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MG Midget and Sprite Technical grey sludge in sump BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - grey sludge in sump
| Hey folks, Not sure I want to ask this as I am sure Prop will give me a million scaremongering suggestions about what I have done wrong! Anyway, had to drop sump to try to fix very leaky gasket. I was surprised how much dark grey sludge there was in the bottom of the sump. Engine has only run about 5 mins, I assume this is just the "bedding in" sludge combined with all the assembly lube sludge, or should I be worried?!? Could an engine building genius like Peter B tell me this is all OK please! :-D :-D Malcolm |
| M Le Chevalier |
| Grey sludge is usually from the bearing shells. :-( I wouldn't expect much on a newly rebuilt engine. Did the crank rotate properly at each bearing assembly step? |
| Guy Weller |
| Nope... not all right Classic case of mice using your open engine as a tolit...yeep, there crapping inside your engine Hahah Seriously... the sludge is just the oil and coolant mixing from the blown head gasket Id say your fine you found it fairly soon, so thats a big plus, clean it out as best you can... me.personally, id run K1 or as you guys call it parafin in place of the oil ....engine not started just off the key and the starter... maybe 5 minutes worth over a 15 minute period then drain completely with fresh oil and filter You dont want coolant in the oil as that can do some damage to the bearings and rings Then probably change the oil agian in 1000 miles But yeah... I think your fine, you caught it so early and these engines are so hearty and forgiving Post some photos Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Yes, could be. It depends a bit on your colour interpretation. Grey is usually the surface metal off a bearing shell. But in this case if its a creamy grey then it could be emulsified oil & coolant. |
| Guy Weller |
| Grey sludge is usually from the bearing shells. :-( Do tell guy .... im not prevy to this...something new to learn Id think that would be alot of bearings to make noticeable sludge in the sump Im not doulbt your suggestion guy, just wow...what would cause that much bearing wear so fast Is this a case of like oil, a small bit goes a long way Now im interested, this day just got fascinating Malc... im sorry if thats the case, Im also now saddened for you...maybe its just replacing the shells and your good to go. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Prop, either of us could be right - or wrong! Its a case of more diagnosis information needed I think. Coolant would be a better outcome than bearings - and probably makes more sense seeing as the HG had blown. I think maybe you are right. But there are, I believe, at least 50 shades of grey! |
| Guy Weller |
| I was thinking of mentioning the sludge color but thought it would turn into a red herring Im my experiance the oil is always been greenish / grayish / brownish... similar to what comes out of a malfunctioning septic system So for malc sake... im hoping im right and guy is vaguly wrong on this one...sorry to wish agianst you guy. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Ha ha. It was a sort of matt dark grey. No metallic or shiny specks. There was quite a lot! Meant to take a pic, but forgot. No harm in pulling centre main to spot check that, right? Never had any problem with turning the crank by hand. Malc. |
| M Le Chevalier |
| Well... I think the lawn dart is squarly back into guys court If the sludge color is clearly NOT greenish/brownish/grayish color then its probably not coolant related Id think the way metal wears in friction the color of dark gray would be in guys favor But im hoping now its my 1st dignoises... rat turds. :-D Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Malc Did the connecting rods get "trued" once they have been untorqed they loose there perfect roundness and will eatting bearing at a much faster rate... but that wouldnt happen till a good 50,000 miles from my understanding Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Maybe a silly question, but could the grey sludge be from BEFORE you replaced the shells? Did you clean out the sump thoroughly as part of the rebuild? |
| Guy Weller |
| Guy... I think the engine was built by a ((( pro ))), if im not mistaken But the term "pro" in this context of the engines resent history might be considard an exaggeration Provided I have the correct malc and neil new engine builds before the big show experiance Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| As I recall, Malcolm built the engine himself as a vacation from rust repair. Malcolm, Did you save any of the oil or sludge? Is it common in the UK to get an oil analysis like it is here in the US? If so, you can have a lab analyze it for metal content. It is commonly done here, especially on large expensive engines, to check for what parts might be getting ready to fail. The oil analysis might be easier than pulling caps. I think pulling caps will only be definitive if you pull and check all mains and rods. If it is a bearing problem, it might only be one of them. My money is on sludge from the coolant getting into the crankcase, but I don't actually know if that will sludge it up so quickly. Charley |
| C R Huff |
