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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Frontline mk1 front suspension rebuild

Frontline mk1 front suspension strip and rebuild
I tried to revive the archive thread that I created last year about this, but for some reason I can't, so here's a new one, with some of the posts copied from last year.

Posted 26 June 2011 at 08:38:58 UK time Lawrence Slater, Kent, United Kingdom,
Has anybody replaced the bush/fulcrum in the top arm of a Frontline tele scock conversion? If so, how much was the bush/pin? FL dont list spares seperately.

Posted 26 June 2011 at 13:12:06 UK time David Billington, Bath, UK
Lawrence, One thing that might be handy to know is what vintage or the type and dimensions of the bearings are. At least 2 different arrangements have been used over the years, the current, last I knew, is a hard anodised aluminium shaft and IGUS plastic bearings whereas the previous was a steel shaft and oilite sintered bronze bearings, the two not being interchangeable. The oilite should be obtainable from any good bearing supplier, the shaft if required might need to be machined unless you can buy the parts from FL.
--------- Answer. ----- I have the 1st version, the Steel pin/Bronze bush variety. Frontline tell me that getting the oilite bronze bush out is almost impossible.

Posted 27 June 2011 at 18:39:59 UK time Ian Webb '73 GAN5, 67 GAN4 & 59 Frogeye, Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Lawrence, I recently had mine apart for inspection and replaced the spindle on one side, I dont see anything complicated in there and I would have a decent engineering company would be able to turn you up a new bush from bearing material ( phosphor bronze cored bar). The old bush could easily be bored out with right machinery. I think thats what DB is saying also. Ian.

Posted 27 June 2011 at 18:46:10 UK time Anthony Cutler, Great Malvern, United Kingdom
I'm along now. I replaced both sides some years back, when FL did 'spares'.

>>Frontline tell me that getting the “oilite” bronze bush out is almost impossible As for the above statement... just not true... I had no problem getting mine out, using simple hydraulics. The problem is there's no exposed part of the bush which to clout (with suitable bar on an inside edge). The solution is to put the steel shaft back in, break out the grease gun and pump some grease in. This will start one of the bushes moving. Whilst continuing to operate the grease gun, stop the moving one from ...errrm... moving so the other one is encouraged to move. (I found this particularly easy since I have 3 hands ... no really, I'm on my own in the workshop.) Once they've both moved a litte, you can drift them out in the normal manner (they aren't that tight). I plan to replace the scintered bushes with something else, next time the clanking becomes too much. In the meantime, would like to hear others' solutions. BTW - mine have been in there for a long time. I bought most of my FL parts from Oldfield Park...HTH Anthony.

Posted 27 June 2011 at 20:53:48 UK time David Billington, Bath, UK
Lawrence, Last time I looked a couple of years ago the oilite bushes in the size FL used were available from a number of stockists. I think it was Anthony that posted the sizes he had in his. IIRC they were 3/4"ID x 1 1/4" OD x some length, can't remember that bit, so quite thick walled. See http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&exiturl=http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/%3Fcatid=2567%26att1=3%2F4%26att2=1.1%2F4%26att3=
and --- http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&exiturl=http://www.bowman.co.uk/Resources/Sint%20Bearings%20%26%20Excel%20LO.pdf for other sizes. Lots of options for pre-sized bearings exist but as yours were made for oilites that is likely a good thing to use. My experience with this design isn't directly with the FL units but I designed the originals that Tim Fenna, who started FL, copied, my mistake there for allowing him to do so. I used stainless steel bar for the journals on the originals and on one occasion I rotated them by 90 degrees as the wear was at the back and front of the journals not top and bottom, the oilite bearings having little wear. If I had the choice now I would use chromed ground bar for longevity but then I'm not trying to sell them.

That's about where I was last year End of June 2011, and as the car passed the MOT I didn't bother until yesterday. See new posts following.

Lawrence Slater

Anyway, so yesterday, I got around to stripping my Mk1 version of the Frontline front suspension conversion on my Sprite.

I rang FL to ask how much the cost of replacement arms is. This year it's circa £280 for both sides You dump the complete top arms and brackets, and replace them with the newer version that contains one brand of Polymer bushes. “IGUS” (http://www.igus.co.uk). Then I took mine apart to look at the wear.

I was expecting quite a bit of wear on the steel pin/bronze bush combination, judging by the amount of lateral movement at the end top arm. However, there was surprisingly little, and most of it as reported earlier, is in the bush. Some of the bronze was deposited on the steel pin, and although when greasing it, I had grease emerge at each end of the bush assembly, the bush appears to have been a bit “dry”. Obviously the relatively large amount of movement at the Trunnion end is the effect of the length of the FL top arm. So even a little play in the pin/bush, makes for quite a bit of movement at the end of the arm.

The pictures are self explanatory. I used the method Anthony described to get the bush out. It practically fell out. Less than a minute. VERY easy. You can see the wear on the bush and on one side of the pin.



Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

Did you post the wrong picture there or am I missing something. No bush evident and very little of the pin protruding.
David Billington

That was just pic one of the strip story. Having trouble posting the rest of the pictures. I'll try the next one again here. Wear pics to follow.


Lawrence Slater

pin and bush wear.




Lawrence Slater

Using the Anthony method of a grease gun to remove the bush. VERY easy to do this.


Lawrence Slater

And finally pics of the bush out of the Arm.


Lawrence Slater

Now the next stage, is replace the bushes, when I get my original shock bolts for a temp retro fit of the original shocks, so I can strip the FL arms and leave them off the car. For now I put this nearside one back, with pin rotated. It has made a difference, but I prefer new bushes.

