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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Frontline experiences?

I have just had a Frontline front suspension kit fitted to my 1968 Sprite IV along with their 11/16" ARB 340lb -1" springs and their polybushes.
I wimped out and had it fitted because of time constraints, but had it done by an experienced workshop that I trust. They set the toe in to the recommended 1/16" and tweaked the dampers up one notch to 4 clicks from fully soft after a test drive.
I could feel a massive difference to the steering even making my way out of the car park. It feels secure in a straight line, positive, connected and not at all 'fidgety.'It's much more solid over bumps and potholes and doesn't get easily deflected. Overall a big improvement.
But the steering is very much lighter and doesn't self centre. The initial turn-in feels almost as if the steering wheel isn't connected to the rack. It's really disconcerting especially on wet roads on my journey home from the garage. A bit like driving on ice, just for a split second until the car begins to change direction. Once in a corner the steering begins to give some feedback.
"Are they all like that sir?" or is there something to adjust, possibly the tracking? Perhaps it's just me and I will adapt, learn some finesse in my input and trust in the level of grip. The rear suspension was recently overhauled, with new springs polybushes and tube dampers on the check strap mounts. The stub axles were renewed less than 1000 miles ago. The tyres are 145s on standard 3.5" rims at 22lbs front and 24lbs rear. Steering wheel is a 14" job.
Sorry for the essay. Opinions gratefully received.
Mark
M Crossley

sounds like something gone wrong

i've set up mine at zero toe (no toe in or out) and feals great and responsive (never had the manual great FL shiping must have forgot)

but how old are you tyre's
to me it sound like how my car handled with crapy old tyres
Onno Könemann

Mine doesn't self centre great, also set straight, but running 185/60r14 bridgestone potenza (new) can't compare before and after as built from bare shell. Have done pleanty of searching and the self centering part seems to be a common theme... Am considering trying needle rollers on top trunnion.
David
David Hunt

Does the steering turn ok or is it stiff. I wonder if they have had the trunions off and forgot the shims. If not then a castor angle check is in order, may be that the holes in the brackets are wrong and you dont have castor??

W shop manual should give the specs.

Cheers

Mark
Mark Turner

When you say "self center" what do you mean by that?

Do you mean the steering wheel wont come back to the center...AKA you have to manually have to turn the wheel to center? How far off center is it?

I got the kit, but no install yet.

Prop
Prop

For me if I let go of the steering wheel the car continue in whatever direction it was travelling, rather than returning to straight ahead. steering is not heavy, but not free enough to return under its own steam. ok with a little encouragement and can feel the tendency in so much as more effort required to add lock than remove it. Trunnions are shimmed correctly.
David Hunt

Just off my head that sounds like not enough toe, I know there is supposed to be an extra 2 degrees of caster built in...to much possibly?

Prop
Prop

Sounds dangerous, does it flop over in bends? Don't cars have around 3-4 degrees caster to self centre? I hope FL has good liability insurance, seems odd that the instructions don't give details of how to set up properly, do they publish specs of caster, camber etc?

Peter
peter burgess

Hi Mark

Have you spoken with Frontline on this?

I use a very small amount of toe-in, possibly less than 1/16. Maybe you should have it checked (most places check FOC) or do it yourself.

The self-centring on my midget is not strong.

Like most, I love the FL suspension conversion (same spec as yours).

145s are not the best tyres to take advantage of it.

A
Anthony Cutler

Mine's set up with about 1/16 and I must admit I think the conversion transformed my car. However, the self-centring isn't brilliant but to be honest it wasn't great before I installed the FL kit either. My car has KN Minators with 155 Goodyears.

I do think that if your daily driver is a modern front-wheel drive car, the self-centring is much more obvious than on older rear-wheel drive cars - maybe has a part to play too.

Matt
Matt

Yeah, my daughter experienced the same when she drove the Midget the other day (with FL suspension). She too is used to front-wheel driven cars and self-centering as well. After every bend or turn my daughter took an aim for the hedges or any other obstacles. Talking about 'steep learning curves'.
Regarding myself, the steering of the Midget is soo much sharper than the mini 1000 we used to drive, our Pug 106, let alone my SAAB 9000. Totally uncomparable.
Rolf

I find the FL kit great especially for London driving. It handles speed bumps a lot better, gives a much more comfortable ride and never bump steers like it used to.
On track I assume that it's a great improvement but I never drove on track without it. I do know that I can take my hands off the wheel at 100mph and it runs straight as an arrow (assuming that I have equal pressure in bot tyres.
By comparison, when I first got my new Renault Megane, on fast cornering I was fighting against the self centering steering as it was so much stronger than my previous one.
Gary Lazarus

Hi Matt

I don't drive front wheel drive cars, I cannot recall a rwd not self centering when all is set up, that includes old 4 x 4s, escorts, sd1s etc etc ....only thing I recall not self centering is go karts and they don't have suspension do they?

