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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Fuel pump alternative?
| I have a conventional SU fuel pump (with points) on my midget but would like a solid state one. Has anyone got any advice, recommendations as to type, price, supplier etc. Thanks, Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| You can get a solid state SU, or you can have your existing pump coverted, or go for a facet low pressure pump, making sure that you also get the rubber isolating mounts as they are noisy little devils. Graham. |
| Graham P 1330 Frogeye |
| Facet solid state. Small, square-bodied one. Can be a little noisy, but works well. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Thanks guys. My current one was working but has become intermittent. When I take it off the and connect it direct to a battery it ticks fine. However as soon as I put the pipes back on it stops. It must be something to do with not being able to cope with the pressure. Might this be right? Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| This is the second solid state pump I've had on my car. Sold as a replacement for the SU cost about £30£40 The previous pump was a very loud clacking noie most of the time, this one just make occasional pulses like the SU it replaces. No extreme noise levels at last. Fits the standard pump bracket too with its insulating foam do-nut LeaceyMG stock them so I bet the other UK based "names" do too Leacey's sell stock to most of them  |
| bill sdgpm |
| Do you mean a pump like this? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FACET-PUROLATOR-SOLID-STATE-CUBE-PUMP-FOR-CARBURETTOR_W0QQitemZ370268405339QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5635b77e5b |
| Neil (K series) |
| Or this one? http://www.leacymg.co.uk/index.php?product_id=543807&option=Prod_detail&image_id=404344 |
| Neil (K series) |
| 4 - 6 psi is FAR to high an output pressure to run Webbers let alone SU's without a pressure regulator. Neil, you can get one similar to that but with a 2.5 psi output. try Merlin Motorsport: http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p10861/SOLID-STATE-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-1.5-2.5-PSI/product_info.html |
| Deborah Evans |
| I've got the one Deb linked and it always works and (when mounted in rubber) does not make to mutch noise (not more than the exhaust...) |
| Onno Könemann |
| Where have you mounted it? Does it have to be below the bottom of the tank? Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| Neil asked "Or this one? http://www.leacymg.co.uk/index.php?product_id=543807&option=Prod_detail&image_id=404344" that's the one I had before Noisy As Buggery Leacey sold me this other one and it's lurvely p.s. I had to change the pump 'cos I broke the exit spigot off it when the gearbox and engine weight lowered itself onto to the metal fuel pipe under the car and ripped the tube out of it :( |
| bill sdgpm |
| Sorry Bill but which is the lurvely one? |
| Neil (K series) |
| Hi Neil mate I have had 2 of the Facets that Debs pointed to. The first on my Midget when I had a weBer installed. Never missed a beat and was positioned under the axle well near the original mount. My other one is on my MGA again with a weBer and it is mounted on the heater shelf under the bonnet. Again never misses a beat. Reliability is second o none but they are noisey if not mounted on rubber. However when directly mounted the noise will be less that engine and exhaust so can only be heard when the ignition is first switched on. However best to rubber insulate to be sure. |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| mounted on the original bracket just drilled some extra holes |
| Onno Könemann |
| Thanks all. I'm not too much worried about noise as I have a high pressure pump whirring right next to it anyway and the 2" exhaust pipe drowns it all out!!!! |
| Neil (K series) |
| Hi Neil Heres a link for the facet Tech spec's. http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/web-facet.pdf I got a really good deal from Aldon. Tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| Hi Tim, Thanks for that. Good reference. Will sort something out tomorrow. |
| Neil (K series) |
| Neil I use the facet stc 505. Tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| Neil the one I have now, in my picture but if noise doesn't matter... the old pump would be there still if I'd had a handy assistant when taking out the engine and box (I was going to add the cotton reel mounts though, to quieten it a bit) |
| bill sdgpm |
| Neil - As someone suggested, you might want to consider having your original pump rebuilt and converted to solid state. Peter Cole (I believe he is in London) provides this service. His e-mail is: peter.cole@onetel.net Cheers - Dave |
| David DuBois |
| Tim, Is the pump you are using for supplyig fuel to your injectors? I have a swirlpot and so currently use the standard SU pump to supply it. Therefore the stc 505 will have a bit too much pressure do you think. Debra above has suggested I only need 2.5psi. Any thoughts? |
