers to, well you need the original drawings to understand the specification BMC required of RHP. I have copies of these drawings and have supplied them to whoever has an interest in this subject. Guess what, non of the so called specialist suppliers have ever asked me for a copy??, so how do Sussex know what is required? I dont think when using standard bearings in this configuration makes half of them fit and half not, I believe most do not fit but we accept that, certainly all the standard bearings I ever fitted were always slack. I also believe that whilst the requirement from BMC was to have a 2mm inner radius (this can only be found on the original drawings and appears nowhere else) I am not sure the dimensions of the axle and also of the actual dimensions of modern bearings. Because of this I have never had an occurance of axle failure to see what had occured and whether this could be put down to poor abutment against the axle shoulder, with that in mind I have for the last few years simply fitted modern Face Ad bearings to remove the play and have then had no problems. However this costs around 90 quid a wheel. Have you now finished your investigation my dear Holmes?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

so what does the T stand for? :)

Nigel Atkins

Bob, you are now quoting versions 39 and 11, I thought the 'correct' versions 34 and 3 respectively or are they both OK? BTW I've seen a version 38 inner bearing fitted, dunno if that's correct spec or not?

David Smith

Just to add a little more confusion ! I've just checked some of my spare hubs and bearings have :- 34LJT25 inners 39LJT25 inners 3MJT17 outers (some marked RHP also) New (very)old stock Unipart GHB128 outers, 3MJT17 (one marked RHP one not) Newer Unipart Kit GHK1142 (but old) Slovakia bearings 7303BTNG OXPS ZVZ Slovakia bearings 7205 BETNG ZKL R.

richard boobier

Hi Robert, thanks for the RHP suffix definitions. --- "All you need to understand is how 2 angular contact bearings work as a matched pair" ---- I do understand that Robert. Angular contact bearings, because when loaded radially create an axial thrust, they are almost always used in pairs, back to back or face to face, or in tandem as I understand it, with a third bearing. I was referring to the people who matter, the buyers and sellers, who might not be as versed in the subject as perhaps they need to be, and are hence, with good faith, supplying bearings that might not fit properly. Nope, the investigation goes on as it happens. :) If what you say is true, and you among only a very few people have access to the original drawings, you may well be right. Although they haven't asked you, (do they know of you?) why haven't you offered them the drawings? Is this because of copyright issues? So do the 39 and 11 version numbers, signify faced adjusted for the respective bearing? If not, then which bit of the RHP number does say it was face adjusted?

Lawrence Slater

From my examination of the bearings, the difference in RHP revision level referred to whether the ball separator was brass or resin, but I don't remember off the top of my head now which number went with which version. In any case, they are equivalent bearings as far as fit and performance and durability. By the way, the drawings, provided to me previously by Bob, are also included in the article in the MG Experience Library. I have asked one of our Moss distributors to use them to confirm their bearings, but I never heard back. http://www.mgexperience.net/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html scroll all of the way to the end Norm

Norm Kerr

The T bit of the RHP number designates angular contact. As Norm states 34/ and 39/ are the same except the latter has a resin cage. The prefix does indeed indicate that the radius is correct and they are face adjusted. As stated above these numbers will mean nothing to anyone without the relevant drawing as 34/ just means that it was the 34th special variant of the standard bearing. Someone above mentioned the drawing being metric. That is because all RHP drawings were converted when metrication came in. Originally they were all made in imperial measurements but that makes no difference as they were exact conversions to the metric. When metrication came in everything was converted to metric including imperial sized bearings. The other interesting thing is that all our bearings had imperial balls whether they were metric or imperial externally (if you look at the drawing for 3/MJT17 for example you will see it has 5/16 balls even though it is a metric bearing externally. I presume this was because it would have been too expensive to change all the machinary to metric. Some of the machines making the balls were the originals made on site dating back to 1896 as nothing newer could match them. Interestingly in my later years with the company I worked in the Special Bearings Department which was a self contained small outfit on part of the site (pity I'm not still there as I could have had all the hub bearings we wanted made at a good price!). We made some old large bearings (upto 4 feet diameter)for special applications like swing bridges and the first thing the drawing department did was convert all dimensions to metric because of metrication. When we got the drawing on the shop floor the first thing we did was convert everything back as all our bar micrometers were imperial - theres metrication madness for you! Bob, I would be interested in the old videos you have to bring back some old memories. I think I've covered all the questions but if not feel free to ask. Blimey this thread is turning into a bearing workshop manual! Trev Blimey this thread

T Mason

thanks Trevor, most informative.

David Smith

Bob, forgot to mention that the 3 fits we used were called 1,2 & 3 dot. This was specified at the assembly stage and the outer race was marked with the relevent number of small circles (hence the name dots). 1 being the tightest and 3 the slackest. I don't know what modern manufacturers use to designate this. When I was an apprentice one of our college lecturers had an Austin 1800 and he had to replace a CV joint on it. He brought the old one in to college and asked me if anything could be done with the old one. It had some play in it but was not too bad, so I simply measured the balls and got some new ones in the next 2 or 3 sizes up and we trial fitted them until we got the best fit. Not perfect of course as the wear in the joint was not even across the whole range but it worked and he used it on the car until he sold it some time later. Trev

T Mason

Edit. Great stuff Trevor, keep it coming. :) "Blimey this thread is turning into a bearing workshop manual!" ----- Yeah, but it's brilliant to read. Or am I a nerd? Here's a link to an RHP training vid on angular contact bearings. Yup me too on the videos Robert. In fact I reckon there would be a lot of interest in them, can we all have a look? This thread might be twisting and turning, but the fact is, that there's a problem. Suppliers are selling bearings that few if any people have confidence to purchase. Some say they are ok, and others are adamant that they can't possibly be ok, unless you carry out mod's to install them. There are many people baulking at paying over £100 per side to replace worn bearings, when "equivalents" are for sale at circa 13 quid, and the originals, if they were available in decent NOS quantities, would set you back around 30 quid per side. It's not much of a compensation to say, that the new NSK 40 degree products are superior in every way, even if they are relatively expensive, when the original 20 degree speced bearings were more than adequate for the job. So paying more for something you don't really need, does grind a little. Bearing in mind that this discussion has been going on for years, I think the thrust of this thread is right on the ball, and contacting it from the correct angle. So if we can all find a little tolerance, cage our axial tendencies to drift, and remain in the groove, maybe we'll eventually roll on to a satisfactory resolution, that might see suppliers getting the message and selling the correct product at a better price. :)

Lawrence Slater

Whoops, sorry, forgot the link, and it's an SKF vid not RHP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_vamfXL1fU

Lawrence Slater

Just read some text on the SKF website that does some explaining. "Basic design bearings Basic design single row angular contact ball bearings are intended for arrangements where only one bearing is used at each bearing position. They have Normal tolerances concerning bearing width and standout of the rings. Therefore, they are not suitable for mounting directly adjacent to each other." "where only one bearing is used at each bearing position". But, you don't tend to use angular contact bearings singly, they are used in pairs or more. Just as in the spridget hubs, there is a pair of bearings, but only one at each position. This has been buzzing around in my brain, because every reference I've found to "adjusted" or "matched" or "universal matching" or just the good old "face adjusted", is always with reference to bearings mounted --- "immediately adjacent to eachother", or similar phrase. But the bearings in spridget hubs, aren't mounted immediately adjacent. There is one at each end of the spindle. One at each position. So why MUST they be face adjusted? Add to which they are different diameters anyway, so couldn't form matched pairs back to back, or face to face, if you tried. Then the penny dropped. The spacers. The spacers in the spridget hubs, one loose and one as part of the hub, are both exactly the same length, and also act as a reducer to bring the diameters of the bearings into direct contact with eachother. Hence they are "effectively" adjacent to eachother, since the widths of the bearings are extended by the action of the spacers. Have I got that right?

Lawrence Slater

By George I think he has got it!!! :) Now please tell me why after you have read my website did you not already understand that? That is exactly the point!! Thank goodness for that. Now back to Sussex do they sell the correct bearings and will they fit without play?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Sorry David the drawings I have supplied relate to the numbers 3 and 34 I have also become confused by the myriad of opinions. The original drawings can only qualify 1 numbered bearing you would need the drawing associated with the other numbers to decide if they will work or not? I might try and get the full range of drawings to see if others in the series have the correct specifications. This could help those enthusiasts finding old stock to find bearings that would do the job correctly. I am happy to stick with the 40 degree jobs. :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Robert, "Now please tell me why after you have read my website did you not already understand that?" Glad I have laid it out accurately. 1. I didn't know you had a website. What's the link? 2. I haven't seen anyone else explain the setup in the way that I just did, with reference to the single positioning of the bearings. Have you alway been so @#@#$#$#$#$#$#?? :) As regards sussex, the jury is still out as regards whether or not there exist some basic bearings, with tolerances so good, that they are in fact suitable.

Lawrence Slater

I thought I had directed you here before? and I did in post 8 http://www.spridgettechnical.co.uk/ select workshop then wheel bearings What does this mean? @#@#$#$#$#$#$#??

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Very nice article. I Didn't know you wrote that. Why don't you put your name in the somewhere. At least I couldn't see it anywhere. Doesn't quite explain what I explained to myself for the penny to drop though. What does this mean? @#@#$#$#$#$#$#?? Anything you like really. I couldn't decide between smug, condescending, bla bla. :) ps, I must have missed the link in post 8.

Lawrence Slater

Well I suppose that is the problem with this ype of BBS The questioner is bombarded with so much information that it is vertually impossible for anyone to grasp what could be important and what is not. This happens all the time in every field of question. There were many times in this thread that I thought you understood the issue but I was wrong! That is why I coninually asked do you agree that without F A (or whatever term you choose to use) then the wheel would have play? If the answer to this is yes then the other poster has understood the issue if they do not agree with this then they do not understand the concept of this application and therefore will never understand why some bearings will never fit? In fairness it is not an easy concept to understand and so people with a limited ability to understand mechanical function and logic will vary rarely understand the problem. Others like yourself and me will eventually get it thank goodness. Now a parts supplier has no chance have they?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I believe that I properly understood why Face adjusted bearings would fit correctly, and working in combination with the hub,the spacer and the two bearings would achieve the desired effect. What I haven't spotted is an actual explanation of what is done physically to the bearing to achieve this Face Adjustment. I assume it involves either the correct matching of the balls, or by surface lapping of the outer or inner races. Or both.

Guy Weller

Well let me try to explain that in a bearing of this type you can move the inner race back and forth and it feels as though the bearing is faulty, of course it is not. The bearing when fitted needs to have the inner race pushed against the balls and these pushed against the outer race. How hard this is pushed is called pre load When this pre load is correct in a face adjusted bearing the 2 edges of the inner and outer race will be exactly level!! and this is where the machining will have been done to ensure this. When this is the case with the 2 bearings in this application the important edges are facing each other and rest against the inner spacer and the outer hub spacer both of which are exactly 1.5 inches long. Thus when both installed hese 2 spacers hold boh beaings exactly in position to be preloaded correctly

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Yes Bob, I had got all of that. That is exactly what I meant when I said "Face adjusted bearings would fit correctly, and working in combination with the hub,the spacer and the two bearings" The question was what is done physically to achieve this? You say "machining will have been done to ensure this". Are you saying that the external surface that abuts the hub and the spacer (outer and inner race) of one or both races is the surface that is machined?

Guy Weller

Yes I understand what you refer to and I think I could qualify the process. However I am not 100 sure but I know someone who will know so I will let you know he exact answer when I have asked him :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I presume Trevor can tell us! As a "work around" could one put a straight edge across the critical face of the bearing and use feeler gauges to measure the excess clearance. The centre race is going to either stand proud, or be low, when measured across the surface of the outer race. Then use this measurement to select an appropriate shim. A bit like Fergus described setting up cheap standard bearings, but without having to use a sacrificial set.

Guy Weller

No reason why not.

Dave O'Neill2

Not quite as simple as that I assume Because whilst that would line up the 2 edges it will not guarentee that the "race grooves" will be set correctly against the edges will it? As I tried to say the correct preload (race groove alignment) has to be applied then the 2 surfaces need to be aligned

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I wonder however if you were to support the rear of the bearing on the inner race and then put the straightedge in the position you described the balls should be in a no play position and at this point you should be able to take a measurement and do the business. :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Yes, that is sort of how I imagined it working. But I wonder if gravity alone would give the correct amount of pre-load or not. The other issue is whether ordinary feeler gauges would be accurate enough

Guy Weller

I thought I had explained this previously and earlier on in this thread, but perhaps using some of the technical terms confuses some people. The clue is in the term "face adjusted" as this is exactly what is done. Put simply the two halves of the bearing have the face ground as a pair (yes Guy this is the part of the bearing that abutts the spacer and hub). This needs to be carried out after the tracks of the bearing (the bit the balls run in) have been ground and honed. It is important that it is done after that because the dimension from the centre of the track to the face varies due to production tolerances on a standard bearing. Put simply this means that a track centre at max tolerance would cause the inner race to stick out further and vice versa hence the need to adjust it for our application. Trev

T Mason

Robert (Bob), Looking at the drawings you provided me the specs for the face alignment is given on both the MJT17 and LJT25 bearing as "marked face of outer to be flush to 0.025 above unmarked face of inner when a gauging load of 24.5N is applied to marked face of outer", that would be 0.025mm so 0.001" (as near as dammit). A relatively easy thing to set-up and measure with the right kit which I think I have. I'm not sure what difference the 40 degree would make though to the original 20 degree for that test. I don't have any bearings to test, well don't want to pull the ones in the hubs. Would be interesting to be able to test the alignment of new bearings and see what shows up. Of course with pairs provided in kits if the variation of eacdh could be measured then a swap shop could be organised to arrange proper fitting if the deviation of each can be measured.

David Billington

A few more posts while I was typing. Guy, feeler gauges are not accurate enough for this. Most engineers will know that feeler gauges tend to be on the thick side by a few tenths of a thou. Trev

T Mason

Thanks Trevor. Such a long thread, it is easy to miss a phrase here or there! I wasn't quite sure if face adjustment was by machining the outer surface of one or other race, or by selection of the ball size. I suspected that feelers might not be up to getting this measurement accurately enough. Bob, I see that Norman Kerr notes an axial pre-load of 5.5lbs when taking a check measurement across the bearing faces. http://www.mgexperience.net/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html I had forgotten that I had previously bookmarked his description as a useful "one stop shop" explanation of the various issues.

Guy Weller

yep, Guy's got it! Norm

Norm Kerr

Hi David I have a couple of 40 degree standard "fit" bearings if you would like to have a play. They are as you will understand of no use as they are now? :)) Although I could get 26 quid on ebay no doubt :) Only joking!! E mail me David if you want them to try.

Bob Turbo Midget England

Norm, I am not an engineer, but I have always thought of these front hubs as, in effect, a single large double-race bearing since I first dismantled the front hubs of my A35 van nearly half a century ago. It isn't difficult, and pretty obvious if one simply thinks of them as two ball races bolted together back to back(by the axle and nut)with the hub and spacer as simply rather thick packing pieces holding the races apart! I cannot claim to have understood the issue of angular contact although from a practical, logical view it is obvious enough that the ball bearings cannot just provide support radially - there must be some axial component as well, to keep your wheels in position! The issue of use of face adjusted bearings is really more of a logistical assembly line matter than really to do with engineering. BMC could just as well have used non face adjusted bearings and had engineers set up each hub individually using shims behind the outer races or with the central spacer. But that would have been a slow, expensive process and these cars were put together as fast as possible by assembly line workers, not skilled engineers. Far easier with their buying power for BMC to specify quality face adjusted bearings from specialist suppliers so that the hub components could then just be "whopped" together on the assembly line. Plus of course at that time when service replacements were needed the correct specification bearings were readily available to any normal garage or DIY owner.

