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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Hardie fuel pump question

I have a NOS Hardie 12v electronic fuel pump. Not sure why as I have always been perfectly happy with the original SU points variety. Anyway it just sits on the shelf in the garage so I thought I would check it out. Connecting up a 12v supply, observing the correct polarity, nothing seems to happen.

It may be faulty or perhaps they don't normally make any noise? And maybe it 'knows' that it isn't connected to any pipework so is just staying asleep? I don't really know what to expect of it!
GuyW

Having recently fitted one (blue top) clone of the SU it was connected as noted and if just works - and makes a noise just as the SU.
There are different models and some have varying capacities and pressures. 13312 is the AUF214 equivalent. Mine was without tape so I wound some around the cap joint- Hardi note a splash proof model but everyone supplies the basic one I have.

Wonder if it has been used and the diaphragm has hardened ? - that was my issue with a couple of SU ones. Still waiting for some diaphragm material to see if I can repair the pumps without paying about £40 for an SU repair part !

R.
richard b

Maybe it was on your shelf because it doesn't work Guy.

I've never kissed a Hardy, can they be taken apart for inspection and repair?
anamnesis

I can take anything apart ?

Fixing / repair ?

For SU watch this space !

R.
richard b

It does look very unused. Number on it is 12V2001 (year maybe?) And on the base casting, DGBM. It had blue tape around the cap before I removed it, and undisturbed yellow tell-tale dabs of paint on the cap and one of the casing screws.

I got it in a job lot of stuff including a non working SU pump, which was what I was after. Naturally I fixed the SU and put the apparently brand new unused Hardie on the shelf to fester.


GuyW

Looks like an su clone. Probably works the same way. Being electronic, the likely fault, and fix, is a (new) circuit board. Take it apart and look see, if anything's obviously amiss, like a broken wire or burn marks.
anamnesis

That is not the AUF214- the connection pipes are fixed whereas the AUF214 ones can be adjusted as per SU.

Does look more like an MGB one but B’s use a banjo instead of the spigot pipes, just reuse the banjo’s.
Does it have a tag of any description?

Hardi web site does list types and has pictures of types + flow/pressures etc.

R.
richard b

Yes I did that anam. Circuit board is as clean and unmarked as the exterior. No loose wires, no scorching or discoloration. All looks pretty good. I also undid the base screws around where the gasket and diaphragm fits. It moves a little, but doesn't want to come apart - I suspect the diaphragm spindle needs disconnecting first. But from what I could see the parts inside all look healthy.
GuyW

Thanks Richard. I will check out the Hardie website.
I dont really mind what it is for as I don't plan on using it. Just an idle afternoon and thinking I would try it out - only to find that doesn't make any sound, which was why my first question. Should it click and would not being connected to a fluid filled pipe stop it from attempting to pump?
I dont categorically if it's broken or not!
GuyW

ETA: I missed the last post until after I had posted.

If a Hardi then as I've read (or misread) it according to their website the 12v up to 60ps pumps are numbered **12.

On the full data sheets I opened the pumps showed as self priming.

So ypu didn't set up fuel demand then, this is also on the site. -
"All HARDI-Pumps have a special control system that enables the adaption of the pumping capacity to the consumption of the engine. This means, it will pump fast at high consumption, slow or not at all at low consumption and therefore a great deal of energy is saved (flexible stroke frequency)."

Trying emailing them, I found them very helpful when I did so and they sent me some free new washers even though I shouldn't need them.

See I do like some German companies, the better ones.

info@hardi-automotive.com

https://www.hardi-automotive.com/en/

I've attached a pdf of "Installation Drawing" which I don't think is on there website but I might be wrong, but it's for "Typ: 11812" (which is a over 100 ps 12V).

If you got a Hardie pump it's a fake. 😉
Nigel Atkins

"slow or not at all at low consumption"
So do you think that with no connections it would not click at all? That appears to be the situation here.

SUs do the opposite - if there is no back pressure on the outlet as when the carb is empty or there is a leak, they go crazy!
No it is marked as a Hardi though also with "Made in Germany" (shouldn't that be in German!)

If it had been spelt Hardie then it wouldn't necessarily be a fake. It could just a different manufacturer. A bit like saying an midget is a fake Sprite because its misspelt!
GuyW

Have you separated the diaphragm fully from the base side of the pump?
From the pic I found on the web I thought it was as the SU. It had a plastic diaphragm completely disintegrated which could have seized the plunger to the base - a bit more welly ?

R.
richard b

I thought these pumps were supposed to be more hardy than SUs!
M Wood

Guy,
I've had a fake Sprite and a fake Midget.