David, the links you gave last year are still good, and the bushes are cheap, less than 3/4 quid per bush I think.

But I'm thinking of trying to use IGUS type bushes. They seem to be available in a number of sizes from various suppliers. They must cost less than the almost 300 quid FL want.

What do you think?

PS. I also think an additional couple of grease points are needed if staying with the oilites.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence

Useful post.

I think IGUS would be the way to go... let us know how you get on.

My o/s/f is beginning to clank on white lines; could rotate so the wear is 'somewhere else' as a temp fix.

BTW - once the shaft is slightly worn, the grease will find its way through better.

If I had 2 guns, I'd use EP90 or heavier instead of grease. In this case, would be good to machine a slot for an o-ring at each end of the arm to keep the oil in.

A
Anthony Cutler

I have the later version of the FL kit and am not to fond about it.
The arm has frozen to the bolt and now pivots on the frame....
Not a good thing.
Still thinking about how to procede with out sending more money to FL ....
Onno K

Lawrence,

Have a look at the Igus site as I got the impression you may be able to buy direct from them. You'll be wanting to look there anyway as they do quite a few varieties and metric and inch sizes. I don't know if they do any that would be a direct replacement for the oilites that FL used so you may need to use a tophat bush and make a sleeve for that to adapt it to the upper link. I assume that FL used such a thick oilite in order to provide a thrust face without using an oilite tophat bush. I believe the Igus material is self lubricating so will save that hassle of greasing although they may benefit from a bit of grease. The oilites should really be oil lubricated but as the FL link doesn't have any seals that wouldn't stay put for very long.
David Billington

At the risk of sounding completely retarded...

How did the wear occure and how long did it take...was it just dirt in the joints, wrong maintance lubes or was it a lack of maintance

Do you have any thoughts on how to avoid this kind of damage....im a little concerned as i purchased a frontline fit 2 years ago, and will eventually install it

Prop
and and the Blackhole Midget

I suggest that you phone Igus and talk to them (I know a little about this company and I believe they have some very good application engineers). They probably know the FL project and can tell you which grade of self-lubricating material was specified - though they might suggest something else if you are using a steel pin rather than anodised aluminium. Note that as well as standard bushes they sell bar stock that can be turned in a lathe to the size (and tolerances) that you need. Or they have a calculator on their website so you can enter the bush dimensions and they'll show you a price to machine them for you!

By the way, I have bought something from directly in the past - just beware that the piece part costs look good on the website but there is a relatively hefty carriage charge because everything is sent by next-day courier.

As for machining bushes to replace worn FL mk1 bushes, now maybe there's an opportunity for someone...

Be interested to hear how you get on, as I have FL mk1 arms on mine!

Jonathan
Jonathan Severn

Prop, this was the nearside, (passenger side). It was worn pretty quickly actually, and has just gotten worse over the years. I don't think it was dirt, just lack of grease perhaps, even though I pumped in loads.

The drivers side seems free of clunks, so might be far less wear, or none. I'll strip it tomorrow or the next day and take a look. Now I know how easy they are to pull apart it's worth the effort. If it is less worn, that suggest there was something wrong with the passenger side when I installed it. It came fully assembled and I just installed it.

Then I am indeed going to ring IGUS and tell them the story and see what they say. If they do a bush like for like size, and it's cheap enough, I have nothing to lose by just using it in place of the oilites, and see how it goes.

Looking at the oilites, I think I can buy off the shelf replacements an bang em right in, and with addition of additional grease points, it might be possible to make them last far far longer. If so, as they are cheap, I could buy say 3 sets of oilite bushes and those should see me long dead. lol.

The pin looks worse than it is. After taking the pics, I polished it with some ultra fine wet and dry, and there's comparatively little wear. As Anthony says, if I reuse it, the grease will spread around more easily. And perhaps a seal or o ring at the ends to keep the grease in might be a good idea too. The grease gun must exert a fair bit of pressure when filling the system, but once in, an oil seal of some kind would keep it in there, instead of it oozing out over time.

I wonder how many MK1 versions are out there?

Prop. How old is your FL version? Don't you have the new IGUS version?

Onno. It's pricey enough, why not try a complaint to FL. Doesn't sound very good if the new improved version has a seized pin. You never know, to avoid bad publicity, they might cough for a new pin or something.
Lawrence Slater

Forgot to say. I drove over 60 miles today on the rotated pin. I'm surprised how much less shake and rattle there is as a result of just rotating the pin. Mind you I also put the bush I removed back in a different position too. Don't suppose it will last long though.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

To be pedantic I think the FL link version you have is more like mk2 as there was an earlier version which was much closer to that which I designed originally.
David Billington

>>Onno. It's pricey enough, why not try a complaint to FL.<<
now that really did make me laugh

>>Doesn't sound very good if the new improved version has a seized pin. You never know, to avoid bad publicity, they might cough for a new pin or something.<<
give F'*ng L*ars their due they're masters at good publicity and avoiding bad
Nigel Atkins

Onno

When you tighten the bolt, the bushes are clamped to the frame, and this ensures (or at least encourages) rotation between the bolt and bushes.

So 1st recommendation is tighten bolt, squeeze some grease in and check rotation. Or, you could strip/rebuild and if nec, use washers (shall we call then spacers?) to ensure that the bush/washer is proud of the arm and so will clamp tight.

Somewhere I have a drawing of the design, should you need more background info.

