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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Help! 5 speed fitting problems.

Has anyone out there fitted a type 9 to a 1098 '65 Spridget, specifically using the Morris Minor Centre kit? The reason I ask is that the 7.1/2" clutch plate supplied by them won't fit either way round. One way (the correct way) it fouls the flywheel bolts and the other way the centre splined boss fouls the new spigot bearing supplied by them and fitted as per their instructions. As the plate is, I beleive, an adapted one, I'm wondering if it has been assembled with the centre boss the wrong way round.
I tried to contact them today, but I got an answerimg machine which probably means they are away till the new year.
Has anyone had this problem and if so how did you get round it?
I was hoping to get quite alot done between Christmas and Newyear, but now I've fallen at the first fence.
Thanks as ever

Bernie.
b higginson

I don't know anything about fitting a 5-speed, but a friend of mine once bought a new clutch plate for his Sprite, only to find that it had been incorrectly assembled...so it's not unheard of.

In his case, it was possible to fit it to the car, but it wouldn't release when the pedal was depressed.
Dave O'Neill 2

Every conversion has it's challenges. For me it was shoehorning the engine back in after changing to a dtasun tranny. the datsun 220 transmission has a different shaped bellhousing that leaves less space between it and the battery tray than the stock transmission. I also had to re route the clutch line.

I have no experience with the MMC or the type 9 conversion. It does sound like they gave you the wrong part.
S.A. Jones

Not much help so far bernie but what intrigues me is the size of the clutch.
I am afaid I have been at this caper for many years so my 5 speed was fitted 20 years ago when we were all using Toyota gearboxes so I have only basic knowledge of the Ford conversion.

That said the Spidget clutch I believe is 6.5 inches and a larger clutch therefore equires machining to the Spridget flywheel, is this the case with your 7.5 inch clutch that you are trying to fit?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob

The 1098 engine uses a 7.5" clutch as standard.
Not much help, I know...but there you go.
Dave O'Neill 2

Ahh that explains that then :-)

Why was it reduced in size later Dave, or is that incorrect?
Could Bernies car have been fitted with a later flywheel and clutch at sometime?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

The 7.5" clutch used coil springs, whereas the 1275 clutch is obviously a diaphragm spring.

As to why they reduced the size, I can only hazard a guess. Possibly to reduce mass with the shorter stroke, higher revving engine?

There is certainly more clamping force with the 1275 clutch. I tried a 7.5" midget clutch on my modified 948 A35 and it didn't last long. A 1275 clutch coped much better.
Dave O'Neill 2

Robert,

The earlier clutches on the 948 and 1098 were coil spring clutches and the later smaller one on the 1275 was a diaphragm spring clutch so higher clamping load possible.

IIRC

948cc 6.25"
1098 7.25"
1275 6.5"

I think the Ford 190mm (7.5") driven plate will fit the 1098 clutch surface without problems and is a standard product rather than the 6.5" 23 spline used for the 1275 which is a custom I think as no one has mentioned the mythical standard application yet.
David Billington

Nice one Dave. I am hoping Peter M will be sorting me out with a 7.5 inch clutch in the next month or two so will not worry about the earlier Spridget alternative. :-)

My clutch with uprated friction plate will not take the power of my engine so need something more substantial.

I wondered what the power output might be at the moment but as yet have not been able to roling road it (clutch slip at high power requirements) However I was reading a Mini magazine (love minis) and one on test had a turbo A Series with 26PSI boost, it developed a staggering 250 BHP!!!!!!!! Now I have 23 PSI boost so what will I have? It is certainly powerful but 200 plus?? surely no way!!!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I'm sure that I put a 7.5 inch clutch onto my k-midget recently, its off a mk3 cortina 1.6 & 2.0 and has the 23 splines needed to fit to the type 9 and it only cost me £15 off evil ebay for clutch plate, clutch cover and release bearing as a kit, its also common part for the hillman avenger, so you should be able to get one a lot cheaper this way than from pete may and frontline etc.

part number QKT102AF Q10007 C752AF CCT133 or search ebay for

FORD CORTINA TALBOT HILLMAN AVENGER CLUTCH KIT HK5090

the seller is

guvltd

I've no link with him, other than buying my clutch off him.

John


John Collins

pretty sure I had to machine the flywheel on mine for 7 1/2 clutch.
Shawn

To fit a type 9 to a 1098 engined Frogeye Sprite I used an Avenger Plate often available as old stock for £5.
Alan.
Alan Anstead

Bob,
PM did my flywheel for a 7.5" nice job, the standard one is on the left.




Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

My flywheel (1275 with type 9)is bolted on with socket headed bolts to provide the necessary clearance, it would foul the originals, would this solve your problem?
Paul MkIMkIV

Paul. Using socket headed bolts could be well the answer and I'll bear it in mind, so thanks for that, but I've first got to have a word with M.M. Centre as to why the plate which they sent with the kit, which they say is the correct one, won't fit. It wasn't cheap either, so I need some answers before I do anything else.
I know all will eventually turn out ok, but it's a bit frustrating when you make time to do something only to be held back by something you can do nothing about until everyone is back at work.

Bernie.
b higginson

Just to pick up on this subject again. It ought to be very easy to machine the flywheel to suit any 7.5 inch clutch pressure plate and then have the friction plate fitted with my toyota bush. However I am concerned at making sure the clutch I fit will take the power it is being asked to transmit. John C what do you think is the spec of the hillman/cortina version and Brad what pressure plate does Peter supply?

I suppose the Cortina job would take the power of the 2 litre pinto wouldn't it?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob (Robert), I'm hoping that the avenger/cortina clutch plate will be up to the job of a 1.8 k-series. The part numbers for this clutch cover 1.6 up to 2.0 cortinas, so it possibly would be ok? if not perhaps an avenger tiger plate may be better?

I was just going on the price as there is no way that I can afford a clutch from frontine when mine was only £15 for plate, cover and bearing, and the cover dropped straight onto the dowels of rover 1.6 flywheel and all bolt holes lined up too!

John
John Collins

Bob

if you can tell me the O/D of your input shaft at the splines and the number of splines on it I have a clutch component cross reference book which may help find you a 190mm O/D driven plate for your gearbox, maybe even just what car the gearbox was out of will suffice.

The book found the Ford ones that John has used.

I've cross referenced three 190mm dia driven plates for Toyota cars so far, starting with low powered 1.3 for Corollas and Tercels as well as Carinas, Celicas and Corollas at 1.6ltr.

From this we might find you a suitable 190mm O/D cover plate too

Ebay might be your friend as it has been for John all along, 190mm is the same diameter as the 7½" you need isn't it?

Unfortunately not having fitted a type9 to a 1098 car I cant help Bernie the same way, but I did find a Ford cover plate from an early 13 Escort that fitted the 1275 flywheel, bolted straight on but sadly it broke its diaphragm when I set off to London three years ago (four years? I can't remember now) that was why I went concentric to avoid pedal overthrow damage.
bill sdgpm

My 1098 flywheel looks nothing like the ones shown above and is flat on the drive face, so it will take a 190mm (7.1/2") plate no problem. It's just that no matter which way round I tried to fit it there was no way it would go on without fouling on something. I have today been in touch with Mike at the M.M.Centre and after I described the one I have to him, he agrees it's probably been assembled incorrectly or it's a rogue plate that has somehow got in with the other ones. Anyway, he is sending me a fresh plate out tonight so we shall see when it arrives. If it's still no good I can get an Avenger one for £16 plus vat, but I've already paid for the M.M.centre one so I'll wait and see.

Bernie.
b higginson

Hi Bill

Without getting the engine out I am working slightly blind.

However I will need a heavy duty clutch cover of 7.5 inches or as you say 190mm
Then I will need a friction plate to match which has a centre that would fit a Toyota Celica I believe. the gearbox that we used all those years ago I am sure is from a Celica and is a 5 speed.

I am wondering if the original Toyota had a 190mm Clutch?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob I'll check it out later tonight

bill sdgpm

Bob

Here's an extract verbatim from the National Clutch Company catalogue (they proudly claim in the preface to the catalogue that they are part of the MJ Allen group of companies, quoting loads of relevant BS and ISO numbers)

Should be OK I think

"Quote"

TOYOTA Celica, Celica-Liftback (-82)
1.6 (TA22/23/25/27/35)ST 1588cc 70-77
1.6 (TA22/23)GT 1588cc 74-77
1.6 (TA45/55/60/61)ST 1588cc 77-82

Clutch diameter 190mm
Part No NCK498... Complete Clutch inc release bearing
Part No NHE1037... Clutch cover plate
Part No NHB1084... Clutch driven plate
Part No NHD1251... Clutch release bearing


This indicates that the Celicas up to 82 had 190mm clutches (after that date they went 200mm but doesn't seem to be a problem, I'd have thought. I didnt come across many Celicas with clutch problems during my working life.)

