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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - HGF after the winter!!!!

Hi all, I've been missing in action for a while as for some strange reason finishing the house took priority over the spridgets.

Now I have managed to clear all the plasterboard and materials from the garages and put a workbench in I can now get to the spridgets again.

On the Sprite the battery was dead so after charging it life sprang forth but an odd metallic sound which did not sound too healthy so switched it off straight away.

On checking the oil I found the top inch was milky and the level about 2cm above the max mark on the dipstick. I checked the oil filler cap and all was clean.

I changed the head gasket for a copper one at the start of last year before the show season and had no issue's with coolant loss or water in the oil all through the show season and it run like a dream.

When I undid the sump plug last night the coolant came out first in a stream before the oil did so I am sure I need to change the gasket yet again but would like confirmation that I really need to do so or would I get away with an oil change?

If I do take the head off is it time to change the head bolts for ARP ones?

Thanks in advance
Shaun

Shaun

Blimey - Sounds like alot of the coolant is in the oil ? What level is the coolant ?

Perhaps its something more serious than HGF - Was the coolant fully anti-freezed , maybe something froze and cracked over the winter. Hope its not, but I wouldnt have thought a leak between water and oil/block at HG level would have let that much coolant into the block especially if its only run for a few seconds since being all ok.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Dean

Thanks for your comment, however the car is stored in an internal garage and has had glycol in it and therefore should not of frozen but water flowed out for the first couple of seconds. I must admit I did have my suspicions and the end of last year but put that down to a po using the wrong bolt in the radiator drain off and it was leaking off.

It maybe that it happened in the last few run but all mixed together and only seperated during the winter.

I shall just have to give it a go I thinks

Shaun
Shaun

Shaun I think you will hear a lot of this in the next few days mate

ditch the copper gaskets and always buy the Payen dark Grey composite material head gaskets, someone will have the gasket part number handy for you.

I had HGF with a copper one too even though they used to be gasket of choice for the sporting gentleman, back in the day.

The Payen type were as used in the Rover gasket set and are preferred for Metro turbo engines too. If you can get the proper Rover gaskets that will be fine.

My copper gasket failed (I think) during the engine's unused period whilst the car was under refurbished-ment.

maybe they (copper gaskets) dont like hibernation
bill sdgpm

Hi Shaun,
is your radiator full of oil by any chance?
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Payen BK450 is the black composite gasket

(AF460 is the Copper gasket number)

Regards

JB
James Bilsland

Not this time Brad only water + glycol in the radiator but a ford drain tap!!!! No wonder it's been leaking.

You made it back home then!
Shaun

As this is such a pain to swap out I'm thinking of changing the head studs for ARP ones in case the old ones have had it.

Is this worth doing?

Thanks
Shaun
Shaun

At the end of my 1380 rebuild the arp headstuds were a little too rich for my depleted toy fund so went for the mini spares uprated set (C-AHT280) instead.

Time will tell but I've not gone for particularly high revs, high compression or forced induction so I'm happy with the choice. For a standard engine I don't see why even just a quality new standard set shouldn't be enough.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

shaun,

Welcome back,

If your not running anything specially modified, then just New hardware...(Proper spec) would be okay, other wise ARP is the gold standard.

I got to go with something cracked in the block, (I HATE To say that, and I am sorry to do so.)

""IMHO""... I dont think there would be alot of coolent stored in the head over the winter to create that much coolent in the sump pan if the gasket was just leaking, plus you said there wasnt any oil in the rad. which means it wasnt flowing oil in the rad. during the last drive while running meaning this occured while sitting still un-used.

It was a super cold winter,,,we had many nights with the temp well below zero...both F. and C., And Ive meet several people that have already lost everyday engines as a result...I think this is due mostly to old worn out antifrezze...the evidence is a good anitdote as to why we need to change out antifresse every 2 years

I really hope Im wrong

Prop
Prop

Standard ones would be ok for the Sprite Shaun, just do them up more than finger tight next time.
I am home, its a bit damp.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

" just do them up more than finger tight next time. "

That pretty well sums it up - this problem is the result of not retorquing the head bolts after running, and after appropriate time periods and heat/cool cycles. The long rest and possibly very cold periods are the mother of heat/cool cycling.
Since it is a copper faced gasket (not the same as solid copper ones which should not be used), it is quite possible that simply retorquing now and again as soon as you get it hot will save it. Not ideal, but I've saved a few.
Nothing wrong with the standard studs, repro are a crapshoot, and ARP is overkill.

The more serious problem is that glycol is VERY BAD for bearings. Change O&F now, run it and torque the head, change O&F again. Repeat after a week or so use. The proper procedure for getting glycol out is unbelievable and involves chemicals that will remove chrome plate from trucks in the same shop, just from the fumes that come out the exhaust! I suggest very frequent oil changes over the first thousand miles, and dissection of the filters to look for disintegrating bearings. Or oil analysis will show it up.

FRM
Fletcher R Millmore

FRM,

Agreed with the glyco and damage to bearings, Couldnt he do several washes with K1 kerosene and several oil filters in place of oil on a saterday afternoon to breakdown and wash out the glyco?