I thought the toe in made the car more stable in a straight line but slower top speed whereas no toe in or out gave higher top speed but tended to wander in a straight line and not as responsive into corners?


Peter
peter burgess

Just found this, tis MGB but....

http://www.british-cars.net/mgb-technical-bbs/tie-rod-ends-and-steering-probs-2008042001221921716.htm

Peter
peter burgess

Thanks for all your suggestions chaps.
Having gone out to inspect my car now the rain has stopped, I can SEE that there is a large amount of toe out. quick run round the block in the dry also revealed lots of tyre squeal on any sort of corner even at low loads.
It would appear that my trustworthy garage has forgotten to reset the tracking as I asked, and also as mentioned in the FL instruction sheet that I left with them. (They also hadn't tightened up the battery earth lead which dropped off on my way in to work. At the head of a queue at a red light. After I'd just blasted past most of the other queue members.....bug*er.)
I've just dropped the car at my local tyre place. Not ideal, but I'm off for a long weekend round Snowdonia in it early tomorrow. They really inspired me with confidence when I mentioned 1/16" toe in and they just looked blank. I finally found the old guy out the back; atleast he seemed to know what I was talking about.
I think the morals of this tail are "If you want a job doing properly, do it yourself" and "Patience Grasshopper".
Anthony, wheels and tyres are next on my list.165/70s and Minilites seem to be the thing to go for unless there's a more standard looking 4.5" rim that isn't a Rostyle.

Fingers crossed,
Mark
M Crossley

Has anyone got the instuction sheet that I could have a copy of?
Mick - trying to sort the wiring

For what it's worth, I have a completely standard setup (apart from some 165/70 tyres on 5.5 rims) and I have little self-centring either now or before I changed from standard wheels and tyres.
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Hi Mark

When you have -ve camber (FL kit gives ~2 deg), the wheels can appear to be toed-out even when they're not.

It's quite easy to check yourself on level ground with a long straight bar.

I now adjust my own tracking, since none of the shops around here and Worcester seem to be able to operate their complex laser devices OK.

Even had to set the tracking for the TypeR myself (front and rear IRS) with the same method ... after 3 sessions (2 at the same place where the operator on the 2nd time said: 'who set this up last?' to which I was able to reply (with receipt) 'you!'. Embarrassed look from operator. After 3rd session at place in Malvern with similar equips (and lots of maths to do apparantly) and another set of badly worn tyres at £115 each I used the bar at-home-method. It's not 100%, but much much better than the professionals could achieve.

IMO the more you can do on the car yourself, the more confident and the better it will be. (I accept that there are some very experienced and competent MG suppliers who read/contribute to this board, and should make it clear my comments are aimed elsewhere, esp. the non-MG people.)

A
Anthony Cutler

Hi Peter,

I don't disagree with you that RWD cars should self-centre just the same as FWD. Just that I think the majority of people these days are probably more familiar with driving FWD cars, which I find self-centre much more obviously than RWD - especially if I jump out of our modern Vauxhalls and straight into the Midget. First time my wife drove the Midget, she has great difficulty making it go in a straight line - she'd never driven a RWD car before.

I do find the Midget is very sensitive to wheel alignment. I made up my own guage (used to set up Formula Fords back in the 70's/80's and we had a great 'manual' one then - none of this optical nonsense!) and experimented a bit. I found that FL's 1/16 toe-in was about the best to suit my car's setup. Still doesn't self-centre well though but I'm not going to play about with castor angles etc, as I can happily live with it as it is.

May just be a Midget thing, as all the old Mk 1 & 2 Escorts, Capris etc. I used to play with were all much better from a self-centring viewpoint - they all had much more castor than my Midget - even on my old Escort with Capri front struts and tons of negative camber.

Cheers,
Matt

Matt

Hi all,a cheap track guage can be made with 3 pieces of Dexion or similar angle metal for shelving, long piece on the LEVEL floor,2 short vertical pieces and 2 long bolts and nuts to adjust against inside wheel rim. Works fine for me.
Regards Alistair.
A.G Peters

How does the frontline kit perform in autocross (parking lot racing) being that the self centering isnt up to par...Im guessing lever shocks are the better option for that type of racing...would that be correct?


Do wire wheels, original roystles and aftermarket wheels make a differance on the self centering of the FL kit?

