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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - IOW Frogeye headlamp replacement

Quick check - sealed beam headlamp units are NLA for the Frogeye, yes? So I'm best off replacing a blown unit with a pair of modern halogen replacements. These would be the same 7" units as midgets and other BMC marques of the period, yes?

Are there any preferred (or shunned) makes and suppliers of such conversion headlamp units?

I've had a quick look in the archives and it seems I need relays wiring in too. There's a very helpful wiring diagram posted by Ken H so I'll crib off that.

Anything else I need to consider?

Thanks!
J Gibson

I found that Cibie were very good, a mate recommended them also, much better than Lucas I tried. You shouldn't need relays if you keep the wattage the same at the legal level as the current consumption is the same.
David Billington

Here's the Cibie/Valeo unit

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-x-CIBIE-7-ROUND-HEADLAMP-MAIN-DIP-H4-LIGHT-UNIT/230545956036

This one has no sidelight, but you can get it with.
Dave O'Neill 2

Wouldn't the standard 7" sealed beam headlights used on Spridgets be any good then?

As an example - http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_HEAD___FOG__MIDGET__201.html#l46

Same wattage as H4 bulb AFAIK on highbeam (60w).

Provided your wiring and switches are in good condition and you're not significantly increasing the load I've never seen the need for relays with all the extra wiring.

I fitted H4 (60/55w) units years ago without using relays and the light out of them is good and I've not had any problems with them and I use the car all year round.

If you fit new headlights, sealedbeam or H4, the fact that the reflectors (and possibly lenses) are new will probably give better light even if you use same wiring and switches (and bulbs).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel I looked on AH Spares and Rimmers (just the first few hits a search brought up) and they listed the sealed beam units as no longer available. Unless I was looking at the wrong items. Either way good to know they can still be had.

Saying that an upgrade would be welcome as mine are pishpoor to say the least, so I'm thinking of going for it anyway.

Glad to read relays aren't ordinarily necessary, so I might splurge a bit extra and get the Cibies rather than the cheaper units I've seen.

Thanks all.
J Gibson

They'd be referring to the original Frogeye sealed beam headlights, very early 42w/36w and later 50w/40w I've linked you to the later 60w/45w (I assume).

All wattage info from AH Sprite and Spridget Driver's Handbooks.

To get the most light out of whichever lights you have or chose to replace with you'd be best to clean up all electric connections from switches to bulbs through joints and include all earths.

On the other lights particularly the small rear lights I also always very occasionally clean the bulbs, reflectors and inside the lenses, it's surprising how much muck can get inside the lights and make them dimmer than they need be.

With these I'd also check the fusebox connections and even fuse(s) are clean.
Nigel Atkins

If anyone wants any sealed beams, I've got quite a few that I don't need. Free to a good home.
Dave O'Neill 2

If you want good lighting, you should probably do a check with a volt meter.

With the car running and the lights on, check system voltage at or near the generator/alternator, or possibly at the battery. Then, again with the lights on, check the voltage right at the connection to the headlight. See how much the difference is. If it is much, then you should benefit from relays.

The loss of light is not directly proportional to the voltage loss. I don't want to take the time to dig up the table right now, but for example, a 20% voltage drop might result in a 40% loss of light.

Charley
C R Huff

Id go to a good auto parts store, they will have sealed beams head lamps in stock...there just to common to be discontinued

Also they make sealed headlamps in various wattages, go for the most wattage they got and like nigel and charlie said give all your head light wiring conponets a a good cleaning esp the grounds and your good to go

Personally if you are going to be driving much with the head lights on and for extended periods of time ... then id do relays there not very expensise and easy to install and will almost garrentee the saftey and reliabity reliability of the head lamp electrical system... esp now that the replacment switches are little more then tin foil contacts aand the old good switches aregetting harder to find

Prop
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You could do Charley's test before and after checking and cleaning all the connections (and wiring).

The connections all need to be clean, secure and protected for best results whatever you use.