| Neil (K series) |
| neil I went by the gallons/hour and bhp ratings. |
| Tim Dalton |
| The Facet 'cube' pump (Part number 40105?) is standard fit to Rutan Vari-eze aircraft. Since Rutan is a smart cookie (Virgin Galactic, Voyager round-the-world etc) I bought one to power my aircraft. If it did somehow ever fail, it will still allow fuel to gravity feed if there is 16" of head (about 1psi) There are many, many different sub-types and you need to really get one with the nylon ball inside it which appears to be white if you shine a torch down the insides. They also sell rubber monting bobbins to keep the noise down. The good thing about the noise is that you'll know if the pump isn't working (no noise) and that if you start running out of fuel it starts to make a noise like a pneumatic hammer on amphetamines!(DRDRDRDRDRDRTTT) The Stromberg carb will still work at about 1psi but I'm not sure if there is a published minimum figure for the SU. I'd bet that 4psi is going to overpower your float chamber seal on occasions. |
| rob multi-sheds thomas |
| Neil, what's your setup? I'm expecting LP pump from tank to swirlpot, with an 'overflow' back into the tank; and an HP pump from swirlpot to injector rail, with a return run back to the swirlpot? In this case you can get away with low volume and pressure. However if the return from the injector rail goes straight back into the main tank you need a much higher volume pump to keep the swirlpot filled - still low pressure tho'. I think. |
| David Smith |
| Hi David, You are correct. Tank to filter to LP pump to SP to HP fuel pump to filter to IR to SP, then to tank filler neck to tank. This morning I phoned Aldon Automotive, picked their brains for free and then ordered a solid state pump from them. This will supply the SP. Not much pressure involved. Hopefully will arrive tomorrow and be fitted tomorrow night. I'm kicking myself for not fitting one earlier but instead relying on the crappy traditional SU pump which always always always presents problems at some stage or other. That's the good thing about the Frogeye as it has a mechanical fuel pump. Having got my K series conversion running ok it suddenly wouldn't start. Traced it to the SU pump and the rest is history so to speak. When taken off the car the SU pump worked but wouldn't work with the pipes connected. Must be bugggered. |
| Neil (K series) |
| OK I have purchased a Facet pump from a well respected supplier and upon their recommendation having explained that I needed it to replace my standard Midget SU pump which supplies fuel to a swirlpot. From here a high pressure pump takes fuel to the fuel rail. They told me which model I needed. I was supplied with Facet 40105. I have just fitted it. Car started great but then wouldn't swith off. Had to disconnect the ECU to stop the car. Research on the net shows this pump to have a pressure of 3-4.5 psi. I am betting that this is too powerful for my purpose and as a result is pushing fuel through the swirlpot and the high pressure fuel pump to the injectors. Might I be right? |
| Neil (K series) |
| only if the pump is also energising the ignition circuit away from the switch circuit do you want to show us how you have wired the pump and ignition set up? we may be able to see a way round it p'raps wire the fuel pump off an ignition controlled relay no ignition no power at pump, there really ought to be a safety cut off device of one sort or another in the pump circuit |
| bill sdgpm |
| Bill, the high pressure pump is fed via a relay and switched via the Emerald ECU. The Facet I have fitted has been wired as a direct replacement for the SU pump, ie is controlled by the ignition controlled side of the fuse box. I have put a 3amp fuse in the line to the facet as this was recommended. I should point out that my car has been running fine starting and switching off on the ignition as it should do. I only fitted a new pump because my old SU pump became intermittant. |
| Neil (K series) |
| well the new pump is working, and so now you have a full swirlpot all the time so plenty of fuel for the HP pump to feed on. But I fail to see how you are getting power to make the injectors function, and to make sparks, after turning the ignition off. |
| David Smith |
| Hi David. Faulty ignition switch? Faulty relay? Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| I cant see any other options Neil The spark should turn off when the switch does if it doesnt it cant time for a bit of nifty multimeter work first ..supply to Emerald with ign on then off then ...supply to relay switching coil (ign on-ign off) then ...feed to pump under each circumstance ? its a puzzle but it'll turn out to be very basic car was working ok now it aint, only the pump type changed not the wiring do you have a diagram (as it is now)? |
| bill sdgpm |
