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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Happy new home, and some rather alarming tyre wear

Hello everyone.

As usual, sorry, long time no see. I have been busy moving house again. Moved away from my parents and now down in Gloucestershire. Still bumming about being unemployed though!

The great news is that I now have a garage attached to the house, it even has electricity! Woooooow!

The bad news (or good that I spotted it?) is I have goosed my front tyres in just 1000 miles. Getting the alignment checked was on the to do list, but with a double house move in the past six months I never quite got round to getting to a garage.

Is this just poor alignment, or a symptom of something much worse? It is the same on both inside front shoulders.

I will swap the tyres over side to side to at least get me to a tyre shop a bit more safely.

Cheers,
Malcolm


Malcolm Le Chevalier

Hello Malcolm,

Glad to hear you got a house with a garage now. Sorry about the employment scene.

To me it looks like your tires are toed out. I don't think swapping left to right will make any difference, or did you mean you are going to remove them from the wheel and flip them over?

You could set the toe yourself with a tape measure. It might not be perfect, but should be better, and may be plenty good enough if you are careful.

I know how you feel. Years ago I made the mistake of setting the toe by eye on my Healey before a trip because it looked so far off. Turns out it was an optical illusion, and I ground them down to the cord in about 200 miles.

Charley


C R Huff

If the wear is roughly the same on both sides, and on the inside of the tread, then almost certainly just too much toe out. They should be between parallel and 3/16" toe in. (you will also find that it steers and turns in much better when its correct).

You can get them fairly accurate at home with just a couple of 3 foot lengths of wood. 10mm dowel is ideal but pretty well anything will do. Tie them together side by side with loose elastic bands or cable ties. They need to be able to slide longitudinally, but not flap about.

Reach under the car and adjust the sticks so that one end of each is against the inside of each front wheel rim as close up under the chassis as you can get, behind the line of the wheel axles. Grip the sticks so you don't loose that length "measurement" and draw a pencil line crossing the two. Now slide the sticks slightly to shorten them so that line has 1/4" gap. Fix them by wrapping a few turns of tape (masking / sellotape etc). Reposition the sticks again, this time between the rims at the front about level with the axles, or as near to that as the chassis will allow. This is the toe in width you need, by adjusting the track rods. In your case the rims will be further apart than your stick measurement.

This sounds primitive and complicated! But it is very easy and surprisingly accurate.

Alternatively, as you will be buying new tyres very soon and no doubt getting the tracking done then, For now I would think about One full turn of the track rod each side will get you somewhere near correct. Crack the locknuts on each side just enough to loosen the track rods. then turn them with mole grips or using the small spanner flats on them if you can find them. I suggest 1 full turn each side. Then re-tighten the lock nuts. It may not be exact, but it will be nearer than they are at the moment!
GuyW

Yeah... the toe should be set to 1/8 inch... which isnt much

here in hillbilly land those tires are just a good starting piont for drag racing slicks... haha

in a pinch you can have them flipped on the rim and mounted on the rear end of the car and be food for a few more 1000s of miles and keep a spare just in case once your employeed agian have them replaced but i drive my daily on far worse

look for a hole in the wall shop to flip them alot of tire shoos will rape your sweet ass to flip them because they want to punish you for not buying new... so becareful of that scam before hand

there is a tool that ive heard nothing but great things about thats only avialable in the uk that id certianly try before i break out the string levels and tape measures

its called tbe gunston tire alinement... i wish they had them here ... but on youtube and uk ebay for fairly cheap

glad you made it okay

prop
prop

Here is there website

http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?item=1812
prop

Crossing thread paths with guy

well 1/8th .... 3/16th... ahh well, whats a few nics on a tape measure between friends...haha

just to follow kn guys comment. Measure from rhe metal rim not the rubber of the tire

and im not sure of the veracity of this but i think the floor needs to be as level as can be and tire pressures should be adjusted to proper spec... 24f/26r psi ???

Proo
prop

Charley... duh! Of course swapping them side to side won't work. Blonde moment! ha ha!

Now in a bit of a bind because I am skint and don't really want to fork out for new tyres... might try to adjust things myself using guys method and maybe swap them front to back.

Tho I can't decide if I prefer bald tyres on the front or back! :-)

Malcolm.
Malcolm Le Chevalier

If you get pulled over with those tyres the fine will be much more than the cost of a pair of new tyres and tracking. Bald tyres are dangerous. At £70 a pair fitted you have to ask if your life is worth so little?
dominic clancy

Definatly dont reuse on the front... put them on the rear

on the rear they just provide accelerarion traction

but on the front thats where all the steering and 85% of the braking occures

In the usa... you would be fine using them until maybe inspection time

if the tire blows out on the rear its not nearly as dangerous or hard to control as if the tire pops on the front

prop
prop

Malcolm, the problem as you have found is that unless you get the toe in at least approximately right, if you swap back tyres to front you will wreck those too and then have twice the cost to find!