The part numbers are National's naturally but cross referring them shouldn't be too difficult, I suspect

Good luck
bill sdgpm

Seems that if Bob has a complete Toyota setup it should be no problem to find any number of Toy clutches that will handle loads of power. The crazy Puerto Ricans boost the things to 700hp!

What Celica box is it? T5 is the alloy case split lengthwise, W50 is the iron case that comes apart from the end. T5 came with the 2TC/3TC 1600/1800 pushrod hemi engine and maybe others, W50 on the 18R OHC and up. Still later ones use W55/6/8 alloy case endloaders.

Over here I think all Celica came with 18/20/22R engines & W5x boxes, but Corollas came with 2/3TC and T5.

All these use the same ring gear, but different flywheels to suit the cranks. I have a 2TC flywheel/clutch on the floor. There are a number of clutches up to about 220mm I think, fitting all manner of Toys in this range. Toyotas are a recent thing for me so I don't know a lot, but I'm learning fast! I've been sorting through these for other projects, so I can maybe come up with more info once the box is identified.

FRM
FR Millmore

Meant to ask if Bob has the Toy bellhousing or some sort of conversion thing?

Sorry, the Toy Corolla box is T50, not T5.

Info from Australia:
"Phil Bradshaw's home page" Sorry my computer ate the URL!
Reference to "A series" means Toyotas here.

T-50 Gearbox
The T-50 gearbox has a separate bell housing, uses a hydraulic clutch and comprises 4 main alloy casting: bell housing, two diagonally split gear casings and a tail housing. This gearbox is often referred to as the ‘split case’ alloy 5 speed and weighs 29 kg. The ONLY bell housings that will mate a T-50 gearbox to a 4AGE come from a RWD 'A' series engine (3A/4A/4AGE).

The T-50 bell housing has letters cast externally into the top section between the uppermost bell housing to engine block bolt bosses that identify the engine it came from ie 3A or 4AG etc. 3A and 4A bell housings have the clutch fork on the LHS while 4AG bell housings place it on the RHS.

The T-50 gearbox was fitted to other engines as well, such as 1S and 3T etc. The gearbox itself is identical, however, the bell housings differ to suit the parent engine. There are also two types of T-50 gearbox, referred to as 20 and 22 spline. This relates to the number of splines on the gearbox output shaft. Both gearboxes have the same number of splines on the input shaft. There is also a difference in the diameter of the input shaft bearing, which is covered by the bell housing: 62 mm vs 68 mm. The 68 mm bearing is in the 22 spline gearbox. The 22 spline gearbox is more desirable as it is stronger. It is also what all RWD 4AGEs came with.

In general terms gearboxes made 1983 or newer are 22 spline. This means that 3T, 1S, 3A and 4A engines have 22 spline units. 2Ts are 20 spline - so be careful. The AE 85/86 and AA 63 series T-50 gearboxes are 650 mm long from the engine end of the bell housing to the centre of the gearlever mount, however, some tail shaft housings fitted to earlier 20 spline gearboxes are shorter, hence allowing relocation of the gearlever with some mixing and matching of components.

In reality a 22 spline gearbox is the only one you can use because it is the only one that will mate correctly with an A series bell housing and handle the power.
FR Millmore

Seeing as how this thread hs been completely hijacked I'll leave you to it, but The M.M.Centre sent me a new clutch plate which fits perfectly so the other one must have been a rogue. Now, hopefully, I can get on with the job. BTW, it was £43 plus vat for just the plate, so Peter May's and Frontline's ones might not look too expensive after all.
Only kidding about hijacking. I hope you get sorted Bob, your motor must be putting out some fantastic power for the clutch to keep slipping.

Bernie.
b higginson

I think I have a T50 and to answer FRM I am using a Toyota modified bellhousing. The bellhousing was modified (Butchered is a better word) by Frontline many years ago as part of their conversion kit. This also resulted in a very thick heavy backplate required to be fitted to the rear of the A Series engine.

Having been in contact with the Aussies I can buy a new modified bellhousing that will mate the toyota box up to a standard A Series engine and this I will do.

Bill that information could be priceless if I can machine the Midget flywheel to suit the Toyota clutch then all will be fine (I think?)

