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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Interesting conundrum

My Frogeye developed a problem recently where it would start missing and trying to quit running when I let up on the throttle. I would give it some gas and the problem went away. A while later it would come back with the same fix. I did all of the usual checks, distributer leads, fuel pump, fuel in the bowls. Nothing. Then I went to check the oil in the dashpot. That's when I discovered that on the front carb the screws that hold the chamber to the carb were loose. Mystery solved. Runs like it always did.

I think what happened is that with the the screws loose, that chamber would rise with the piston and when I let off on the throttle the piston would settle and jam open inside of the slightly cantered chamber.

You've got to love these cars.
Martin

Absolutely Martin, they are (relatively) simple machines and it's very satisfying when you notice something and think 'that's not right', fix it and it sorts the problem 😉!
Jeremy MkIII

Interesting that we think of old technology as 'simple'.

So simple that it only took modern humans about 200000 years to invent the carburettor.

A plain table knife is simple too. And that only took humans 200000 years less circa 7000 years, to discover metal to make knives from.

It's all simple when you know how.

I've known people who can't tie shoe laces. 🙃
anamnesis

A couple of days ago a friend called me.
-My van won't start. Would you give me an opinion?
-Sure. Strawberries are vile stinking things. Do you want a second opinion?

I went to have a looksee. Tried the voltmeter across the battery while keying the starter. No real voltage drop but I could hear the solenoid chattering. Near certain sign of a V drop so probably local to the solenoid.
Crawl under the van. Immediately spot a wire that I've never seen before, a small earth strap from the solenoid coil. Poked it with a finger and it moved so surreptitiously pulled it off, gave it a doing with the trusty wire brush and shoved it back on.
Stood up to see matey scrolling his phone looking for the number for the tow truck. Stressed.
So I reached in the drivers window and keyed it and (thank Providence) it fired up instantly.
Lucky git.

The look on his face was a picture while I tried my hardest not to look smug. It really was just blind luck!
Greybeard

You should have given him an impressive technical description of how you diagnosed and then fixed the problem. Lol.

Blimey, don't like strawberries? That's like not liking sex ain't it? 😃


Why are strawbwrries so named?

Historians aren’t sure. One theory is that woodland pickers strung them on pieces of straw to carry them to market. Others believe that the surface of the fruit looks as if it’s embedded with bits of straw. Still others think that the name comes from the Old English word meaning to strew, because the plant’s runners stray in all directions and look as if they are strewn on the ground.

Traditionally, it was believed that the name “strawberry” came from the fact that the plant was bedded in straw. But as experts at Oxford University have pointed out, the name was around when strawberries were growing wild, and before they were grown as a crop in this country.

Maybe a sraw poll would tell us. 😉

Martin, my front carb has to have the piston cover round the right way. I've marked it with an 'ff" for front carb front face. If I reverse it, the piston sticks.



anamnesis

I love this BBS. I post about my carburetors and four posts later we are on strawberries (which I like).

Martin

I’ve heard it said that strawberries are the only fruit with its seeds on the outside.

That being the case - why did it evolve that way?
Philip Sellen

Lol Martian, I love it too.
It's like being in the pub without the expense and hangover!
Mrs GB is a gardener of some notoriety and reckons that the seeds are on the outside to make sure the birds have to ingest them to get to the flesh. The birds then distribute the seeds along with their more prosaic product.
She puts the fruit bearing shoots into glass jars to frustrate the birds, which works up to a point but turns out to be an absolute gift to the mice.

As for eating the things, you're welcome to my share Lawrence. Can't stand the stink myself. But I dimly remember sex being a sweaty and undignified business too.
Greybeard

Great BBS as ever. Learnt more about SU carbs and strawberries.

I wonder if I posted a question about a problem with clutch hydraulics before almost inevitably the thread would drift to discussing gooseberries! Is Nigel on holiday, as I bet the ‘Good Book’ (factory published Owner’s Handbook) has a wise raspberry or two to offer.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Strawberries and carbs

"On average, a single berry contains 1.38 grams total carbs and 1 gram net carbs"

From that the drift makes sense to me ;).
David Billington

Lol David. Well spotted 😃

1.38 is pretty close to 1.25, which is what our carbs are.😉
anamnesis

So if you swap your carbs for strawberries, you get more juice.😅😅
anamnesis

But then, what color is the exhaust?
Martin

You shouldn't run SU's on strawberries they'll get jammed---------
- How many grams of protein are in a strawberry pi?
- 3.14159265
William Revit

Lol Willy. A whole new meaning to traffic jam. And the pie would be never ending. 😉

Not sure what colour, but the exhaust would be edible. 😁

You wouldn't need oil fields anymore either. Instead you'd have strawberry fields forever. Good for, and thanks to, beatles and bugs. 😅😅.
anamnesis

So, Ananassia, do you like your strawberries with Cream?
GuyW

And sugar, ------ and spice and all things nice. ♫

And esp' with tennis. But they won't eat them in Moscow this year. 🙃

anamnesis

Confession. Looked up 'Ananassia Guy. 😁.