To be honest, I have never had the tracking on my Sprite checked by a garage. That's in over 80,000 miles. I just set them with my sticks method. And the wear is very even across the tread and it handles well so I think they are close enough!

Dominic is of course absolutely right about getting some new ones asap.
GuyW

Well im at odds with guy it appaers

if your going to get new tires soon (asap) id spend the extra cash and have the tire shop do the alinment and be done with it and take all the issues out of play... like guy says... if you dont get the diy alinment correct your going to buy 2 more tires

if your going to wait a year or 2 before buying 2 new tires... then id flip the tires on the rim use those on the front till you did a diy alingment then after thats solved and wont grind off the tires then rotate those worn tires to the back and the good tires to the front for better braking steering and suspension handling

that would be my approach

prop
prop

If you do buy 2 new tires asap and get a professional alinment then id put the new tires on the front

if you do a DIY front alinment and buy 2 new tires then id put the new tires on the rear for a few thosand miles ...being if your not fully dialed in your chewing old tires not the new ones ... once your confident that your diy alinment is with in spec after a few thousand miles then rotate the new tires to the front

i hope that makes scence


prop
prop

I do my own tracking too. They never get it right at your typical tyre place.
I made my own gauge from an old prop - no not our prop - a clothes line prop!
The type you buy from Wilko etc that are telescopic. I just welded uprights on each end with threaded bar and nuts in the end and metal plate bases to allow it to stand up. It's amazingly accurate and fairly easy to use.

If you were nearer Malcolm I'd tell you to pop round and I'd do it for you. Unfortunately you've just got to get done no matter what, even though I say they never get it right at tyre places, they should be able to get it a lot better than it is now!
john payne

Prop,
I don't think we were at odds at all. I was just saying not to switch good rear tyres to the front without at first correcting the wheel alignment.
GuyW

Oof that needs tracking...

Don't drive it like that. Use the money you've saved from not driving it to replace the tyres.

I've also got a stick with right angles on it. Lots of negative camber, very wide tyres and a lot of thrashing and tyre wear is normal :)
Rob Armstrong

Yes, I wasn't intending on continuing driving it in such a state, just wondering how I can make it vaguely safe and acceptable to get out on the road again to get it fixed. I have at least five miles on fast roads to get to a tyre place.

Tried your stick method Guy. About half inch toe out. Woops!!

The big rush at the end of last year to get this thing "road worthy" has really been biting me in the ass recently.

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Dodgy tyres are 3 points per tyre (tire for the colonials :) ) so you'd be well advised to get them done asap.

Find some part worn if you can't afford new and tracking is around £20 to £40.
J White

If you swap front to back and ONLY drive that five miles or so to a tyre place

On a dry day

You ought to be OK, Malcolm

Most coppers will be stopping you to look at the car not to do the tyres unless you make them notice you

But it would be better if you could get a lift there with both wheels off the car legally

I know it isn't legal, but I bet most people have been caught out that way once or twice

Once you got the new tyres on it driving back to the 'shop' will not wreck the new tyres/tires ;) so you can have it tracked
Bill sdgpM

If it is like most tire shops here, the alignment is a flat rate price that is for a four-wheel alignment, and includes camber and castor and thrust angle. I don't think there is any convenient way to adjust anything but the toe in a Spridget, so you end up paying for a lot of service that you don't get.

I suppose knowing the other figures is worth something so that you can consider cutting, slotting, and shimming, but all that most shops are going to do is the toe.

Therefore, it makes more sense to do it yourself.

Everyone has to assess their own risk, but I would not consider the tires to be an immediate risk, though from what others have said, it seems the law is more concerned with auto safety there than they are where I live. Years ago when my state had annual safety inspections, I passed with a flat tire. Well, okay, it was a 6-wheel vehicle, but still...


Charley
C R Huff

Charly wrote...

Years ago when my state had annual safety inspections, I passed with a flat tire.

was the tire flat only on the bottom but still round every place else

{○} ¿ {~}

Prop
prop

Certainly they are badly worn and at the end of their life, but it is difficult from the photo to say that that tyre is actually illegal - yet. Assuming you don't have the luxury of two cars I think you would be ok to do the toe in adjustment as I described and then go get some new tyres.