Guy Weller

Guy, That is exactly why we have this issue now. Today manufacturers would try and use an off the shelf product and design around it, but this was not the case in days gone by. Most major manufacturers worked closely with their suppliers and because of the volumes required it was not a problem to create whatever they wanted. This was the case even for more complex applications like aerospace or F1 for instance. Their designers and ours would work very closely together. Also designers don't think about what happens in 50 years time, they are more interested in creating the next generation product in the hope that you will buy that before your old one wears out. At the time most of these companies also thought they could carry on in the same old way for ever and never dreamt that they would cease to exist, hence why so few remain today. Trev

T Mason

Robert, I did understand the issue, and still do. I've also learned a whole lot more of interesting stuff on the way. "That is why I coninually asked do you agree that without F A (or whatever term you choose to use) then the wheel would have play?" I'll answer again. I do agree that the bearings supplied originally, that are confirmed as being face adjusted, fit perfectly. I don't necessarily agree that FA ( to save a bit of typing), is absolutely essential to avoid a bit of play, because real life experience seems to suggest otherwise. Hear me out before killing me please :). I agree completely why FA is thought to be deemed necessary, and "perhaps" until now was necessary. Guy, you stole my thunder:) In my earlier post, where I declared the penny had dropped, I deliberately omitted for reasons of brevity (unlike me), the obvious conclusion. Which is exactly what Guy wrote. Instead of using FA bearings, you could simply do as Guy has suggested, and indeed as Fergus and others have done. Make use of shims, or by adjusting the length of the spacer, to "effectively" create the function of a pair of FA bearings. Doing this would obviously have been completely crazy, as basic bearings varied so much, you'd never know which to shim and which needed a shorter or longer spacer, and would have added time and cost. So make it easy by making it all standard, and then assemble it. Very sensible, and Trevor has explained it further. However, now please allow me to come back to the beginning of the thread, because that is the whole point of this thread. Sussex say that over 7 years they have sold their cheaper ( and if cost is to be believed as the sole determinant of them being face adjusted bearings), non face adjusted bearings, without issue. Only one person here at least, has contradicted that, and reported that they had a problem with Sussex bearings. 1 person said that they had a problem with AH spares kit. Others have reported fitting Sussex kit without problems, and still others have reported fitting other suppliers" cheap" bearings kits without issue. I also rang FL, and they told me that in the last year that they had sold 300 bearing kits, again according to the logic, non FA, and they too have had no issues or returns. And the inner bearing supplied by them has the 2mm radius, as per BMC drawing. Well to add to that now, I can tell you that another major supplier, in the last 12 months, has sold 612 kits, out of which they have had ONE return. "IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS, HAS SOLD 612 KITS, OUT OF WHICH THEY HAVE HAD ONE RETURN." Sorry seems worth repeating. How is this possible then, if the kits sold are all non-FA, and yet supposedly, ONLY FA can do the job properly? Something must explain it. Here's my guess at a possible explanation. Returning to the manufacture of these bearings, it is said that they are made to a basic fit and then must be adjusted. In the video link I posted (albeit deep groove), the two parts of the bearings are shown as being machined in pairs, and then separated, hence they are no longer matched pairs, and it is said that the tolerance probably wasn't that good anyway. But these days machinery is far more accurate than it was 50/60 years ago. Isn't it just possible that the process shown, or at any rate the correct process for making angular contact bearings, is in fact so good now that the bearings are very accurately ground. And that even when mixing the bits, this still results in a basic bearing assembly, that is a more accurate product than was possible back when the basic bearings available to BMC were being made? If that is impossible, then there has to be something else that can explain why so many suppliers are selling bearings and so few people are reporting problems. Could it be that the problem is not as bad as it is perceived to be? When the original stocks of original RHPs began to dwindle and escalate in price, maybe the first batches of cheap equivalents stocked by our favourite suppliers, were indeed so poor that the reports of wheel play began to flood the bbs. Robert and others did their investigations and concluded rightly what the problem was. But since then, perhaps there has been a marked improvement in the cheaper bearings being supplied. Maybe, the retailers, getting fed up with complaints and returns, went back to the wholesale suppliers or manufacturers, and came up with a better product, but still at a cheaper price. No doubt there are still some even poorer fitting bearings still around, and perhaps these are the ones, when bought on Ebay or the like, that provide the ammunition that keeps the belief alive, that ALL bearings bought from ALL suppliers that are not original RHP, or circa £100, are not worth buying. As I keep repeating. Mayor retailers, are selling bearing kits, and getting almost zero returns or complaints. I just can't believe they are all lying about this. The whole point of my starting this thread is to get a kind of decisive answer, that would allow an approach to suppliers, and get them to resolve the issue. So far, there isn't any evidence, from a sales and returns point of view, that supports there even being a problem. Unless all the suppliers are lying.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, I think you do make a convincing argument. Bearings may not be specifically face adjusted. But maybe the manufacturing process on modern machines is such that the bearings are being spat out of the machines with little variation and with the inner and outer race faces very close to a true face adjusted bearing. In effect it would make the process of face adjustment obsolete except perhaps for when a higher quality application such as on a race car is needed. The only other issue is that as someone pointed out earlier, there are just as likely to be bearings that are too tight but these may not be as readily detected by most people as they will go together OK and seem to give no excessive play at the rim. As for the very low numbers of returned bearings, since it can be difficult to remove the inner bearing without destroying it, perhaps there are more "faulty" bearings sold than ever get returned. Some would not bother to strip it down again, so long as the MOT man can be persuaded to pass it!

Guy Weller

I agree Guy, it's not completely clear cut. But if you total the figures I know about (assuming they are true), then there are 300 FL, 616 big supplier, and x number from sussex, just in 1 year, and ONLY 1 return. Let's say that Sussex over the 7 year period sell 50 per year. That's very nearly 1000 customers, who have bought the kits, and not returned them. Is it really plausible that 1000 people over the last year, could have bought dodgy bearings, and either not know it, or for reasons of laziness, or fear, or embarassment or some other reason, are reluctant to complain and get their money back? The main reason cited for all this is free play sufficient to fail at MOT, so it seems more likely than not, that if there is such a wide spread problem, it IS being noticed. So again, if these people want their car on the road, they have to fix the problem. That means that they ARE indeed removing the bearings. If so, why aren't they also returning them? " --- the process of face adjustment obsolete except perhaps for when a higher quality application such as on a race car is needed" -- Or in for example high revolution speed machine tools, where accuracy is paramount. But not so essential on the 50/60 year old design of the Spridget wheel hub, which I'm guessing may spin more slowly than a high speed machine tool shaft. But you may be surprised to know that I'm not convinced that there ISN"T a problem. I'm still undecided. I was hoping for a much greater rsponse to say there was a problem, so that the evidence could be used to confront the suppliers or present to Trading Standards. However, where's the evidence? Much is known about the original BMC specified bearing supplied by RHP, and about all modern FA bearings. How much is known about the basic bearings sold by the suppliers? Some say all is known, because you only need the part number. But if some basic bearings are performing well in Spridget hubs, and they appear to be, then it seems to me that not enough is known about the specs of the bearings being sold to condem them.

Lawrence Slater

I do not understand why some people think that modern machinary will be more accurate. This is simply not the case. All mass produced items are and always have been made to a tolerance and in the case of bearings this is a relatively small tolerance. Modern machines just dont need the same level of skill to operate to these levels as the old ones did, although the programmers and setters need to be more skilled. When I was in the industry outsiders were always amazed that we worked to the same tolerances for a 1/2 inch bearing as we did for a 4 foot one, so there is a lot of misconception out there. This doesn't answer Lawrence's question though. I, like Bob and Norm, suspect many of these sets are in fact too tight and dont show premature wear due to the limited mileage of a lot of these cars, or they are slack but as Guy states they get away with it at MOT time. Several people probably dont complain because for the sake of £20 they cant be bothered with the hassle or think they have wrecked the bearing anyway if they remove it again. On the other hand they may be face adjusted, but I notice that no supplier Lawrence has spoken to has clearly stated that they do meet the original specification, just that they have had no returns which tells us nothing in reality. I guess its back to old saying you get what you pay for most of the time although I accept this is not always the case. Trev

T Mason

Hi Trevor, FL assured me that the bearings supplied by them, ARE to the same spec as the original BMC drawings. They pride themselves on OE quality. Can't be much clearer than that. I haven't spoken to all of them but those I have, are saying there isn't a problem. Sussex tell me the bearings are good enough for their race customers to have bought them and not complained. Surely they are a bunch of people who would complain? Also, several or a few people is not the same as 1000 people, all not bothering to complain? Yup we could dismiss this, on price, and not bother to get at the truth. I have no shares in any of the suppliers, but I do have an interest in them staying in business. There are frequent comments about suppliers not being fair and not telling the truth and sticking crap products on sale. Apart from that being unfair if not entirely true, it will also eventually cause people to stop buying their stock, and then where will we all be? On the other hand, if they are misleading all their customers, I think they should all be reported to trading standards. Ultimately Spridget owners would benefit from knowing that what's on offer, would actually be what was written on the tin.

Lawrence Slater

PS. I think you know if the bearings are too tight, long before you have a hot hub and premature wear, even if you only do 500 miles a year. When you fit the bearing in the hub, and then the hub on the axle and torque it to 55lbs, you soon know if it spins freely or not. Now some people might not have a clue, and expect it to spin as if the brakes are applied. However I credit most people with more savvy than that. I think more people than not, would notice if the bearings are too tight.

Lawrence Slater

Robert (Bob), What's your email address as I can't seem to find it. I'd be interested in checking how much the races are proud or not in the bearings you have.

David Billington

Lawrence, In my stating ( and Trev too, I think) that there may well be folk who don't complain - either because the bearing is tight rather than loose, or because although loose it is still OK for MOT (the main criteria to many) or the bearing won't come off again without damage, or they cannot be bothered - None of that was to undermine your point about the very few complaints. The numbers are so low that even if you doubled, or quadrupled the number to allow for the "hidden" non- complainers, then it is indeed still a very low proportion of the bearings being sold.

Guy Weller

I guess in the end the ONLY real test as to whether the Sussex bearings are OK is to by a batch (5 should do), preload them, measure them,'and publish the dimensional variance. Could all chip in to buy them and them run a sweepstake. Winner gets the best set ! Tim

T Dafforn

Hi Guy, I didn't take it as undermining my argument, honestly. I was just emphasising my point, probably without necessity. Hi Tim, I agree. I've been thinking of a way to persuade the suppliers to donate some bearings, rather than have to buy them, but your idea could be a starter if enough people shared the cost so that it was very little per person. Of course, if the bearings could be shown beyond doubt, to be so out of spec that there would be a problem if installed, or there is a problem if actually installed, then money back from the supplier would be inevitable in my view. I see it as in their interests to go along with this. We'd need someone with all the right test equipment of course, and to be fair to the suppliers, I think it might be useful if the test could be performed with them present. You do need to win them over after all. You could even put the bearings in a hub and torque them up to test them, and NOT damage them by removal, so that if they are good in test, then people who need them could have them at maybe reduced cost. How can you take them out without "popping" them, and thereby possibly damaging them? Simple. In another thread I suggested a way to get at the drift pockets. Nobody commented. Well, here's the picture of the solution again. I've been intending to alter one of my spare old but accurately sized spacers to test this. This way, you can install bearings, test them in the real situation, and then access the drift pockets to take the bearings out again with out damage. The other thing I've been thinking of, is to try and get more people to come forward with their experiences, either +ve or -ve. Perhaps an appeal thread, in the general section. Maybe, "New Wheel bearing problems, have you had one"? And then ask people to say what, when and who. Maybe even appeal on a Moggie board too.

Lawrence Slater

Balls of fire, forgot the picture of the spacer alreration.

Lawrence Slater

I didn't realise that the problem was in getting the bearing outer race out of the hub. That has never been a problem for me. I thought it was the inner race sticking on the axle shaft.

Guy Weller

If you put the bearings in the hub, with the spacer, you obscure the drift pockets. If you want to take them out again, you can't, without popping the inner part of one of the bearings (or liquid nitrogen). The easiset to pop is the outer bearing. But this is believed to damage the bearing. I'm not sure that it does, but it's believed to. So cutting a slot in the spacer would allow access to the drift pockets, and the bearings can then be removed complete. The way to prevent NEW bearings from sticking on the spindle when you install the hub, is to make sure the inner bearing is a sliding fit on the spindle in the first place, before you put it in the hub.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, I think a fairly simple piece of machining could produce a 'carrier' for the bearing being tested without damaging them - basically a mimic of the hub, with a 'sliding' fit to the bearing diameter, the bearings being retained by grub screws around the perimeter - similar to the fitment for die holders. May be possible just to machine an existing spare hub. Fit the bearings - then pass a bolt through the centre with washers / nut and tighten - don't think you would need a lot of torque as its only bottoming out solid surfaces. Then use a dti to check end float. R.

richard boobier

<<That's very nearly 1000 customers, who have bought the kits, and not returned them. Is it really plausible that 1000 people over the last year, could have bought dodgy bearings, and either not know it, or for reasons of laziness, or fear, or embarassment or some other reason, are reluctant to complain and get their money back?>> It could be as few as 500 people if they were buying pairs.

Dave O'Neill2

Good spot dave! And a sticker for your math! LOL

Alex G Matla

Well that is all fine but there are some of us (I suspect myself, David Bi Trev and my mate who is an engineering applications director of NSK who do not need to buy bearings to know they do not fit correctly, I thought that had been proved, obviously not!! So I asked the question of NSK why are face adjusted bearings so expensive relatively? The answer is that the face adjustment is a POST production operation that obviously more than quadruples the work involved in manufacture and is a specialised operation. The tolerances for Face adjustment are extremely fine and they are machined to a tollerance of 5 microns. The SUN is the designation for an NSK face adjusted bearing and is normal fit "suN" designated by the N there are other designations that change the N to allow for bearings with more preload. In an application such as a Spridget the preload ought to be neutral and simply be without play. Finally I asked what the normal tollerance would be on standard bearings? Well they would be somewhere in the region of something like plus or minus 10 thou. So as suspected by many occassionally you can get a bearing that is face adjusted, however that would need to be packaged with another that is also spot on, Sadly I am not a quantum mathematician and so can not work out the odds of this occuring but obviously it could occassionally happen. Equally some fittings would be tight! David B my address is rjwelchmidget "at" aol.com Lawrence I understand your quest but why do you not simply ask the suppliers 2 questions? To achieve a correct fit in a Spridget hub do the bearings need to be face adjusted? (I assume you will agree they need to answer this with the word yes) So secondly why are your face adjusted bearings so cheap? BOL. David I think you could work out how much the spacer needs to be adjusted by measuring a pair in the manner we discussed above and then machine or shim accordingly to get a no play fit with cheap standard bearings, I will be interested how you get on mate. Let me know you home address David and I will post the bearings to you. In the past on two occassions I have knocked out one of the inner bearings to allow access to the spacer so that I was able to machine it although it was certainly a hit and miss affair to say the least. Never considered the approach suggested.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"Lawrence I understand your quest but why do you not simply ask the suppliers 2 questions? To achieve a correct fit in a Spridget hub do the bearings need to be face adjusted? (I assume you will agree they need to answer this with the word yes) So secondly why are your face adjusted bearings so cheap?" Good point Bob! Straight to the point see how they answer that? “You get what you pay for”…… Maybe because I'm a grippy Scot and wanted to be refunded for the £20 (or whatever the bearings cost) or maybe because I don't like buying things that aren't fit for purpose but like I already said I did have a problem with a bearing set I bought from Sussex and I returned them and got a refund…and paid for the face adjusted bearings from R&M- I don’t mind paying for expensive parts as long as they fit without having to modify other parts to get them to fit. At the end of the day you should be able to remove the bearings from the hub in a midget etc. etc. fit new ones and refit to the car and they should fit WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL D*CKING ABOUT of spacers etc. should you not? To me OEM means it is should be an EXACT match to the original part but unfortunately as I quite often find with modern car pattern parts that are supposed to be to OEM standards they are not! I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve bought a supposed OEM part from a big local motor factor only to have to return it. A recent case in point was I actually needed a replacement alternator for the Midget in a hurry and the above motor factor had stock but it wasn’t a Lucus alternator or a reconditioned alternator it was a new “DELPHI” Lucas replacement but it needed various parts off my old alternator before it would fit!!! NOT TO OEM STANDARDS THEN!! Like it has already been said unfortunately and it should necessarily be the case but “You get what you pay for”……

M Slater

Hi Richard, I don't have access to any machine equipment beyond a couple of grinders and drills. I do have spare hubs and spacers though. I agree, a mock up of a hub would be great though, for a guide to see if the bearings are ok, and as you suggest, I am considering attacking one of my spare hubs with a grinder, to make a useful portable test hub. Yup Dave I agree, many or all of those 1000 could well have bought a pair. On the other hand, I've replaced only one side of front and rear wheel bearings and oil seals on many cars in the past (I did just my rear offside hub oil seal last week for example). I've also replaced only one side wishbones, track rod ends, wheel cylinders, even s/absorbers and other components on many cars in the past etc. That's what people do, esp' the tight ones like me, that like to squeeze all the life out of things before dumping them. But say we compromise on 750? But in any event 500 is still a significant number, with so few returns. Hi Robert, "who do not need to buy bearings to know they do not fit correctly, I thought that had been proved, obviously not!!" Correct. "Obviously not". Obviously not, because the suppliers are saying that there is no evidence that there is anything wrong with their bearings. So it comes back to either accusing the suppliers of lying(or all being fools), or trying to find out why, out of all their collective sales, practically nobody is sending them back. So I'll ask you, and everybody else again. Who says the suppliers are lying? Back it up, and we can take them all to trading standards and resolve the issue once and for all. Robert. Do you accuse the suppliers of lying? Let's assume they are telling the truth. Then the conclusions that can be drawn, are that either the greater majority of the bearings are good (little or no returns), or that the greater majority of the customers are fools, or lazy, or combinations of both, for not noticing, and or bothering to report, that they have bought crap bearings and return them, or at least complain about it. Let's assume they are all lying. Then Leacys Moss Sussex, Bhive, Minispares Frontline, Unipart, AH spares, and many more I haven't listed, are all selling poorly fitting bearings, for little money, and hoping nobody will notice. Great business practice that. It is simply NOT credible that they are lying. From their point of view, there's nothing wrong. From the so few negative reports here, apart from maths and engineering principles, there is no evidence to say there is anything wrong. They are selling bearings, and they aren't getting returns. So it's reasonable to consider the distinct possiblility, that you can indeed buy a cheaper bearing, that has not been specifically face adjusted, and yet will fit without play or be too tight, irrespective of if the quantum of odds appear to be against it. Simply because, that is exactly what appears to be the case. If you make a cake out of ingredients that sound as if they will make you vomit, and yet it turns out to taste ok and not poison you, you may be surprised, but you can still eat the cake. "Lawrence I understand your quest but why do you not simply ask the suppliers 2 questions? To achieve a correct fit in a Spridget hub do the bearings need to be face adjusted? (I assume you will agree they need to answer this with the word yes) So secondly why are your face adjusted bearings so cheap?" I did. The first answer(s) suggested that the term face adjusted wasn't entirely familiar or understood, but none the less the bearings matched OE specs, which certainly from FL meant that they must have been face adjusted. The second answer, dependant on the first, was that they have negotiated good prices. Calling all you spridget owners out there Usa, Aus, Eu, anywhere. Alex, Arie, Onno. How many, and whose front wheel bearings have you fitted, and what were the results, and when did you buy and fit them? Ah well I guess it doesn't matter after all then. I certainly don't need any front wheel bearings, I've got plenty of original RHP spares. I'll be dead before they're worn out. What do I care if people on here have a front wheel bearings issue. So next time someone starts or revives a thread about front wheel bearings, tell them to pay circa 100 quid per side, don't complain about it, and don't touch the spridget suppliers with a barge pole, cause they're all charlatans, who just want to sell you front wheel bearings that don't fit (even if they're not, and they might). Then when the spridget suppliers stop selling the cheaper bearings, and the prices of NSK and SKF go even higher, --- Well tough titty aint it. None of my business. :)

Lawrence Slater

"Like it has already been said unfortunately and it should necessarily be the case but “You get what you pay for”…… " Yeah? Not me. When someone pushes in at the front of the queue, I don't stand at the back moaning to the next bloke. I go to the front and tell the interloper to #$#$ off. Might get me killed one day, but until then -------. If I get ripped off, I also act accordingly. Guess I'm alone in this then. Whatever. :)

Lawrence Slater

Yes, I've had my share of rubbish bearings. I've sorted it out by measuring and adapting the spacer. But then again, I'm an engineer and know what I do (I think...) Don't know from wich supplier though, got them via my mate from the MGworkshop over here. And I don't blame him!