Anthony,

You are absolutly dead on, Avoid modern day machanics...they have no clue and all you get is a bogged job, heart ache, and a thinner wallet, If there is no computer port there lost....ALL ways find a good british mechanic, or do it yourself. Trust me I have vast experiance to drawl from


Prop
Prop

Not self-centreing? - why would anyone want to go in a straight line in a Spridget?!
Guy Weller

Thanks for all the help. Having the tracking set to the recommended 1/16" has transformed the feel and grip. I've been doing multiple laps of my favorite roundabouts on my way home.
The self centreing effect is back to how it was before the FL kit was fitted, but the car is loads more sure footed on bumpy corners. The grip level is much higher, I suppose mainly due to the -ve camber. This is all compared with suspension overhauled less than 1000 miles ago using uprated lever arms and poly bushes, so the improvement isn't just 'cos it was knackered before.
Frontline setup - highly recommended.
Now it shows up the rear suspension and crys out for better tyres and more horsepower!

Suggestions on a postcard please.

Mark
M Crossley

Fit a k series
Mick - trying to sort the wiring

Toe setting shouldn't affect the self-centring much. That is a function of the caster angle, which as Peter said way back up the thread, is ideally around 4 degrees off vertical. The MGB was built with 7 degrees caster and this can be safely reduced to 4 with modern tyres.

As for toe, the ideal setting sees the wheels travelling exactly straight when the car is in motion. That means the tyres don't scrub and wear out too soon. So for a rear wheel drive car this often means the wheels toe in when stationary because the tyre drag makes then feather out a little as you push them along the road.

One of the best bits of kit I ever bought is a gunsons Trackrite gauge. This is a plastic plank that you carefully drive over and the twisting motion of the tyre causes a reading on a marker on the gauge. You then adjust the toe until there is no twisting and no deflection of the marker. It is such a brilliant design because you don't need to know the toe-in or toe-out. You are setting the wheels to run straight and true when the car is in motion, so completely avoiding tyre scrub and unnecessary wear. It is a bit pricey, but I wouldn't be without it. It works for absolutely any car, front or rear wheels. And no, I don't work for Gunsons!
Mike Howlett

Have RTL & frontline on rear and equally impressed!

Don't know where to send the postcard to! ;)
David Hunt

I had the same lack of self centreing . I cured it (more or less) by undoing the top trunnion and inserting a large washer approx 2mm thick, between the FL top arm and the trunnion. Hey Presto increased caster ! I didnt need to use any force to get it in, and all the bushes are new poly
na munn

I am with Mike on the Gunson Trackrite, it means you can check the Tracking yourself, any time, without going to the giant machines they have in tyre shops now, which never seem to get it right.

Dave
Dave Barrow

Here is a couple places that sells the Gunsons Trackrite gauge...the 1st has a really good photo, but Im still a little shakey as to how it works, there appears to even be a forum justfor the gunson

http://www.ahspares.co.uk/products/GUNSONS-TRACKRITE-MSC217.aspx

http://auto.frost.co.uk/search?p=Q&lbc=frost&uid=459888862&ts=v2&w=Gunson%20Trackrite&af=br:gunson&isort=score&method=and&view=list


http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=39618


Prop

OPPS Sorry...the 1st site decribes its operation perfectly ...closer to the bottom...I like it,
Prop

If a Gunson Trackrite is as good as their gas analyser or their carbalancer I would not bother (neither are any good in my opinion) Does this Trackrite actually work??
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Chris
Yes its easy to use, and works a treat.

Dave
Dave Barrow

Still agree with Alistair's earlier post - 3 lengths of Dexion, a few nuts and bolts - instant, accurate alignment gauge. Much cheaper than a Gunson! After all, how often are you going to need to check the alignment.

As with all wheel alighnment adjustments, make sure you centre the rack first, otherwise you may end up with more steering lock on one side.

Matt
Matt

I set mine with two lengths of 5/16" wooden dowel, cut to roughly 3/4 of the width between the inside faces of the wheel rims. Fasten the dowels side by side with a couple of elastic bands and then slide them so that the ends "measure" between the wheel rims. Check at the rear and at the front of the wheel; close up under the chassis at the rear and over the chassis rails at the front. Mark the overlap in each case and the difference in the marks shows the amount of toe-in.

Guy
Guy Weller

Hey matt,

Having difficulty visualising Alistair's earlier post - 3 lengths of Dexion, a few nuts and bolts - instant, accurate alignment gauge.

its the same as the gunston trak rite?


got any pics of how or what alistairs thing looks like

Prop
Prop

Hi Prop - I'll try and take a few pics of mine when I get home. Basically, it's a 6 feet length of dexion, with 2 shorter (12 inch) uprights - one bolted to each end of the long bit at rght angles to it. The distance between the uprights should be roughly 4 inches wider than the track of the front wheels.

Slip the long bar across the floor under the car and stand it up hard against the tyres (either at the back or front of the wheels).

Stick a long bolt horizontally through one of the uprights, at the mid point of the edge of the wheel rim. Lock it off with a nut when it's touching the edge of the rim.

Go round to the other side of the car and repeat the long bolt process in the other upright. You now have an exact measurement from one outer edge of the wheel rim to the other.