Check out the tyre prices on the likes of mytyres.co.uk or blackcircles.co.uk. But do shop around as prices reflect the demand and our 13" sizes are increasingly rare and can cost as much as some of the much larger but more popular sizes for modern cars. Online prices are usually far better than at the national kwik-fleece companies and you can get them fitted at a local indie so there should be somewhere near you.
GuyW

I woundnt sweat it... theres alot of miles left on that tire

you get the tow sorted id say a good 1000 at minume... the cords are not even showing... so you have a ways


granted they will perform like a pig on roller skates during ice and snow... but dry roads i doublt evil kenievel will even ask for your autograph
prop

I did my own tracking with strings (the body is straight enough on a midget) and checked with Guys sticks. Tested with a run around my 7 mile circuit and 'felt' the tread for rough edges.
Lasted 3 years so far. A few thousand miles and new fronts fitted in the mean time.
Enjoyed the learning experience and the saving of shekels.
Had a 7 seater many, many, years ago that was mis aligned by fitter and the fronts lasted about 80 miles and squealed like hell. Car was too dangerous to go any further than to return to the garage.
rcnxciccq

The other thing you can do to keep the price down is buy online and fit them yourself. I have also done my own tracking with various stick methods and now have the Gunsons device which works well too.

Trev
Trevor Mason

I have fitted my own, but its a struggle and you are then still faced with balancing and a tyre valve. The independent that I use charges £10 per wheel, including valve and balance, (or £30 for a set of 4) either of which I think is good value.
GuyW

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Another stupid and costly mistake that could have been avoided. Do you ever go through phases where however hard you try you just end up making an expensive ar*e of everything?! ha ha.

The tyres I have I bought online at about £35 each fitted. I will do the same as it's the only way I can really ensure I get matching (I don't know of many places that readily stock Yokos)

Cheers,
Malc.
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Guy..
", but it is difficult from the photo to say that that tyre is actually illegal "

The law states..
"UK Tyre Law : Tyre tread and the Law.
The law requires car tyres to have a minimum tread depth of 1.6mm in a continuous band around the central three quarters of the tyre"

The 'central three quarters' is the important bit. In Malcolm's case, 3/4 would finish halfway across the bald bit so they are definitely not legal.
graeme jackson

Malcolm,
I suggest you either buy online and then take the wheels and new tyres to a fitter to get them fitted and balanced, or you might find someone (etyres, Event Tyres, Tyres on the Drive, etc) who can supply and fit the Yokos at home for you.
Jonathan
Jonathan Severn

Malc wrote...

""Another stupid and costly mistake that could have been avoided. Do you ever go through phases where however hard you try you just end up making an expensive ar*e of everything?! ha ha""


Malc...

you do know how to spell my name .. prop correct ???

Dont tell anyone... but im sort of a big deal, an important person... im the person that invented the concept you discribed... the fame and glory is all mine

yepp... its just beginng wait til year 8 thats when the sh#t really begins

hang in there buddy... it will only get worse

prop
prop

Graeme,
I am aware of the 75% rule, but as all three of the central grooves look to me to be over 1.6mm in depth and the excessive wear is confined to the inner shoulder, and extended only onto the inner part of contact band I think it is marginal. At least it is not fully clear in the photo and hard to be dogmatic either way. I am not encouraging use of illegal tyres. But its worth a closer check and actual measurement to see if they would be ok for a short trip to a tyre depot. I think they probably would be, - just!
GuyW

Well, if they are that touchy about tires in the UK, I would think you might call the tire shop and make an appointment. Then if you got stopped, you could prove that you were on the way to a tire shop. I don't know if that would fly there, but I can't imagine getting written up for it in my world.

Prop, notice I said that when I passed inspection with the flat tire, it was on a six-wheel vehicle, i.e. dual wheels. So, the flat was round all the way around. I did take care to park so that they couldn't see the big round patch where you could count all the plies down to the air.

Charley
C R Huff

Haha

i was just joking about it only being flat on the bottom...

but yeah... you and i are on the same page... if cops are looking that close you got bigger problems ...your obviously on someones crap list

like i say (its only illegal if you get caught)

Even if they do catch you for a tire safety issue... honest offier 5hank you for pointing that out... i had no idea may please have just a warning i promise ill get a new tire tomarrow morning

but unless your parked still and the cop is checking all the tires in a parking lot for wear... how are 5hey going to know unless your on his crap list

i got to think your cops have got to be far busier with a cup of coffee to care about the state of your tires. That would require getting on all 4s to even detect a potintial tire wear issue

prop
prop

Prop, the real issue isn't a chance stop by police - they would need a reason to stop you anyway. The far greater risk (in terms of bad consequence) would be if one had the misfortune to be involved in a serious accident at which point your insurance company could wriggle out of payment of possibly mega-sums if it was shown you had illegal tyres. Even if it wasn't proven to be your fault. Now Malcolm will worry!
GuyW

It might be worth asking your local tyre places - even main dealers - if they price match.