I'm not very good at thinking but perhaps you could think of Hardie/Hardy/Hardi as being different US.
Nigel Atkins

Good one Mike.

But I think it depends whose hands they are in. I think Guy has got the Nigels, he needs watching, carefully, left too long it's irreversible.
Nigel Atkins

I have had a Hardi pump on my Sebring Rep since built in 2003. It clicks away just like an S.U.
I also carry one as a spare when I organise tours abroad. I have had to supply one to a participant to replace a defective S.U. only once.
Alan
Alan Anstead

No one yet seems able to confirm categorically if it should click when not connected to any pipework.
GuyW

True Guy but the pump is self priming so it must actuate to create the suction to pull the fuel from the tank.
My SU’s that failed, struggled to pump/tick as they couldn’t pull the semi ridged diaphragms. However I could get a bit of a spark when connecting to a battery - so a little life !
I would have a go at separating the diaphragm from the pump base casting where the valves are.
richard b

Guy,
email Hardi, get it from the Pferd's mouth.

No one here other than you has tried to dry run the pump.

In my memory the QH pump I had that looked just like a Hardi clicked when ignition was first turned on then perhaps one click more later if the car wasn't started. I can't remember hearing the pump click other than that unless the odd time when stationary with the engine running. But the pump was at the back wheel and I had noises from the tappets, induction, exhaust, gearbox, back axle whine, etc. so perhaps I just couldn't hear it.
Nigel Atkins

The only Hardi pump that I have experience of was fitted to my brother’s BGT. It failed when we were on our way to MG Live at Silverstone and we had to be recovered.

Upon dismantling, it was found to have points, similar to an SU pump. Once cleaned and adjusted, it behaved just like an SU when connected to a battery. I don’t know if the electronic ones are the same, but I would think they probably are.
Dave O'Neill 2

I have a Hardi 9912M on my MGB. It sounds exactly like an SU pump, even when dry. If you go to this page https://www.hardi-automotive.com/en/products/pumps-1224v/ and click on the Table of comparisons English vehicles pdf you will see that a 13312 is recommended for the Midget, but I bet the MGB one would be fine. The only difference is the amount of fuel delivered per hour.
Mike Howlett

13312 is -

. Conveying capacity: 60-80l/h
. Pressure bar: 0,13-0,20
. Starting voltage: 8,5-9,5V
. Operating voltage: 12V
. Power Consumption: 1,5-1,9A
. Suction Head: <1,5mtr.
. Weight: ca. 900g
. Connections: 8mm pivoted (110 degrees IIRC)

The 9912 without the M at the end (I guess but don't know the M is for added connectors?) is -

. Conveying capacity: 100-130l/h
. Pressure bar: 0,28-0,35
. Starting voltage: 9,0-9,5V
. Operating voltage: 12V
. Power Consumption: 1,5-1,9A
. Suction Head: ca. 1,5mtr.
. Weight: 1100g
. Connections: 2xBSPP 3/8”inside
Nigel Atkins

Mike, thanks for that link. From pictures it appears to be a 9912. (No M at the end) making it a 100 to 130 l/hr pump (MGB?) Although my pump doesnt have the model number anywhere on it

But the prize goes to Richard . I removed the base casting which I hadn't attempted before as it was so firmly attached. The diaphragm had stuck to it so tightly I had thought it was integral to the axial plunger. The 2 part diaphragm isn't hardened and once the base was off, connecting the power and 'nudging' it a few times and it lept into life! But when I reattached the base and it again refused to work. Removed the base and operated it, stop start stop start, a few times and on reassembly it is now working properly.
GuyW

Hardy pumps are su clones and work the same way as su pumps.

"The electrical HARDI Fuel Pump is a diaphragm pump. Opposed to mechanical fuel pumps it has its own propulsion (an electric motor or a solenoid coil), which ensures a smooth functioning independent of the engine. All HARDI-Pumps have a special control system that enables the adaption of the pumping capacity to the consumption of the engine. This means, it will pump fast at high consumption, slow or not at all at low consumption and therefore a great deal of energy is saved (flexible stroke frequeency)."

All HARDI-Pumps are self-priming
All HARDI-Pumps are interference-suppressed
All HARDI-Pumps are applicable for various fuels: premium-grade petrol, petrol, diesel, methanol- and ethanol containing fuels.
All HARDI-Pumps are available as 12 volt or 24 volt pumps. Particular models are also available with 6 volt.

