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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Gearbox layshaft

I just received the long awaited package with the gearbox parts, and did a simple scratch test on the layshaft to discover it is about as hard as a brass one! There's no point building the gearbox up with that, so it will be returned at their expense tomorrow.

Who supplies good quality (i.e. HARD) layshafts?
Dominic Clancy

Dominic,

Where did you do the scratch test as the shaft may be induction hardened so only hardened where required. I don't know if that is the case with the lay shaft but I have seen it on other shafts.
David Billington

MiniSpares do a hardened layshaft, so do MED. Probably Hardy engineering too, and Peter May. It would be good to know your errant supplier please.
David Smith

Errant supplier is Leacy, but I am sure they are not the only ones using the supplier.
Dominic Clancy

well yes the next question is where do they get them from - Bill SDGPM may be able to find out?
Also I've remembered that my box builder definitely got me one from Peter May last time I had it rebuilt.
David Smith

I talked to them on the phone today and have to say the response was in one respect good, but in another left me a little ambivalent.

First the good: problem not disputed and offered an immediate refund without the need to return the part for checking. I have spent quite a lot there recently.....

Then the ambivalence. They say they get them made in batches if 250 and sell 300 or so of these a year and have only had one or two complaints about the hardening - to which my reaction is either people are not testing them before fitting, or the problem is isolated to specific lay gears in the batch. If it's an isolated problem, the manufacturer doesn't have proper quality processes in place. They don't have any more in stock to be able to check !

I have ordered one from our local parts store, and asked him specifically to scratch test it before sending it out which he agreed to do.
Dominic Clancy

In retrospect, I should qualify my comments about customer service being related to spend. I have to give leacy 11/10 for customer service all the way, and I offer the following examples to justify this rating.

First order at all was an MGA heater escutcheon which arrived but was not the same as the photo on their site (and most parts are indeed provided with a photo). A simple email to them and it was refunded on the spot with an apology

A few weeks ago I ordered a part that was out of stock. They mailed me to say so and offered a refund over PayPal, but when I mailed back to substitute with a different (more expensive) part, it was added to the order without a surcharge.

So these guys are on the mark when it comes to treating customers right, it seems that they suffer from the same problems as all other suppliers when it comes to substandard parts. I get the impression that they act as a wholesaler to other suppliers too.

There are other suppliers, for example one in the USA whose name starts with a seaside town in Yorkhire that isn't Bridlington, where you have no chance of a refund even if they supply complete and utter cr@p.
Dominic Clancy

We had our own shafts made locally after discovering this problem a few years back, along with a complete lack of interest in doing anything about it. Hardness of these shafts varies from 50 to 58 rockwell at best, should be over 60.
Photo shows the result, which happened in very short order after fitting. Not worth contemplating at all.


Paul Walbran

Another supplier is Denis Welch who also do a new third motion shaft though its not cheap! The spigot which fits into the 1st motion shaft wears and its worth checking before reassembly!
Bob Beaumont

I did once hear about someone re-using a worn layshaft by turning it around and machining the locating lug onto the opposite end and also rotating through 180 degrees, as the wear occurs on one side of the shaft.
Dave O'Neill2

Well the replacement arrived - four times the cost of the one from Leacy, and packed in exactly the same type of plastic bag, and just as un-hard. He gets most of his stuff from Moss, so it looks like the same batch is probably spread far and wide. This one will go back for a full refund too. Paul, do you have any good ones available for sale?
Dominic Clancy

did you try any of the suppliers I mentioned earlier? I'd be surprised if at least one of them couldn't guarantee a decent product.
David Smith

Dominic - yes we do have them, but unfortuantely getting only a 3 or 4 done at a time (problems of being a small country) means highs unit costs - they work out at 275 NZ dollars, that's about 135 GBP at presnet. But at least they are hard.
And that's why I'm interested in the discussion about other sources!
Paul Walbran

I just called Peter May! and he says his heavy duty lay shafts are properly hardened- what that means about his standard one is anyone's guess, but for the extra few pounds I am not going to take the frisk. He also says they are not available abnywhere else.

I will report again when it arrives.
Dominic Clancy

I've built many Spridget gearboxes and found (like you Dominic) that cheap products are not much harder than warm chocolate.. With that in mind, I've always used Peter Mays products as the DO last, ever in extreme competition situations.

I still buy his products even though I'm now in Australia (sorry Paul W..)