My local Ford dealer will price match on tyres. When I asked them for a quote, they looked up Black Circles and matched their price.
Dave O'Neill 2

Right, getting some new tyres fitted at home and will set the tracking using Guys stick method.

They are not going to be matching, getting Firestones instead of Yokos as thats what they had in cheap and not chinese category.

Having matching tyres on a car is a curse anyway, of the three instances I have had a car with a matching set on:

1. Hit a rock on the motorway after 500 miles on them and totally ruined one of them.
2. Got a nail in one after 200 miles, did manage to get that one repaired though.
3. Worn them bald in under 1000 miles!

:-D
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Next thought then Malcolm.
What state are your rear tyres in? If they are OK with a decent amount of tread I would take Prop's advice (!!!) Set the tracking as accurately as you can. Then fit the new ones to the rear and put the rears on the front. The reason I say this is that IF the tracking is still wrong or there is some other fault, then it isn't your brand new tyres that suffer. You will soon see if tracking has sorted it and can always swap them around again later if you want.

On the stick method for tracking: I have successfully used it for years, but there is a limitation which I make an allowance for when I do it. Strictly speaking one should be measuring with the wheels on the ground and at the exact 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions on the rims. But this isn't possible with straight sticks as the chassis and sump get in the way, particularly behind the wheels. The solution would be to use sticks as described, but to fabricate cranked ends on each to reach up to that required point on the rims. John Payne described a similar idea a couple of days ago which sounded good to me.
GuyW

Rears are fine, they have only been on for ~1000 miles too, so not much point swapping I don't think. New or as good as new.

Just been mucking about with my sticks. Wound things in until they were parallel, then added an extra turn. It maybe is a bit too much toe-in now, will re-check after lunch and maybe take it out half a turn.

It took five turns to get them parallel, it was miles off!

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

From the pitch on the TRE threads, I would think 1 turn in each side from parallel would be about right.

It will be interesting to hear what you think of the handling. It should be far less twitchy on the steering - you won't have to be continually correcting it and it should feel almost like it is steering itself along straight as it should
GuyW

I'm sorry but I just can't get my head around the sticks, would it be possible to take a picture please

thanks
timmyk

timmyk,

I don't have a picture, but imagine that instead of two sticks, you had a telescoping stick like a curtain rod that could change lengths. That ability to change lengths is what the two sticks side by side are being used to accomplish.

An alternate way to measure is to jack up each front tire and spin it while holding a nail or scribe against the tread to make a mark all around the circumference. It might help to have the nail or scribe mounted in a piece of wood or something to hold it steady. Then you can use a tape measure measure between the lines. the measurement is made in front of the axle and behind it. Remember to roll the car a bit after jacking it up to settle things.

Charley
C R Huff

And when rolling the car, roll it forward to simulate a normal driving situation. Rolling it backwards could skew things a bit.
Martin Washington

Right you are, Martin.

Charley
C R Huff

Tim,
I cannot photo as the device is very ephemeral - I only make one up out of scrap timber when I need it.
But it is a device that used to be commonly used by joiners and cabinet makers as it is considered more accurate than a tape measure. Here is a photo of a slightly more elaborate version used for cabinet making quality work. Generally used for internal dimensions such as drawer sizes or sash windows


GuyW

Here is a 2 min youtube video

this is just one of several hundred variations on how to measure and set toe

btw... did we ever determin what the measurement sould be set at i was thinking 1/8 inch and guy was at 3/16 inch

Prop

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wBrzXeJnYiQ
prop

Hopefully my headers are no longer screwed up and show OK this time.

The sticks work just fine. I used a G clamp and elastic bands to set mine easily. Really needs thin laths like door stop to use easily.

Make sure you go for a short spin (less than 10 miles) and run your hand over the treads to see if they are roughing up immediately after you track them Malcolm. Can't remember the indicators from 'tread feel' without going back through the threads but I think Guy knows about it.

Dangerous tyres can be made in a few miles.

Having said that I really enjoyed tracking mine. The sense of achievement and the understanding after working the tools was well worth it. I still smile thinking about it.

Good luck, Dave

Dave Squire

Got it thanks Prop.

