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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - HIF44 Initial Setup


Hello All,

Mainly prompted by the comments on previous threads about big gains in fuel economy, I've bought myself a HIF44 and manifold etc off eBay. It's not arrived yet, but it's a bit of an unknown quantity and was planning to strip it and take a good look at the weekend, and probably treat it to a refurb kit

I've got my copy of Vizard out and am wondering whether all his carb mods are really necessary for a slightly tired stock engine, and also wondering how I should go about setting it up...

so, my engine spec is:

slightly tired stock engine (old recon with +20 overbore)
Maniflow exhaust
(soon to be) HIF44 with conical K&N and stub stack


And my questions are:

What needle would you recommend?

Where is my starting point for tuning the HIF from scratch? Is it 12 flats out like the twins?

Are any of the Vizard mods worthwhile on an engine of this spec?

Given that the Dolomite Sprint has the flat damper, can I simply buy one of them from Burlen and swap it for the std damper if I need to increase my bonnet clearance - or is it not that simple? (guess it's not?)


Thanks! I'll let you know how I get on.

Mark
MarkH1

Hi Mark, would not have thought any Vizard-like mods were worth doing at this stage. I would spec it and set it up the same as a 1.3 Metro, perhaps you can find a handbook or manual for that?
David Smith

As David here, I doubt that there'd be much benefit by "Vizarding" your HIF.

My set up has a 1980s "Spridgebits" Fast Road Cam, MG Metro cylinder head and distributor (electronics, for reliability and a curve that suits the Metro head) a really disgustingly made Peco long centre branch exhaust.

And a HIF44 from a MG Metro on a Titan manifold.

The Austin-Rover Workshop Hand Book Data Supplement gives the BDL as the initial needle for the HIF or you could go for a BGY, another option (engine number dependant) I had BDL.

My car, when the needle had been fettled lovingly by Peter Burgess, was said to have about 90 BHP at the flywheel on his old rolling road.

The carb is unViZZed and the head is unBurgessed (so far, who knows what the future may bring for it?).
Bill 1

Mark

I think the advice you have received so far is spot on. I set up my HIF44 as for the MG Metro (BDL needle), but, I have an MG Metro head and other bits. With a standard head I would start as for a 1.3 Metro. The needle used for most 1.3 Metros was BEJ. Having said that there was variation and some used a BER needle.

You need to bear in mind that you are changing the specification from standard so it is likely that you will need a bit of trial and error to get the right needle. There is a computer programme called WinSU that is cheap (IIRC about £5) that recommends needles and also allows you to compare needles. So if you find BEJ too weak (say) you can look up another needle that is a bit richer. I warn you that it can get expensive if you try too many needles so it pays to be systematic and give this some thought before rushing out for yet another needle.

Best of luck

Chris
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Mark. I have a HIF44 on my 1133cc A series engine (1098 overbored 40 thou.) I fitted a BDL needle following advice from this BBS.
I was at Peter Burgess's rolling road last Friday and Peter reckoned my car was pretty well set up. He did a bit of ignition timing adjustment and I eventually saw 50BHP at the wheels. The car goes well and is not heavy on juice.

Bernie.
b higginson

Yes BDL is the needle specified for the MG Metro which is obviously a higher tune that the standard Metro. BEJ would cover the lower tuned engines though my Austin-Rover book gives BER for most untuned 1275 (1399) engines.

"Not heavy on juice" describes most HIF cars I have come across.
Bill 1

I have never bothered to check mpg before, as I just drive the car the way I want, but as a part of the Corley Crew we tootled our way at about 55-60mph. I did check when I got home, and my HIF44 gave me 45mpg, so I was well pleased, especially as I use the "super" unleaded. However, a slightly more spirited run to the Ace Cafe and back on the tuesday (trying to keep up with Bill 1, sdgpm) gave me a return of 35mpg, which is still quite acceptable. HIF44 has a BDL needle.
Geoff Mears


Thanks very much everyone.

I'll take a look at what's currently in it when it arrives...got to get throught the MOT today first...
MarkH1

Hello,

sorry to jump on the thread,i have been trying to get the same set up but i am having trouble finding a manifold,has anybody got one lying around for sale.

Cheers Wayne.
W Williams

Mark, I'd speak to Burlen about the damper, the metro one is on a pivot and the Triumph one is fixed and shorter I think. Not sure if they are interchangeable. It would be interesting to see if a flat top one is available that works ok, as that would save about 1/4"
Cheers John
HALL JOHN

John - I've had Burlen be quite unhelpful in the past, saying they wouldn't want to comment on anything non-standard ... but maybe they've improved now they're calling themselves the SU Carburettor Co.

Wayne - go on eBay and trawl for an alloy A-series manifold with the numbers '4001' on it and also the legend 'hi-flow', though that is not always readable. This is a Mangoletsi manifold: yes, the Knutsford Alfa dealer used to be a 60s/70s 'Speed Shop' as well-known as Downton or Alexander.