A
Anthony Cutler

Anthony I have the self lubricating Igus thingy.
The problem might have originated in the fact that there has always been play between the arm and mount.
At the time I did not know any better but instead of tightening the bolt rock solid I think I should have shimmed it so the play would have been properly resolved.
Since then I have tightend it each 6months (for the past 5 years) least but started to notice a big reduction in comfort.
On investigation I noticed the bolt rotating with the arm and I have not been able to get the bolt out since.
Now in doubt between going back to levers or rebuilding/reengineering using a proper bearing.
Onno K

Lawrence, you say that the n/s one started wearing pretty quickly. This may be a bit of a naive thought, but it makes me wonder how well oiled the Oilite bushes were when originally fitted. You are supposed to immerse Oilite in oil for at least 24 hours before fitting. Just makes me wonder how rigorous the original FL assembly process was. If working in a rush it is just too easy to grab a component, dip it in the oil and fit straight away,and think the job is done! They look the same/ how could solid metal absorb oil/ who's to know?
Guy

Bill, I checked out your website, and agree I can see the subtle difference. So presumably I have MK1(a) versions. Purchased in November 1998 according to my receipt. Pity you didn't stay involved with the development.

As I asked a few posts back. How many of these are out there? (MK1a versions that is). They are fitted to Moggies too aren't they? There must be a quite few people wanting rebuilds. With FL wanting to sell you complete top brackets and arms at circa 300 quid, it seems to me than an enterprising engineer with the appropriate equipment, could perhaps make some coin on this by offering an improvement, or even an Igus alteration to the existing setup.

Guy,
Yup I agree. I wish now I had stripped them to take a look when I first got them. Instead, I just fitted them and greased them. I do remember that not much grease came out one end, on the nearside (the side I have most wear), and wondered how long they would last. I also thought they were pretty crudely finished for the price. £330 in 1998. So you could well be right about poor construction and assembly. The patheticly small allen grub screw fitted at the top trunion end of the arm for example, was obviously too small, and the thread in the arm hadn't been fully tapped. Consequently, it didn't screw in far enough, and the trunion bolt rotated. So I tapped it through, and changed it for something more substantial.

However, having said all that, given the inadequate lubrication of the pin and bush, apart from the clanking, it has lasted reasonably well. So I have a feeling that small improvements could have a big impact on future longevity.

Nigel,
I get the distinct impression that you will never forgive FL. :) I have to confess I find them a bit evasive when questioned. I also find it strange that they expect me to dump most of the version I have, and purchase 300 quids worth of replacements. It would be so easy for them to offer a kit to repair/modify the originals. Don't they realise they are not only rejecting business, but casting doubt on buying anything from them, as they don't appear to go in for after sales service/spares at all.

But if I were you Onno, I would call them or email them and complain. You must have paid more than I did, for the improved Igus version. I was told on the phone just the other day that I would be dead before the new Igus version wears out. Clearly you disprove that claim, and I reckon you have a decent reason to have a chat with them.
Lawrence Slater

Onno,

It sounds as though the spindle was slightly too short and not being clamped properly from the start but you have now suffered from corrosion between the steel bolt and aluminium sleeve, maybe FL never applied any anti-corrosion grease to prevent that. With no grease being required for the Igus bushes and steel and aluminium being a bad combination in the presence of water I expect you won't be the only one to find that happening. I expect you'll have to remove the unit and have the bolt pressed out and then see what can be done to correct the issue.

The aluminium sleeve I saw was about 2mm - 2.5mm thick from memory and it's possible that it could be permanently deformed when the bolt is done up if someone didn't get the design right. That wouldn't be a good thing as what has happened to your unit would be inevitable for the new design.
David Billington

Lawrence,
I think you'd be a lot less forgiving than me if you had experienced what I have with them

I think their interest is entirely in the next moneymaking project rather than product development

one of them is involved in a very expensive revival of an old name and these things usually cost millions go through various hands over a number of years and never really get anywhere, remember Jensen, at least they got a few cars out

the annoying thing for me is I went all the way out there to check their products out fell for their tactics and later for a while put up with excuses

I stopped wasting my time and energy when it finally dawned on me that I'd been through such things before and it's best to cut your losses no matter how little or substantial
Nigel Atkins

Lawerance....

Im not sure what i got...i know there new and i git them 2 years ago, ill have to reopen the box for a look...maybe this weekend i can
and and the Blackhole Midget

David
I figured it had to be something like that thanks for the clear explanation.
If I had known better when I first fitted it 5 years ago I would have been more critical.
But I gues I'll just have to deal with it now (well it won't be before the end of may until I have the time)
Onno K

Lawrence,

You seem to be calling me "Bill" again.

If I was to do any work on a FL top arm assembly I think I would want to do it as a you send me the units and I'll send it back converted basis rather than a kit for the owner to fit as I don't know how accurately they made the parts and wouldn't want to piss off people by supplying parts unless I knew they were going to fit and work well. Various comments here over the years seem to indicate that they were sometimes lacking in quality in some respects.

I do find it surprising that FL don't support their earlier version of the product with spares and it doesn't seem to be generating any good press for them to offer the spares option as a complete new upper arm and bracket assembly. I doesn't seem like it would be difficult to supply 2 oilite bushes and a new spindle as they have done in the past.
David Billington

David,

From what I understand from comments on the thread the thrust is taken by the ends of the oilights onto the steel upright fixed frame is this correct ? not a great surface area - the tophats you mentioned would have greater area.