They're very popular in Japan. Yoko likes them too. At 89, she can't be far off the fields.
anamnesis

Try dipping them, strawberries not carbs, into cognac and then into sugar. I think that might even convert Greybeard.
Roger D

Aman, I thought you might just assume it to be a typo 🤔🤣
GuyW

For a REAL treat, instead of Strawberries and Cream try Strawberries and Branston Pickle. Don't knock it till you have tried it!!!!!
Rob
MG Moneypit

As it's just one letter away Aman

Anyway, no one has mentioned ....
https://youtu.be/dxNMgoiNLFs

Even if the Ramones did loose!
GuyW

My oldest daughters (twins) had a classmate named Strawberry Fields. Some people don't think of the consequences when they name their child.

I worked with someone who had twin classmates named Stan (short for Standard) and Hydro ( short for Hydromatic). Their father was a bit of a car enthusiast.

Don't know if they did or didn't like strawberries.
Martin

I used to work with a bloke from oop north, who called everybody Tulip.

A rose is a rose etc, even when it's a strawberry.

Strawberries and cream; and cognac sounds interesting too,-- salivates at thought. Strawberries and branston? Not so much, but next time I have a punnet, I'll give it a whack.

You make a typo Guy? Nah, you're always too precise 😄. I remember exactly where, and almost what time I first heard that strawbs hit. A club called Scamps in Croydon, cira 9-10pm, and probably a thursday, as that was mostly when I used to go. I was a rabid socialist back when I was 19, and it struck a chord 😅😅.

Do strawberries grow well in Jordon then? It's only one letter away 😉

Were you a loose bin bag wearing punk rocker Guy?
anamnesis

I've got a conundrum, but it's not interesting; it's bloody annoying.

My Capri has a rattle, somewhere near or in the engine bay. It's like a clanking sound, irregular, and although not directly related to rpm, the clatter rate does increase slightly with rpm. It sounds like a sheet metal cover being rattled against something else that's harder. I've had my ear on a rod against the engine, and it doesn't sound internal. I can't pinpoint it directionally, it's 'everywhere' (and nowhere baby -- that's where it's at 😉). And it's driving me potty.

If I knew it was trivial, I'd ignore it until it 'fell off'. But I don't, so I can't. Grrrr.
anamnesis

Ah, the good old guess the noise problem. Fan hitting radiator shround, or debris in there? Otherwise somewhere else and noise being conducted into engine bay? Given your rusty manifold have you checked the rest of the exhaust system for loose heatshields/clamps/baffles/whatever?
AdrianR

Following Adrian's thought, could it be from the exhaust manifold or gasket starting to go, in my experience (IIRC?) the gasket can give an odd metallic sort of sound that's not always quite regular with the engine revs. Hose to ear, softer and less hazardous than screwdriver.

Timing chain?
Nigel Atkins

All good suggestions Adrian/Nigel.

I intend to spend/waste time this morning following those. I'm not hopeful. And yet I have that gut feeling, that it is actually bloody obvious, even though I can't see it.

Forgot to update on the exhaust manifold.
anamnesis

I once had a rattle, or rather the car did, that I was absolutely convinced was related to the dashboard or the steering column cowl. It was a light buzzy, tinny sound not dissimilar to what you describe Anam. It seemed to eminate directly from the centre of the steering wheel. It went on for months untraced despite concerted efforts to eliminate any possible 'looseness'. Then one day after replacing the TREs it just stopped. The source of the cure still doesn't seem anything like one would expect of the sound that was so annoying.
GuyW

Ah, so I need a bit of lateral thought Guy. I'm struggling to get out of this particular box. Lol.
anamnesis

Drive belts can make some very weird noises at times, might be worth a try with the belt off-- but being a little Ford my money might be on a broken bendix spring on the starter motor--
William Revit

Cheers Willy. I'll check those. Hadn't thought about a broken spring, esp' in the s_motor.
anamnesis

And here's another interesting conumdrum.