Alex G Matla

Thanks Alex.

Lawrence Slater

Forgot to ask Alex. Have you also had any good "cheap" non original rhp front wheel bearings?

Lawrence Slater

Nope. No good cheap bearings, only with much play.

Alex G Matla

Lawrence, If you want a spacer jig turned up to do some measuring I can do it for you when I get some free time. Only one problem I don't have an off cut of Ali bar of suitable diameter - 70 to 75 mm would be nice - anybody got a bit spare say 50mm long ? R.

richard boobier

Lawrence let me tell you this as I have been since day 1 They do not fit at that price It is not because the bearings are sub standard it is because they are the wrong spec NSK and SKf and many others all make bearings that will take out the play in front wheel bearings but they will all be expensive NSK are no more expensive than anyone else. Finally the suppliers are not lieing they are simply ignorant!! that in my opinion is not lieing it is simply they do not know any better. They already have told you this when you asked them the question. ""I did. The first answer(s) suggested that the term face adjusted wasn't entirely familiar or understood,"" does this sound like someone who knows what they are talking about? Why do some people fit tapers? because when they fit normal bearings they get play!! If you want to take them to court for being ignorant then I will testify in your favour :) when are we going? By the way loads of parts for our cars are sold everyday that do not satisfy the purchaser, we send them back and receive a refund and that is that, we never take them to trading standards? why not? why is this case any different? By the way I have really enjoyed this thread, it is great.

Robert John Welch

I found a spurious-looking, no-name bearing kit in the garage...

Dave O'Neill2

Guess what's inside...

Dave O'Neill2

Lucky you Dave.:). I think you are about to be bombarded with requests for a price. On the matter of the cheap bearing kits on sale. GHK1142, is as far as I know a BMC description of the original front wheel bearing kit for Spridgets. So the kit should be, 20 degree, 2mm radius, and face adjusted,(BMC, specification, as the OEM), and be just the same spec as the bearings that Dave just posted pics of. So, if all the kits on sale, using the description GHK1142, or equivalent don't meet the oem specification, then not only can you get your money back, but the seller can be required to change the description. I spoke with another well known supplier today, and guess what? They wouldn't sell something that didn't fit properly. They WERE aware of some issues with these bearings, and for a while they weren't available. But that issue has been resolved, and they are confident that the kit they sell as GHK1142, will fit, and will be neither too loose, or too tight. They've gone to the trouble of ensuring that the kit fits properly. It's £21.54 inc vat, plus postage. I'm going to email the head honcho, and see what response I can get in writing. As I understand it, ignorance is not an excuse in law as applied to the sale of goods and services. However, leaving ignorance aside, misrepresenting something is an infringement of trading standards and may even be a criminal offence, if you knew you were doing it. Robert John, (or Midget Turbo?) I can't find your previous post. I wish you, and others had come forward to state categorically, from first hand experience, that you know the kits on sale don't fit. That's why I started this thread. I've asked previously in other front wheel bearing threads for people who complained about poor fit in the front wheel bearings to say who the supplier was, and nobody did. Alex has now added to the very short list of people who say from first hand experience that the bearings don't fit. Maybe it's exactly as Robert(Bob) says. All the cheap bearings are not fit for purpose, and the majority of you that have bought them can prove that. So why don't you come forward and name the supplier? Mark I understand your desire to remain on good terms with Sussex, and I'll respect that. However, I fail to see what your worried about. If Sussex are unaware, along with all the other suppliers, that they are selling something that not only falls foul of consumer protection law, but probably more importantly to them, drives their customer away, I think they would welcome being told about it. Robet John "By the way loads of parts for our cars are sold everyday that do not satisfy the purchaser, we send them back and receive a refund and that is that, we never take them to trading standards? why not? why is this case any different?" "we send them back and receive a refund and that is that, we never take them to trading standards? why not?" Maybe because at the time, you believed that you were just unlucky, and the seller was very nice about it. You had no reason to believe that ALL the customers that bought this item had exactly the same problem. Or maybe you DID know, because you later found out that others had exactly the same problem, but simply don't care that much. Now that kind of surprises me. I often read on the general thread how this is a helpful and supportive community of spridget owners. Somebody goes go to the trouble of documenting in great detail exactly how this and that works, and when an item such as front wheel bearings causes issues, you investigate to the nth degree, the ins and outs of it. Now that takes commitment and effort. And yet, you(collective) sit back in an effective silent apathy, as suppliers continue to supply a product that you know is not fit for purpose. Of course you emphasise with the next poor sod that got caught out, but won't do anything to prevent it by raising it with the suppliers. "Why is this case any different?" Because unlike one rouge supplier, selling one poor product, or occasionally all suppliers "temporarily" selling a poor product, this is ongoing, and has according to the dates of the threads, been going on for years. I'm also quite surprised at myself. Why am I bothered? I don't even need the bearings. And, to be completely honest, I don't really care that much if other people are getting ripped off at the extreme, and at the least inconvenienced. I think I just got fed up with people posting in threads about this, and nobody doing anything about it. Maybe it's just getting boring, reading that Fred or John or whoever, has just fitted their new front wheel bearings to "jane" or "pinky", and she's not happy because "her" wheels are wobbling, and the MOT is due after 200 years of restoration work in a freezing cold garage in lake district, or the like. But hey, never mind, we can all have another groan and or a laugh when it happens to the next unsuspecting Spridget owner. We can all say, "told you so". And when they say, but I'm a new owner and never read the bbs that said the cheap bearings aren't any good. We can all say, never mind, that's life. Welcome to the world of Spridget ownership.

Lawrence Slater

emphasise? N0. I meant empathise. Thats the trouble with spell check, in place of proof read.

Lawrence Slater

Is it raining where you are Lawrence?

Guy Weller

I think a number of people have done a lot about it yet obviously these things are ignored and the whole process begins again. This is normal on this kind of BBS, punters tend to want to believe the easy solutions rather the ones that whilst more difficult actually solve the issue. For example Someone describes a problem that is obviously the clutch is toast. They are told the clutch is toast but others intervine with commens such as My car was doing that until I pumped up the tyres? Mine did that and it was the condensor try changing that? My guess is that the rota arm is not a red one from the distributor doctor. Now what happens is that the correct problem identification is swallowed up in the other rubbish and all the other solutions are easy so they tend to get tested first.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I have 4 of the GHK1142 kits in Unipart packaging. All unused. I cannot remember where or when I bought them, but at 2 different times I suspect. I wouldn't have complained about them not fitting properly though as the packaging isn't opened so I have never tried them. There's another reason for so few complaints to the suppliers! I wonder how many other kits exist, bought for a future not yet got roundtuit job.

Guy Weller

Guy, rain forcast, but not materialised. :) Sunny spells instead. Quite pleasant actually. How long ago did you get the Unipart boxes? The "Unipart" kit I looked at recently came in FL boxes. It's my guess that yours will be RHP kits. You might as well open them to find out. Because if you want to sell them, you might get hassle if the buyer later returns them if they don't fit properly. Yes I take your point, but this has been ongoing for years, and clearly people have been opening the pack because they've been fitting them and posting in threads. I'm just asking for those who have opened the packs and fitted the beqarings with poor results, to come forward so something can be done abuout it. Which nicely leads to. "I think a number of people have done a lot about it yet obviously these things are ignored and the whole process begins again" Who? Whose tackled it with the suppliers to prevent it? Norm tried, but didn't get a response. Was that followed up? "Someone describes a problem that is obviously the clutch is toast. --- They are told the clutch is toast but others intervine with commens such as ---- My car was doing that until I pumped up the tyres?" Sadly that is all too true, and sometimes makes me laugh, but often annoys me. But the issue here is clear. So why don't we(collective) do something about it, once and for all. So that anyone purchasing a wheel bearing kit, knows in advance EXACTLY if it is correctly specified or not. Then if you prefer cheap that's ok. Maybe I'm just too principled.

Lawrence Slater

Just asking about the weather as I thought from your lengthy post that you were trapped indoors and couldn't go out to play! All 4 boxes are the normal red, white and blue Unipart boxes. On one I have written July 2008. I think two of the other 3 boxes are a few years older, but identical. The bearings kits themselves are sealed in plastic bags and I don't want to open them until needed. But I can see that the larger bearings are RHP ones and carry the magic 39LJT25 number. The bags have a sticker with U3677 on it and the box has GHK1924. What are FL boxes?

Guy Weller

Now I am curious Who is this? ""I spoke with another well known supplier today, and guess what? They wouldn't sell something that didn't fit properly. They WERE aware of some issues with these bearings, and for a while they weren't available. But that issue has been resolved, and they are confident that the kit they sell as GHK1142, will fit, and will be neither too loose, or too tight. They've gone to the trouble of ensuring that the kit fits properly. It's £21.54 inc vat, plus postage"" And what was the previous problem they identified? And what manufacturer of bearings are they supplying? Simple questions, once answered, the result of fitting will be known.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Easy to work out from the price.

Dave O'Neill2

Been working long shifts the past few days so have got a bit behind on this. Lawrence, sorry I had forgotten that you quoted FL as saying they matched original spec. Not sure how they or anyone else could match original spec without the drawing though. I may be wrong but I would suggest somebody measured the bearings and came up with the 7000 series as matching not knowing about the face adjustment. I concur with Bobs mate about how far out standard bearings could be. Whilst I agree most people would not leave them if they were binding it is perfectly possible that they have insufficient clearance but still turn OK leading to premature wear. On the subject of no returns apart from anyone who couldnt be bothered to return them several people on here, and so no doubt several more on top have chosen to shorten the spacer/shim it to achieve a decent fit. I think I heard somewhere this is what Brown and Gammons do, but cant confirm that. Personally although I dont want to spend money needlessly I'm with Bob on this one and would only buy NOS or the 40 degree NSK ones. Sometimes its just false economy to buy pattern parts and I have chosen to pay more than I needed to for several Midget spares just to avoid the hassle of them not fitting correctly or being inferior quality. Trev

T Mason

Not really been following this since about post 50 or something, but could we have another front bearing thread that hits 200 posts?! :-) Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Yes, if another two people post! ;o)

Dave O'Neill2

I have a QH wheel bearing kit bought in 1990 as spare for race meetings- is it now rare and worth a fotune? 199th post!

m fairclough

Guy, check out my post on 08 June 2012 at 18:47:06 UK time for the FL boxes. Robert, I was asked not to print the name until I've had more conversation, however, as Dave said, google the price. It brings the bacon home nicely so to speak. "And what was the previous problem they identified? And what manufacturer of bearings are they supplying?" Precisely the questions I'm asking. The first as I understand it, was about fit, and hence from what I could tell by my conversation with the sales person, that led to the kits being unavailable for a short while, --- perhpaps fairly recently I think, but don't know yet for certain. Trevor, I generally agree about pattern parts, however, I buy loads of Morrisons and Tesco own stuff. :) Whoops, 200.

Lawrence Slater

What more conversation do they need? If the kit is original spec then why do they not broadcast it from the roofs? Why are they so shy? I can only wonder?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I have today tried to measure the standard bearings to determine how much would need to be removed from the spacer to achieve a no play fit. I supported the bearing from the rear on one of my larger sockets. I then put a straight edge across and measured the gap on the outside race to the straight edge. It was a bit strange at first and after 2 or 3 attempts I got a reading of 4 thou. The I realised that the outer race was tilting and to address this issue I used 2 sets of feeler gauges to hopefully get a much more accurate reading. I ended up with 2 thou as the figure Strangely the other bearing was exactly the same so I would imagine that if I reduced the spacer by 4 thou I would get a good result when fitted. I class myself as a good theoretical engineer who is poor practically thus I am sending this pair of bearings to David B who is far more competent than me and will measure them for me. :) See photo of my effort

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Here is my single feeler gauge effort

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob, I did offer to turn up a sort of jig so the bearings could be checked as a pair without damage - just need a slice of largish ali bar. See earlier post. R.

richard boobier

Thanks Lawrence, not hear of First Line before. You didn't comment on my bearing kit part numbers. GHK1924, not the GHK1142 you quote. My GHK1924 kits contain the 39LTJ25 bearings. So the 1142 kits must presumably be different in some way. I wonder if a parts number catalogue would clarify why the difference and apparent change from GHK1924 around 4 years ago, to GHK1142 now?

Guy Weller

Yes I saw that Richard, but I wanted to see if I could actually know prior to assembly what would be required to be machined off the spacer. How does your idea of using a ally post function?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi Richard, Yup sorry I too forgot in all the words to thank you for offering to make a jig. How would it look? I was imagining altering a hub, so that there would be an inspection hole to look and measure through, Ally pipe anyone? Guy, sorry didn't think to comment. There seem to have been a couple of changes in part numbers. There is also Unipart GHK130 as well as 1142, and the current 1924. When I rang Unipart a couple of weeks ago, I was told that all their numbering systems had changed, not just this kit. I was also given the numbers for the single items. Outer is GHB128 Inner is GHB 129 Also, a thought just struck me. When I rang Unipart, and asked about stock, I was directed to my local Unipart official outlet, as listed on the Unipart website. When I saw the kit they ordered I was surprised to see it in a firstline wrapper. However, I now realise that the store I went to is no longer an official Unipart store. They've gone independant, although they sell Unipart stuff, as well as other stuff. So it seems possible that when I gave them the number UGCGHK1924, they cross referenced, and got it from somewhere other than Unipart. The FL box has the QH number on it too. Why would Unipart be advertising for FL? I've never bought a unipart product before and found a QH box inside for eaxmple. I'm wondering if a Unipart box would have a different contents again. So I'm going to ring Uipart and ask them if they are now selling FL stuff. Robert, I tried that kind of thing with a set of RHP originals that have been in service for quite a while, but had no play when mounted in the hub. I placed the inner bearing, on a properly machined flat metal surface, face down, as it would be in the hub, and pressed hard onto the inner race to engage the balls firmly against the outer race. The inner race was free to turn without contacting the flat metal surface. I was getting about 3 or so thou between the inner race and the flat metal block. If the 3 thou is right, should there be wheel wobble or too tight? But the assembled hubs were good, not tight and not loose. Could just be my useless attempt at measuring it though.

Lawrence Slater

Sorry Law I dont understand your test? doesn't make sense to me?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Probably the easiest methos is to alter an existing hub by making the bearings an easy fit and securing them with grub screws around the perimeter. Pass a bolt with suitable washers and nut to replicate the stub axle - mount the bolt ridgidly and push/pull the hub in and out measuring movements with a DTI - this should give the total bearing freeplay for both bearings i.e exactly as on the car but without the risk of damaging the bearings grtting them out etc. Well that was what I was trying to describe - using an old hub saves a lot of machining etc. R.

richard boobier

Robert, I should have taken a picture. Maybe I'll take one tomorrow, but Richards idea sounds way better. Anyway, imagine the inner bearing in the hub, and it's inner race pressed tight against the flat of the , as the bolt is tightened up. I was trying to simulate that, and measure the difference if any between the face of the outer race, and the face of the inner race, as the bearing lies flat against a flat surface, in the same orientation that it sits in the hub. Confused? I'm not surprised. Me too. lol.

Lawrence Slater

Forgot to note the spacer needs to be present also ! Probably obvious anyhow ! R.

richard boobier

Good way of checking bearings for use with that particular spacer and hub combination. And may be universally valid, but that would depend on how standard the hub and spacer were. Which of course opens up a whole new can of worms. What was the machining tolerance on those components? ! The spacers are supposed to be 1.5", so too, presumably, the back to back separation of the outer race housings in the hub. Why can one not just bolt a pair of bearings together back to back with a large bolt and washers. And then measure the gap between the adjacent faces of the outer bearings by pushing a feeler gauge down between them.

Guy Weller

Guy, because you'd need identical bearings. So two inners and two outers. The spacers act as a reducer. But that's a really good point Guy. How about the tolerance of the spacers in the hubs? were they "face adjusted" so to speak?

Lawrence Slater

Ah yes, of course! Different sizes!! Doh!!!

Guy Weller

Interesting i was at orchard restorations open day yesterday and was chatting to the guys there about wheel bearings and issues they have experienced. Now they mainly restore big healeys but do dabble with the odd spridget. They get there bearings from AH spares and yes they just shim them up to fit the hubs when they are doing a rebuild. I checked the boxes they had in stock and they were the 7000 series bearings one marked GHK 1142!BTW I have a unipart kit marked GHK 1142 I bought about 10 years ago and that has the correct RHP bearings. Not certain what the GHK 1924 is for.

Bob Beaumont

That is the test I have tried to do above and found a figure of 4thou The technique I used seems to hold water and would be IMO the easiest to perform by any individual with no specialist equipment. I too have considered the accuracy of the hub and the spacer, as suggested it would need to be spot on. Seems incredible that they were although when I have fitted face adjusted bearings the fit has been perfect suggesting the hub and spacer are perfect also. On top of that if BMC could not get the hub and spacer manufactured to such tollerance why would they bother spending huge amounts of cash specifying expensive bearings?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I'm not sure about GHK1924 either. I've been buying GHK1142 for 20 years or so.