One question though doesn't this method allow them to be uneven - you could have the nearside wheel exactly parallel to the car and the offside twisted in or vice versa - but still get the same measurement?
timmyk

I find that the best way is to set the steering wheel straight and then adjust each TRE to get the desired toe in making sure that you measure as high up as you can, preferably in line with the center of the spindle. That's where shops and the manufacturers set it.

My Frog is supposed to be 1/8" toe in. I don't know if later cars changed but that's probably a good number to shoot for.

Many years ago I bought a Midget and every time that I hit a bump or pot hole with the right tire the car would go left and and right with the left tire hitting. I had way too much toe out. Adjusted it and it tracked like a go kart.

This is really one of the easiest and most satifying DIY jobs on these cars.
Martin Washington

Timmik

yepppp... thats what happened to me years ago when i tried a varioustion of this

i took it to a wheel shop and took them 15 min and cost me $29.95 ... ive never regretted it

its what your comfortable with
prop

Tim, both wheels should be straight before you start which is why you do this on level ground and roll the car back, then forwards to straighten them up. But even if you do get one straight and the other adjusted inwards, they will centralise as soon as you drive the car anyway.

I think the quoted figure is 1/8" but l do mine at 3/16" as this seems to work best for me. Suspension is lowered and have neg camber so this will make a difference, especially as l am measuring below the ideal mid level line.

I don't like the method in that video that Prop linked to. Measuring like that with a steel tape that bends and flaps around isn't accurate and the measurements should be taken between the rims, not on the tyres. But l guess it illustrates the principle.
GuyW

The "two sticks" real name is a Gunter batten ( ocd).
d brenchley

I wonder who Gunter was. I worked in a joiners shop in the early '70s reconstructing Georgian windows for the National Trust and they just called them a sash gauge. I remember as l got teased, being told to get the "Sash Sticks" and not knowing what l was supposed to be looking for! Joinery equivalent of the engineers' "go to the stores and get a Long Stand"
GuyW

Malcolm, I would be interested to know what you think of the Firestones. I need to get a couple of new ones and since my old favorite Uniroyals have been discontinued I have been looking at alternatives, one of which is the Firestones, but cant make my mind up at the moment.

Trev
Trevor Mason

Joinery equivalent of the engineers' "go to the stores and get a Long Stand"

or a left handed screwdriver!
Jeremy Tickle

Went out for a short 2 minute run round the estate today. Steering is loads better. Should get a proper run tomorrow when I get the new boots.

Trev, I would be happy to give you a review but I don't think I am particularly qualified. The review might extend as far as they are black and round!

tyres on the drive have Uniroyals in 145/80 and 155/70 size if that helps?

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Guy wrote

Tim, both wheels should be straight before you start which is why you do this on level ground and roll the car back, then forwards to straighten them up. But even if you do get one straight and the other adjusted inwards, they will centralise as soon as you drive the car anyway.


I don't like the method in that video that Prop linked to. Measuring like that with a steel tape that bends and flaps around isn't accurate and the measurements should be taken between the rims, not on the tyres. But l guess it illustrates the principle.


i agree totally... i was high lighting the basic concept ...i liked the video because its so basic and its only 2 min long... i think its a good vaiation for checking the toe should you bang into a curb and just checking tonsee if there is any toe damage... but id use your stick method or the string prodedure to actually adjust the toe

X2 ... measure from the rim not the rubber ... X2


3/16. Now i get were your comming from... thanks for the clairification... i was a little lost on that one and just couldnt grip the idea of saying ... are you sure ? ... haha

prop

New boots on and been for a wee drive to town and back to get some petrol. It is totally transformed! So much better feel and no longer get thrown into the bushes/on coming traffic when you hit a bump or pothole. Superb!

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

edit: Thanks Guy, I have lost track of how many beers I owe you!
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Good to hear!
Don't get paranoid, - ;-0 !- but keep checking your front tyres for wear characteristics for a while. Try running your hand lightly back and forth around the tyre surface to feel for edges forming on the tread blocks. i.e you feel them one way, but not the other. Slight blockiness is OK but they shouldn't be too pronounced as this could indicate incipient uneven wear.

And don't new tyres look great on a car! Instant upgrade to make you feel good!!
GuyW

Congratz malc

well done
prop

Malc...how many miles did it take to get your tires worn like that? Glad you got it fixed! :-)
S

About a 1000 miles Steve!
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Wow...ya I guess that would do it.
S

Great tips on tracking - will try out this weekend.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

This thread was discussed between 10/04/2016 and 27/04/2016

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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