I seem to be doing more now, than I did at 'work' before I retired years ago; and I was always busy at work.

What with the cars, the house, the garden, etc, I never bloody stop.

I read yesterday, that due to covid, thousands took early retirement or the like. This is causing labour shortages, to the extent that some employers are offering incentives and begging people to come back.

Maybe I'll go back to work for a bouns, and a rest. 😅😅.

anamnesis

Well I now know where the noise is, but not what it is.

How's this?
My drive faces downhill away from my garage. There's a smalI 'step' up, to enter my garage. I put the car up on ramps at the front, with my rear wheels just in my garage, facing downhill for extra crawling space. Crawled around everywhere. Noise gone. Nada. Now't

Then it twigged. I hadn't had the car on the drive facing downhill for ages. Turned it around, noise returned. Up on ramps, facing up the drive, noise got worse. It only makes this noise -- like a hollow sounding indecipherable morse code, when the car is facing uphill on my drive. That explains why I haven't noticed it on the level in my garage.

Under it again, I tied it down to the back end of the sump, but echoing all around the car.

Right where my screwdriver blade is, something is tapping an irregular manic beat. But only when facing uphill. The oil pickup is in the front bowl, can't be that.

It wasn't making this noise before I had the engine out for the speedi sleeve fix on my rear oil seal. Have I left something in there? Has a lump of piston dropped off?

Bugger, bloody engine out again, sump is a bastard to get off in the engine bay.







anamnesis

These are the last pictures I took before putting the sump back on, after fitting the speedi sleeve.

Nothing to see here. So I can only assume, something has come loose. But what? I didn't have any caps off. I'm baffled. Only thing I can think of, is a lump has come off the skirt of a piston, and is getting banged about. But why only when facing up hill?

It's a mystrery until I pull the engine.

Meanwhile, what's your best guess peeps?







anamnesis

What happens when you (or an assistant you trust) press the clutch with the car facing uphill? If that changes it then could be too much crankshaft end float. No idea why that would be linked with your seal replacement though. Try draining the sump or dissecting the oil filter to see whether there is any metal in it?

I wonder if your Devon buyer is reading this? :)
AdrianR

Endfloat? I suppose I can't rule it out. I'll do the clutch check tomorrow. Seems unlikely as something is rattling irregularly on the bottom internal face of the sump. Imagine something metal loose in a washing machine drum, bouncing around at random. Whatever it is, the sump has to come off to either get it out, or fix it.

Is he reading this? I doubt it, but I can't flog it like this anyway. It has to be fixed.
anamnesis

It sounds reminiscent of the 6 cylinder Vauxhall (Cresta, I think) my old man had with an odd random rattle. That turned out to be a maincap bolt (stud?) sheared and dropped down, but couldn't go anywhere as it immediately hit the sump which was very shallow at that point.
Going by where you're pointing with the screwdriver maybe No.4 maincap?

But that doesn't explain the uphill vs downhill thing.

Is it possible your oil pickup is loose at the union on the pump end and swivelling back and forth, so that it's chattering against the back of the sump bowl? The vibration when running might make it swing whichever way gravity pulled it.

The Vauxhall survived by the way and even if it is the same problem I reckon the 5 bearing Ford would likely survive it. Tough little things IIRC.

Just wild guesses... anyone else want to have a go?
Greybeard

What's the dipstick arrangeent on a Ford? Could it be bent and rattling/ catching on a moving part - crank / big end / - ?
GuyW

Yep, all possible. The dip stick is at the front, but I'll pull it out and run the engine just to be sure.

I haven't got the foggiest. But I'll be really pissed off if I've done something daft, like left something in the crankcase. 🤣🤣.
anamnesis

Willey could be right about the Bendix - and a rattle there could fit with the uphill- downhill, and sound like it's at the back of the sump. Checking there must be easier than sump removal?
GuyW

Or maybe a foreigner floating around in the bellhousing, With the engine turned off have a look through the gap between the bottom of the ringgear and the bellhousing and check if there's something sitting there like a stray nut-bolt---If there's something there you should be able to get a piece of wire and wiggle it over to the starter motor side (there's room there on that side) and hook it out---
And
Just remembered, When you fit the starter motor you have to make sure it fits through the hole in the tin plate properly too-If you don't and the starter dangles on one bolt while you fit the other one (2 on some) it can fit up wrongly and push the tin plate inwards which can touch against the flywheel if it's bent far enough, your's looks ok in the pic in the other thread but if you're going to pull the starter out for a look it'd be a good time to check the plate-
William Revit

Yep I did check the starter Guy. Sadly it's not rattling. The screw driver blade in my picture points to where the sound, and feel, of the rattle is against the sump. A wood rod against my ear, at that point, is loud and I can feel it through the sump.