How is the trust taken up with the IGUS inserts - never handled them.

With oilite or bronze bearings would a shollow groove not give better grease supply ? or pop a grease nipple into each bearing ?

I was going to convert but thinking again now.


R
richard boobier

David. Sorry, I can only plead blindness and senility, in equal measure.

Yes I see your point. The pins and bushes were probably accurate, but the bracket and top arm looks cruder, so could well differ from set to set, even from side to side. And I agree with you about FL. Seems crazy not to support the customer base with follow up spares and service. But Nigel seems to have the explanation for that. Still, I might just drop them and email, and suggest they get an act together regarding this. I've nothing to lose that's for sure.

Richard that's right, and as the plates/oilites wear, endfloat developes. So Eventually it will need shims or something. I'm definitely thinking of drilling 2 extra grease nipples in. One each, bang in the centres of the oilites, but on the side away from the thrust, so I don't reduce the load bearing surface. I suppose even cutting a shallow groove in the oilites would be a big improvement. But it would have to be blind at the ends to stop the grease just being pushed right through and out of the ends.

As for the "new improved" Igus version. It seems they fixed one weakness and introduced others.


Lawrence Slater

I don't have any Frontline stuff, and am not familiar with these suspension units. But to me, grease in open bearings of this sort has two distinct functions. The obvious lubricating one certainly, but also to prevent grit working its way into the bearing components. For this to work one does need to regularly pump grease in and allow sufficient to ooze out of the open ends of the bearing to clear any grit and dirt out of the thing. To achieve this (as with lower fulcrum pins) you need to be really lavish with the greasing, and apparently waste quite a lot! (but it is good for smearing onto chassis components!)

The other point is that I do wonder how much grease is absorbed into Oilite bushes? Oil impregnates, but does grease?
Guy

Richard,

Yes you're correct about the ends of the oilites bearing against the frame from what I have seen, not great but the oilites chosen are quite thick IIRC 3/16" inch thick. The tophat oilites with the same bore do have a larger thrust area. The Igus bearings I saw were tophat bushes so I guess they bear against the side of the frame also and provide a good surface to support those loads. I suppose in the circumstance a groove in the oilite to help distribute grease may be of benefit, like those in the stub axle.

Lawrence,

The bearings running against the frame plates isn't a great idea for the reasons you say. I provided replaceable cups for this in my design and they held the O-ring seals and took the thrust,

Guy,

Oilites really shouldn't be greased as it bungs up the pores in the sintered bearing. Oil is good as it can circulate in the bearing and apparently does so when they are used as a hydrodynamic bearing but they aren't in this case. Oil lube wouldn't stay put for long though as no seals are provided.


I do still wonder about the viability of using a kit such as the mini upper arm kit here http://www.minispares.com/Product.aspx?ty=pb&pid=37091&title=
as it is cheap, has bearings seals thrust plates (I think) and I suspect the oblong plate acts as a diaphragm to take up manufacturing tolerances and hold one end of the main pin. A local guy has a mini and I keep meaning to have a look at it for confirmation. I have one of these kits and it would require modifying the main pin but that is simple machining. Anyone familiar with the mini front suspension?
David Billington

David, that mini top arm rebuild kit looks very interesting. What's the O/S diameter of the bearings? As long as they are same size or smaller than the internal of the FL top arm, enough I guess the FL arm could be sleeved to take the mini needle rollers.
Lawrence Slater

David
I had a mini and did some front suspension work.
But never touched that part!
Well lubed they seemed to last for ever.
Next time I order something there I'll order 2 and see if I can find out if the later FL set is convertable (would be a neat solution!)
Onno K

I don't have F.L stuff yet although until I read this thread I was considering it. Disappointing to see some of the experiences you guys have had. Just seeing the Mini top arm suggestion.. Made me think of the last time I replaced the rear suspension arm on a mini - it uses a similar steel pin and roller bearings
as per this link

http://www.minispares.com/Product.aspx?ty=pb&pid=35034&title=

Not sure that will work - but the only other aspect is sealing out mud/grit - which is acheived on the mini with robber bands which fit on the edge of the arm and seal against the subframe..

Need to find a picture somewhere - it is simple and thought it could be adapted to suit the midget top arm...
John Barber

quick follow on - below is pic of the mini rear subframe pivot and the assembly - I think this might be possible to adapt to fit - or at worse copy the principle

http://www.heritagegarage.com/-/catalog/suspension/minicat8-15.gif
John Barber

I'm not sure at all that dirt/grit ingress is such a problem, at least on the pin/oilite version. The grease at the ends seems to have performed a pretty effective seal between the bush and endplate. But a positive seal can't hurt that's for sure.

I'm just about to strip the drivers side for inspection, and will take a pic or two to show the measurements of the pin and bush.
Lawrence Slater

The bearings in the mini kit are Torrington B1212 so 3/4"ID x 3/4" wide x 1"OD full compliment drawn cup needle roller bearing.

http://www.nationalprecision.com/needle-bearings/drawn-cup.html

I think they should fit the earlier version with oilites but not sure about the version with Igus bushes.
David Billington

I Stripped off the drivers side today, and measured the oilite bush. Inside Dia: 3/4" Outside Dia: 1.1/8" Width / Length: 3/4" This is the direct replacement from bearingboys. http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/?catid=2567&att1=3%2F4&att2=1.1%2F8&att3=3%2F4

Actually, the more I look at these, the more robust I think they are. The drivers side was slightly less worn, but showed clear evidence that enough grease wasn't getting to the bush. In fact it was "drier" than the passenger side, which was worn more. But on both sides, there is almost no wear on the bracket side plates. The wear is almost entirely on the oilites. So exactly as you say David, the thick wall of the oilite, (3/16") provides a bearing surface for the thrust of the arm, as the oilite bushes protrude enough to keep the arms from contacting the side plate. Although if enough wear occurs in the internal diameter of the bush, and on the pin, then the arms would sit at an angle and grind away at the side plates.