Dave O'Neill2

Has anyone tried to work out what a given amount of slack in the bearings translates to as run out at the wheel rim? If a certain amount of "slack" is acceptable at the wheel rim, then this presumably equates to some bearing slack. It may have been easier and cheaper for BMC to specify face adjusted bearings, knowing that there was already some variation in the hub and spacer components, and having to keep the total variation within an acceptable limit.

Guy Weller

Well, as said earlier, I have 4 boxes of GHK1924 and they contain RHP bearings 39LJT25. 2 boxes came from my local motor factors (Partco) in 2008.

Guy Weller

One thing this thread has got me thinking about is why did BMC choose to use this set up rather than taper rollers, which most others manufacturers used. I wonder if it has anything to do with the relationship between them and RHP, as we didnt make taper rollers, Timkin being the main supplier of them. Trev

T Mason

This set-up was presumably first used on the Morris Minor in 1948.

Dave O'Neill2

Or more likely from the Austin Seven, c1924 which used similar paired ball bearings with a spacer.

Guy Weller

I presume the use of the bearings as specified by BMC, or whoever they were before that, was down to cost, it being a simple procedure to assemble and torque the bearings with no careful setting so requiring less skilled workers for that part of the procedure so leading to lower overall cost even if the bearings were more expensive, I could be wrong. Much the same these days with the cartridge bearings used in many modern hubs, fit torque done. Trev, You mentioned earlier in the thread about manufacturers using more standard bearings these days, do you know that to be true. I got the impression that as they deal with such large numbers they still used many effectively special bearings. While a few years old these days I was asked to do some life calcs for rear hub bearings as used on Ford Sierra/Granada and contacted SKF and was told they were specials supplied to Ford but they provided all the usual technical details. I've seen many other examples of auto bearings with special features, typically larger radii, that indicate manufacturers getting non standard bearings made for an application.

David Billington

David, we are of like mind on this: "The issue of use of face adjusted bearings is really more of a logistical assembly line matter than really to do with engineering. BMC could just as well have used non face adjusted bearings and had engineers set up each hub individually using shims behind the outer races or with the central spacer. But that would have been a slow, expensive process and these cars were put together as fast as possible by assembly line workers, not skilled engineers. Far easier with their buying power for BMC to specify quality face adjusted bearings from specialist suppliers so that the hub components could then just be "whopped" together on the assembly line."

Guy Weller

crap, this thread is getting so long that it is becoming hard to keep up if you want to measure a bearing for face adjustment, be sure to use a 5.5# load on the bearing, as per the drawing, otherwise the measurements won't mean much. Norm

Norm Kerr

Kit numbers: the October 2004 Unipart catalogue (MMM 1170/04) states GHK1924. no mention of 1142. I'll maybe list all the cross-references when I have time a bit later.

David Smith

UGCGHK1924, is part of the new Unipart numbering system, that equates it to GHK 1142. GHK 1142, has long been used to described the kit containing the two bearings made by RHP, that were made to the specifications we now all know so well. From the Unipart Automotive website. "All service products supplied by Unipart Automotive have an Original Equipment (O.E) matching quality guarantee and meet the requirements of Block Exemption. This allows independent garages to carry out servicing and maintenance on a car without invalidating the vehicle manufacturer’s warranty, provided the garage follows the vehicle assembler’s schedules." I just had a very informative conversation with a chap at Unipart customer relations. He told me, that they didn't necessarily supply OE matched products anymore. The reason being that some OE products, such as in the case of our old cars, simply aren't being made any more. Also, Unipart Automotive, now being very similar to other companies these days, they (unipart) go out into the market and source things from many places. --- Including Firstline. As we know Firstline are another company, who claim OE matching. However, the pictures I posted below, show that the kit supplied, by Unipart, via Firstline, and in a box marked FBK011 and GHK1924, contained a modern bearing, that according to the numbers, was NOT OE matched. And yet, there is that statement. Both Firstline AND Unipart, claim on their websites to supply OE matched products. The Unipart customer relations chap told me, that even if it was not OE matched, because the product is no longer made, the product that was supplied by them in it's place, should definitely fit properly. I told him it didn't and couldn't, because it is made to a subtly different specification. He said I needed to talk to one of the engineers at Unipart, who would be very interested to hear that. I now have the name of a Unipart engineer who started his life at MG. I'll call him later in the week and see what he has to say about it. I've also just had another conversation with technical at Firstline. I explained the problem again, and they are going to go back the supplier and ask specifically if the bearings supplied as FBK011, are face adjusted. He was open minded, and understood the problem. It still may yet be, that the FL kit at least is being made to the correct spec, as it does have the correct 2mm radius. Hopefully I'll get some answers later this week. In the end, if it can be shown that the bearings NOW sold as GHK1142, or FBK011 or whatever, do not match the necessary specification, they will have to change the description. Either that, or the likes of Firstline and Unipart might start to stock the correct bearings, and hopefully at a cheaper price than 100 quid a side.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, I have learnt so much from following this thread, including why I couldn't reactivate a thread being a Firefox user. I admire you for being so dogged in refusing to stop until all the questions are answered. Thanks to everyone who has contributed and best of luck with finding definitive answers to the questions.

Ray Rowsell

Lawrence, "All service products supplied by Unipart Automotive have an Original Equipment (O.E) matching quality guarantee and meet the requirements of Block Exemption. This allows independent garages to carry out servicing and maintenance on a car without invalidating the vehicle manufacturer’s warranty, provided the garage follows the vehicle assembler’s schedules." I may be being picky here but the above statement could be read two ways. My way would suggest that they may match on quality but not necessarily on specification. David, I'm not saying they never use specials these days, just not so regularly. I also think I have heard somewhere that SKF and Ford had an arragement that only Ford sold some bearings which were deemed specials but could be bought over the counter anywhere if you knew what you needed (cant remember but think it may have related to the Sierra). Trev

T Mason

Slightly off topic this, but a few years ago I went to a bearing supplier for some bearings for a type 9 gearbox. I took the old bearing in and asked them to match it. He looked up the numbers and found the correct part. But then said that item was flagged in the catalogue and that they were not allowed to sell that particular one because of some agreement with Ford. He then offered me another bearing, that he said was an equivalent alternative. I presume that it had some subtle difference that side-stepped he copywrite agreement.

Guy Weller

Ray, glad someone is finding it useful. lol. Guy, that's what I was wondering after my first conversation with Firstline. The product manager I spoke to also mentioned possible copywrite issues when I asked him why the RHP number wasn't on the bearings. Now though we know that FL are selling a bearing kit of the the 7000B series. Could RHP have had patent rights on the exact specifications for the Spridget bearings? If the bearing you were offered for the Type9 g/box, was a DIRECT equivalent, obviously there wouldn't be a problem. However, it seems to be the case (irrespective of the suppliers claims), that the GHK1142 now on offer, is not a direct equivalent. But then again, neither are the face adjusted NSK or SKF bearings. Both of those are 40 degree, and not 20 degree. Although they are not a direct equivalent though, they do fit and function properly. That's the crucial difference I guess. I just noticed Bob Beaumonts post from a little earlier about AH spares. XSUF221:BEARING-outer O.E.Part No:GHB128 XSUF220:BEARING-inner O.E.Part No:GHB129 I wonder if AH are aware, and telling their customers that the bearings they are selling, rewuire to be shimed to make them fit properly? Nothing in their advert suggests modifications needed. I think I'll ask them. --- Tomorrow, when they are open again. :)

Lawrence Slater

"I may be being picky here but the above statement could be read two ways. My way would suggest that they may match on quality but not necessarily on specification." Hi Trevor, I think it could be argued that stating OE at all, is to suggest the product will not just be of the same quality, but will perform the same. In the case of a bearing of the same quality, but of a different specification, I think any reasonable person would justifiably feel misled, if the bearing did not fit properly. The chap I spoke to at unipart customer services agreed with me on that point. I think trading standards will too, -- when I go there, if neccessary. BTW. Does anyone have documentation relating the part number GHK1142, DIECTLY to the original BMC/BL/AUSTIN/MORRIS specified RHPbearing kit, or it's contents? What I'm getting at is this. GHK1142, is the well known ID for a bearing kit for Spridgets and Minors. It contains bearings with the part numbers GHB128 and GHB129. When RHP were alive, those were always RHP bearings. So it's reasonable to expect RHP bearings when getting such a kit. Or is it? Since NSK(RHP) are no longer making the exact spec, and old stock is dwindling fast, then using GHK112 can be construed as misleading. But to proves that, we need some documentation that links GHK1142 to RHP bearings. Where did the GHK1142 and GHB128/129 designations come from originally?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence anyone can make any bearing they choose to make at whatever specification they choose to make, however I suspect they can not call their product the same as someone else's, thus we deal with equivalents. However in this case the equivalents are not exactly the same for whatever reason and that is this issue. Thankfully we are getting to the point where you will begin to agree with the facts that a company selling a kit for such a little prize can not be selling a specification that fits correctly. Now ironically if sa a kit for sale at £100 then I would be wondering if it was the real deal. I look forward to the final chapter of this excercise.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Interesting excerpt from the BMH website regarding licensing, trade marks, part numbers, etc. "The use of Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) part numbers and trade marks by non-OE suppliers is also regulated by The Control of Misleading Advertising Regulations which deal with misleading or unacceptable comparative advertising in the UK. This prohibits the use of such part numbers and trade marks by a non-OE supplier to create an association between the non-OE supplier and the OEM to the extent that customers associate the reputation of the OE parts with the products distributed by the non-OE supplier and can attract the attention of Trading Standards." Link... http://www.bmh-ltd.com/trademarks-useof.htm

Dave O'Neill2

Thanks for that Dave, that confirms my feeling that if OE is quoted, then it's reasonable to expect the same specification, and if it's not, there are grounds to complain about it. Being fair to both FL and Unipart though, both were concerned when I told them that their product might not be OE specifications, and are willing to check it out. Robert, When I first read the posts in other threads talking about ill fitting bearings, my reaction was to believe it and read all that you and others had researched. I then also posted that you won't get a correctly fitting bearing, unless you got NOS or the NSK/SKF face adjusted bearings you and others were quoting. However, not everyone agreed, so I decided to talk to the suppliers. If they were selling so many bearings that didn't fit, I still find it difficult to believe that they wouldn't have had plenty of returns, and then even more difficult to believe that they would have deliberately lied to me about it. Why would FL Unipart, and others risk criminal proceedings for the sake of one product, that doesn't cost much? I think what has emerged, is that some at least, of the cheap bearings do fit. Several people here have said so. If some fit, how many more fit? Now maybe that's just the pure chance of the manufacturing process, and if that's the picture that's emerged, then that is something to work with. The task then (I think) is to get the suppliers to recognize this, and tell their customers that the bearing kits they sell for circa 20-30 quid, won't necessarily fit without requiring modifications to the hub. --- Or start stocking kits that DO always fit. Meanwhile as you have said, and I don't disagree, is that if you want to be completely certain of the bearing fit, get NOS rhp, or pay circa 100 quid per side and get NSK/SKF. However, if you don't mind a bit of effort, you can try the cheaper kits, because some of them do fit, and you might get lucky. If you're not lucky, you can get you're money back.

Lawrence Slater

"Where did the GHK1142 and GHB128/129 designations come from originally?" These are Unipart numbers - Unipart was formed in 1974 (source: Wikipedia). The MG Midget Service Parts List (2nd Edition - AKD1879) gives the bearing part numbers as: Outer - 2A4148 Inner - 2A4299 these numbers were current in 1963 as disc brakes are depicted and were introduced in October 1962.

David Smith

wow 237 posts!

Dave Brown

oops, David, I think there's a typo in one of your part numbers: the Outer was originally BMC part number 2A4178 (not 48). These numbers are shown on the RHP drawings that were referenced earlier. Regarding "OEM equivalent" parts, in my experience, you guys are taking the text from a vendor's literature way too literally. It is commonly, and widely used practice to sell parts that are "close enough that the average user won't be able to tell the difference" as "OEM equivalent". Even the OEMs do this, to keep down their service parts storage costs. They find the nearest equivalent and substitute it when possible. This always carries with it some degree of risk, as the engineer (or clerk) charged with making that decision might have missed a dimension, or a note on the drawing. I suspect that is what has happened in this case. One big vendor did the substitution (maybe Unipart), and the others have all followed suit. Since they don't hear many complaints they don't see an issue. Frankly, there is plenty of anecdotal information contained in this thread to show that most motorists are not bothered enough to report it. At least not in the numbers enough to cause the vendors to notice. This implies to me that we are, while being careful about doing the strictly correct thing, are also possibly blowing this issue up larger than it needs to be? I stand by my original conclusion: for the best, "fit and forget" solution, buy the original RHP bearings, at whatever their price (NOS does still seem to exist at lower prices, based on folk's findings in this thread). They are clearly marked with the RHP part numbers. For folks who like to gamble, try the cheaper ones, and see how it turns out. Some will be fine, others will have an issue. Probably, most with an issue will not be overly inconvenienced by it even if they drive it like that for miles and miles (wobbly wheel or radius interference, either one). Some clever folks will be able to shim theirs. I still hope that the Firstline bearings turn out to be true equivalents to the RHP ones, as their price is very nice, and someone said they've got the proper 2mm radius, the ONLY other bearing out there, so far, besides the RHP originals with that. So all that's left is a confirmation about face adjustment (and that is easily enough confirmed, by someone with the proper measuring tools and a 5.5lb weight). Norm

Norm Kerr

On my electronic version of the parts lists, as well as 2A4148 & 2A4299, elsewhere is quotes GHB128 & GHB129. Trev

T Mason

Hi Norm, "blowing this issue up larger than it needs to be?" Well the fact is, that the subject keeps coming up doesn't it. Hardly a month goes by without a question about the correct bearings to buy. I posted about my reasons for digging into it a little way back so I won't rehash them. As regards OEM advertising, Dave posted the quote that explains that use of OEM in advertising -- in the UK, is covered under "The Control of Misleading Advertising Regulations which deal with misleading or unacceptable comparative advertising in the UK." Someone has bothered to draft and implement legislation to protect the unwary from this very situation. Reputable companies adhere to it, because it enhances their reputation. Unscrupulous ones use it to con people. FL and Unipart are the former, the other suppliers are not claiming OE directly, but that was why I was asking about the use of the part numbers GHK1142 and the like. If it could be shown that GHK1142 etc, are in effect, OE part numbers, then any reasonable person would therefore assume an OE spec when buying a product with such a number. That can be taken to our trading standards and used to force the suppliers to state EXACTLY what they are selling. A useless venture? Not to me, but then again I'm just me, and not anybody else. If I am, with the help of others, to succeed, then surely everyone benefits. Trevor, David, is the MG service parts list and official MG/BMC/BL publication? Does it link the original part numbers AND the Unipart GHK/GHB numbers? From the Unipart website. "The Unipart Group was created from the parts operation of British Leyland, a state-run business" So it seems to me that the part number GHK1142, which has been around for as long as I can remember --- (I bought my Sprite in1977, Unipart were formed in 1972), is synonymous with original bearings, and therefore the original specifications for those bearings. It seems to me that if a bearing is sold as GHK1142, it is reasonable to expect it to be the correct specification, without the need to enquire. It's an OE part number, and as such anyone using it to sell a product it should be covered by the legislation above. Now you might all think I'm barking mad, but for the hell of it, I'm going to pursue this, and anyone who want to assist will be most welcome. All I need is information, such as instances of purchase etc, and anything else that is considered helpful. On another tack, looking for other alternative bearings, I read this on a Moggie website. These are said to be Timken numbers. Anyone familiar? 1962-1959 Minor: roller bearing conversion Seal (inner) 471192[2] Bearing Assy (inner) 30205M[2] 2 1 Bearing Assy (outer) 30303[2] Do these numbers mean anything to anyone?

Lawrence Slater

October 2004. Moss Price guide. Page 30. Part number: 2A4148. Price: Use GHB128. GHB128 is a unipart number too, and is contained in the Kit GHK1142. Hence GHK1142 is specifying part number 2A4148, along with the other original bearing.

Lawrence Slater

I had always thought that Unipart were set up as the brand name for spares for the BL Group, packaging and selling components from a wide variety of individual suppliers. And then gradually diversified to incorporate parts for other vehicles too. Lawrence, I am still puzzled by my Unipart kits - GHK1924. If the 1142 kits that you quote as having been around since mid 1970's, then how do my 1924 kits fit into this scheme? Is it a replacement kit (mine are circa 2008). But seeing as they contain the correct earlier available RHP bearings -39/LJT25 and 11/MJT17 it seems unlikely that the kit replaces an earlier 1142 one. The box also carries the number K6 U3677 21930 All these numbers confuse me!

Guy Weller

I must admit I had only ever heard of GHK 1142. My kit is about 10 years old and contains the two rhp bearings oil seal and split pin. Does the GHK 1924 have different items in the kit? eg grease or no split pin for example. The web suggests the GHK 1924 kit is for wire wheeled cars for some reason??is that right? The QH QWB105C kits also include the RHP bearings and oil seal and grease but no split pin! The joys of spridget motoring.......

Bob Beaumont

There is no difference between wire-wheeled and steel-wheeled bearings. It's possible that Unipart changed their part number but most suppliers have stayed with the original.

Dave O'Neill2

Kit contains inner and outer bearing, oil seal and split pin. 2 of the kits came from my local "Partco" motor factors in 2008. I remember being quite surprised that they listed them and could get them for me by 12 noon on the same day. The other two kits have the same numbering, but are a bit older and I don't remember where I got them, but possibly Welsh MG. As they all have the RHP bearings they are presumably old stock - or older stock. I wouldn't have specified wire wheel fitment.