The bowl is very shallow there. Something must be trapped in there, and not able to fall into the lower part of the sump. Whatever it is, is in the sump, and it has to come off, with the engine out.

A job for next week probably, unless I suddenly get enthused. 😅😅

Edit. Yep checked that Willy. Removed lower plate. Nothing in the bellhousing.

It's def' in the sump unfortunately. As you say, something foreign, unless something not vital has come adrift.
anamnesis

When I say shallow, it's not 'that' shallow, and it's sloped too. Maybe that explains the drive slope direction.

On the flat, whatever it is, is trying to fall away from whatever is hitting it (web, or cap bolt?). But point the car uphill, and the sump rear slope is less, so the foreign object falls back towards whatever rattles it around.

Just guessing of course. Good game, good game.

Thanks Brucie lol.









anamnesis

I can’t remember if a magnet works ‘through’ a magnetic material (assuming the sump is some sort of iron/steel) but if it did could you waft a strong magnet about and see if you pick something up that you could then pull towards the deeper sump?
timmyk

A magnet. Great idea. Thanks.

Didn't think of that, and yes, steel sump, and yes, it will work that way, IF, nothing is trapping it, from falling down to the lower section, which I think it must be.

But worth a try before lifting the engine.
anamnesis

Ahh ha---I think I know what you've got going there-
Because the well is at the front of the sump, the rear half is flatter and with the front of the car up oil is accumulating in the rear shallow part of the sump and the noise you are hearing is the crank whacking the oil and whipping it around, I've heard it on 6 cylinder cars with longer sumps but they have to be running for a while to build up the oil level enough to do it. The first time I heard it I thought the car had a bigend bearing rattling away at idle----------possible ?
William Revit

Yes, possible I guess. But odd that I never heard it before in 7 years. And I have definitely had the car facing uphill on my drive at idle that way before now.

What you say about the oil though is dead on. It's one reason they leak oil out of the rear of the sump gasket and oil seal if both aren't pretty well perfect

When I had the sump off I did tests. I filled the sump to the dip stick marked height with water. On the level, the water was below the shallow section. But at the angle of my drive, the water flowed into the shallow section. As you say, that must make it get stirred around by the crank.

But this sound I've got, is 'harder' than that, and pretty localised to where my screwdriver blade is in that picture.

You've got me doubting now though, if I should pull the sump. Lol.

I'll get under it again for another listen. I'll maybe drop the oil level to minimum, and see if it changes anything.
anamnesis

Uphill on my drive, simulating the exact angle the sump sits in the engine bay, with the car facing uphill. And with the sump level, with the blue tape showing the dipstick full oil level.

The magnet gives me an idea.

If the object is ferrous metal, and sitting in that shallow section, then facing the car uphill, maybe before I run the engine I can use the magnet to drag the object forwards and hold it there, with the magnet stuck to the sump.

If when I run the engine, the noise is gone, then it must be a loose object, now held still and away from whatever rattles it. If it still makes the noise, it must be oil getting hammered.

BUT, what if the object isn't ferrous? Then I'm none the wiser, as it could be oil or still a foreign object.

Edit, nope the baffle plate is solidly welded to the sump, not loose at all. I checked that carefully to make sure it was, before I put the sump on again. And the noise, and vibration, is DEFINITELY in the shallow section; that much I AM certain about.






anamnesis

Anybody got a USB endoscope? Are they any good? It may be worth me having one anyway.

With the oil drained, I can possibly get a light probe in there trough the drain plug hole.

Think it would be worth a try?

At the very least, Willy's suggestion of a bit of wire, but up into the shallow section of the sump, might reveal something caught.
anamnesis

To try and describe the noise the crank hitting the oil makes, I'd say a deepish sort of noise like what you'd get nocking the plastic end of a large plastic handled screwdriver against the sump, sort of a muffled kloonk kloonk doonk doonk doonk noise -- if that's a word, and also a slappy oil noise with it --
William Revit

Yes, could be like that. It's a hollow kind of sound, echo-ey, empty oil drum type clatter, but irregular.

Would the oil slap sound increase and fall with rpm?

This noise seems to stay about the same beat, only increasing a little with rpm, which is weired in itself,
anamnesis

Check this out Willy et al.