As the pins haven't worn much at all, on mine at least, I think just replacing the oilites will suffice. However, I'm going to take the pins to a local engineering shop and get a costing for replacements. I'll also ask about the ground chrome bar you mentioned David.

Looking at the Igus bearings, it seems they don't do a standard bush in this size. So it would have to be a special, or the arms/brakets would have to be machined to take the Igus bush. As the arms/brackets are fine, I don't feel inclined to spend money on that. But I'll call Igus on Monday, and ask anyway.

With the needle roller setup, I think it would be pretty easy to sleeve the arms down, to take the 1" O/D of the bearing, but how would you provide for forward thrust?

Lawrence Slater

Are needle rollers right for this application?

Needles provide a series of narrow points of contact around the circumference of the pin - depending on the number, maybe 20 or so. Great for a lightly loaded, high speed rotation, but surely for lateral loading of this sort what is needed is a bearing with a large contact surface area that will spread the load without hammering the contact points.
Guy

The only thing I would point out is that the Mini front top arm kit in the upper link is in the same plain as the midget top arm. The ground shaft runs in needles and the thrust is taken but substantial steel washers with grease paths machined into them. It all bolts up between two parts of the subframe. In all the years of running mini's I can't recall ever replacing one - I have had to do rear arm pivots though... Greasing is pretty important though. I would have thought either should work okay if properly lubricated. Often when you grease these joints the lube will find its way through one side easier and so the other may be more dry...


I can't realy see how the side thrust is handled on the front lie set up - surely it doesn't just rely on the bushings being a little bit proud of the arm ?
John Barber

Thinking about it further, the thrust loads are shifting constantly.

When stationary, the loads are evenly distributed, pushing the front rear bushes upwards and inwards, against the pin. On a straight road, when not breaking, the bush will rotate around the pin, and as the body rises and falls, the load must be transferred from one side of the bushes to the other.

Then when cornering, the loads move again. And When breaking, the end of the arm is pushed forwards, causing the front bush to load on the opposite side, to the rear bush.

So if needles were used, for a lot of the time, only a number of the needles would be loaded. But it works on Mini radius arms and front suspension, so perhaps it would work well here too.

Lawrence Slater

Hi John,

Yup that's exactly how the side thrust is handled. The front takes the most, and that's where the wear is most evident.

Once the bushes are removed from the arms, there is significant clearance between the arm and the side plates. I'll put a feeler gauge in and measure it. But when the bushes are in, it is a tight interference fit, and the bushes sit distinctly proud.

It works in much the same way as the oilite under the top trunion. The axle pushes up against the oilite, which takes all the load, and they last for ages.
Lawrence Slater

I'd love to see the engineering drawings for these, to check on how accurately these were made, and exactly what the design specification was, and also the jig used to weld them.

On the drivers side, below, the clearance between the arm and the side plate, when the arm is in the running position, is 0.030" So that's something less than 1/64", that the oilite bush sits proud of the arm either side. That's pretty close tolerance it seems to me.

I wonder if the passenger side is the same






Lawrence Slater

In my case I used 1.25" OD 10swg wall tube for the inner end of the arm that take the bushes, it was reamed to 1" after welding so it'll take the needle roller bearings directly. The thrust washers that come with the Mini kit are 1.31" OD so I may have to alter the arm a bit to increase the end surface area but it would be nice to use as many of the Mini kit parts as possible unaltered. I could also make a new pair of arms as I think the 2 degrees negative is too much for normal road use with 185/60 13 tyres which are currently fitted to the car. The main Mini shaft while hardened is quite easy machine and drill with appropriate tools so I presume it is only surface hardened to suit the needle roller bearings.
David Billington

Took off the passenger side again and now both sides are back to the standard shocks. I'll set the tracking tomorrow, go for a drive and compare the difference. Maybe I won't bother to refit the FL setup at all.

Anyway, the space between the inner arm and bracket, on the passenger side is the same as the drivers side, .015" each side, with the bolt up tight clamping the side plates to the steel pin. So the construction is consistent.

Going back to the oilites again.
I've just looked at the bearingboys site again, and they do a ID3/4" x OD1.1/8" x Length 1.1/4". http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/AI1218-20_Imperial_Plain_Oilite_Bearing_Bush_3_4_x_1_1_8_x_1_1_4-42726-p

That would provide for an extra 1/2" length of bearing surface.

That's an increase of 60% of bearing surface at each end of the arm. I wonder why this longer bush wasn't used?

It should be a simple matter to have the inner arms reamed/bored out to an extra 1/2" at each end I would have thought.

Any thoughts on this?
Lawrence Slater

I think if you combined that with fitting grease / oil nipples part way along each Oilite bush as you described earlier, then it would work. Without that it may be that the extra 1/2" length could mean that lubrication didn't fully penetrate the length of the bush?
Guy

Lawrence,

If you getting it machined then maybe you could also get the end faces of the arm recessed slightly for an O ring seal then you could use oil for lubrication instead of grease.