Mark.
M T Boldry

Dom,
I have to guess the company that wouldnt return your purchase....was it scarborough?
Steven Devine

Stephen, Scarborough is a 'seaside town in Yorkshire that isn't Bridlington', yes !
David Smith

I only got it because of the return policy that I recognized! :-)
Steven Devine

I have been trying to hunt down a decent layshaft for a few days now without any success.
Minispare do not do a midget/Sprite specific layshaft and their Mini 3 synchro competition layshaft that could be modified is out of stock.
MED will only sell their comp layshaft with a gearset.
Swiftune again do not do a Midget/Sprite specific layshaft.
I rang Dennis Welch Motorsport this morning to get details of the £39 plus VAT layshaft. They did not know the material spec of the shaft or if it was hardened, only that it was made of good quality material which did not inspire confidence.
A call to Hardy's and they only fit "standard" layshafts.
I'm a bit wary about using a Peter May comp layshaft as a mate of mine had a wear problem with one he had but that may have been a fluke but I'm unwilling to take a chance at £34 plus VAT plus the hassle of whipping the gearbox out again.
Is the answer to have a batch of standard layshafts induction hardened or heat treated ??
I intend to ring around over the next few days to find if this is possible.
P A Webb

did you ask Steve at MED where he bought his comp shafts in from? If he only sells with a gearset he's not losing a sale by telling you. Possibly a forum group buy opportunity?
Also I checked the bible and Daniel mentions MiniMania in the States as a supplier, worth an enquiry I would have thought.
David Smith

I will not fit any Layshaft without testing it with a file first. If it scratches, it is not hard enough, full stop, and it gets returned. If the Peter May one fails the test, that too will be returned. It is simply too much work to remove an engine and dismantle a gearbox to replace a shaft after a few thousand kilometers.

If the shaft turns up in the same plastic bag as the other two I will know that the "comp" Layshaft is also a marketing scam, but at the moment I am in a fully open mind, and will report the results accurately. If all else fails, even Paul's price is a reasonable one as an alternative to the hours of work caused by a soft shaft.
Dominic Clancy

The alternative may be to get a soft shaft tuftrided if you have anyone locally who can do that.

XRN supply tuftrided rocker shafts so I see no reason why layshafts should not be similarly treated
Chris at Octarine Services

This may be my memory, but I seem to recall tuftriding does not produce quite the same hardness as case hardening, which is how the original shafts were produced.
It's worth investigating but get an assurance from whoever does it about the expected result, then get it hardness tested once done. The metalurgist at the heat treatment company here says Rockwell 60+ is needed for the loadings imposed by needle rollers. Case hardened shafts should come in about 62.
Paul Walbran

I wonder if you could make one out of Thomson shafting as that is available in case hardened carbon steel and other materials and has a hardness of around 60 - 64. What diameter is the layshaft.
David Billington

I spoke to Steve at MED this morning regarding the possibility of buying their competition layshafts.
Again Steve stated that they were only available with a complete gearset. When asked why their did not carry spare layshafts the reply was that they have redesigned their laygears to take double width bearings at each end with a larger OD diameter to allow for larger and stronger needle rollers to as Steve states to eliminate failure and wear to the layshaft as a result the layshaft will outlast the life of the box.
I explained to him the lack of a descent competition or standard layshaft on the market at present and that I (we) felt that if he was to produce quality layshafts then there would be a market for then.
After a bit of coaxing he said that they have their layshafts made in batches of 50 and if he could could sell 25 in one go with the money up front then he would have a batch made to their spec and that they would be about £45.00 plus VAT and carriage.
So their you have it, but can we get together an order for 25 amongst us and people we know that want a descent layshaft and put the money up front ??
P A Webb

All depends on

1. how long it will take him to make them
2. whether the one from Peter May is any good or not
3. how good the MED spec really is (better than the others?).

The price is peanuts when you take into account engine out, gearbox out, gearbox strip, rebuild, install, engine back in and running again, clean up and a couple of beers.

That lot has to be at least 10 hours work on a good day, and I don't want to be working like that to save 4.50 an hour!

Dominic Clancy

I'd be up for one please.
David Smith

yes me too
Bob Beaumont

The laygear from Peter May has arrived and has passed the scratch test.

It may be £34 instead of the £12 for the Leacy product, but that is money very well spent considering the work involved in doing the job a second time. It is clearly a different manufacturer and quality than the ones I received before from Leacy and the local Moss agent

Dominic Clancy

just proves better quality parts can be made available and (some) people will pay more for the better quality
Nigel Atkins

good to have confirmation that Peter's stuff is quality :-)
David Smith

This is a sh*t b*ggery b*llocks day. We started on the gearbox now that we have a layshaft, and the front cover with oil seal fell apart between my fingers - as I went to fit it, the fork ear sheared off under just finger pressure, no tools had been near it.

Just hoping that the so-far nameless supplier lives up to his good reputation and supplies a replacement one under guarantee


Dominic Clancy

Ouch!
Dave O'Neill2

This thread was discussed between 20/02/2014 and 22/03/2014

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