Keeping the bolts locked tight, slide one of the uprights towards the centre of the wheel and push it in. This lets you pull the other end free from the wheel on the opposite side and you can slip the whole gauge away.

Lie the gauge down behind the other side of the front wheels across under the car and slide it in against the tyres. Stand it up and, in the same way you pulled it out from the wheels before, wiggle it into position against the edge of the rim again.

With one bolt positioned against the rim, the other one will show you the difference in width across the car at that side of the wheel - ie. the amount of toe-in/out.

For my midget, it's 1/16" narrower at the front, giving 1/16" toe-in.

Sorry it's so long-winded - honestly, it's a lot easier in practice!

Matt

Matt

Prop,
In effect, they are manufacturing a specific-use caliper. You must be sure to make it as rigid as possible. In theory, you could make the arms long enough that you could make both measurements with the bar across the front of the tires, although that would require more rigidity. Since you only intend to use it for Spridgets, you do not need to make the arms so they can slide on the cross-bar, making it more reliably accurate. A good 10-foot chunk of aluminium angle would probably give you everything you would need other than the long bolts and nuts.
David "I think there is a rack I could take apart for this..." Lieb
David Lieb

David,

The one that I've used before was very simple and easy to use but not sure who made it. It was intended to be used on the inside of the wheel rim so you had to get under the car. You could make one very easily with some 3/8" x 3/8" Al bar and some 1/2" x 1/2" x 1/16" Al channel. The end arms would be formed with 3/8" square AL and form a sort of _/- shape so the centre is dropped to clear the chassis. Each end arm fits into the channel, one being fixed and the other able to slide for adjustment. All you need to know is the difference between the front and back of the rim and that is easy to judge once the minimum width is set.
David Billington

Prop. Like this, sort of.


You have to roll the car back a few yards and then forwards a yard or two so that the wheels will lean apart a bit due to them being pointed outwards as they take up any slack in the steering joints. Imagine reeeeeally worn joints and how the road friction will cause the wheels to angle outwards/backwards around the kingpins.

Stick the whole assembly under the car and get the 2 pins to touch the edge of the wheel rims. Wind the screw in until it just touches both rim edges and then slacken it off one complete turn to get it out without knocking anything. Now stick the whole assembly at the front of the wheel and measure the gap between the rims once you've wounnd it back one turn. Should be about 1/8 to 1/16th less at the front edge. Adjust the trackrod lengths until you can do the whole process and get the right measurement. Don't just measure once and then adjust without redoing the whole process.


rob multi-sheds thomas

Rob,
Looks like the right side of your car had a bit of damage to the wing. Did this affect your alignment? ;-)
Also, was there a reason for using left-hand threads?
David "I'll just get my coat now" Lieb
David Lieb

Rob - Nice picture, despite David's observations...;-)

Only comment I'd make is that I wouldn't "wind it back one turn" as it isn't necessary and adds an additional opportunity for error. Locking it off tight at both ends, then 'wiggling' it out as I described works fine.

Cheers, Matt
Matt

My two sticks method is a lot simpler. It is a traditional method that joiners have used for centuries to take and transfer internal dimensions on things like window frames and drawer casings and is very accurate. It does however have two drawbacks. One is that you have to grovel under the car as it is measuring off the inside edges of the wheel rims. The other - more significant, problem is that it isn't possible to measure at the exact mid point (i.e 9 and 3 o'clock positions because bits like the chassis rails get in the way. You end up doing something like 8 and 4 o'clock so get a slight under-reading of the real toe in. Although I think the error is pretty small when you are aiming for just 1/16". I ignore this, set it at 1/16" and probably have a true toe in of about 1/12".

Always worked for me, the car "points" superbly, doesn't wander and has very sharp steering response.
Guy Weller

Of course it is a nice picture; that's why the jealous comments sneak in ;-)
Isn't it nice to have the option of in-line pictures now? Thanks Michael (I think)!
David "facetious" Lieb
David Lieb

All our Spridgets run a standard suspension set up albeit with different spring rates and damper set ups on some cars. I have driven many cars with and without frontline's 'sold well' parts and if a car is properly set up with std parts you can't tell it apart from a frontline set up.....

My opinion..... :-)

Mark.
M T Boldry

I just tried the trick from NA Munn, re the two washers on my frontline suspension, thanks, it worked for me too :)
Some time ago I had the suspension angles checked and the results were not good, less than 1 deg on both sides when it is supposed to be something like 3.5 deg!!!
I had virtually zero self centering, getting the tracking checked and reset helped a little, but the washer trick helped even more, still not perfect, but it feels far more "normal."
Graham.
Graham P 1330 Frogeye

Hey graham,

It also works with standard suspension, I found out solely by accedint some time back, was trying to create a gap for oils and residures to flow thur rather then collect around the shock body.
Props Black Hole

This thread was discussed between 12/08/2009 and 29/08/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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