Sorry about the hijack Bernie but your thread has been very useful.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob I think it ought to be fine, maybe even as it is. Perhaps a visit to your local clutch geezer next time the flywheel is loose enough to take down for a "fitting"

"Can you see if a Toyota clutch fits these holes?" sort of thing

I did this when I was attempting the BMW gearbox thingy, the local guy in the black country was better than helpful, even allowing me free access to his storage shelves to find whatever could help.

I wish I'd had the flywheel drilled and tapped for the 190mm clutch now but not-doing it was part of the intention, "Can I make standard parts fit a 1275?", was the question...

We live and learn, which is why I try to help out with these clutch gearbox flywheel interface questions

Bernie, I hoped MMC would sort you out and yes don't their driven plates cost a lot, far too much in my opinion which was why I mentioned the clutch John C has bought on ebay using my catalogue info as basis for the purchase

I doubt if you would have needed to have the flywheel modified, screw and dowel locations are fairly conventional on most clutches, some times it is a matter of the depth of the pressure (cover) plate that makes for "fit or no fit" and John's Cortina clutch is 7½" diameter like the 1098 (I think, 'cos now I'm getting confused
bill sdgpm

Bernie

Was there an obvious difference between the two clutch plates?
Dave O'Neill 2

The T50/2TC Toy clutch measures 7 1/2 driven plate, cover 10" outside; I think this is the clutch Bill gives the numbers for.
The only A series flywheels I have loose are a 948 one I think, and an 1098, and the OD exclusive of ring gear is 9 3/4".
Seems to me all A series flywheel are the same OD, so this scheme is a no go, unless you want the bolts to have their threads showing on the periphery! It could be made to work by juggling bolt sizes, but it is very tight.
Plenty of wasted space in the Toy cover, so there might be something else to suit with a smaller OD/bolt circle. One could easily be made with a 9 1/2 OD if you was a clutch Fabrik.

FRM
FR Millmore

Fletcher

I am NOT suggesting that Bernie needs a Toyota clutch for his A series engine, the o/d of the Toyota cover plate is irrelevant

If the 7½" clutch fits A series (I understand it does) a standard European type cover (Ford Cortina uses the famed Pinto unit) could well fit if the screw and dowels are the same or similar

I seem to remeber that Bernie has fitted (by now, Bernie?) A Ford Type 9 (Pinto again) gearbox to his car and has only needed a clutch driven plate to join up all its dots.

I was suggesting a possible, even maybe probable way to go for those of us with type 9 availability

It costs little to go to a clutch specialist and ask

And I find that experts just love to give advice, esecially with difficult questions

:-)
bill sdgpm

Bill -
Understood. I figured Bernie had solved his problem, and you posted the Toyota info as an aid for Bob's supercar, your comments being addressed to Bob. And you raised the possibility of finding Bob a cover based on the Toyota bits. Since I then raised the possibility of the Toyota clutch complete, I figured I'd give my latest "by examination" info.
It appears that the 2T/3T Corolla and Celica driven plate at 7 1/2"/190mm will fit the Toyota GBX conversions with any suitable cover that fits on the flywheel. Such cover would be 9 3/4" or less OD.

To quote yourself: "If the 7½" clutch fits A series (I understand it does) a standard European type cover (Ford Cortina uses the famed Pinto unit) could well fit if the screw and dowels are the same or similar."

I doubt very much that there is a cover that fits the 1275 flywheel but also clears the 190mm plate without redrilling, but if somebody finds one I'd like to know - the distance between the bolts on the 1275 clutch being less than 7 1/4"!

FRM
FR Millmore

Dave. Yes there was a big difference in the plates. The wrong one had six springs and the correct one, which looks suspiciously like an Avenger one, has only four. I mentioned the similarity and the guy went all defensive saying that "We don't do Avengers only Morris Minors and Spridgets". It was far too late to start moaning about the price anyway, so I didn't pursue it.

Bill. The 1098 flywheel only has two dowels at 12. and 6. O'clock, but the clutch cover from M.M.Centre which I also had to pay extra for, has three, at 12, 4, and 8,like the 1275, so I had to take it to my local machine shop to have it "indexed" and It was also balanced with the cover. So all in all, it looks like I now have everything I need, even though I do rather feel as if I've had my trousers taken down and given a good spanking. I shudder to think about the total cost. I just hope it's worth it in the end.

Bernie.
b higginson

Yes Fletcher

I am aware that the 190mm cover is too darned big for the 1275, but it seems that Peter May and others redrill to fit "Big Clutch" units, Bob has ordered one of Peter

which is why I wrote what I wrote

I have fitted a small (165mm)Ford cover to my unmodified flywheel but the cover wasnt up to the task and snapped its diaphragm spring...