You know what a 711 crossflow is? Same bottom end as the precross kent engine essentially, but has a 5 bolt crank and a proper oil seal.

Mine is a precross kent, but with a later 5 bolt crank installed, to install the proper rear oil seal, instead of a rope and scroll seal.

Now keep in mind that I do not recall hearing this noise, until after I put the speedi sleeve on the crank, to stop the oil seal getting chewed and giving me an oil leak.

Guess what the bloke in the following link did? He put in a new crank rear oil seal in a 711, and then he had a noise. He never found out what it was, despite stripping it down again, in case he did something wrong. After driving it for a while, the noise just went away.

https://www.buysellcortina.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/45599-711m-crossflow-noise-help/

My noise isn't quite the same, but there are similarities. I've only done circa 10 miles since doing the oil seal, because I've been doing paint and other stuff to it.

If I get it up on ramps again, and press the sump exactly where the noise is greatest, if it's a lump of something, that should make it worse shouldn't it?

I'll try.



anamnesis

I'm almost convinced, but-?
Bit hard from half a world away
Actually I'm going to get the world map out and see where dead opposite is-
William Revit

If it's a loose something on the shelf of the sump. Emergency stop? Going down a steep hil. How good are the brakes?
GuyW

Correct my typo. 6 bolt crank. 5 main bearing.

Brakes are surprisingly good. lol.

Here's my plan. Sump plug out oil drain.

Wire coat hanger up and into back end of sump, see if I can at least jiggle/rattle whatever is in there, if anything.

Look at these pictures, it would have to be something pretty big to be caught in there, since the crank caps don't touch the sump. So as I move the rod caps out of the way by turning the engine, if there is anything there, I should be able to hook it.

If there's nothing in there, Willy must be right, oil slap.

Edit.
Pictures from when I first rebuilt the engine in 2017. Spedi sleeve in 2021.







anamnesis

Anam,

I have a USB endoscope and find they work quite well. They won't focus very close up but I would expect will work fine for poking around in your sump. They have a ring of LED lights around the camera so illumination shouldn't be an issue. At around £9 delivered when I bought mine I don't think you can go to far wrong.
David Billington

Thanks David. Ebay? Anything I should look for in particular?
anamnesis

I've made a sound recording. It's a WAV file. Is there anyway to upload this so you can all hear it? -- Should you so desire. 😄😄😄.

Anyway. Confirmation, pressing clutch doesn't remove the noise.

It's almost like a burbling noise.

Increase rpm, only slightly increases noise rate, but it does become a little more 'intense', with raised rpm.

Oddly, the noise is hardly audible at all, if at all, when the engine is cold. Loudest when the engine is fully up to temp.

With the engine fully hot, facing uphill on my drive, and the noise very clear, driving into my level floored garage, and the noise stops completely.

Enough for today. Turned cold and it's going to rain. Tea time.









anamnesis

Earlier I said,
"And yet I have that gut feeling, that it is actually bloody obvious, even though I can't see it."

Then later Willy, you said,
"the noise you are hearing is the crank whacking the oil and whipping it around, I've heard it on 6 cylinder cars with longer sumps but they have to be running for a while to build up the oil level enough to do it."

And yesterday I confirmed,
The noise is hardly audible at all, if at all, when the engine is cold. Loudest when the engine is fully up to temp. And driving into my level floored garage, and the noise stops completely.

It HAS to be oil.

If something hard like a lump of metal, was moving around and being hit with a rod end, I'd have a dent or dozen in my sump by now. By now, it would have ended up directly under a rod or web, and been hammered squarely.

I haven't checked yet, but I think there may be too much oil in the sump. I think I've over filled it. It would make sense. Normally, even facing uphill, the shallow end of the sump is still deep enough, and it slopes back towards to main bowl sufficiently to keep the oil draining and from being hit by the crank webs and rods.

But not if an innocent bystander puts in too much oil. 😉.

That's my working theory, which my gut says will become established fact, and my enthusiam for taking the engine out says, I bloody hope so. 😅😅.

What a dip stick. I'd better check the actual dip stick. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

anamnesis

Interesting, but if you gently rotated the crank by hand with the correct amount of oil in and on a level surface would the crank journals actually dip into the oil? I presumed not. If they did, to any depth, then the loading on the engine would be quite considerable. But when rotating at speed the oil would all be whipped up everywhere and then there would be oil surge as well.