Guy Weller

Lawrence, my electronic version of the parts book is a Heritage CD and is a scan of the paper copy. The front cover of the book is badged Leyland and is dated Feb 1977 1st edition part no. AKM 0036. The parts fiche is badged Rover Group. Interestingly the parts book quotes the following at the foot of page two. The Unipart logo is followed by "Unipart parts and accessories are tested and approved by British Leyland." Trev

T Mason

Should have added the parts book gives no numbers for a kit, or even suggests one is available. Trev

T Mason

I think it's pretty clear then, a VERy good case can be made to say that if you are offered and buy a part marked GHK1142, it's a long standing part number for a kit containing BMC specified parts. Guy the 1924 number is a fairly recent number used by Unipart, but it obviously came in when the RHP bearings were still available to the Unipart. Now, unless one of their depots has old stock, they will source the kit from another OEM supplier, and I got FL when I asked the local unipart store to order one in for me. Does anyone recognize this as an inner RHP bearing? Part number 39LOT2B stamped on the bearing.

Lawrence Slater

"Guy, the 1924 number is a fairly recent number used by Unipart" Yes, this seems to be the case. But why, if they are still using the 1124 number? And why introduce the new number anyway? Unless, what was going on was a change of the 1124 number to 1942 for those kits still containing the remaining RHP bearing sets, and re-allocating the 1142 number for the kits from then on that were to contain the alternative "OEM replacement" bearings. Subtly masking the replacement of RHP bearings by retaining the original number! All allegedly, of course!

Guy Weller

Good GOD almighty !!! Are you freaken kidding me ??? 250 postings on wheel bearings... And not to mention all the other archived topics under the term wheel bearings....im mean seriously, when is enough enough...wheel bearings has got to be the single most talked about thread on this forum Cant someone just write a book on the topic and call it a day But dont let me stop you...if wheel bearings help you to shot your goo... Then let me get out of the way. Wack away Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

No where near Prop, do you not remember the Welsh sheep thread?

Guy Weller

Guy, I don't think Unipart are still using the 1142 number. It's just so well established, that all the other suppliers are still using it. Prop, what's your personal experience with "cheap" front wheel bearings, other than getting your jollies off?

Lawrence Slater

Doesn't explain why Unipart changed the well known number then.

Guy Weller

Guy why does anything well established ever change? Someone else gets put in charge, and thinks it to be a good idea? Who knows?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, I'd put money on your '39LOT2B' actually being 39LJT25 if examined with a glass... so an RHP one.

David Smith

David, thanks, you could be right, it was identified through a sealed plastic bag and wasn't that clear.

Lawrence Slater

The answer to 40 year old cheapo brarings is simple modern day ...Taper bearings or 40 degree angular contact bearings Just like staples...." That was easy !!!!" Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop, nobody was asking questions about 40 year old cheapo bearings. The question is about modern day "cheapo" bearings, and why the suppliers are selling them in fair quantities, and seemingly having no returns.

Lawrence Slater

Norm said: <<oops, David, I think there's a typo in one of your part numbers: the Outer was originally BMC part number 2A4178 (not 48). These numbers are shown on the RHP drawings that were referenced earlier.>> no typo Norm, 4148 is what the book says. I gave the source - it's an original BMC book that I got when a BL garage closed about 20 years ago. As the number would have been supplied by BMC to their supplier it seems probable that someone at RHP wrote it down wrong.

David Smith

yes I agree. My 1960 BMC parts book for the Sprite confirms outer as 2A4148 and inner 2A4147 which changed to 2A4299 from late 1958

Bob Beaumont

good to know guys, thanks for catching that! Norm

Norm Kerr

Well I am still to hear from FL, Unipart, and some others. Does this mean anything? I don't know yet, but I'll be chasing them today. Meanwhile, take a look at these. http://www.morrisminorspares.net/shop_item.php?ID=4434 So I emailed bull motif, ---. "I understand you are now selling a better front wheel bearing kit. I know the originals were made by RHP and were 20 degree angular contact types, made with a very close tolerance, but finding old stock of these is all but impossible now. So I'm very interested to hear about your kits Can you please tell me how this kit is better than most I see on sale? Can you tell me the specification of the bearings? Do you have them in stock and how much are they?" The reply was, --- "Hi no sorry original bearings are no longer avialable, we have our own bearings made to original tight tolerances, i cannot give you the tech spec of the bearings unfortunately, but we do not have any problems with them, they are £24.99+vat per side and are in stock. thanks james bull motif spares" So I telephoned and spoke with James. He told me he ddin't know the exact specification of the bearing kit. However, he said that they were fed up with the poorly fitting kits that they were previously supplying, so they commisioned a company to make them some to the original RHP specifications. They did this by sending the manufacturer a QH bearing kit(RHP), and aksed the manufacturer to essentially copy it. The result is that they had 1000 of these made, and have plenty in stock. He absolutely assures me that if I buy the kit, and it is loose or too tight, then no questions, it's money back. They have had no problems since they started selling these bearings. He wouldn't say who the maker was, and wasn't sure where they are made. He suspected the previous cheap ones they used to sell, that didn't fit properly, might have been of indian origin, but was guessing. He also said that he was aware of the newer but very expensive bearings, but found it a litle difficult to get them when wanted, and that they were an arm and a leg. Now looking at the website, and the email reply he sent me, makes me wonder if he could be misleading me. The answer has to be no. I also wonder if he is mistaken. I think that is also no. They had them made specifically to the RHP specifications. They do not give them the part number GHK1142, because they are not. They are copies. If that's the case, maybe then Sussex could be doing the same, as with many of the suppliers, other than that they are using the GHK1142 label to describe them. It would very interesting to see the bull motif bearings. Anyone want to buy them? £24.99 Plus Vat and postage, unless someone is nearby and can drop in to take a look. Winchcombe Gloucestershire

Lawrence Slater

No I do not want to buy them because it is impossible to supply bearings of the specification required at such a low price. Again another supplier who believes that the original problem existed because bearings were made poorly eg in this case indian origin!!!! As we all know that is not the problem as most bearings of normal specification are made in Japan and are still very cheap. I would feel more confident if they would tell you what the issue was but they of course never do and finally how would anyone know the correct specification of the RHP bearings? simply by looking at the kit? If I had been sent an original kit and asked to supply a quality replacement and not one with indian bearings in I would simply Mic up the bearings and supply a kit with SKF bearings made in Japan for around 15 quid, QED

Bob Turbo Midget England

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p554005/34/LJT25+Angualar+Contact+Special+Ball+Bearing+25x52x15mm/product_info.html Google is a wonderful thing!! ha ha Are these worth a look/ follow up?? Says they are 34/LJT25 angular contact special ball bearings. They are in the clearenace section- only have 2 left but does say contact them if you want more??? I'm taking the "special" to mean face adjusted,2mm inner radius etc?? I havn't contacted them but someone feel free to. Granted they are just the "inner" bearing but it is maybe a start- assuming they are the correct bearing made to the correct standard! I'm "guessing/ assuming" they are as they are £29.99+VAT for 1 which is more expensive than most "kits" from suppliers but assuming they could source the "outer" bearing 3MMJT17 at a similar/ lesser price & continue to supply 34LJT25's it would work out less than R&M/ Oronico £100 a side for bearings?? Still dearer than the "other kits" I know. It does look like if you bought in bulk from them you might get them cheaper i.e. MGOC, Sussex, MGB Hive etc etc. ........??????

M Slater

"3MMJT17" slip of keyboard!! :-) 3MJT17

M Slater

I'm with you Bob. Thats exactly what I said earlier. No one will be able to copy them without the drawing, they will just measure them and supply to that - hence the standard bearings that don't do the job. Trev

T Mason

DOH DOH DOH I got a spare 5 minutes and called..... They only have 2 34LJT25's but could possibly get 6/7 more from there suplier in the USA but they would be 39LJT25's and then NO MORE. They lady I spoke to "Megan" said they were bought up as a job lot and once they are gone they are gone, so to me it does sound like NOS bearings!! I never went into the technical discussion of face adjusted, 2mm inner rad etc. as I don't need bearings I wasn't going to take them for the sake of it.... I also asked about 3MJT17 and she said they don't have stock but "we could get quiet a few of those" she said Price £29.99- 34LJT25 £29.99- 3MJT17 both PLUS VAT so £71.98 inc vat + P&P dearer than "cheaper kits" but cheaper than R&M/ Oronico...... I wander how busy their phone will get?! "snooze you loose" :-)

M Slater

"Again another supplier who believes that the original problem existed because bearings were made poorly eg in this case indian origin!!!!"/ No that's not what he said. He said that before having these bearings made, he guessed that the ones they were previously selling, might have been made in India. He didn't say they were pooorly made, just poorly fitting. On their website, they say they " ***WE DO NOT SELL THSES DUE TO POOR QUALITY*** PLEASE ORDER PREMIUM KITS SUS166A." Fit is an issue of quality too. "I would feel more confident if they would tell you what the issue was but they of course never do and finally how would anyone know the correct specification of the RHP bearings? simply by looking at the kit?" Yes he did say what the problem was. He said that the problem was they were too loose, and so they stopped selling them, and had some specially made. In order to get the bearings made to the correct specifications, they sent the bearing manufacturer a new QH(RHP)kit. I would imagine that a bearing manufacturer is quite capable of determining the sizes and tolerance of the bearings. I would imagine they have just the right equipment to take the bearings apart and measure them accurately. Why is that so difficult to believe?

Lawrence Slater

Hi Lawrence, Since "face adjusted" seems to be a technical term with a specific meaning, why didn't you just ask if they were face adjusted? - or did you? If your contact didn't understand the meaning, he could no doubt find out for you, from their supplier if necessary. A description of "they were too loose" does seem a bit of a sloppy explanation and still leaves too much uncertainty as to what was actually meant. Maybe they are good replacements, but it isn't yet conclusive.

Guy Weller

Hi Lawrence I simply answered your question. The problem for me and you is how are bearings made, we seem to differ in our understanding. IMO there are only a few manufacturers and they DO NOT need a kit to manufacture bearings, they simply need a specification. Even an application would surfice for them to determine what is required, it is not rocket science, bearing manufacturers are very competent engineers. So what would the company do. Well there are a number of companies who modify existing bearings to suit spacial applications and I suspect this is whom has done the work, however based on the fact that all other manufacturers would require a high value to produce face adjusted bearings why would someone be prepared to do it so cheaply? As Judge Judy say, if it don't sound right then it aint right!! If they were not suggesting poor quality as the issue why even mention India?

Bob Turbo Midget England

Im off to Silverstone now so sod off until Monday. :)))))))))))

Bob Turbo Midget England

Bob, India is irrelevant. Bull Motif presumably don't have the drawings, so they sent an original kit to be measured up and copied. Seems reasonable to me. Have a good time Bob. :) Hi Guy, I think (from memory) I did mention face adjusted, or at least reference to it, and he seemed to understand what I was saying. He certainly understood the need for them to be made to a closer tolerance than the bearings they were previously selling, and hence the owner of the company, whoever that is, decided to have them made specially. In saying that previously they were too loose he was acknowledging that the bearings gave wheel wobble, and weren't any good. Like most retailers, they are are sales people and not engineers able to define a fault in technical terms. I agree, not conclusive, but their neck is out a long way in stating that these bearings were made for them specially to resolve the issue of poorly fiting bearings. But that's why I said if anyone was near enough maybe they could drop in and take a look see. ------------------------- How about this then? Unipart UGCGHK1924, is the number on the kit supplied when the kit is sourced from Uniparts own suppliers. Unipart GHK1142, is the number used when the kits came from Rover group. One of Unipart current sources listed is BRT bearings, and their kit number is BRT-287. I just rang BRT (wisbech), they have SIX kits left in their stock. These kits contain RHP bearings. Definitely, and when they are gone, they are gone. After that, Unipart will have to get their Kits from other suppliers. It was confirmed to me again today, that as far as Unipart are concerned, any kit they supply is OE, and should be OE. If they have supplied ANY Spridget bearing kits that don't fit properly, NOBODY has EVER told them about it, and that includes any that came from Firstline. I rang Firstline again today. FL technical confirmed to me that having spoken to the bearing maker, the bearings are MADE to fit. I asked if that meant that they were made to the SAME tolerances as the original RHP bearings, and was told YES. Again nobody has bought them and sent them back, for ANY reason. They may be 40 degree rather then 20 degree, but will still be made to fit properly, and if they don't fit then they should be returned. I also spoke to an Engineer at Unipart this afternoon. He is Ex MG, as is his colleague. He also owns a MKii Sprite, that he rebuilt over 11 years. I figure he knows his onions. He has NEVER heard of this problem. He is a member of the Sprite and Midget club. He doesn't think it is likely that ALL the suppliers are selling bearings that don't fit properly, especially as none of the members of the clubs he belongs to has ever mentioned a problem. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but it can't be that wide spread. So it seems to me that unless someone actually goes out and buys a kit today, from any of the suppliers, and proves without doubt that there is (still ) a problem, then this might not be the problem that it appears to be. From my point of view, if I needed a bearing kit, and didn't have NOS in my garage, I'd go and buy a 13 quid kit from Sussex. If it didn't fit, I'd take it back and complain, and tell everyone here what happened.

Lawrence Slater

I forgot to mention btw, that BRT bearings told me that RHP produced the final batch of the original bearings in 2008. Apparently it's called the terminal batch. That might suggest that they still have the tooling, but as the demand numbers aren't sufficient, they are very unlikely to make any more.

Lawrence Slater

Following M Slaters lead in digging around on the web -- Bearings Impex, have 9 times 11/MJT17, and 2 times 34/LJT25. Don't know how much they are, as I didn't ring to find out. Bearings Impex, Crewe Tel.01270 585211 Also, Sussex confirmed that they still aren't having any problems with the bearings they sell. They have the same bearing source as Moss. I'm still waiting to hear back from them(Moss), but previously they said they only had one return in 612 kits over the last 12 months. However, I spoke with Brown and Gammons, and they have temporarily suspended sales of the bearing kits, until they have time to investigate it. .

Lawrence Slater

More info for the greater good.... AP Lockheed kit nos kit Kit WBK105 Big RHP 39LOT25 Little N/MJT17 Oil seal & grease

d cusworth

:)) Yes """"BRT bearings told me that RHP produced the final batch of the original bearings in 2008"""" Yes even though RHP went out of business in 1990 or thereabouts they were taken over by NSK and NSK still today produce bearings with RHP engravings. BRT of course are a major distributor of NSK bearings and I would tend to believe them that the last batch of these bearings would have been produced at the Newark factory in 2008. Tooling is not the issue bearing tooling is pretty standard stuff it is the market that determines what bearings are made. If it is cost effective to make a certain specification bearing then it will be produced obviously. I guess therefore that if enough people(500? 1000?) wanted this bearing kit at say £50 then a bearing manufacturer would be happy to set up their tooling to make it.

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Humm! Got all excited (how sad am I) when the local Parto dealer said they had one old GHK 1924 kit in stock. Toddled down to discover..... it was an FL kit! 'made to the original specification' oh yes of course it is..

Bob Beaumont

Bob, I chatted with Unipart again the other day. If you can get GHK1142 in a UNIPART box, it will have RHP bearings in it. This is beacause it is the bmc/Rover group numbering system. They will likely come from BRT, but they are now running out of stock of RHP bearings. They have enough individual RHP bearings left, to make 3 pairs of kits. When BRT run out of bearings to make up the kits, that will be that, and GHK1142 will become unavailable as far as Unipart are concerned. Just like QWB105c did with QH. But the GHK1924 kit is sourced by Unipart from other suppliers, such as FL, who also supply to OE spec. Now FL are adamant that the bearing kits they are supplying are to the correct spec neccessary to fit properly, and a long time engineer at Unipart has heard nothing to say that they don't fit properly. Until someone buys a kit and fits it we won't know for certain other than the numbers on the bearings say they are not face adjusted. d cusworth, AP Lockheed kit nos kit Kit WBK105 Big RHP 39LOT25 Little N/MJT17 Are you certain about those numbers? 39LOT25, and N/MJT17

Lawrence Slater

PS, GHK1924 might also have RHP bearings, it just depends on how old it is. FL must have been supplying RHP kits too at one time, but presumably they can't get the bearings anymore and have sought replacements. The full number is UGCGHK1924, and is something to do with it being sourced from Non Rover group sources, as such they have a different number to distinguish it. BRT must have been a Rover group approved supplier or something. It was explained to me, I forget exactly, but that's probably about right.

Lawrence Slater

another go.. 39LJT25 11/MJT17 they're in sealed bags..

d cusworth

Hi Robert (Bob), On the BMC drawing for 34/ljt25 (shown in Norms article), is says --- "marked face of outer to be flush to 0.025 above unmarked face of inner when a gauging load of 24.5N is applied to marked face of outer". However on the 3/MJT17 bearing no information is given in this respect. Is this an ommision, or an indication that the measurement is only critical on the inner 34/LJT25? I'm guessing it's an ommision, and hence wondering if you could provide me with the drawing for the outer bearing, that includes the full notes.

Lawrence Slater

Just chatting with SKF, and the chap there told me that the 7205/7303 BECBP universal matched specification is only really needed for high precision machine tool applications and the like, where very high revolution speeds are involved. It wouldn't be needed on the spindle of a car axle. So the basic bearing 7205/7303BEP would do the job as the internal clearances are measured in microns, and would not be anything like up to 10 thou. That said, I have found a source of SKF 7205BECBP and 7303BECBP, for less than £5 each plus postage and other expenses that might be involved in importing them. The only question then is about the 2mm radius. On the SKF website it provides the dimensions, but I can't tell by looking at the drawings if there is an internal 2mm radius or not.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, From memory the SKF data shows the radius and it's 1mm for the standard bearing.