| Yeah, I built the engine. That's why I am worried!! Sump was clean when re assembled. I think two ways to look at it... 1. Strip everything for what may or may not be a serious problem. 2. I think my preferred option, chuck some new oil in, run it for 20 mins to do my can bed in, change the oil again and see if it has gotten better/worse. Worst that can happen either case is a full strip and rebuild. If it comes to that I am going to cry!!! |
| M Le Chevalier |
| What did you use when you built the engine in terms of lubricant for bearings, cam etc etc? Peter |
| Peter Burgess Tuning |
| assembly lube by some supposed american racing bloke called joe gibbs! Kind of a sticky red brown grease. |
| M Le Chevalier |
| When you scoop out some of the put it on a piece of kitchen roll. Does the oil come out of it and leave a fine grey paste with maybe bits in? (bearing shell bits) Or is it an emulsified mess that stays sticky? (water gloop) Mine was definitely the former so new shells was spot on. |
| Dave Squire |
| Good thinking/test Dave. I will take a closer look and also try to get a pic tonight. Reading a few threads on other forums I am thinking it may just be a combination of the oil/assembly lube/coolant + only a very short (but potentially hot due to coolant issues?) run to stir things up. Certainly not a lot of clues out there though. Another consoling factor is there did seem to be a lot of it for it to be ground up bearing shells! Malcolm |
| M Le Chevalier |
| Bit disappointed no one responded to my '50 shades of grey' pun. Another thing worth trying is if you have access to a microscope you would see if it is metal particles or emulsion. Maybe even with just X10 magnifying glass. Anyway, l thought you were some sort of metallurgist, or am l thinking of someone else on here? |
| Guy Weller |
| I did smile, Guy. |
| Nick and Cherry Scoop |
| Likewise. I couldn't think of anything to add! |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| I smiled also but was to involved in the moment Sorry for the ((( pro ))) comment... I was thinking of the many other malcs here on the board Just to many of you french guys to keep track of, its like theres 50 of you all wearing some shade of gray....hahaha I just cant imagine its bearings you have only just ran this engine less then a few minutes if I recall, you havent even finished running the cam in if I recall correctly...if it where id think that much in that short of time, it would have to sound like a cat getting skinned alive with a rusty old dull pocket knief Perhaps the joe gibbs break in additive combined your oil wasnt a good marriage match I do recall my engine had alot of assembly lube particals that looked like flakes of lite brown rat turds and had kind of mussy texture... that kind of freaked me out till someone pointed out what it was Ive got to belive its just a combo of oil, coolent, joe gibbs break in additive, and may a touch of (over exhuberance) of assembly lube, all mixed into form guy's 50 shades of gray concoction I like your new plan, change out the oil and get it clean as can be then add new oil and filter run it for 1/2 hour and see what comes out, if its clean, pour it back in and reuse it, if its the same result, then we will all chil in and buy you a snot rag to aid in your crying Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Not to introduce to much thread drift But what has become of the other malc and his sidekick neil that had the ((Pro)) build both of there engines and nither car made it to the big show, because of it...have they gotten there new engine issues resolved? Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
Sorry to hear you're having problems. Can't help feeling a bit smug, the 1500 we built ran faultlessly to the Le Mans Classic and has topped 1200 miles now. Will be pulling the head down, changing the oil and filter doing the tappets on sunday. No oil leaks, used no oil and coping in this heat as well.Happy days! |
| SR Smith 1 |
| Charley Where do you bring your oil for analysis? I've never heard of that but I can see where it could be useful. Who the hell is Joe Gibbs? Malc...I hope its just contaminated oil and nothing more. When you get into big restorations its sucks when little details set you way way back. Hoping for the best out come for you! :-) Where's Nigel? |
| Steven Devine |
| Who the hell is Joe Gibbs? He used to be a high end, well respected nicely paid, sought after professional NFL football player head couch then he fell from grace with a big loss and got fired. Last I heard he found a jesus image at the bottom of a bottle while being enlightened by meth at the same time now he is forced to make a living managing a nascrap team...poor guy, he couldnt even cut it as a local area.McDonalds fry cook supervisor Some of mitt romneys best friends manage or own a nascrap team Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Joe Gibbs is some "NasCrap" (as Prop would say!) car builder. Anywho, have some pictures. Really none the wiser as to what is going on, but going to charge on and change the oil and resolve not to worry about it unless it happens again! The rags I used to wipe out the sump, that were covered in loads of sludgey stuff are now dry, not wet or oily, and just stained with the colour that the sludge was. The sludge has disappeared! Also, there are a few specs of what looks very much like the assembly lube in there too (Props rat turds!) (Note: things may have gotten cross contaminated in the bin, but I haven't done any other assembly lubing of late!) Malcolm  |
| M Le Chevalier |
Oil looks a bit dirty but still oily!