That was the last disaster before I fitted my concentric clutch unit

When I wrote

"If the 7½" clutch fits A series (I understand it does) a standard European type cover (Ford Cortina uses the famed Pinto unit) could well fit if the screw and dowels are the same or similar."

I was writing to Bernie who has the larger diameter "Coil Spring" type clutch unit in his 1098cc car, my mistake thinking that addressing Bernie helped make sense of the remark

The essence is, as I'm sure you will agree, is that research down several alleyways can pay dividends

Agents and dealers are always ready to fnd new categories of users to sell to, so will usually help with research questons
bill sdgpm

Bernie

Glad you are sorted now.

Took my engine and box out over Christmas.
Cut the crossmember out today - what a pain in the ar*e that was.

Will catch up with you on Wednesday.

Les
Les Robinson

Just when you thought it was safe to back in the workshop. I thought I was sorted, but NO!

The new roller release bearing ends up about 1 inch short of the pressure plate diaphragm with the slave cylinder push rod at full stretch and the new clutch lever pivot bracket causes the release bearimg to bind on the tube because the pivot bolt holes are in the wrong place by a few thou of an inch. WHAT NOW? Actually, I know what I'm going to do, but first a word with the "manufacturers". Oh but don't they love to take your money? I'm getting really p*ssed off now.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie

didn't anyone tell you to cut the guide tube off the gearbox seal

binding on the tube is guaranteed, "they" say

I never had any success with the slave cylinder/fork release system so I went in for my concentric release/slave cylinder instead






bill sdgpm

There are two types of Fork (yoke) pivot.
One has a hole and the other a slot.
In all seven type 9 conversions I have done I have only ever used a carbon thrust. Call me a Luddite if you like.In all instances of my use of a carbon thrust I have removed the guide tube.When fitting up a 1098 clutch I used an Avenger plate with 1098 pressure plate.
Alan Anstead

Whilst you are sorting this issue and to save time later. Cut the upper lug on the clutch slave cylinder from a hole to a vertical slot. Screw the UNC top bolt into position, on the bellhousing, before presenting the cylinder to it. This will save a struggle later as it is nearly inaccessible later due to restrictions on access especially if you have large hands.
Also to make light work later remove the bleed nipple and substitute with either a pipe or flexible hose. The flexible brake hose at back axle has the correct length and fitting. At its upper end fit a brass three way adaptor as again found at the back axle. Blank one opening, I choose the middle, with a 3/8 UNF bolt, cut to length, and copper washer and fit the nipple into the last hole. You now have a remote bleed. Where to fit? I use an L shaped bracket off the two top bellhousing holes curving toward the front of the car. The brass three way has a hole for a 1/4 UNF bolt leaving you to drill & tap a suitable hole in the bracket or weld on a captive nut.
You can now bleed under the bonnet within reach of the master cylinder.
Alan Anstead

The Morris Minor Centre conversion is designed to use the 1275 clutch release fork from the late ribcase box. I thought their instructions made this clear?


Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Bill. I was sent a roller release bearing which needs to slide along the tube. I cut of just enough of the tube to clear the pressure plate. That concentric set up looks good. Fiesta?

Alan. Thanks for the tip about the slave cylinder,although I've never had any problems bleeding the clutch, probably because I have small beautifully formed hands. I've given up on the roller bearing idea and am going to use the 1098 pressure plate and carbon thrust release with the plate the M.M. centre sent me after cutting off the whole of the tube. I'm certain you're not a Luddite, as you create things, while t'Luddites smashed things up in t' mills oop 'ere in t' North.

Daniel. Half of the instructions were missing and some wrong clutch parts were sent.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie

concentric

Saab 900 and roller release £36 + £18-ish

modified Burton Power mount boss £5 eBay

£8 lump of ally billet to machine to suit the distance needed from the back of the bell housing (loads leftover)

blood sweat tears and far better gearchanging ever since with no more broken diaphragm spring plates
bill sdgpm

And I never had ANY luck with the MMC roller release bearing

hence...
bill sdgpm

Or the same idea, with a Fiesta slave, also on a home-made mount.

Guy


Guy Weller

Nice one Guy. When my carbon thrust wears out I think that's the way I should go. But for now I just need to get it in and done for this year. I'll just see how it performs. Hope my second hand 69000 mile box is ok.

Bernie.
b higginson

This thread was discussed between 29/12/2009 and 13/01/2010

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