David Billington

Hi David, When you say standard bearing, does that mean a 2mm radius would be a special? So that a universally matched (in SKF speak) "standard" bearing, would also have 1mm, and thus to get 2mm, you would have to have a "special" universally matched bearing? -- If that makes sense.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, Yes that's correct. It has been mentioned before and to use the bearing ideally one would grind the correct radius or use a shim so the inner bearing inner race abuts the stub axle shoulder.

David Billington

Thanks David. I am being quoted, price in USD, SKF 7303BECBP: 3.84$/pc SKF 7205BECBP: 4.16$/pc So a standard universally matched(aka face adjusted) SKF bearing is actually pretty cheap. But if they are 1mm radius, that makes them no good, unless you take Roberts view that the radius doesn't matter(much), in which case they are extremely cheap. As you say, the 1mm can easily be shimmed out to avoid the stress riser cause by the bearing not sliding fully home. Measuring my own spares, moving the hub out by 1mm wouldn't cause the disc to foul the caliper. As I understand it, the NSK versions are also 1mm. So why are they circa £100 per side, when I can get SKFs for less than 10 quid per side? I also read somehere today, but can't find it now, that the NSK BEATSUN versions are now discontinued. Is that correct?

Lawrence Slater

Hi Mate Firstly all modern bearings of this size whether ball or even taper roller are made with a 1mm inner radius this is to ensure that the rear face is as deep as possible. So to buy a bearing of any description with more than 1mm would require a special! What needs to be decided is this, is the fillet radius of all stub axles more than 1mm? I don't know and the only indication that this may be the case is the original design spec of the RHP bearing asks for this to be at least 2mm? We need to measure a number of them to find out what was actually the case. Secondly As you say the SKF bearings are staggeringly cheap and why I have no idea but why are you quoting in dollars?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I was quoted in USD by the supplier. I assume they are buying them in USD. But anyway it's less than 3 quid per bearing, plus of course shipping and import expenses. I haven't got a full quote including those yet, but I can't imagine it being prohibitive. I'm thinking of getting a sample, ---- after I get more details and confirmation, that they really are the full spec skf universally adjusted items.

Lawrence Slater

Robert, I posted on the 7th June, it was the days last post, that a 2.5mm radius gauge fit my stub axle the best and added a drawing of the form of the radius. Depending on ones stub axle radius fitting a standard bearing with a 1mm radius could result in the larger radius deforming the inner race and reducing the internal clearance. I've seen that sort of thing before with deep groove bearings where the shaft was a bit large and the result was the bearing ran hot and the shaft need attention to correct the problem. Lawrence, Were they quoting you a volume price, 10k units or the like, as that price seems cheap even for a standard bearing without face adjustment.

David Billington

It's sleepy time where they are, so I won't know about the minimum quantity for that price until tomorrow. But as soon as I get a reply, I'll post it here, along with the picture of the marked faces of bearings, showing the specification --- hopefully.

Lawrence Slater

Yes I saw that David and I am wondering if that is typical? Lawrence what I meant was can you buy the SKF alternative for the same price in the UK/Europe? or is it only in the USA where it is this cheap?

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I don't know the answer to that Robert. In fact, I'm not even sure how I found this suppleier, they seem to have found me. I've been banging off enquiries left right and centre to find cheaper sources of SKF and NSK bearings, and a week or so ago, I received and reply from this company telling me they can supply all the major brands andasking me to tell them what I wanted. So I said RHP and gave them the numbers, or as an alternative could they get the NSK and SKFs. They can't get the NSK versions, but can get the SKFs. Where do SKF mainly manufacture? If it's in Europe, then I would think that if I can get a price this cheap outside Europe, it must be possible to get something like the same price in the EU. However as the price is so cheap, I won't believe it until I see a picture of the actual bearing faces with the BECBP markings. I've asked for that, and the reply was that I will get the picture and more details on the prices and quantity tomorrow.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, Not very detailed but a search for "SKF manufacturing sites" turned up this http://investors.skf.com/main.php?p=about&s=production&lang=en I've bought many SKF bearings over the years and the country of origin has covered most European countries and some outside Europe. What would be interesting to know is the break down of bearing types made at the various locations.

David Billington

Robert, in answer to your question about the fillet radius: The fillet radius at the base of the stub axle has been posted previously (this thread is getting too darn long, so we might run the risk of going in circles at some point!) A whole bunch of them were measured by Peter Caldwell (the Armstrong damper specialist in Wisconsin) and the result was that they were all in the range from a little bit more than 1mm, up to and including 2mm. This information reinforced the reason behind the note on the RHP drawing controlling that part of the bearing to be min 2mm. By the way, if one were to shim the bearing outboard by 1mm, the main concern should be whether the grease seal will run on the seal surface or fall off of it. I suspect that if that seal were intact, and the rotor would clear the caliper, then a 1mm shim ought to work. However, the seal surface, IIRC, is pretty small. Someone should check this to be sure, before using a shim for this (a failed grease seal will not only be messy, but lead to a short bearing life). Norm

Norm Kerr

Norm, I recently bought some spare stub axles and hubs. They had been in service for some time, and there was a clear ring showing where the oil seal ran. I'm pretty certain, that 1mm wouldn't cause it too run so far out that it would "fall of", but I'll take another look and measure it. PS, better to keep to this thread in my oppinion, as there is an awful lot of info(repeated) here, that is scattered around in a multitude of other threads, and loads that is not in any of the other threads.

Lawrence Slater

Well the bearings I'm being quoted on, in USD, are coming from Austria, and are the genuine deal. They are SKF Explorer. No minimum quantity order. I'm still awaiting other details. Suppose this turns out to be the real deal at these cheap prices. Is anyone interested enough for me to buy some? Or, is there a dealer type amongst you, that might be interested enough to want to buy in quantity?

Lawrence Slater

Actually I should qualify that. I don't know where the bearings are coming from. They are made in Austria, as can be seen. However, they may be coming from the same place as the supplier, which is not in the EU. Or, the supplier may be intending to purchase in the EU, and ship direct to me in UK. Either way, I have sought re-confirmation of the individual costs of the bearings. If it's correct, then I could get these for say 35 quid per car? That is 2 kits per car. Enough to do both sides for less than 40 quid. Anybody interested? PS, where can you purchase the 1mm shim for these if neccessary?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence The shim would need an ID larger than the nominal diameter of the shaft, as it would be sitting on the radius. It would also need to have its own radius.

Dave O'Neill2

Well I thought I would get some spares for stock ! Today I was out bid by a last second sniper again ! My pet hate about e bay - I've started reducing use of e bay lately as can't be bothered with snipers. The last laugh (I hope) is with me - phoned the company Lawrence noted BRT and yes they could do me 2 sets of RHP's and they were cheaper that the sniper paid - result ! I'm now awaiting delivery. £18.00 + vat (£21.60) per set + delivery. They still have 4 sets left. R. Oh nearly forgot - thank you Lawrence for the tip.

richard boobier

This must have been discussed before - unless it is just too stupid an idea for anyone with more than half a brain cell to suggest, But couldn't one run around that inner 1mm radius with a small stone in a dremel to increase the clearance there? OK, there is the danger of getting swarf in the bearing but there must be ways of controlling this with grease or by washing and re-packing afterwards.

Guy Weller

You know Guy, I agree. All you have to do is block off the rollers with tape. You're only working the internal area of the inner raceway, so I can't really see the problem. There's been some talk of vibration from grinding, causing damage to the balls and raceways, but I doubt that it would. As you say pack them with grease, and they can't vibrate anyway. Masking tape over top, and no swarf. Dave, yup I was wondering how to get around that. I figured an oversized internal diameter for the shim(so that it clears the fillet), and superglue it in place. Once the inner bearing is torqued up against it, it won't move. Congrats Richard. Double the price if you got them through Unipart. You're welcome. :) Got confirmation of the prices of the SKF's. Yup they really are that cheap. The bug is in the shipping, and the bank commision for conversion to USD from £. I'm still trying to work out the cheapest way round this. Honestly, I'm no dealer, and not interseted in becoming one. So if anyone here is into international commerce, and is familiar with bringing shipment into the UK, and would like to take this on as an opportunity, my email address is at the top.

Lawrence Slater

Hi Guy, when this was last discussed, the concern was that the vibration from the grinding would cause damage to the balls / races the bearing companies who do this service use some kind of a rubber ring clamp that holds the balls still to prevent that while they grind (I found a company in New York that does it, for $100 a piece - yikes) so, one could certainly give it a try with a Dremel, and it might work, or it is possible that the bearings life might be reduced (hard to say) also, the race is very hard steel, difficult to grind Norm

Norm Kerr

Well, you know, the race steel cuts pretty easily with a grinding disk. I have often removed stuck inner races by cutting part way through then split them off with a swift belt with a good cold chisel. In fact that may be more of the problem. Grinding with a hand held dremel would perhaps create irregularities and stress risers which might then fracture the bearing race. I can see that done by a specialist a modification like this would be expensive, but l was thinking along basic DIY lines. FRM will be along soon to give me his definitive answer about why this wouldn't be a workable idea.

Guy Weller

So it's shims then. They should be cheap enough. I have an offer to send me 2 pair of the SKF's foc, as a first order. All I have to pay is shipping. That will make them extremely cheap. even with the cost of the bearings, they are still cheap. cheap enough to source shims i think.

Lawrence Slater

That sound too good to be true, I will purchase a pair Lawrence and I will fit one side of my car to test then and a shim.

Bob Turbo Midget England

In theory, the shim needs to be a maximum of 2 mm thck and have an internal bore of +4mm over the stub axle diameter. But as the bearings do already have a 1mm chamfered edge this thickness could probably be reduced by a good deal, maybe down to 1mm ? That seal lip running further out could begin to be a concern at 2mm.

Guy Weller

Robert. I agree it does sound to good to be true, so I'm going to ring SKF on Monday and ask how it's possible. I also now know they are made in China, SKF have had a factory there for years. I asked the supplier why the bearings box is marked Austria, and was told that SKF insist on this. Odd I think, so I'm going to ask about that too. Thing is though I can't see this being any kind of con. They are offering to send them FOC, and I pay the DHL shipping charges on arrival. So if the bearings don't arrive or are fake, I don't pay. For a one off shipment of 4 bearings, 2 of each to do both sides, they weigh about 1kg. The shipping charges are likely to be about 80USD I'm told, which includes an amount for exchange commision. Still cheap, but not as cheap as buying in quantity, because proportionately it gets cheaper to ship the more you buy. Over 20kg it's only about 9USD per kilo. So Robert. Are you interested? I'll sell you a set at cost if you are. About 25 quid for face adjusted SKFs. Found quite a few places that sell shims online, so I'm going to ring a few on monday and enquire about getting a chamfered 1mm shim. But I think I'll just go for an oversize, and superglue it in place. The bearing face will hold it centrally after that. Still haven't measured the position of wear ring from the oil seal, must do that tomorow too. As you say Guy, if it needs to come out 2mm, it may well be a non starter. We'll see.

Lawrence Slater

Looks like a good plan Lawrence. Actually, I am quite surprised that you should pursue this topic quite so avidly when you already have adequate spare sets of the correct spec bearings to see you through. It has certainly been interesting but it is hard to see your motivator! On a rather different point - there is this issue about the inner bearings destroying themselves when you remove the hub. The inner race staying stuck on the axle shaft whilst the outer race comes away with the hub. The outer race is of course additionally trapped by the oil seal but the inner race should in theory draw cleanly off the axle shaft. I wonder if those that don't are in fact bearings with the wrong (1mm) radius which therefore get wedged on the widening fillet of the axle, giving a very tight interference fit that won't let go very readily. Dave O'Neill's drawing illustrates this rather well!

Guy Weller

Guy, I was thinking the same myself. Lawrence, you could also fit a shim behind the oilseal to restore its correct location. Slight overkill maybe, but you could also fit a shim between the disc and the hub.

Dave O'Neill2

Lawrence, You might ask if the can ship USPS as that should be cheaper than DHL if you don't need it quick. I've had a few things USPS and it took around a week, last time I got some stuff from the US DHL it took about 3 days and the customs bill came a few month later. The DHL handling charge in those days was fairly cheap and much better than UPS but things may have changed. IIRC with the prices being charged you should come in under the customs limit which is off the top of my head in the £30 region. but don't quote me on that.

David Billington

I'm building up a 1930 Morris Minor (Like an MG M-type) and happened to notice that the spindle dimensions were similar to the post-war Minor and the Spridget. Got out the 'fancy tools' and found that they were the same Metric dimensions. You can fit a wire wheel Spridget hub onto a pre-war Minor if you use an outer bearing from a 1949 Minor. The bearing manufacturers seem to have been on a very long supply contract to Morris/BMC/BL/Rover group. PS No bearing slop on the pre-war hub and bearing and that car hasn't moved under its own steam for several decades.

r thomas

300+ posts so it is a little hard to trawl through. Is there a site that explains the spec against bearing number? "LJ25", "39LTJ25" etc.

r thomas

Hi r thomas, Each bearing manufacturer has their own way of numbering them (so there isn't a universal "key"), and the lists from RHP that I've seen here have not been comprehensive (basically just show what size they are), so the best thing is to see the part drawings themselves, which which were provided to us by Bob Turbo, and are included at the end of this article: http://www.mgexperience.net/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html hope this helps, Norm

Norm Kerr

Hi Guy, The motivation has evolved somewhat. It began, as an interest in finding out once and for all, why people don't complain enough to get something done about all the rubbish bearings around, and to establish who's bearings, if any, did fit. Now I'm just curious I think. You're right, I don't need any, but others do, so I'm just poking my nose in for the hell of it I guess. After the lengthy discussion followed my first post in this thread, I still don't think it is established that ALL the "cheap" bearings on sale, are a poor fit. In fact I suspect that the FL moderns at least would fit. Then there is Sussex, still standing by their assertion that theirs fit. supplied to them by Powertune, as are the Moss bearings. And there are others. Take this link for example. £10.99 per kit. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320850449853&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123 Here is the chaps reply to my questions. He has 100% +ve feedback. "Dear Sir, We sell many thousands of these kits with no technical or quality problems. I can confirm they are 40 degree angular contact ball bearings that are universally ground and faced to run as a matched set as per the original OEM Bearings. The OEM Bearings were made by RHP which are no longer available, ours are FHBC Korea and are direct alternatives. They will need to be pre-loaded to the recomended torque settings by the vehicle manufacturer. I have not recieved any rejects or quality complaints from our Wholesale or retail customers. I hope this helps. regards Jason" Then there are the big branded pretty expensive face adjusted moderns. I began trying to find a cheaper source, on the assumption that maybe some of the "cheap" bearings on sale ware in fact machined to a close tolerance. Hence I find myself talking to a bearing company that can supply the SKFs for very cheap money indeed. The postage costs drive up the price, but not to 100 quid per side. I'm now wondering if I might introduce Moss et al to this supply and get them to stock them. I'm not interested in trading myself. I can't be bothered. Dave, I thought about a shim behind the oil seal too. Logical answer really, and yep maybe even one behind the disc. Once in place, changing the bearings in the future, would be no more of a problem than if you were using OEMs. Guy, I've never had the inner bearing stick on the shaft. I've never used a puller, just levered behind the disc, and off the hub slid. But it's not only "cheap"(1mm) bearings that people say this happens with, it happens to RHPs too. My guess is burrs, or an otherwise less than smooth shaft. Probably the result of the first time the bearings were changed, the shaft wasn't cleaned/smoothed properly. Maybe roughed up when having new bushes for the k/pins? David, on the subject of customs. How can i find out how much the bill will be? Do you know if there will there be import duty for a free of charge shipment, and VAT?

Lawrence Slater

Probably best to talk to HMRC about duty.

Dave O'Neill2

Hi Dave, I just did. Bloody modern telephone menus. Takes ages before you actually get to talk to someone. Anyway. (For a private purchase). VAT is payable on goods coming from outside the EU. 20% is payable if the price of the goods exceeds the personal allowance of £15.00. Customs duty is payable on goods coming from outside the EU if the the total value including shipping and insurance exceeds the personal allowance of £150.00. So now't to pay. As these are so cheap, there's no duty to pay. Just shipping charges.

Lawrence Slater

Another website and a discussion on bearing issues. Rears, this time. Quite a plausible explanation of the causes of leaks and failures. Same raer hubs as Spridgets, obviously. http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45598

r thomas

The way to do it Lawrence is to find someone in the States to buy it and then send it to you marked as a second hand gift. Also,heavier items sent by sea (3 to 6 weeks) is much cheaper than sent by air

Guy Weller

Guy, I'm afraid it wouldn't help. I need somone coming from China. That's where the bearings are shipped from. There is an SKF factory in Shanghai. But I've had it confirmed today, that SKF 7303BECBP and SKF 7205BECBP aren't made there. They are made in Austria. Most sales in Asia Pacific are made through authorised dealers, but not all. I'm dealing with one of the unauthorised dealers it appears. I have have the full shipping costs $62. At current ex rates that's about £39 for two sets of face adjusted SKF's. So the question is, do I want them? Me personally not, but it seems there are plenty available, and bought in a decent numbers, the cost halves. Buying 40 sets, enough to do 20 cars, both sides, would work out at about £19 per car --- at cost. less than 10 quid per side for face adjusted skf's. Anybody into commerce here that might be interested?

Lawrence Slater

Well mine arrived from BRT today BRT207 kits (bearings and seal). RHP's 39LJT25 and 11MJT17. R.

richard boobier

Hi Richard, Do you have an email address? Or could you email me? slaterlp@btconnect.com cheers.