Likely the shorter bush was chosen as it was adequate and cheaper.
David Billington

That's what I was thinking Guy, extra grease points.

And if the machine shop made a mistake and bored slightly too deep, I could easily shim behind the bush to bring it out further.

But if this is a good idea, I still wonder why it wasn't made with a longer bush at the start. The bush is the same price and when the arms were made it wouldn't have cost anymore to bore an extra 1/2".

Do you think it might weaken the arm significantly?

David,
I was thinking that myself, but it would reduce the thrust face surface of the oililte by quite a bit I think. What do you think?
Lawrence Slater

Ah sorry David. You said the arm recessed. I wonder if there's enough thickness to let in an o ring. I'll have to measure.
Lawrence Slater

The front Upper wishbones on an alfa 147 are of similar construction. But they pivot on a shouldered bolt and use two Metalastic bushes. No lubrication system.

Mind you, they are notorious for going clonk in the night, - and in the day! They seem to have a life span of around 40K


Guy

For proper greasing, you need to machine a flat in the bolt from middle to edge of the bush, with a ring around the bolt in the middle. Maybe EP90 can penetrate OK un-machined.

A
Anthony Cutler

Hi Anthony. When you say the bolt, do you mean the steel pin?
Lawrence Slater

Yes; slip of the brain!

A
Anthony Cutler

Ah, good, glad it wasn't my brain doing the slipping for a change :)
Lawrence Slater

Well, with the original lever arm shocks on again and the tracking set, I took a long drive, dual carriage way and country roads. Even with a weak passenger side shock absorber, I prefer the steering, with the book quoted +3/4 degree camber (if that's what it is in actuality), to the quoted -2 degree of the mk1 version of the FL setup.

I find it far more relaxing to drive, and don't feel that it makes it any less stable round bends. I really did only buy and fit the FL kit, because I was fed up with crappy recon' lever arms. The adjustable AVO teles are what really attracted me, and still do. But apart from the damping, I was always more than happy with the steering with the original lever arms

So now, if I do rebuild/modify/refit the FL kit, I'm going to reduce the -ve camber back to something closer to the original. But I'm not into spending much money on this, as with adjustable top trunions and the like.

Instead, I'm going to find out how far the FL bracket has to be moved outwards, to produce per degree of +ve camber.

Anybody have any ideas on this?
Lawrence Slater

Just worked it out.

Bolt an original lever arm, back to back to an FL bracket with arm fitted, and measure the difference in the length to the centre of the top trunion bolt hole. That will tell me how much I have to "lengthen" the FL arm with respect to the Lever arm, to get the original camber.

Make sense?
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
today I gave the car a proper test run after fitting the gaiters and TREs and just as we're a mile off the revised lunch stop (our 'local' pub with excellently kept real ales) the front n/s brake makes a sort of lorry's drum brakes sort of noise as we crawl in a short queue, then as I rush toward the pub before anything falls off the nearside wheel area doesn't sound right

after first quick drink I check the wheels to find movement on n/s wheel - to cut a long story short it's the nut and bolt loose that the top arm swivels on (the only bits missing in your photos)

I now think that has been the cause, for about a year, of a tinkling noise from the front n/s when going over bumps or down holes, nothing like as bad as today mind

the o/s could only be tighten a very little

anyway as I was concerned about wear my mate said if he had the exact dimensions he could get his brother to turn one down for me on his lathe

so for future reference and to save me from having to dismantle mine and having the car off the road even more would you please be kind enough to measure things for me with calipers if poss - this is of course assuming my bolt is the same as yours

cheers
Nigel Atkins

"it's the nut and bolt loose that the top arm swivels on (the only bits missing in your photos)"

Not sure which you mean.

Do you mean the large bolt that goes through the inner swivel, shown here with the white arrow pointing at the nyloc nut?




Lawrence Slater

yes that's the one thank you

mine have washers or shoulders on the inside too (difficult to tell which with so much Waxoyl and I don't want to get dirty oat the moment)

sorry I thought yours were out of the car
Nigel Atkins

Yup mine are out. That was prior to removal.

How old is your FL conversion Nigel?

Does your installation look exactly like mine?

If you have washers on the inside of the brackets, it may be that you have the later version, with the IGUS bushes.

I post pics of the bolt length and swivel pin length for mine a little later , but if you have the later version, you'll have to strip it to get the correct measurements.

PS, I'm not a big fan of covering mechanical parts in waxoil/underseal. Makes for a far more difficult task when having to repair things. Paint and a bit of grease is all that's needed to protect mech parts.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

Not totally clear from your photos but I think it's evident from your last one that FL never provided any form of drain in the plate between the front and back web of the mounting bracket so allowing water and other road crap to accumulate.
David Billington

Hi David,
Yup that's true, no drain at all, just a solid steel plate. Although I have to say, apart from general debris, I have never had any liquid collect there.

Pics of bolt and pin coming up.
Lawrence Slater

Hi Nigel,

Here are the steel bearing pin measurements.

Length 81.26mm
Width 19mm
Internal 12.7 mm. (Locating bolt passes through here).

Bolt follows.