This manifold flows well according to Vizard and holds the carb at the same height as the fabled Titan Spridget model. This one is on eBay at the moment (though not a particular bargain at a start price of £40) at item number 280691703163:

Tom


Tom Coulthard

(Same seller has a Titan manifold on a BIN, but wants £100 for it.)
Tom Coulthard

Hmm...that seller certainly has some interesting stuff - even if a bit pricey.
Peter B

So was it you, Mark, who got the hif44, inlet and K&N in the week that I had my eye on?
I have been looking for some time, I have even been round the local breakers yards but can't get one.
Good luck with the setup. Let us know if it id any better.
Dave
D Brown

Yes Dave, it was me :-)

The auction also included a second Hif44 and a HS6 for spares, so I'll check them out and probably offer them back on eBay to minimise the outlay since I also need to buy a steering rack now following the MOT. :-(

It would be interesting to do a comparison of the various manifolds available and see what combinations work without modification. The one I have bought is a bit of an oddball and how it will fit in a midget is anyone's guess at the mo!

Perhaps those that have done the HIF conversion could post on this thread what they have and how they made it fit, and we could add it to the wiki?
MarkH1

<<It would be interesting to do a comparison of the various manifolds available and see what combinations work without modification>>

Well, that's what I did and the results are in the archives ... That is how I discovered the Mangoletsi 4001 holds the carb at the same height as the Titan.

Mark - if you let me have the auction number (on here or by email) I will check out the pic of the manifold - or you could repost the pic here.

Tom
Tom Coulthard

Mark,
I am glad it went to a good home, albiet not mine ;-)
Enjoy it.
Good luck with the steering rack and MOT.
Dave
D Brown

Thanks for the info Tom, it'll probably go for mega bucks now you've let the secret out!
There used to be a few interesting spares shops on Deangate Manchester years ago, sadly non left now.
Cheers John
HALL JOHN


Tom, apologies for cutting across the good work you've already done - like a few others I seem to struggle with getting meaningful results out of the archive...

the manifold is apparently from min-its, who I've never heard of, so is probably a copy of somebody else's. Should have arrived in the post today, but not shown up yet...I'll post some pictures when it arrives.

Cheers
Mark
MarkH1

Forgot to say that the ebay item number is 200616650925
MarkH1

Sorry, Mark if I sounded snippy - it's just that I'm getting old and, um ... snippy. The Min-its manifold does look to pay considerable homage to the Howley item, rated by Vizard, but no banana for our purposes. (They're still around at min-its.com - you could ask them who they ripped it off off of ;-))

The 'test result' post is as follows (Feb 2010):

"Actually I can’t be 300% certain about HIF clearance because I don’t have a steel bonnet on any of my cars – don’t hold with the things. (If God had intended Spridgets to keep their steel bonnets, He wouldn’t have brought John Sprinzel among us ...)

However, I have done a Giant Test of manifolds and measured – principally – the height of the top of the standard piston damper’s plastic ‘top hat’ relative to the underside of the cylinder head. The other two figures are horizontal distances: the highest point from the manifold face of the head and the furthest projection (the fuel float bowl) from the manifold face:

Titan Spridget (20% angle): 207 / 145 / 227

Mangoletsi 4001 (10% angle): 207 / 156 / 215

Minex: 214 / 141 / 211

BL MG Metro: 216 / 126 / 206

Howley: 218 / 119 / 221

Janspeed: 226 / 108 / 238

Mangoletsi 400 (small ports for 998): 232 / 127 / 249


Sadly these measurements are not ideally accurate, as I lack the equipment for 3D. Assume an error of at least 1-2mm, but hopefully they’re generally indicative. For comparison purposes, a single Metro phenolic spacer with gaskets each side was fitted between carb (an HIF44 from a MG Metro) and manifolds, without a heatshield, and a well-flattened secondhand manifold/head gasket was used.

Both the Minex and Metro items are markedly swan-necked, and the Minex looks very similar to the period Maniflow alloy manifold, unmarked clones of which are all over eBay. The Metro is certainly the shortest - huddling over the centre exhaust outlet like a BL striker over a picket line brazier. The Howley, Janspeed and both Mangoletsis rise up at more uniform angles. The Titan is more or less level.

You could gain a few extra mm clearance by losing the spacer (with a possible small loss of airflow around the butterfly), and quite a few mm more by substituting the flat-topped piston damper mentioned in the archives (LZX 1389 – though having tried it 6 years ago, I complained of ‘engine pick-up’ being ‘rougher’ – whatever that means)."

John - Deansgate is so posh these days it hardly feels like Manchester at all!

Tom
Tom Coulthard

Tom, very little of Manchester, "feels" like Manchester anymore! I'm getting a little old too!
Cheers John
HALL JOHN

To make my HIF44 fit, (as well as having a titan manifold), I cut a bit off the suction chamber piston (with difficulty!!), then cut down the damber piston rod accordingly, and substituted the top hat for a HS6 flat cap. The only downside is it reduces the amount of oil you can put in.
Geoff Mears

Bear in mind that the clearance between dash pot top and bonnet depends on the engine mounts used. When I fitted my new engine I used genuine Rover engine mounts. Unnoticed by me, they were 3/8ths of an inch thicker than my old mounts of unknown origin. 3/8th doesn't sound much but because of the angle they are fitted they lifted my engine almost 3/4 of an inch and I quickly got a nice ding in the bonnet. I went back to the old mounts (nothing was really wrong with them) and this restored the necessary clearance. If you are having clearance problems - try replacing the engine mounts with some aftermarket ones that are thinner!
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

This thread was discussed between 16/06/2011 and 21/06/2011

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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