 |
| M Le Chevalier |
| Oil 2. Wish I had gotten a picture just after I took the sump off but memory was full so couldn't be bothered to clear space on the camera! Malcolm  |
| M Le Chevalier |
| Prop. The other Malc with his sidekick Neil was Rob, aka MG moneypit. They made the big show, but not in their Frogeyes. Rob took his midget and Neil his MGBGT. Frogeye engine investigations are ongoing as we write. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Steven, I haven't had oil analysed. I just know it is common practice. Typically you get little jars supplied by the company doing the service, you put your oil in it, and mail the sample to them. If an auto parts store doesn't have a handle on it, check with a truck (big trucks) parts/service place, a heavy equipment parts/service place, or a marine parts/service place. They may stock the sample kits, or have the contact info for how to get hooked up. Charley |
| C R Huff |
| Charley I have to say thats a new one on me as well, what a great idea, I just found out a few months ago you can have your gasoline tested for all kinds of things thur the state department of transportation...totally free, takes about 5 working days Then agian... ignorance is supposed to be bliss or is it blister-ful hahaha Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Malcolm, it's very demoralising when a brand new engine has problems. Let's hope it's just assembly lube precipitating out of the oil. I've never used it myself and have always relied on loads of engine oil for assembly. I'm interested to know what it turns out to be because I'm hoping to start up my fresh engine soon having at last sorted all the wiring. As you've only run the engine for a few minutes it would have been very, very tight to have produced bearing debris in such a short time. If the engine turned smoothly during and after assembly I doubt very much you will have 'run' the bearings. Was the block super-clean inside before assembly? |
| Nick Nakorn |
| Very few car owners in the UK get a UOA done and it would cost around £50 or $80 in the UK. I send mine like other UK people online to Blackstone Labs in the US. With postage costs around £26 $40. Blackstone's reckon it is not worth getting a UOA done until after around three oil changes as there is just to much bedding in debris in the sample to get an idea of what is going on. eddie |
| Eddie Cairns |
| Hi Nick, Yeah the last three weeks have kind of sucked. Problem after problem with trying to run the engine. Have a free weekend, so all things crossed all issues are fixed now. Block was de greased during rebuild. It was spotless inside. I am slightly encouraged that the sludge has just evaporated away somewhere! Makes me think if I had not had to drop the sump and ran it longer I never would have noticed it. Ignorance is bliss :-) Malc. |
| M Le Chevalier |
| I had intended to start my engine this weekend but the mechanical fuel pump (it worked before!)decided it had not liked being cleaned and stopped working. I've now bought a new cube electric pump and a second-hand Filter King fuel regulator off E-bay so it'll be a few days before they arrive. Then there's mounting brackets to make for them. I did however fill the gearbox, engine and rear axle with oil and fill the cooling system. It's always slightly worrying at this stage...! |
| Nick Nakorn |
| Hang in there nick, it just takes perseverance and a gut hungry will to see it thur. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Just a last comment on this to put it to bed. The engine has been run a couple more times about twenty mins eqch time and the oil on the dipstick looks perfect golden colour. Can't comment on what is in the sump but all seems well so assuming just rebuild greasey sludge and no I'll effects to the engine. Malcolm |
| M Le Chevalier |
This thread was discussed between 17/07/2014 and 27/07/2014
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