All HARDI-Pumps are cold-resistant up to -40°C and heat-resistant up to +80°C.
All HARDI-Pumps are protected against corrosion, maintenance free and have a very long lifetime.
All HARDI-Pumps are easy to install.
Dual Polarity (positive or negative polarity of your vehicle - no problem)

From the horse's mouth. Or, from the team's, harras', rag's, stud's, string's team's, or horses' if there was a bunch of 'em saying it saying it.

https://youtu.be/uQs-oEuDzSw

Nigel may disagree though. Lol.


anamnesis

Dodgy ticker?

Found this.

"The ticker in a Hardi pump is artificial noise. It is fully electronic so there are no points ticking."

"Hardi pumps do have a Marquardt-Switch built in, but the switch is good for at least 10 years (~mechanical life of the switch). You can not hear the click of the switch as it is built into the PCB inside!
It normally stops pumping when the carburettors are full, as the SU does."

And from Dave duBois,

"The Hardi pumps over the years have proven to be an extremely reliable pump, which is a good thing considering that it is impossible to get repair parts for them.
Cheers,"



anamnesis

Nigel, it wasnt just that it wasn't ticking. The diaphragm wasn't moving at all at first. Not until 'encouraged ' to do so. Once started a few times it then decided to operate normally.
Maybe the 'ticking' is artificial but it only ticks when the diaphragm is physically moving and doesn't when its not working. When the coil is activating rapidly (as in no load) there is a fair amount of vibration and noise being generated.
GuyW

Guy
Can you explain the ‘two part diaphragm’ comment please - is it two separate layers ? Particularly interested in how they have fixed/sealed the centre to ensure fuel doesn’t seep through.

Oh you know the address for the ‘prize’ LOL

R.
richard b

Richard, there are two layers to the diaphragm, one red and one black. Black one seemed more rubbery I think. Red was on top nearest to the fuel side. I didnt take much notice about the detail of how the centre is sealed or constructed. I know there was a metal disc about 20mm diameter with, I think, a rivetted centre. I know it wasn't a screw as I looked to see if it could be readily undone from the centre spindle.
GuyW

Guy,
are you mixing me up with anam, see my comment on my experience of the ticking from my QH pump.

Also in my "Posted 17 December 2022 at 16:55:26 GMT" post I put a link to the Hardi website so you and others could explore and get answers for yourself without trusting what I put. Although I found they do have what I put on their Home page 'Contact' link, see screen capture image below. They were very good with me but as you know I'm full of charm.

https://www.hardi-automotive.com/en/

I didn't think the likes of you and anam would want to be spoon fed the answers and wouldn't trust them anyway, and I usually put to cross reference any info you get anyway.

As you can imagine I just fitted the QH pump to the car and tested it on the car things went as they should so that was it tidy up, pack away, clean my self up, forget about the pump - and I have.



Nigel Atkins

anam,
that video was excellent.

The horses would be rolling with laugher later when the white vehicle does that manoeuvre and has the slightest issue with say the reversing light bulb ot light unit or low car battery and the vehicles throws up warnings and/or goes into limp or shut down mode and freezes your bank account as the computer programs leap into action or have a brain-fart. No good saying neigh.
Nigel Atkins

No Nigel, not muddling you this time. You said you couldn't hear yours ticking when it wasnt pumping fuel. I was just saying the reason I couldn't hear it ticking is, as with yours, because the pump wasn't operating. You may recall, I wasn't sure, and was therefore asking, that the fact it wasn't making an audible ticking noise also meant that it wasn't pumping.
Having now got it to operate correctly I now know certainly that it clicks very audibly.
GuyW

Yep, thought you'd like that Nigel 😄..
anamnesis

Guy, so now you know it works is it to be returned to your storage shelf or passed on to someone to use it?
Nigel Atkins

Haven't decided yet Nigel. I only started on this as an idle quest as it was too snowy and icy outside to do much else!
Getting rid of anything is a BIG decision!
GuyW

As soon as you get rid of it, your SU pump will fail, obviously 😑
Jeremy MkIII

Very likely Jeremy.
And, added to that I will forget that I have got rid of the Hardi and will spend several days searching through multiple boxes ( more than once each) looking for it!
GuyW

I've done that a few times and the reverse. Only last Friday I was looking for some kit I've not used for many years and couldn't find it to remember I've given all the odd bits away so that I could buy a fresh set and know I have enough. But as time wasn't on my side I went borrow off someone else who I didn't realise had done the same but I got enough dregs to see me through. On opening the tool box there were the same bits I'd been running round for but more of it. Just an hour I didn't have wasted. As the saying goes my head would never save my legs.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 17/12/2022 and 20/12/2022

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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