I have several A series in line engine dipsticks all marked at different lengths. I had to check and calibrate one for my engine by putting in the specified oil quantity but there seem to be various rather vague amounts quoted which adds to the fun. There must be a science to it
GuyW

I haven't been out to the garage to confirm things yet Guy. But, on the level, no the oil isn't deep enough for the dipping you describe. Facing uphill though, the oil floods rearwards, and if there is actually too much oil in there, then mystery solved, as the flooding to the shallow area will be deeper.

Your dip stick mark comments are pertinent too. There are 4 different sticks for kent engines, and 2 different dip stick tubes in the front covers. This may well be a factor. 😉.

anamnesis

Well the moral of this story is,

We all need a Willy. 😁.

Thank you for suggesting oil slap as a cause Willy.

If you hadn't, I wouldn't have thought of it, and would have taken the engine out, the sump off, found nothing, spent 30 quid on a sump gasket set, and put it back together none the wiser, and probably still with the unfathomable noise.

I looked at my dip stick (more to that story), and drained out enough oil to read minimum on my stick. Ran it up to hot, facing uphill on my drive.

Noise gone.

Drained out all the oil (except filter oil). Used an 'accurately' marked jug to refill the sump to the 6.25 imperial pints that should be in there.

Tommorow, I'll run it up to hot, and see if the noise has returned, and accurately measure the amount of excess oil that I didn't put back in.

Wrong or right dip stick? Right dip stick, bad full mark on it? Wrong sump? Not sure yet.

Or, is it back to strawberries. In this case, strawberry fool? 🙃🙃.

Well at least now, I know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. 😁😁

anamnesis

I'm always amazed at how we always jump to the conclusion that it's the worst possible thing wrong and it turns out to be the simplest. Good job.
Martin

Does your 6.25 pints allow for an unknown amount of residue oil left in the engine from draining?

If 6.25 pints is dry fill (excluding oil filter) then adding that amount to a wet engine must be over 'book' fill so already a small excess.

I always fill my midget to 4 fifths on its dipstick or it wastes the last fifth but it happily sits at 4 fifths until the next service unless used to attack mountain roads.

I take the dipstick the same way as dual gauge, ignoring the marks and just look for usual positions.
Nigel Atkins

Very good question Nigel. I don't know exactly how much was left in the engine after draining (other than the filter). That occured to me too after I filled it, and I can't trust my dip stick as I'll explain later. So I'm going to drop that 1/4 pint back out, as I have no idea how much it needs to 'tip it over the edge' into oil slap territory.

Yep, I did immediately assume the worst. From a few feet away, it sounded like hollow metal, clanking around outside the engine. That didn't worry me, but when I located it to inside the sump, I could imagine a lump of metal suddenly causing £££££'s worth of damage.😅😅. But as you say, turns out to have a simple fix; happily.

But I've just never heard of it before. I know about the consequences of putting in too much oil, including oil getting whipped up into a foam. But I've never heard/read about it causing this odd noise and banging. Left too long, it must do damage somewhow I reckon; -- wouldn't it?
anamnesis

anam--
Nice sunny day here today and decided to give the elan it's last blast in the countryside before tucking him away for winter, so bit of a quick checkover and away.
While I was blasting around i thought of the different sumps, dipsticks and dipstick tubes on these engines--
No proof at all but i reckon, although there are several different sumps, several dipsticks and tubes, I'm thinking they probably all end up running the oil level the same distance below the bottom of the engine block
Got the lotus book out when I got home and there are a few different sumps from flat sides to bulged to eared type with trapdoors like mine but the interesting thing was that they all run the same dipstick and tube--(the dipstick is a 105E Anglia stick) meaning the top of the oil is exactly the same distance down from the engine block regardless of oilpan choice---and possibly the same from Anglia onwards.
The Escort stick and tube are both shorter
If you happen to have an Escort stick in a car with the dipstick at the front then the oil level will be way too high--
Decided to get some measurements for you--off the elan but should be the same for all front oil well pans
The dipstick tube leans at a slight angle---so measuring from the top of the tube down in line with the tube to the bottom gasket face where the pan bolts up measured as close as I could get it standing on my head at 100mm--Then measured the stick from the mark where it sits on the top of the tube -to the full mark-225mm
Therefor from this I would say the oil level should be 125mm below the bottom of the engine block measured at that slight dipstick tube angle
Maybe you could check what you've got against these--
willy
William Revit

Thanks Willy. I forgot you had an Elan. Nice, and very handy for this discussion.

Ok, I checked. My stick from notch to official full mark measures 124mm near as.

The tube is about 100mm above, same as yours.