ETA: I should have put before starting at the original source, the battery, battery posts and connections making sure they're clean and secure and same for the main earths.
Nigel Atkins

Good point nigel
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I did Charley's test a few years ago with my Frogeye in original configuration. I did it with the motor at 2000 RPM. (voltage is higher then). I lost more than 3V. That gave a loss of > 50% of the lumen. The original cables are less than 1mm2. I replaced them for 2.5 mm2 cables (expensive!) without bullet connections. Of cause with fuses and relays!
I measured a big volt loss in the original switches after I only cleaned them. They are not made to handle this amount of current and even became warm in the original low (11.2V) Volt and current (35 Watt) configuration.
Yes, the Cibie Valeo's gave a BIG improvement. Another trick, not mentioned here before: I connected the dipped beam and highlight on the switch and I connected the city light (side light) and dipped beam.
It took me some time to get a fitting that could withstand the heat of the H7 bulbs.
I have seen a lot of Rally cars even with Cibie Oscar's that had less lumen than my configuration.

Flip
Flip Brühl

I must admit I didn't think or know about original Frogeye wiring and switches being so low and I assumed the IOW had more up to date wiring when they were made in the 1990s (had to look that up).

If the wiring and switches on Jordan's IOW are so low then relays will be needed but if the wiring and switches are up to the same at my 1973 car standards then relays won't be needed.

If the sealed beam units originally fitted were already the later 60w/55w then that would beg the question of why they appear so dim, possibly a wiring/connection/switch issue.

I can't remember now but isn't the wattage printed on the back of the sealed beam unit so taking one out might answer its existing wattage - Dave might be able to tell us (me) from his collection.
Nigel Atkins

The sensible approach is to fit standard H4 reflectors and use led bulbs like these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222199186381

They are significantly brighter than even an H4 and draw less current. The lighting pattern is identical to the H4 because the LEDs are in exactly the same place as the H4 filaments.

At 40€ a pair, they are the best value for money of all the ones I have searched around.
Dominic Clancy

Over here its actually illegal to change to led bulbs at the moment. The only way you can use them is if you replace the whole light unit with one specifically designed for leds.

Trev
T Mason

Trev, where did you see that?

Bear in mind Jordan's car is classed as 1964.

I'm all for LEDs but two things to bear in mind about LEDs are that they tend to show up faults in wiring/connections/switches and they need to be reliable some of the cheap ones don't always seem to be.
Nigel Atkins

I have the feeling that I read somewhere that we weren't allowed to use LEDs as replacement lamps as Trev remarked, but I think it applies only to headlights and elsewhere on the car you're fine. Am I right on this? Can't remember where I saw it and have no idea why we're not permitted to fit them. All else being equal they make sense to me.

So far my experience of LEDs is that they seem to be reliable devices, as diodes in general seem to be. I have been using them in my house for years and have yet to have one fail, despite buying the cheapest I can find.

There are arguments for and against on the relays question. As Nigel rightly says if the wiring and switchgear are in good condition they shouldn't be necessary - if they were the factory would have used them - but if the switches in particular are past the first flush of youth there is merit in fitting relays I think, simply because they reduce loads on the switches and dramatically reduce resistive losses. If the stalk switchset in my car died I could not replace it directly as it is no longer available.

Crucially though they give the opportunity for much better circuit protection, especially if you take the very sensible option of combining them with individual fuses for each lamp which the factory didn't think necessary. It's such a simple and inexpensive mod that I think it's a no-brainer, and there is no doubt at all of the increased efficiency of the lights. As Charley says the reduction of light yield is not directly proportional to voltage drop and incandescent lamps are madly inefficient anyway, with typically well over 90% of energy output lost as heat.

I respect Nigel's view as always, but I'm inclined to disagree gently with him here. Where I do agree with him 100% is on the value of cleaning connections to minimise resistance and protecting them from corrosion. That alone can make a huge difference.
Greybeard

Nigel, its been flagged up in several places over the last few months. My understanding is that it applies to all lights not just headlamps. I gather that the reason is that it can cause scatter in some light units, causing glare hence the reason they have to be in a purpose built new unit. I think but am not sure that the units have to be E marked too. The last thing I read somewhere was that it is illegal not only to fit them but also to supply or sell them. I also seem to remember that someone thought it was just a case of the law not keeping up with new technology but the scatter thing would suggest not.

Trev
T Mason

Many of the cheap LED headlamp bulbs have no regard for the correct placement of the LED and cause immense glare, and a very strange light pattern when fitted.