I did this several years ago on my work truck when I had to replace the head do to several non-repairable cracks, that allowed glyco in the oil for several weeks...45K miles later, so far so good.

Prop...Great, Now I Did it! I wonder if ebay has a new engine for my truck...LOL.
Prop

Thanks for the advice guys, I did re-torque on several occasions after the putting the head on.

I was wondering if I should replace the torque wrench as it is over 20 years old and never been calibrated?

I think the amount of water in the oil might be my fault as I did top it up without running the engine but assumed (wrongly) that it was dripping out the bottom as it had the wrong drain tap, One out of a Ford fitted by the po.

I am going to replace the head gasket with a turbo one this time and then get a set of the mini spares head studs for peace of mind as I did strip the threads on a couple of the old ones last time.

Tomorrow night will be the teller as I am left with the head bolts to undo and it's off!!! I think I will check with the torgue wrench first just to make sure they are tight.

Shaun





Shaun

I never did the chemical thing the oil analysis lab told me to do - too frightening! In that case I had to take the engine apart anyway to replace the cylinder liners scored by the pieces of intercooler that fell in, which also caused the AF in the oil, so it got new bearings anyway.
With lesser engines I've always succeeded by just changing the oil several times after the problem was corrected. OTOH, later bearing failure of engines that have sat a long time is caused by bearing corrosion, and glycol in the oil can't help.

Prop - GO START YOUR CAR!

FRM
Fletcher R Millmore

Shaun there is no such thing as a "turbo" headgasket. The Metro turbo uses the Payen BK450 composite headgasket just as all other A series kits use. As James pointed out. :)
I never had a problem with the copper AF 460 gasket so am wondering what has happened I am curious on 2 counts
How much water was in the sump?
Do you think the engine started up with water in the oil pickup pipe? this picks up at almost the bottom of the sump and with water being heavier than oil, the bottom will have been flooded with water.

Sadly I almost agree with Prop...........!!!!!!!...... if there is a lot of water then perhaps other things have happened. Worth removing the cylinder head and having a look.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I tend to agree that the oil pump picked up the water that was in the bottom of the sump and that's the reason I did not spot it on the dipstick, I stopped the engine straight away as I cold tell something was not right.

Imagine my surprise when I undid the sump plug and I got pink water splurging out before any oil.

There is no sign of water on the rocker gear or underside of the rocker cover.

Time to order 20lt of 20/50, whatever happened to the cheap stuff you used to be able to buy!!, I heard that you can use 5w/30 semi synth as that is cheaper as I dread the cost of using 20/50 just to flush through the system.

I think I will just replace with the BK450 instead of the copper this time as that's what I fitted to the midget last time.

Regards
Shuan

Shaun

If you want to flush out with cheap oil then pop down to your local supermarket and get a gallon of their very cheapest. They generally have something for less than a fiver.
Yep use the composite I certainly use it now even though I never had a problem with the copper. I just feel better with it. :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Maybe the content of the head isn't that much, but what about the heater matrix? That would also drain into the sump.
Alex G Matla

Would it drain ? . On my 73 both the inlet and outlet to the heater are well above above the top of the head and I doubt it would set up a syphon.

Shaun's symptoms suggest the oil and water had been sitting long enough to fully separate
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

are well above above the top of the head...
Ah, yes, you're right if you mean the in and outlet of the matrix are on the top side of it.
Alex G Matla

My guess is that it is a straightforward HGF that took place in the last day or two of use before the car was stored. HGF can be quite subtle sometimes and not be immediately apparent. Increased oil level of up to 2cms is not a huge amount of water - maybe a pint or so. The volume in the head isn't really relevant if the failure results in a pressurised cooling system "venting" into the engine.

Biggest risk might have been hydraulic lock on flooded cylinders at re-start, but it seems you got away with that!

Guy
Guy Weller

The Kseries engine might have the reputation of HGF but the last hgf in a midget was reported atleast 4 years ago...(knock on wood)
The Aseries have sufford alot of it on this bbs in the last year.

A serious thought to convert the engine isnt it? ;)
Arie de Best

No.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

LOL Arie, I thimk you need to ask Dennis (of Wharf fame) about K series engines and the occassional HGF!! :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

yes Arie but the only reason you haven't reported HGF is cos you're car is forever in the workshop!

I will now stand well back and wait for the witty retort...
Tarquin

Finally got it apart tonight and it looks like the gasket has come apart for some reason!! I'm going back to the composite gasket.

The picture show the three layers seperating, I can only assume the coolant got in.

I agree with Arie, Brad just likes to cause himself pain by trying to get too much hp out of an A.

Shaun


Shaun

Pick of the complete gasket!!!!


Shaun

Yep, that's what a gasket from a loose head looks like. Sometimes the stuffing comes right out the side of the joint. The black ones will also fail if not tightened and retightened correctly, but it usually takes a little longer.

FRM
Fletcher R Millmore

That maybe so but what I don't understand is that I checked it with the torque wrench before taking it off and all the studs were fine....

I'm thinking of a new torque wrench to be on the safe side for the next time.
Shaun

This thread was discussed between 02/03/2010 and 03/03/2010

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