Lawrence Slater

Well now, you think Orinoco aka RandM is overpriced for old stock RHP originals? BRT are asking OVER 260 quid for the kit I mentioned earlier. I decided to pick up an extra kit as a spare. 18 quid plus vat being so reasonable. So I rang BRT, and they confirmed that they still have 4 kits in stock. But the price is 385 pounds. However, I can have a retail price discount, that will bring the price down to 263 pounds per kit. A bargain I'm sure you all agree. Not!. It seems that the poor sod who sold them for 18 quid has "had a talking to". BRT denied this yesterday when I spoke with them, and said the price has always been that high because they are so rare, and nobody would be selling them for less. Really? I said. Then how is it that Unipart, who told me about you being their supplier, were able to sell them for around 36 quid until quite recently? The answer I was given, is that BRT don't supply Unipart anymore. I spoke with the BRT sales manager at the head office yesterday, when first told about the ridiculous price of 383 quid. I asked her why it was so high. She said that was near to what they paid for them. I said I don't believe you, are they made from Gold? She was unable to contain her laughter. Even she knew she was talking Bo$%#$$%$$ocks. Anyway. BRT do have 4 kits of RHP originals. They will cost you 260ish quid per kit, unless you can get some sense from them. Glad you got a steal from them Richard. lol.

Lawrence Slater

I'm not surprised. There has been a lot of interest and discussion about these bearings in t'internet recently. Rumours abound about people searching out and buying up dusty old stock. No wonder they have suddenly become priceless collectors' items. Have you tried Sotherbys?

Guy Weller

lol. Yep I can imagine it. And what am I bid for these priceless and extremely rare wheel bearings? Sold for 1000 pounds to the gentleman with the face like a mug. :) Guy, something you asked about how much play in the bearing, results in how much movement at the perimeter, and something others have been doing with the cheap bearings with shims, to make them play free, has struck a bell in my mind. I've been thinking about it for a while now, but I have to experiment first. I'll report back later.

Lawrence Slater

I guess it is just basic geometry. The distance moved at the rim is dependant on the angle that the wheel will "rock" through and this is dependant on the free play at the bearing. Congruent triangles? No, perhaps that is wrong. Anyway triangles with the same angles but different lengths of the sides.

Guy Weller

I just love this thread. :)

Bob Turbo Midget England

Yup you can reduce it to right angled triangles, and get a good approximation of how much play there must be at the outer diameter of the wheel bearing. That's what has me thinking further. So I'm experimenting. Here's an update on the SKF's from China(Austria). Either they are being routed/sold in china(unauthorised), or they are very good copies. About 3 or so years ago, I read that counterfeiting in electronics was so good these days, that the "fake" goods were in fact the genuine item. I.e. they weren't fake at all, because the technology employed to create them was in fact the same as in the official product. It had just been stolen, design and production. It is possible that these SKF bearings, might turn out to be unauthorised exact copies of the real thing. I've decided not to purchase them.

Lawrence Slater

. . . .or, as with electronics, made by the same subcontractor on the same equipment at the same time. Just sent on a diversion off the delivery line

Guy Weller

Could be Guy.

Lawrence Slater

Yes it is the same with designer wear I know a story about Burberry When they pulled out of manufacture in the UK they went to China and set up a contract for their goods to be manufactured at a staggeringly low price. The factory made the goods and were surprised at how few Burberry wanted. Funnilly enough they soon found plenty of takers for the excess products they were able to turn out :) They probably supply every market stall in the world :) Are they fakes? A couple of years ago I was in some sort of eastern European town in a market and a stall was selling Louis Vuitton, my wife a bit about Louis Vuittonand she complained about lack of this that and the other, the stall holder then said ah you want the real stuff and produced a bag that she decided was real? apart from the price!!! :)

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

A mate told me about a major turbo manufacturer that refused to supply a Chinese customer with turbos due to them either making or buying counterfeit turbos, I'll enquire which when I speak to him next. He also mentioned that he had to critique a Chinese engine that was a knock off of a big US diesel engine makers engine and it seems they copied an engine that was known to be poor and old tech and the original maker didn't even think it worthwhile reworking the engine as it wasn't cost effective. Comments also went that while you can copy an engine or the like given an example you can't get the tolerancing and production technology, that requires additional knowledge, maybe why China often requires things to be made there in order to get a handle on the production technology.

David Billington

The bearing supplier I am(was) talking with, is fairly well established, and is only a stones throw from the SKF factory in Shanghai. Interesting huh?

Lawrence Slater

Keep your old original RHP bearings and recondition them. Working out how much play there is in the bearing, for a given amount of play at the rim at the tyre, was discussed a few posts back. So I've been experimenting. I knew (because I keep so much "junk") I must have an old set of "worn out", RHP front wheel bearings somewhere that I changed years ago, and never threw out. So I went through all the stuff in old boxes in my loft and garage, and found 1 old set of RHP inner and outer front wheel bearings. I can't remember when I changed them, but it must have been at least 12 or 13 years ago. There should be another old set somewhere. The joys of being a hoarder. Anyway, I installed the old set of supposedly worn out RHPs I found into a spare hub. I took off one of the hubs currently on the Sprite, and bolted the spare hub with the old worn RHPs onto to the spindle. I measured the movement at the tyre rim where I could best see it (approximately 279mm out from the centre of the spindle), and it was about 2mm. I was surprised it was so little, because it feels like much more when you rock the wheel. And yes I did ensure it was the hub rocking, and NOT play in other parts such fulcrums and king pin/bushes. A bit of basic trig on right angled triangles, and the movement at the ball centres of the outer bearing, calculates at 0.119856631mm. Or about 4thou". So I divided that in half as the bearing is pivoting, thus 2thou" wear play in the bearings. I don't know how much that's divided between the outer and the inner bearings, but I do know from long past experience, that it's the outer bearing that wears more than the inner bearing. FORGET LOOKING FOR NOS RHP'S or worrying about buying modern cheaper alternatives, that may or may not fit properly. Look out your OOS. Old, old stock. Aka, worn bearings. Because you can re-face them. I just did, and there is no longer any play in the old RHP bearings that I put in the spare hub. The 2mm movement I described earlier is completely gone, and the hub spins freely and smoothly. I re-faced the inner (thrust side) face, of the inner race of the outer bearing. I did it by grinding it along some 280 grit wet/dry paper on the flat surface of an unused India oil stone. I did it over about 30 minutes in 3 intervals, trial fitting the bearing back into the hub and the hub on the spindle each time. Using a vernier calliper and feeler gauge, if feels like I ground off a little over 1thou", but it could be a little more or less. Either way, I've transferred my disc to the hub and I'm going to keep these bearings on the car for the next six months and see how it goes. But I reckon they are fine- revived. All I've done is compensate for the internal wear in the raceway, by bringing the faces back closer to the original tolerance. You could achieve the same thing by adding a shim behind the outer race, or reducing the length of the spindle spacer just as some people have done with the cheaper "non-face adjusted" moderns to make them fit. Personally I don't want to alter the spacer, and it was easier to grind the inner race than keep removing the outer race and trialling shims. Of course you could buy a set of Moss or sussex or any of the other 7000 series and shim those, but the advantage of this is that 1) you already own a set of RHPs, 2) they have the correct 2mm radius, 3) they won't be too tight, as you already know how much play there is in them. Why hasn't anybody done this before? Has anybody? I'd be surprised if I'm the first. Anyway, it works. Objections please, keeping in mind that it works. :) Here's a picture of the inner race, sitting on the wet/dry paper on the India oil stone.

Lawrence Slater

Neat! I had always assumed, but never really checked, that when a ball bearing was worn, there would be indentations or roughened tracks on the races, rather than a smooth even wear. In which case lapping the face of the bearing might get rid of the "slack" but I would be interested to know if they run quietly. Washing a bearing out, spinning and listening to it is one of the tests isn't it?

Guy Weller

Guy, the raceways were unmarked and smooth. When I've changed a noisey bearing, I've usually been able to feel a roughness and been able to see marks. But asuming that only a bit of play has develoved, and that they were properly greased and no water had gotten in, then I reckon that most will wear smooth and respond to a bit of grinding. I just washed the inners and outers in white spirit to remove all the old grease, and whacked the complete inner bearing into the hub. I seperated the outer into it's parts and washed that seperately. The other reason I chose to do the outer rather than the inner was that the outer is so easy to seperate into it's bits, and press back together again once the outer part of the bearing is in the hub. And yep they do run smoothly and quietly. I'll let you know if they continue to.

Lawrence Slater

I Tried to get a clear picture of the wear marks in both raceways of the outer bearing. You can definitely see where the wear from the balls has taken place, especially the distinct line on the inner raceway. In the digital picture they look a little different, the outer raceway appears more worn than the inner, but in reality they both look the same. There are no deep scores or dents or pitting. The surfaces feel smooth to the finger tip and finger nail. No doubt under magnification they would show much clearer wear, but nevertheless the bearing runs smoothly and is noise. free. Notice the yellow arrow pointing to the small indents. These are the effect of the balls being pushed in and out the outer raceway. There's a small lip that the balls are pushed over, and in the process it produces these dents. I can't find any marks on the balls. Are they a harder steel than the raceways? With the complete outer bearing out of the hub, I was a bit nervous at pushing the inner race and balls back into the outer. The outer race looks like it might crack without the hub to contain it. So I put the outer raceway into boiling water. The inner raceway and balls are then much easier to assemble into the outer. But even when the outer raceway is in the hub, it doesn't take much pressure to push the inner race and balls into place. I reckon this is a winner. Please try this at home. :) Or send me your old RHPs. :)

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, please to a test of your "tuned" bearings before recommending it to others, as I suspect you will find that they do not last for very long. The loss of case hardening of the race surface is what I think we are looking at in your photo (the dull area where the balls had worn the race). I appreciate your tenacity with this issue, and your ingenuity by trying to repair worn parts. It will be interesting to see how long they do last, but please don't declare victory until you have tested your theory! If, after, say, 20,000 miles, you have not seen any increase in play, then we can talk. Norm ":o)

Norm Kerr

That's exactly what I'm going to do Norm. I don't expect them to last forever, but I don't see why they won't do 20k miles. I reckon that if they have lost sufficient hardness, then adjusting them the way I have, will result in a very quick return of play in the bearings and detectable wheel wobble. But so far after almost 100 miles today and yesterday, there's no return of wheel wobble. I checked again this afternoon, because to be honest, I thought they might fail pretty quickly if they were going to fail at all. But so far so good. In the past I've driven on worn bearings for a long time. The wear doesn't seem to accelerate suddenly unless they are damaged or dry. It's usually the MOT that forced me to change them. That and the fact that they used to be so cheap and easy to get. Otherwise I've found that you can stretch the life of wheel bearings for quite a while, but I've never tried repairing them before. Although with tapers you adjust them as they wear, and with these being angular contact, there's a bit of that principle in it. Yes they have an amount of wear in them, but not so much that they are about to fall apart, so logically I don't see why they will wear any faster than prior to my removing them in the first place. If anything the wear rate should slow down now, as without the extra play, there should be little or no side to side vibration. But I agree, it remains to be proven. Others who are contemplating changing their worn RHPs should do the same. You have nothing to lose except a bit of time. So actually I recommend trying it now. :)

Lawrence Slater

PS. Some people only do 10k miles or less in 3 years. So if they last that long it might well be worth it. If they last 20k miles, it will definitely be worth it. I'm not doing more than 10k miles a year now, so on that basis it's going to be 2 years before I report back. I reckon 6 months, and if there is still no wheel wobble and the wheel spins freely and quitely, it's a success. I'll let you know around christmas time. :)

Lawrence Slater

so being as green to all this as I am back at christmas I ordered front and rears from Moss in a sale... Odds on them being ok to pass an MOT at the minimum? *prays*

D Paul

D Paul. The rears aren't a problem. It's only the fronts that have a question mark about the correct fit. You asked, "Odds on them being ok to pass an MOT at the minimum?" That's the big question. When are you going to install them? the fronts that is. Please do it soon and tell us here how the fit is. I.e. If there is any wheel wobble, or if they are too tight, or if they have the correct 2mm radius. Also, what did(will) you do with your old front RHPs. Did you read what I have posted below, about refacing your existing RHPs? You can send them to me if you like, I will experiment with them. A sale at Moss huh? Was that recently? How much?

Lawrence Slater

Cars just having the body work finished, then painting, then suspensions all ready to go back on so...2-3 weeks maybe? keep an eye on sebringsprite.blogspot.com ;) I know, was a buy lots and get 20% off sale which made them reasonable as needed ALOT of stuff: no major components just lots of little bits and bobs that soon added up. Will have to hunt in the boxes and see where the originals are and have a look. Will post findings up here in next few weeks.

D Paul

Wow just read the whole of this thread !! As stated before, I have had for several MOT's, the guy saying "bit of play etc in O/S/F wheel bearing". So got a bearing kit (cannot remember brand) from my mate at local motor factor who had a dusty one sitting on the shelf (last one in stock)It did have a label stating OEM So it got fitted and it was considerably worse than the one that came off. MOT man was OK and still passed it but only because he knew it was going to be replaced again and put an advise on the ticket.Wish I looked this up before but never had a need to, otherwise would have checked bearing numbers before making the job worse! After reading various threads & this one I was going to go the route of "bob midget turbo" with new SKF's but was concerned as nothing was said about radius clearance, that is until I got to this end of this thread, which sort of puts that one on the back burner. Lawrences' idea seems like a sensible solution whilst we wait for someone to make some bearings to the correct specs or find some 'old stock'. My question for lawrence is have you replaced the actual 'balls' or used the originals ? In the meantime I'm going to search for some elusive RHP's at a good price.

Ed H

Further to my post yesterday I had a chat with my bearing man and he said the distace peice will need to be shimmed as he has no OE bearings. From reading old posts I gather this means taking a small amount off the face of it which I can get my head round. But how can you check if you have removed the correct amount without full assembly and then risk messing up the bearing by pulling it apart ?

Ed H

Hi Ed, "So it got fitted and it was considerably worse than the one that came off." ----Welcome to my RHP renovation option then:). I assume you still have your original RHP front wheel bearings? "My question for lawrence is have you replaced the actual 'balls' or used the originals ?" And the answer is, I used ALL the original parts of the bearings, including the balls. There is no need to replace anything, only "adjust" the thrust side face, of one the inner raceways. You can do it to either the outer or the inner bearing. What I did was separate the OUTER bearing (because it comes apart and goes back together more easily than the inner), into it's constituent parts, and then grind down the inner face(thrust side) of the inner raceway, just enough to take up the internal play that had worn in the bearings. The outer bearing separates very easily because it's outer raceway is only half width. See my previous post for what I did. However, for those that take their hub off, and leave the inner race of the inner bearing stuck on the spindle, it makes more sense to adjust the inner bearing, since it is already apart. --- Note: That grinding down only one face, just as shortening the spacer would do, reduces the internal play in BOTH bearings. In another thread, Onno gives as one of his reasons for tapers, the ability to disassemble the setup. I've been thinking about that too. All that holds the bearings together, is a small lip to prevent the inner raceway and balls seperating from the outer, whilst they are not clamped in the hub. With the outer bearing, the outer raceway is half the width, and only has a small lip. I'm going to experiment grinding off a small section of the lip, just enough, so that the inner raceway and cage complete with balls, can be inserted and removed easily, with the outer race still pressed into the hub. That way adjustment will be extremely simple. Of course you wouldn't do this to new RHPs, but to a part worn set you have nothing to lose. I'm also thinking that the cheaper modern equivalents that don't fit properly, could be treated the same way. Instead of adding shims to them, seperate the outer bearing, grind off a section of the lip, remove some of the inner face and then fit. If not right, just remove the inner, and grind some more off, without even removing the hub. They'll be as adjustable as tapers then, just with a little more work involved. Anyway, I have now done over 500 miles on my renovated offside RHP bearings. The wheel still spins freely, with no noise, and is without any detectable play. --- So far you all say. --- Well I say in answer, that when you first detect play in the bearings by rocking the wheel, you can still drive for at least 20k miles before changing them. I know this beacause I have done it in the past. Only the MOT forces the issue. How long before they would get so bad that they failed completely? Nobody knows because everybody changes them, because driving on wobbly wheels is annoying at the least, irrespective of the MOT. However, it would appear that nobody has tried refacing the bearing to remove the internal play and thus extend the life of the bearings (there was no point or need), --- until now, and it's working well for me. So, if you still have the original RHPs you took out, give it a try. You only have time to lose.

Lawrence Slater

Ed, see my last post. Also, either send the bearings back for a refund, or grind some metal off the inner face, of the inner race, of the outer bearing, to reduce or eliminate the play. Measure the amount of movement at the outer rim of the wheel and work out how much movement there is in the bearings. Or just guess and remove a thou" to begin with. I am of the opinion that taking the inner out of the outer bearing doesn't do much harm, if any. But see my suggestion for removing some of the lip, so that it can be done easily. If you already have the bearings, and aren't getting a refund, you have nothing to lose by experimenting with them.

Lawrence Slater

Here's an interesting email reply I just received from SKF, in reply to my question about the correct specification for Spridget front wheel bearings. "Hello Mr Slater --- --- We currently do not do an equivalent with a 2mm radius, however one of our engineers owns a MG and is a member of the MG owners club. He has checked their website and they sell the correct for application bearing. The details are MG owners club 01954230928 sales@mgocspares.co.uk Kind regards Stefan" So has anybody bought the MGOCspares bearing kit, and can they confirm them to fit correctly? It says on the home page, "Original Specification MG Parts"

Lawrence Slater

Interesting might be worth dropping the MGOC an email. Although unless someones fitted them then nobody is any further forward......

Ed H

I have Ed, I'm waiting for a reply. If I don't get one, I'll ring em up. Since they claim to supply OEM spec parts and are MGOC, I reckon they ought to back that up.