The ones I reccommend are different to the majority in that the LEDs are positioned in exactly the same place in the headlamp unit as the high and low beam filaments of a standard bulb. This means that the lens of the headlamp can do its job as designed and the prisms direct the light to avoid dazzling oncoming drivers.

But they are a lot brighter and draw less current than the pathetic efforts of a sealed beam (a sealed beam doesn't throw much light at all, and if you are travelling in an unlit area at 50MPH, it's probably not even lighting your stopping distance on low beam!)

So I suspect if your wiring can cope with the sealed beam units, the LEDs will be no problem at all.

As to the legality in the UK, I would check with the guy who sells them.....

Dominic Clancy

Ah now that rings a bell Trev. The "E" mark. That seems to be because E marked LED bulbs have an integral lens which is part of the glass envelope, presumably preventing scatter.

Standard headlight bulbs do too in the form of a reflective surface at the the end to direct the light onto the main reflector, which focuses the beam, preventing scatter or glare.

I admit I thought E marked LED bulbs were okay for sidelights and a straight swap in the original light fitting. I don't *think* a complete new light fitting is needed, just that the replacement "bulb" is E marked, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Greybeard

I didn't realise the original frogeye bulbs were lower wattage, when I got mine they were the common higher wattage sealed beams but didn't work that well so I rewired the car from scratch and fitted H4s, a big improvement. Having said that I know that the standard sealed beams with the wiring in good order can work well as my Austin A40 Farina had the same sealed beams as the frogeye and I felt no need to upgrade them as the light output was far better than in the frogeye.
David Billington

But is your MOT guy going to notice... i live by the code of "its only illegal if you get caught" and thats worked pretty well for the most part when dealing with red tape and stupidity


Here when they inspect they just throw the lights on if they see 2 lights on the wall they hit the high beams and back off... maybe 5 sec in total

Wouldnt that be the same over there with your MOT

Prop
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Grey,
no need to be gentle nothing wrong with a different opinion.
Nigel Atkins

So is this list out of date then?

Below is a brief listing of the cut off dates after which all lamps must have approval marks and that currently means using approved filament bulbs carrying that approval.

. Front side lamps - 1st January 1972
. Rear side lamps 1st - January 1974
. Brake lamps - 1st February 1974
. Direction indicators 1st April 1986
. Headlamps dip/main beam - 1st April 1986
. Front fog lamps - 1st April 1986
. Rear fog lamps - no cut-off date so always need approval marks(??)
. Reverse lamps - 1st April 1986
. Number plate lamps - 1st April 1986

As an example on my 1973 car only the front side lamp bulbs would need an E mark (I don't have rear fog lights), have I got this right?

As for dazzle, well, as soon as we (fully?) leave the EU regs there could be a lot of new cars that need to change their headlights as a minimum, some rear lights and DRL too.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I'm not sure if it is the "E" mark that leds need. Whether it is or not I think it still applies that the light unit needs to be purpose made for them. I think that it is something that needs further looking in to. From what I understand they may not fail an MoT so it is hard to see how it can be enforced anyway. It seems to be yet another of these daft laws where the MoT and the Construction and Use Regs differ and it seems that the Regs are the issue in this case.

I dont know why it has come to light these past few months but it appears to be cropping up more and more in the classics community so something must have happened to somebody I guess. The last thing I read about them suggested that it could invalidate your insurance but I find it hard to believe that an assessor would notice such a thing. That raises another point, that in the real world who is going to check that your vehicle complies with all the C and U Regs anyway?

Trev
T Mason

I'm told the vintage (pre war) chappies are very keen on LEDs as you can have a modern light output without overloading puny dynamos or ancient wiring.
AdrianR

Hi Trev,
thank you for the heads up on this subject after a quick search in the wrong direction I gave up and tried another tack and fell straight on this which is in plain English and "(Information correct as of January 2017)".

The article plugs the gap in my mind about the 1986 regs in that there are stated required wattage -" ... The DfT also advises that:
“There are also requirements for minimum power for certain lamps… LEDs… would be unlikely to meet these requirements.”"