Lawrence Slater

Pin internal pic, just for clarity. 12.7 mm




Lawrence Slater

excellent photos thank you

yes mine are newer but I'll keep the photos for reference

mine are from 2009 I had to go down to Bath for them despite me passing their Steventon place on the way from Northampton and the LB salesman living near Stevington - soon after my'installation' the business moved to Stevington, uuuuhhhhmmm, strange, no I mustn't get going on that

first time I washed my car after they were fitted as I looked at the pool of water I wondered about a drain hole but they're now covered in Waxoyl, everything is especially me and my clothes when I work on it

even the fan belt got some and threw itself off at the top of the hill after a bit of spirited driving and gear changes - that's when I found the engine was too far forward after the 5 speed installation - oh, no I'm off again

I wonder how many of the 50 cars they've sold so far let alone how many have started to be built, I wonder if it's a seperate limited company

they wern't interested, for perfectly plausable reasons it seemed at the time, in my mate's idea to develope the unit to use Sierra bits and brakes complete and to do away with the king pins - an idea for you Lawrence
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
Sounds as if you may have the same problem as Onno?

So I'll say it again. I'd get on to FL, and complain that the new improved last forever version of their conversion, doesn't seem to last very long at all.

I'm happy with a sierra g/box, but frankly can't be bothered to try and convert to a completely different suspension setup. One for David B?

Anyway, bolt measurements on the original version, just for completeness.

Overall bolt length excluding head 113mm
Shaft length 80mm
Bolt thickness 12.5mm

Not that this is too critical, as the steel pin length is what determines how tight the plates are clamped against the olilite bushes. You just do the bolt up tight.






Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
through bitter, expensive and sadly repeated experiences I've learnt it's best not to dealt with bodge-artist, liars and conmen

I'd sooner and I have before, pay a reliable someone else to put matters right

it may seem difficult to understand unless you've been throught it but it's often best to write off your losses as early as you can and not to persue matters as you can then become very consumed by something that doesn't deserve your attention and time further

if you're basically an honest person you can't deal with a dishonest person because they have morals and so will treat you differently to how you treat them

perhaps it might be a different matter if I was single and only myself to involve but I'm not

now of course none of that above relates to this matter, here we have a product that is out of warranty/guarantee and I'd guess very difficult to estabilsh a reasonable life span plus there is no obligation to offer, even for sale, replacement service parts

you didn't get far with your enquiry and I know I wouldn't perhaps Onno feeels he wouldn't get far too
Nigel Atkins

I do understand nigel. Reward vs effort. Some things just aren't worth the effort. However, I have a feeling, that in this case, if FL are advertising this conversion as being an improvement, and maintenance free, and it does not last a reasonable time, then it's not fit for purpose.

This is from their website.
"The complete unit is made of laser profiled high grade steel, then welded, powder coated in mat black and assembled using PTFE based 'IGUS' bushes therefore removing the need for greasing or any additional maintenance."

---- "therefore removing the need for greasing or any additional maintenance." ---- Clearly this is not the case. Trading standards would be interested in that.

Fit and forget is the implication. You bought yours in 2009. So less than 3 years old and needing major repair? That's not fit for purpose.

If it were me, I'd persue it, but I have the old version, which as it turns out, is very easy to renovate and improve.

For those with the new version, who have problems with it, the very least that can be done is to let others know the problems, so that they can decide if it's worth buying the kit.
Lawrence Slater

Nigel,
Could you take a pic of your FL kit in situ? Same pic as mine below?
Lawrence Slater

I think I may not have been clear, the front suspension didn't need a major repair just nuts and bolts tweeking up - why they were or came loose is another matter as the nuts are nyloc, perhaps the bolt threads stretch, I don't know

this is the first time any (even though hopefully it will only be a very small) issue has arisen with the front suspension

I do my very best to let others know about issues but on an open forum you have to allow for media, marketing, promotional savvy people restaining what's put

if you notice I suggest people email me as I believe a personal email would be a lot more difficult to restrain

I'll gladly put up a photo tomorrow but I'm not sure how much detail there will be but I'll do my best
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,
Glad to hear yours is ok. A pic to show what was wrong would be useful. As would one that might show any difference, on the outside at least, between the early and late versions.

I emailed FL. Essentially the reply says that after 7 years of the new Igus version, there has been no request for replacement bushes or other parts. If that's the case, then being fair to FL, if anybody is having trouble with the new version, and nobody complains or tells FL, that's not FLs problem. I know some people are reluctant to complain. I'm not. If I buy something, I expect it to perform. When it doesn't I complain. My only beef with FL is that they don't keep the spares for the oilite version. But that's just business I suppose.

However, as I said earlier. Now that I've stripped my earlier version of the FL kit, I'm reasonably impressed. The wear is fairly minimal, and now I understand how to remove and replace the oilites, and even improve them, I think overall it's a good kit. I would still rather have been able to buy new original shocks, that would last, for a reasonable price, as opposed to having to change the whole setup to get decent shocks. Even when you could buy new ones, they didn't last that long, whereas, the AVOs are still as good as new, --- functionally.

I think on balance this is a good conversion. I think, that if I couldn't get new oilites, and make improvements for minimal costs, I would consider spending the extra to "upgrade" to the later FL version.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
I have no real problem with the front kits, that I know of, other stuff yes loads

I don't know if these photos are any god if not just let me know

first one -




Nigel Atkins

Lawrence,
I've tried posting the second photo twice but it doesn't appear I'll email them to you
Nigel Atkins

Interesting chaps - just refurbishing my uprights too.

The bolt which acts as the pivot (ie. fits in the bearing) is just 1/2" UNF by 4 1/2" long isn't it?

My early FL uprights don't have any grease nipples or grub screws - how early does that make them?

If there isn't a grub screw and the trunnion pin can rotate, what is the problem with that?
L McInally

Nigel,
As I emailed, the pic you posted of the later version, shows thrust washers at the ends of the arm, against the insides of the side plate, whereas that function on the earlier version I have, is performed by the oilite bearing.