Forgot to add. Wire coat hanger, with small hook bend on the end, up through the drain plug hole, didn't find anything to hook out or rattle around; as expected, happily.

I ran it up, got it hot, on the slope, and noise greatly reduced. Took a bit more oil out, almost impossible to hear that noise. But it's a bit arbitrary, as there are steeper hills than the slope on my drive.

And yep, just as I feared, apart from a falsely marked stick, I somehow overfilled it to the tune of just over a pint (imperial).

Mine's a mongrel engine. A 120E 6015 , 122E engine number, GT engine. But it has a crank from a later 2731 6015 block. Plus it has a sump, with bulging sides, that someone removed the central internal oil surge baffle from, to clear the older central oil pick up position. (I reinstated the correct baffle for this block). Not sure what that sump is off, but it's not original to this engine.

It's got a 105E-6752 dip stick.

Somewhere along the way before I owned it, someone must have got confused and put an additional mark higher up on the dipstick. Just about a pint higher, on level ground. Why I don't know. But I knew the mark was wrong.

However, after I did the speedi sleeve, I measured out the oil as I always do, but later must have checked it against that wrong mark, and bunged some more in.

That's my best guess as to how that much extra oil got in there.

Mia culpa. 😁.

A question. On average, how much oil would remain in all the galleries and bearings etc, with just a hot sump drain?







anamnesis

my dipstick is 105E-6752B and hasn't got that top mark
I believe the difference between the two is yours has a round single finger handle where mine (B) has a longer ovaled two finger handle-?
Sounds like you've got it sorted though-good stuff
On the dry fill v service refill question, there's no hydraulic lifters or anything to think of or not many places for oil to hide but there'd be some in the pump, oil gallery, crankshaft and a bit left in the bottom of the pan, so as a guess i'd say 200-300ml (half a pint) at the most
William Revit

Yep, just a single finger loop on my stick. So two loops and you get a special 'B' designation. Ford were a bit nuts methinks. Lol

This is the Consul Capri Ford should have, but didn't make. It belongs to the chap who built it. Twin DCOEs. One of only a few with a twink in it's eye. But this one is definitely the best.

They did make the mk1 Lotus 'tina soon after though. Wish I'd bought one when I could afford it. Lol

I wouldn't be selling my Capri if it was this one 😄.

Ok, half pint. Something to note.

We can get back to strawberries now.

Or maybe even Spridgets. 🤣🤣













anamnesis

Logically, which may not be a Ford attribute, the B and the two finger loop (sounds a bit coarse) would both indicate something else different about the dipstick, and not simply that it had a larger loop. Rather, the larger loop would be there to instantly identify it as differing in some other respect from the smaller loop one so that they didn't get muddled up.
GuyW

Your logic bears scrutiny Guy.

I did a bit of searching.

Have you come across this Willy?

https://englishfordparts.blogspot.com/2015/06/kent-engine-oil-dipsticks-timing-covers.html?m=1

I wonder if a previous owner of my dipstick, marked it for use in another engine.





anamnesis

The parts lists this

P/N: 105E-6752 ( 997 / 1198 / 1340 engines )
Length: 17" to 19"

So, which is it 17" or 19". That would really confuse things not to mention throwing off any readings.

Martin

I'll compare my stick to those measurements tommorow, and I'll measure the distance of the additional mark on mine, to the official mark.

Yeah, that must be typo. Can't be anything inbetween 17 and 19 inches. Unless it's the top bit above the notch where it doesn't matter that varies in length for some reason.
anamnesis

Different sump maybe? A 19" stick in the wrong sump might bottom out, and a 17" stick would be needed. Or is the longer one just to make it easier to find in the engine bay?
The critical measurements would be from the collar down to the full mark, not from the end of the stick to the full mark. Unless Ford dipsticks are designed to rest on the sump?
GuyW

The two dipsticks look very similar in the pic an. put up except for the handle length. I'd just stick to what you've got- and yeah they're well above the bottom of the pan-not touching
I've got a theory about your extra mark---
I'm thinking someone with too much time on their hands maybe has worked out how much extra oil is needed at oilchange time to compensate for an empty filter---so they fill up to the top mark with a dry filter and when the engine has been run the level magically drops to the correct full mark with the filter now full---or not,just a thought

I'm very happy with my highly developed two finger elongated dipstick handle which can be viewed, at your leisure in an.'s picture 2nd from the top-it makes oil dipping such a sensual and rewarding experience -----------LOL

willy



William Revit

A sensual rewarding experience. Lol.

Yep I'll stick with my stick.