From article -
"6. I drive a classic car and the headlights are very dim, compared to modern vehicles. Is there an exception for classic vehicles? Due to its age, my car does not have to comply with Type Approval.
Sadly, there are no exceptions for older cars.
Yet, it is correct that British Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 specifies dates before which lamps and light sources do not have to be Type Approved. However, newly manufactured bulbs must comply with the current regulations, regardless of the age of vehicle to which they are fitted.
The DfT advised GEM that, as LEDs are not mentioned in the UK regulations, this means that they are not permitted, unless they comply with European legislation, which they cannot. The DfT also advises that:
“There are also requirements for minimum power for certain lamps… LEDs… would be unlikely to meet these requirements.”

(Information correct as of January 2017)"

http://www.motoringassist.com/motoring-advice/news/fit-led-lighting-car-legally/
Nigel Atkins

Note -
"The DfT advised GEM that, as LEDs are not mentioned in the UK regulations, this means that they are not permitted ..."

The sooner we leave the UK with its silly laws the better. :)
Nigel Atkins

As I have a car older than 40 years there is no MOT needed here in Holland. So I am very interested in LED's. In fact I do have LED,s everywhere in the frog but not in the headlamps. Do all the LED bulbs fit in the original Sprite H4 Cibie-Valeo reflectors and the metal housing or do I have to look for shallow ones?

Flip
Flip Brühl

Some of the older designs have heat dispersal including ribbon to spread out so might need more space, I don't know about the latest designs.
Nigel Atkins

Flip - did you see the link that Dominic posted? You would need to use the H4 reflector bowls of course.

Nigel I'm always gentle :-)

I kinda wonder if the necessity of dedicated fittings to suit the LED lamps is to do with LEDs, like all diodes, being polarity sensitive? I can't offhand think of another sensible reason.
Greybeard

Greybeard,

I wondered about polarity sensitivity with LEDs as my neighbour fitted some LED running lights to his Morgan and he was wondering about damaging them if they were wired in reverse but I then remembered that the reverse breakdown voltage of LEDs is far higher than the forward voltage so no damage should occur from incorrect polarity, they just won't light unless there is some trickery in there to allow them to run either polarity.
David Billington

Nigel, that looks pretty clear then and kind of adds to the theory of legislation not keeping up with modern technology. The whole Construction and Use Regs seem to be a total shambles these days. I still cant see who is going to know though unless they pull the car apart.

Trev
T Mason

David you're right of course. I must admit I scratched my head a bit about the lamps I used in my kitchen because they were a straight swap for the GU10 halogens and didn't care which way round they were fitted. Then I remembered they were designed for an AC supply so the polarity is irrelevant. They rectify the supply internally.
Greybeard

Trev,
they'd easily tell if LEDs are fitted as they're much brighter than filaments. :)
Nigel Atkins

With car LEDs some are polarity sensitive others aren't, the ones that are polarity sensitive work as David has put, on when fitted the right way round and off when fitted the wrong way round but with no harm.

I know a couple of classic owners that use LEDs, on the interior only of course, the white/blue light LEDs just look wrong in classics to me but you can also get warm white, slightly yellowish, that to me look more suited.

I've only got Bayonet Cap LED bulbs in home no posh or more modern light fittings, they work very well but there don't seem to be any dimmer switches freely available yet for LEDs.
Nigel Atkins

Off topic, but for home use you can get dimmable LEDs now, I have some in my kitchen which replaced halogen GU10s.

They are a bit wierd, with a delay on initial start-up and significant change of hue at low levels, but for 5W vs 50W per bulb I can live with it.
AdrianR

Nigel, they are only brighter if you have them on!

Trev
T Mason

Trev,
they shouldn't need to pull the car apart to switch them on.

A lot of LEDs look brighter even when switched off. :)
Nigel Atkins

True, but bearing in mind the MoT thread and youngsters, they might struggle to find the switch as its not on the column.

Trev
T Mason

Trev

That my xontention also... who is going to know if you got it well hidden...i cant imagine the MOT man is going to feel up and down each wire inspecting each connection

Most likely he will be the same as hear, ... flip the head lamp on look at rhe wall dip the beams and look at rhe wall if both test work, then pass onto the next test


Like i said, its only illeagal if you get caught


Prop
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This thread was discussed between 30/06/2017 and 04/07/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.