Lawrence Slater

Hi all, I have been having this same bearing issue with my 1968 Morris minor. I also had the same experience Lawrence did with contacting BUll Motif about their kits and was told they were made in eastern europe..seems they must be moving around a bit as they told you India haha Anyway I contacted Orinoco bearings in Leeds and chatted to a guy called Graham who was very helpful but unfortunately quoted me £260 for doing both sides of the minor which I thought was a little steep. So I contacted R&M bearings in Scotland and they have done me a full set of NOS RHP 39/LJT25 and 11/MJTT17 for £136 inc postage which I thought was reasonable. I am waiting for them to arrive but I shall let you know how I get on. Lee

D Robertson

Hi Lee, How long ago did you contact Bull Motif? I think there might be a bit of confusion from my post. The chap there that I spoke to told me that the kits they USED TO supply, might have been made in India, but because of fitment problems he no longer sells them. Instead he had kits specially made as exact copies of RHP bearings from a QH QWB105C kit. And he now assures that the bearings do fit properly. Pity you didn't buy them, but I understand why you didn't want to faff around. In the end something will have to happen. I don't know how much NOS is still around, but if you paid 136 quid for both sides, and got original bearings, I guess that isn't too bad, considering how long they last. But eventually all the NOS will be gone, and then everybody will have to play around with shims, unless someone can find a source of cheap moderns that DO fit properly. So far Sussex are still claiming a correct fit, and there doesn't seem to be anyone contradicting that with direct recent evidence that they don't fit properly. So too with MOSS, but we might get an update on that from D Paul when he fits his Moss kits. So far though, Moss and MGOCSpares, are yet to reply to my emails, inspite of my telephoning them as well. I'm beginning to suspect they would rather not answer the simple question, --- "do your kits, marketed as OEM GHK1142, meet OEM specifications and fit?" As for my experiment with worn front original RHP's, in which I ground some metal off the face of the outer bearing inner raceway, I'm pleased to announce that there is still no wheel wobble. So after over 600 miles which includes bouncing around over kents potholed roads, my renovated front offside RHP wheel bearings are still spinning noislessly and freely without wheel play. So don't throw out your old RHPs, you might use them again one day.

Lawrence Slater

Update from Moss. They are looking at various suppliers to see who can supply a bearing with the 2mm radius, at an acceptable cost. But here's the really significant bottom line. They've done tests on the bearings in the GHK1142 kits they are selling, and --- -- "The bearings show no sign of movement on a dial gauge which is calibrated in 0.001” increments." These are the basic non face adjusted bearings. I think that suggests that it is possible to get a modern bearing made to a close enough tolerance, and still sell it at a cheap price. When D Paul reports back, I won't be surprised if the bearings fit properly, apart from the issue of the inner radius. If this is the case, then the issues that push up the price would be to go for face adjusting that isn't neccessary, and resolving the problem of the 2mm, which makes the bearing a special. Here's more from whole email reply. "Dear Mr. Slater, ---------- I have been in contact with a couple of the major branded bearing companies and unless we have 1,000,000 bearings made, they will not make a bearing with a special radius I agree that the original bearing 34LJT25 has an internal radius of 2mm and we are looking into having this bearing remade. Up till your first contact, we were not aware of a problem. We are now in contact with a company who makes a bearing that it as close to the original as we can find. We are awaiting samples. This company is not a recognised major brand of bearings so we need to focus on their quality. This then throws up another potential problem as we will then have to find a supplier to manufacture the outer bearing 3MJT17. This is due to modern equivalent bearings having a contact angle of 40° as standard. The original bearings had a contact angle of between 21-26°. I am not sure at this moment if using a 40° angle bearing and a 21-26° angle bearing will cause premature failure of one of the bearings. The drawing of this part you supplied does not have enough information for manufacture. A sample of an original will need to be supplied so that basic load ratings can be worked out. We are also aware that when the cars were first manufactured, the tyres used were cross ply and that a 21-26° contact angle would of been worked out by the bearing manufacturer as being fit for purpose. Now cars use radial tyres with better grip, the bearing suppliers probably increased the contact angle to 40° to compensate. Hence another supersession. The 40° contact angle is now the industry standard. What I have also found out is that not all stub axles have a 2° radius. I have some early ones here that are only 1° radius. This may account for a lot of the kits being sold without a problem. I have been in contact with SKF and got samples of the 7303BECBP 7205BECBP bearings you mention and these do not have a 2° radius. They are 1° as per all the other bearings available with a 40° contact angle. I have heard of original kits being still available which is ok for the individual looking for a set but as a supplier, I need to find a source that can supply in volume. As Pete mentioned in his email, we sell over 600 kits per year plus other sales of the individual bearings. As for bearings being face adjusted, this usually applies to bearings that are next to each other, either back to back, face to face or in tandem. Today’s modern bearings are hardened and ground so that they are virtually face adjusted out of the factory. The bearings show no sign of movement on a dial gauge which is calibrated in 0.001” increments. Face adjusted bearings reduce this tolerance to 0.0001” but put the price up by around £100.00 each bearing. The only way a face adjusted bearing would be of value in a wheel hub would be to have the spacer and any shims face adjusted as well. If the spacer has a run out of 0.0005”, it would mean the face adjusted bearings would be out of true. For the time being, we will continue to sell the GHK1142 kit as it is as there is no alternative is available. In the meantime we will be working with our suppliers to get samples and do various tests including an on the car test." Email reply ends Kind regards. ----------------------------------------- Interesting stuff I'm sure you'll agree, and Moss can't be accused of ducking the issue. And this bit is worth noting again. --- "The bearings show no sign of movement on a dial gauge which is calibrated in 0.001” increments. Face adjusted bearings reduce this tolerance to 0.0001” but put the price up by around £100.00 each bearing." Robert, could you supply Moss with the full working drawings?

Lawrence Slater

Very interesting reply. Not least that someone has spent the time to read and understand the issues that you put to them - which is often not the case - and give you a detailed and helpful reply, backed up by facts. His comment "modern bearings are hardened and ground so that they are virtually face adjusted out of the factory" would explain why many installers have not reported a problem (presumably not spotting the slight off centre disc/calliper that indicates a problem with that inner bearing radius) Not quite resolved, but I think this can be marked down as a definite success for you. At the very least you made them aware of the problem and they seem to be prepared to put effort into doing something about it. Well done for your tenacity!

Guy Weller

I agree Guy, I replied with a few comments about the main issues being the 2mm radius and the internal bearing clearance, and not the fact that the moderns are 40 degree. I also suggested the possible solution of using shims, that Moss could supply with their kits, to overcome the 1mm radius issue with modern bearings. I received a reply this morning, essentially saying that this has already been considered as being perhaps too costly, has potential alignment problems for the split pin hole, might cause additional adjustment problems, and is moving away from the original design too much. I thought that was a decent reply, and as you say Guy, it does show they are prepared to put in the effort to resolve the issue properly, and not just fob off their customers. If Moss are indeed supplying bearings that are that close in tolerance, and they have no reason to mislead people on this, then apart from the 1(2mm) radius issue, the problem is pretty much resolved, at least with Moss. Although Moss don't feel comfortable supplying shims to overcome this, I personally wouldn't be adverse to it if I needed to buy a bearing kit from them. I'd use one on the spindle and one behind the oil seal, and not worry about the disc being off centre, as long as it didn't touch the caliper. I haven't heard back from MGOCspares yet, but as a reputable company, I've no doubt that they too are looking into this. PS. It would help if Moss had access to the full drawings. Can anyone supply them to Moss?

Lawrence Slater

I find the comment "modern bearings are hardened and ground so that they are virtually face adjusted out of the factory" rather odd as it seems to imply that the original bearings weren't hardened and ground which of course they were. When I get a moment I may look up the face alignment tolerance for a standard bearing and see how it compares with the 0 to 0.001" IIRC given by the R&M data.

David Billington

David, I suspect it's likely to be poor choice of words to describe what was actually meant. I took it too mean that, as well as hardened and ground, -- which is not relevant, as they were also hardened and ground 60 years ago, as you say, -- today they are made to a tolerance that is akin to the bearings of yesteryear being face adjusted. Do you have any comment on the 21 - 26 degrees angle of contact that the reply talks of? Do you have a fully marked set of the drawings for both inner and outer bearings, that you could provide Moss with?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence Do the drawings on this link suffice they appear to be the original RHP ones (you have to scroll down several pages to get to them) Ed http://www.mgexperience.net/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html

Ed H

Hi Ed, Those are the drawings I sent to Moss, but the reply I received says that the 3mjt17(outer bearing)drawing lacks enough information for manufacture. I guess they don't want to assume that the internal clearance, and load markings on the other drawing 34ljt25, also apply to the 3mjt17. But, and I'm guessing here, I would assume they do. Moss have also sought a sample of the BullMotif bearing kit I mentioned earlier, for comparison/testing. So I reckon they're being pretty thorough. Thanks for the emails btw.

Lawrence Slater

It will be very interesting to see if Moss find the Bull Motive ones a good replacement .if they do at least then there is source that 2 of the specialist suppliers could use

Ed H

Just when you thought it was all over. :) I've received a reply from MGOCSpares. Ed, did you email MGOC too? Anyway, here it is. :) Hi Lawrence & Ed, Apologies for the delay we have been awaiting a comprehensive reply from the manufacture, but despite several follow up calls, they have failed to provide a satisfactory response to your questions. However we had been aware for some time, of the ongoing discussion on the BBS forum and had made previous enquiries with the supplier to verify their suitability on Midgets and Austin Healey Sprites. We have continued to inspect our stock of midget wheel bearings and are carefully monitoring return rates. Whilst we're unable to answer your technical query without first verifying the data with the supplier we have at least established that our supplier is the same as Moss Europe and that given the thorough reply you have already received and posted from their technical department, it should provide you with some confidence that both MGOC Spares and Moss Europe are supplying acceptable and crucially, affordable front wheel bearing sets for these vehicles. I would conjecture that the supplier in question feels that having fielded enquiries previously from the spares team and latterly from Moss Europe, that this issue had been put to bed and hence our request for further information has gone unanswered. We are in the process of conducting our own analysis on the GHK1142 bearing set. However as we have confirmed that Moss and are supplying the same bearing kit, we should find that our kits containing 7205B and 7303 will return the same 1 deg radius. In the meantime we have ordered a supply of kits from an alternative supplier with bearings stamped MJT17/LJT25. Sadly the smaller of the two bearings (MJT17) is now described from NSK as coming from a terminal batch produced in 2008 and that this kit will soon be NLA. We have secured a limited number of kits, they are expensive but we will be able to retain samples for future use and allow a handful to go on sale. The MGOC Spares team are dedicated to the marquee, staffed by loyal enthusiasts that restore, develop and drive these vehicles regularly. We refer to the discussion boards regularly, seeing them as a sounding board and adding to the wealth of information already in the public domain. We are receptive to your comments, responding where required and welcome your feedback on this issue but I would ask that given the technical nature of this enquiry and the seemingly large interest that it has created; that more time be given to gather all the facts in order that we can act in the best interest of the club and it's members. Best Regards MGOC Spares Ltd

Lawrence Slater

By way of an update for those seeking NOS RHP bearings, I have an earlier part number for the QH kits, QWB 156C. These have the brass caged bearings rather than the later resin ones. The number appears to have changed around the early 80's to the better known QWB 105C

Bob Beaumont

Lawrence Yes got the email too. Ed

Ed H

Ah, righty ho Ed.

Lawrence Slater

Hi Guys Just reactivated this so everything is in the same place . Lawrence Slater, Kent, United Kingdom, slaterlpj@btconnect.com Ed, do you fancy reactivating the original long wheel bearing thread and posting that there? If the Bull Motive bearings are made to the same spec as the original RHP's, that scotches the suggestion that it isn't possible to make them so cheaply, and confirms exactly what Bull Motive told me, that they had an original set copied by a bearing manufacturer. So there's the final answer. Buy Bull Motive, if you can't get NOS RHP. Add your comment Posted 08 October 2012 at 06:08:12 UK time Ed H, NSW, AUS 'Props' favourite subject again !! Anyway fitted new bearings & spacer about 300miles ago and no issues whatsoever. Just for information I used a Kit from Bull Motive the moggy specialists. The bearings look the same as original RHP's (unlike the modern replacements which I took out ) I was very careful with the hub and did notice some bruising that could have made the bearings sit proud so dressed that to ensure the bearings sat flush. I used a new spacer and popped it all together, no play and still no play after 300+ miles on NSW roads which to put it frankly are crap (rough and full of potholes). So maybe the solution is these bearings or maybe it was a combination of ensuring hub faces were good and using a new spacer. Anyway maybe this will help a few of you guys out. Ed

Ed H

Hi Ed, I think I'll email Moss again, and ask for an update. I know they were looking at the Bull motive bearings too, but when I last asked them, they didn't want to comment on another suppliers product. Perhaps this is why. If BM are supplying properly fitting FW bearings, and at a very reasonable price too, there's no need to shop for them at Moss or anyhwere else for that matter, if you aren't assured of a correct fit.

Lawrence Slater

Pics attached of original RHP's, generic 'modern 7205 & 7303' and Bull Motive kit. Thrust sides and non thrust. The 7205 is not together as it separated upon removal Ed

Ed H

Really ED, .... Seriously !!! You just had to didnt you .... The worlds an evil place, and ol Ed, is is enjoying his sunbath in it....hahaha Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop I could tell you were missing somthing in your life and needed to read up on 'Front Wheel Bearings' again............. Ed ;-)

Ed H

Oh wow! Front Wheel Bearings! Just when the psychiatrist thought he had me cured of the nightmares, the Longest Post in History reappears. I keep dreaming that by reading it I come to some sort of conclusion about the right bearings to buy. Of course, it IS only a dream. Prize for the best post in the middle of this lot? "Lawrence, is it raining where you are?" Still it directs interest away from torque settings for rear hub nuts. THere are some benefits then!

Graeme W

Beautiful sun this morning Graeme. Not sure about last night though as I was in bed when you posted. -- I think. :) Not a dream Graeme. Buy Bull Motive. They are the correct spec, and very reasonably priced. http://www.bullmotif.com/

Lawrence Slater

I wish i could be ARound in a 1000 years when Data archologist begin roaming and studing our postings so they can understand who we were... When they hit this site, it will fry there brains :S Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

:):):) Prop.

Lawrence Slater

The "wonderful" thing about these posts is that they rarely reach a concensus of opinion. If, dear reader, you start at post one and think "THis will tell me which front wheel bearings to buy" I can be pretty sure that before you get halfway you won't know whether you are on your a*se or your elbow (that may be a purely Brit expression) and by the end you probably won't care!

Graeme W

There is an easy solution which no one on this forum will take up......give to a garage ask them to do it don't ask how they did it and don't pay the bill until its fixed correctly. Nowhere near as much fun and a more expensive route. ;-)

Ed H

Ed you're wrong that is my much prefered route infact I'm sure I have done just that in the past cars are for driving not for getting coverd in oil and grease, a bit of routine simple maintenance and servicing maybe but after that I'd sooner pay someone else for the hassle

Nigel Atkins

Come on Nigel, you know you like to get your hands dirty sometimes. :) Well now, since we're all back in the mood for talking front wheel bearings, --- now don't deny it, you know you are :), ---- I think I'll update my RECONDITIONED original RHP front wheel bearings entries, but in a seperate thread, so as not to confuse the purity of this one. :) Bet you can't wait lol.

Lawrence Slater

>>Come on Nigel, you know you like to get your hands dirty sometimes. :)<< no I really don't as far as cars are concerned, I don't like old oil, old or new grease, paints, glues, old or new Waxoyol, the crud and muck you get mixed it with just about everything on the car I don't like the mess of Copperease, Vasoline, light oils, lubricating sprays having to repair or replace something that has already been done but not properly cars are just too messy - other than driving rant over :)

Nigel Atkins

Different people get different pleasures from classic car ownership. Some sad b*st*rds like me enjoy pulling bits off and trying to put them back again. If you become REALLY sad, that becomes more fun than driving them, and if you become REALLY sad and INCOMPETENT you probably can't get the car out of the garage anyway! S&Ms are simple compared to modern cars so working on them is reatively low tech but there are still a lot of issues and that's where bulletin boards like this one come into their own. What could be more absorbing than front wheel bearings? (That is a rhetorical question!). From my standpoint I can't see why anyone would want to own a classic and not want to tinker. I like the combination of learning new skills and harking back to life in the 60's when I owned a Mk1 Frogeye and could get back out from underneath without assistance. But I appreciate that not everyone needs to be likeminded! After all, some people like shouting at Lawrence!

Graeme W

tinkering, now there's the problem . . . too many classics are owned by people who rarely drive their car, their choice fair enough but a car's for driving in my book as we maoning at/about Lawrence I think we could get a concencus on that :D

Nigel Atkins

"After all, some people like shouting at Lawrence!" Personally, I never shout at the mirror. lol.

Lawrence Slater

I think quite a lot like shouting at Lawrence.... and vice versa of course!

Graeme W

Actually, it helps in person, coz I'm deaf as post in me left ear. :)

Lawrence Slater

What was this thread about?

Graeme W

Gremlins I think ;)

Lawrence Slater

would this thread be of interest , with respect to removing the issues with std bearings http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=76&source=T&thread=201205101927176438 Jonathon

J L HEAP

Not unless you have deep pockets. And I'm not really sure the issue exists anymore. Buy Bull Motive bearings. I read a post on another BBS (morris Minor) yesterday, confirming that they fit properly.

Lawrence Slater

Pockets do not need to be that deep,and pleased that Bully have been on the case again. Jonathon

J L HEAP

Jonathon, are you familiat with Bull Motive then? Past purhase experience?. Always useful to have a supplier vouched for by more than one or two people. IMO.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence Yes we use Bully loads,dealt with them for 20 years, but as with any supplier its still worth looking around. We know what to and what not to buy from all of the Minor suppliers, to ensure that our customers always have the best possible on the market. In return Bully sell our standard disc brake kits as their premium quality product

J L HEAP

Thanks Jonathon, very useful to know that for all the parts common to minors and Spridgets.

Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 31/05/2012 and 20/10/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.