| Hi Bill, Yes I do but not in a format I can post on here. Will get the multimeter out tomorrow and do some investigating as you suggest. I bet there is a simple answer. I love these challenges. I'll be in Stoneleigh on Sunday. Could show you the diagram then if we meet up. Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| Hi neil Try switching the wipers on or pressing the brake pedal dose this stop the engine? Tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| ? |
| Neil (K series) |
| can you switch off the engine whilst pressing the brake pedal ie brake lights on or with the wipers running? tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| Hi Tim, No haven't tried that. Why do you say this? Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| its the only way i can stop my engine.. Tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| R u joking? |
| Neil (K series) |
| no |
| Tim Dalton |
| Well that's crazy. Have you tried to figure out why? |
| Neil (K series) |
| Sunday'll be fine Neil but try opening it in MS Paint then saving as a .jpg you can resize in Paint too, if it's too big or maybe its on paper... Tim do you have the relay connected properly? Live at in 30 switch through 85/86 output 87 I have seen feedback because a relay backfeeds and needed current flow externally to cut it off |
| bill sdgpm |
| Bill, Mine operates as above. |
| Neil (K series) |
| Oh many times... I had the problem pre fuel pump change so I had until now discounted the lp pump. Not to sure when it started because i always press the brake pedal when stopping the engine. I know the ecu still gets 12v when the ignition is switched to off. pressing the brake pedal or switching the wipers on drops the voltage. head lights don't make any difference |
| Tim Dalton |
| bill Pretty sure they are correct. tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| I'll sleep on it tonight and look for inspiration. |
| Neil (K series) |
| Tim there shouldnt be 12v with ign off at that rate you'd have a flat battery all the time :( where's it getting the power from? The headlights arent ignition controlled like brake lights or wipers, so it has to be a ignition switch based problem Having seen some recent ignition switch problems in a mate's switch have you got ALL the right wires on the proper numbered switch terminii? Puzzling huh... |
| bill sdgpm |
| Good news. Tried again, started the car and switched it off several times. No problem. Will change the ignition switch as a precaution. Thanks. Neil |
| Neil (K series) |
| Had a good go with the meter today and it seems to be the trigger wire from the ecu to the rev counter. Tim |
| Tim Dalton |
| Hi Tim, I'm glad my problem has also sorted yours out. Good news. |
| Neil (K series) |
| If I want to replace my mechanical pump with the Facet cube type (the one Debs has refered to), where should it be mounted? I believe that it needs a fuel filter - does this go between the pump and tank and what is best type? Of course I will need to sort out some additional wiring to power it - electrics not my strong point but I guess it can't be that difficult but still any advise welcome. Thanks Les |
| Les Robinson |
| Les, Just popped out and took a couple of photos of the facet that I have fitted. Awkward taking them as I had to just hold the camera under the car and guess where it was pointing. I have used an ordinary plastic/paper filter at the mo but plan to change it for a more permanent one. I mounted it on a couple of mini exhaust bobbins as it will vibrate through the bodywork even worse if you don't. I used the exising wiring for the SU pump albeit I had to extend the wires. I also placed a 3 amp fuse in the line. The location is on the boot floor. You should be able to work it out fom the photos. It seems to be working fine. Neil  |
| Neil (K series) |
Another pic
 |
| Neil (K series) |
| This is the factory location Les. O/S axle arch roof on "front" of the rear bulkhead but anywhere in the arch area should be fine the cotton reel bobbin is non-standard to give some sound insulation works too!  |
| bill sdgpm |
| Thanks Neil anb Bill. Pioctures really helpful. Mini Sport have the Facet cube pump kit - pump, filter, union and mounts for £38, seems a good price. As mentioned in another thread, my LCB is very close to my mechanical pump so feel happier changing it. Les |
| Les Robinson |
| Tim Dalton, Did you sort your switching off problem out?? |
| Neil (K series) |
| I noticed that the pumps have two colored wires coming out of the housing. the red one would go to the feed and the black would go to the ground.Theses pumps are lableled as neg ground only. I do not see why one could not just connect the black wire to the hot feed wire and the red wire to the ground point and have the unit work just fine if you were dealing with a pos groung car. Does this make sense,--hope so----Bob C 28 Feb 2010 |
| chamberlain Bob |
| Neil, Another option for mounting the Facet pump with a minimal of fuss and noise is to use the transmission mount from an MGB. David "got it from the shocking Peter" Lieb |
| David Lieb |
This thread was discussed between 15/02/2010 and 01/03/2010
MG Midget and Sprite Technical index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.