I measured the additional mark, at 0.7" higher than the correct full mark. Over a pint extra.

Obviously not good, but if the whole sump was full bowl, I wouldn't have realised. It was only the slope of my drive that clued me.

But it must still happen to some extent, driving up hill, with the correct amount of oil in, as the oil is pushed back to the shallow area.

Ford must have known and not been worried, as this sump shape is common through a lot of Ford engines later on. Maybe it doesn't really matter.

I'm just very glad I'm not pulling my engine out on a fool's errand 😄

anamnesis

Well done to Willey for an accurate diagnosis too. And about as far away from the patient as he could be! 🤣
GuyW

👍👍👍 Guy.
anamnesis

Cheers Guy-
Just to put your mind to rest anam. i wouldn't worry about the oil hitting the crank on the road driving uphill, -with a few revs on there would be quite a lot more oil spraying around and staying up in the engine rather than being in the pan-
Here a bit back I did a race engine for a fella's Mustang and it had poor oil pressure right from the startup so we decided to pull the pan off and pressurize the oil gallery to try and find where it was going.
It was interesting, just a bit of a trickle from the bearings/crankshaft and similar from the cam bearings but there was a fair flow coming from up higher in the valley and running all over the cam which eventually turned out to be the problem-- So, just for laughs we started it up, pressurized but pan off--At idle it was probably less dramatic than what you'd expect with oil dribbling everywhere and running off the bottom of the crank as it spun around, then gave it a bit of a rev--as you do, unbelievable, the dribble changed into a thick mist of oil flying everywhere, interestingly a lot of it just blew up into the block/crankcase initially then when it had accumulated enough it started running back down the block and the wind from the crank threw it all out the rh side of the car like a fire hose--very educational,there was quite a lot of oil staying blown up in the block-Then when it went back to idle there was a dump of oil ran back down and dropped out the bottom--messy business, but good fun though--
End of useless info
willy
William Revit

So, how does a dry sump lubrication system work then? And I don't mean when you have forgotten to refill after doing an oil change! 😱
GuyW

A dry sump system isn't much different really- The spraying around oil eventually ends up in the pan whichever system is being used-
The main basic difference is that, instead of the sump acting as the reservoir for the oil pump there is a scavenging pump that pumps oil from the sump off to a reservoir which in turn supplies oil direct to the engine oil pump - The sump isn't dry as such but kept drained off by the scavenging pump--
The advantage of a dry sump system for racing is that a lower profile sump can be used for ground clearance with a drastically lowered car and the reservoir tank can be designed, usually tall and skinny, to completely eliminate any chance of oil surge/starvation-------
William Revit

Thanks for that explanation Willy. It's a terminology that I have heard mentioned for years and years and although never knowing exactly what it meant, I have also never questioned to find out.
GuyW

I'd love to have seen that sump off experiment Willy. 😆.

I wondered about dry sumps too. Now I know.
anamnesis

Willy,

Thanks for the "dry sump" explanation. Like Guy, I have heard, and probably used, those words many times and never really understood what they meant. In fact, any vague idea I had was completely wrong. The description of the sump off experiment painted a very graphic picture in my head - I wish I had been there to see that!
Ray Rowsell

The oil splashing is probably one of the reasons F1 engine builders take into account oil vapor in the sump as something that can "slow" engine acceleration down. If they do that, they must be running negative crankcase pressure. Which means a sealed system of some kind and a strong pump to get the oil out.
Martin

Good point Martin--wasn't really going to get too involved in this but--on our old Chev racer, and this was quite a few years ago ,so nothing new, we ran a crank scraper which caught everything just clear or the spinny bits, a windage tray to stop the spinny bits whipping oil up out of the pan and heaps of baffles in the pan to settle everything--You mentioned negative pressure in the crankcase--the old proven trick was to run your breather out into a venturi pipe in the headers- cheap and very efficient--
William Revit

Wasn't there a thread on oil sucking? 😉
Jeremy MkIII

Jeremy, are you still having those nightmares? You should get treatment for that.
GuyW

lol
William Revit

Willy,

I remember seeing those sumps with the windage trays and baffles. The venturi pipe in the headers is something new to me. I'm always surprised how creative people are to solve a problem
Martin

Hah Guy, the medication isn't working but the booze helps 😉.
ISTR reading many years ago, an article in Cars and Car Conversions about dry sumps. Terry Grimwood perhaps?
Jeremy MkIII

Something to experiment with





anamnesis

This thread was discussed between 27/05/2022 and 05/06/2022

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