L McInally,
"The bolt which acts as the pivot (ie. fits in the bearing) is just 1/2" UNF by 4 1/2" long isn't it? My early FL uprights don't have any grease nipples or grub screws - how early does that make them?"

Have you stripped yours down? Are you sure there isn't a hollow steel pin that the bolt passes through, which in turn passes through oilite bushes?

Any pictures? Is it badly worn? Without being able to add grease, I'm surprised it lasted long at all.

If the bolt on yours does indeed act as a pivot to the bearings, then yours must be an earlier version still. Unless what you are calling early, is in fact a later Igus version, that does not need grease.




Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, Car is not at home but I did strip them down. Yes the bolt passes through a steel sleeve which sits in a (bronze/copper looking) bush (I assume this is the Oilite bush).

Not much wear - tiny bit of play on one side but the other was fine and so just painted and re-assembled. After reading this I'll try and rotate the bearing to see if that helps the loose one.

I got hold of new bolts from a local engineering shop, but an inch and a half longer to mount a rose-jointed strut brace on. I was a bit worried that they needed to be of a particularly high grade steel but the chap said they were same spec as the originals I took in. They were 1/2" UNF by 6" long.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/StrutBrace.jpg

No grease nipples anywhere or grub screw - I picked them up from Tim Fenna in Bath many years ago. First batch I think?

I thought about adding grease nipples, but thought they were self-lubricating and so just threw them back in. Still got the opportunity to do so (as the car is still in bits). What do I do - remove the bushes and get them drilled, or drill through the bushes to get the grease right to the bolt?
L McInally

L,
That's what confused me. You say new bolts. But the bolt isn't the bearing, and should be tight and not turn. So why new bolts? Now I understand, you needed longer bolts for the brace.

But the bolt doesn't act as a bearing, and only needs grease to stop it potentially rusting to the inside of the hollow steel pin.

The hollow steel pin passes through the oilite bushes.
The bolt passes through the steel pin.
When the bolt it tightened -- very tight -- , it clamps the steel pin tight against the inside of the vertical side plates of the bracket. The arm, and hence the oilite bushes, as they are pressed into the arm, then rotate around the steel pin, but the pin doesn't(shouldn't) rotate, and neither should the bolt.

Lubrication.
If yours has lasted this long without additional lubrication, then that's testament to how good oilite bushes actually are. When made, they are impregnated with oil. If you turn a blow lamp on one, the oil runs out.

I've since done a bit of reading on them. In fact, lubing them with grease might reduce their effectiveness. Oilites are porous. If the pores are blocked, then oil can't get in or out. Grease can block the pores, as can filing or drilling them, with a tool that isn't sharp enough, as it "blurs", or "smears" the pores.

Anyway, on the original FL kit(the version I have), the oilite bushes aren't drilled. The arm is drilled. See my picture Posted 25 March 2012 at 11:18:33, and 15 March 2012 at 11:50:30

Only one grease nipple. The nipple sits in the middle of the arm, between the two oilite bushes. The grease is pumped in, and is forced between the steel pin and the oilite bush, until it appears at each end of the arm, on the insides of the vertical plates (assuming it's still assembled).

I'm thinking of adding 2 additional grease points, in the middle of the oilite bushes, in which case they would have to be drilled for the grease to reach the steel pin. Or I was thinking of scoring a groove on the insides of the oilites, and keeping the single grease point.

However, Anthony has suggested a groove(s) in the hollow steel pin, to allow the grease to better enter the space between the oilites and pin, and I think this may be better.

But it's all guesswork.

I'm also (probably), going to change the current oilites for longer ones. 1.25" instead of .75", for more bearing surface.
Lawrence Slater

having looked at your photo - whatever you do don't damage or replace those steering rack gaiters as the present proper replacement Triumph (TRC2218 and RTC2219) ones are very poor quality and the generic MG replacements (GSV1104 and GSV1105) are a pig to get on and then don’t fit well
Nigel Atkins

Noted Nigel. :)
Lawrence Slater

sorry Lawrence the info was for L McInally

your post wasn't there when I started typing that

the Triumph gaiters are on the later ('72 on) steering rack in L McInally photo

your (L) steering rack is the earlier Spridget one and the generic gaiters (GSV1104 and GSV1105) might fit your rack and work better on on

I would say for either use tie-wraps/cable-ties on the small ends at least if you don't still have the protective discs to stop the gaiter pushing against the clips and screws
Nigel Atkins

Ah ok nigel.

Actually you reminded me of something. I took the tie wrap off one of my gaiters the other day when re-setting the tracking. Must replace it. :)
Lawrence Slater

doesn't the oil leak out if you do that?
Nigel Atkins

Probably would if I left it long enough, but they are a tight fit anyway, and the tie wrap just seals the deal.
Lawrence Slater

yes new ones are a very tight fit, don't I know :)
Nigel Atkins

As a heads up I think the newer design with the Igus bushes uses a M12 bolt for the inner end rather than 1/2" UNF. I'm not absolutely sure but having seen one at the makers and Nigel's photos earlier in the thread I think it is.
David Billington

David

1/2" UNF bolts in longer lengths are pretty rare beasts - looked for ages on t'internet and best I could find were at least £5 each and stainless (not strong enough I gather) until I went round corner to local engineering shop and they had 6" length in stock for £1 each!
L McInally

This thread was discussed between 15/03/2012 and 29/03/2012

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