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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Is it sacrilige ????

Well gentlemen and ladies. What I'm about to say may shock some of you, but I have no choice in the matter.

I've - perhaps - made one of the silliest decisions in my life. I bought a 70 MkIII midget full of rust. No problems I said - I can get new panels, pull it apart, respray it and that's a nice 2 years work.

BUT . . . there was the added problem of not having any "driving" gear at all. That's right, no motor, clutch, gearbox, tailshaft, carbie, (I could go on and on, but you get the picture).

No problems I said, surely original 1275's will be falling out of the trees over here in Australia. NOT SO !!!!!. Well, you can get them, as long as you put a second mortgage on your first born.

So, I've decided to still work on the body, but have taken a novel approach to the "engine" problem. And here lies the rub.

I'm going to put a Datsun A12S engine and gearbox into my MG.

Please don't recoil in horror, it's only until I can get a 1275 that only means the family doesn't eat for a couple of months.

I'm thinking that this has been done before, in fact I've heard a whisper that the dimensions between the two different A series motors is very, very similar.

Anyone done this? Any advice (please be nice)? Any pics?

Warren
w butler

As a matter of fact, it has been done, and it turned out well I cant remember who it was but its ...Wait for It..."In the archives" oh so sorry, mm-mm maybe about 2 years ago. the only issue was a mod had to be made in the bonnet for the air-cleaner, the great news is id look for one with a 5speed transmission might take a little cutting here and there to make it fit, but doable, and its much better then the rib case 4 speed that all midgets have and it has a rear seal that wont leak oil everywhere, not to mention the extra horses are always nice...the only problem??? after you have driven it for a while you may end up not going original BMC oil leakier with a 4 speed,

Another option that I always thought was really cool but we don't have any over here in the USA and not sure about the land down under is the "ford Kent X Flow", extremely sweet various sizes and the head is an 8 port head...4 carbs and 4 ports for the exhaust, and lots of hi performance parts and it looks just like a BMC 1275 A-series, definitely worth a look into.

Here is a link
http://www.burtonpower.com/technical_1/kent_crossflow.aspx

do keep us posted on what you do, we really love mod work here on the BBS

Prop
Prop

Nothing wrong with a engine swap, it's a Midget and people have always "improved" them!

Talk to Darren 2 litre frogeye, he's got a Zetec and type 9 in his Frog and it fits very nicely, I'm sure you'll be able to get those (Zetec and type 9 gearbox) easily down under.

AndyB
a borris

You're really starting from scratch, and the tub you've got is going need a lot of reconstruction time and money spent on it if you plan to start out with a Datsun transplant, but later revert back to original spec. Personally I'd be tempted to aim for something a little more heroic, and with an opportunity like this go for something more than just another run of the mill Sprite. Here are some interesting options:

http://www.britishv8.org/Other/MarkWarner.htm

The Jag is superb if a horsepower or two too far, but some of the others,notably the Miata and BMW, would make practical and realistic projects for similar time and outlay.
f pollock

Thank you very much gentlemen, there are certainly some knowledgeable members on this forum.

Thanks Prop, I will eventually get a 5-speed, but they are also scarce on the ground. I'm thinking of picking up the wrecked Datsun Sunny and just putting it "up the backyard" until I finish the body panels. Then I'll work out how to fit the motor - may have even souced a 5-speed by then.

Love the Ford Kent X Flow, so I'll also be keeping a look out for a Bargain there.

AndyB, I had looked at Mark's frogeye previously, but don't think I'm even in the same league as that. Although I am very envious.

You're right FPollock, I am really starting from scratch. Which may even turn out to be a good thing, as I have lots of room to trial fit any motors/gearbox combos. I'm afraid I'm anything from heroic, plus the cost of stuff "down under" sort of takes the fun out of "trying and discarding" mechanical stuff.

I'm going to do a search of the Archives and see if I can pick up any more pointers. I'll keep the forum informed.

In the meantime, please feel free to put in your two bob/two cents worth.

warren
w butler

Have you considered a K Series? What's the availability of those over in Oz? They really are a perfect engine transoplant, very well proportioned and whilst you need to do a certian amount of modifying to the engine bay, once it's in you'll never look back.
Rich Amos (1 Sprite 1 Midget!)

A 1.6 K is good for 125-130 bhp with reasoable air filter, exhuast and Emerald ECU; for a 1.8, you should expect up to 142 bhp (engines otherwise standard).

Lighter than the Aseries, too.

You have considerable expertise available in the Southern Hemisphere... www.mgparts.co.nz

Paul has done several KMidget conversions, for road and competition.

A
Anthony Cutler

You butcher :)

Seriously - you're saving this shell from the earth, why would anyone get upset about that?
Will Munns

Buy a Morris Minor 1000 and you get a complete set of running gear (minus a simple mod to the clutch throw arm and a shortened propshaft). It bolts straight onto the same original mounts. Gotta be the cheapest/simplest option?
rob multi-sheds thomas

Thanks guys

I was away trawling through the archives, so I've just read your replies.

K series aren't all that easy to source, but the Datsun engines are fairly plentiful. Except for the 5-speed gearbox.

Big hp is not a priority. In fact, with the weight of the car, it would probably be quite dangerous. Why have the hp if you don't use it ?????

Right on Will . . . let's save as many Midgets as we can?

I'll look up the NZ website and see what I can find.

IN THE MEANTIME

While trawling the archives I found quite a few threads on very similar conversions to what I am thinking of.

They all mentioned modifying the sump to clear the front support member.

Does anyone have any information, pics, or diagrams of this??

cheers
Warren
w butler

Rob, you surely have a moggy obsession! ;)

How's the Austin coming along? Are we likely to see you at Pencoed on the 10th?
James Ballard

Warren
Where abouts in NSW are you?
I move amongst a crowd who have no end of Spridgety bits and unlike the commercial outlets we don't consider them to be gold plated.
Email me direct if you like at username 'kimolosgroup' in the bigponddotcom realm.
I'm at the other end of a major rebuild of a 1973 RWA and may be of some assistance.
Mike Allen

As you have seen Warren, very few purists here and all of us enjoy "doing stuff" with our cars

Mike's idea above sounds like a good 'un

But if it's to be a Datsun, well whyever not?

I expect you may even find the elusive five speeder if you are lucky too

Go for it and welcome aboard
Bill sdgpm

As a 100% purist myself im not so fond on non-original parts in a spridget but thats only my humble opinion. ;)







Like Ant suggests, get in contact with the Walbrans and they can help you to either find a 1275+5speed if wanted or K engine with 5 speed(deep in your hart you know it makes sence!)Give in to the Darkforce Warren!! :)
Arie de Best

I got to agree with you completely Arie....As I friend, I want to help you walk that narrow path,

just send me that K- series with the NEW 5 speed you got, and you will once agian be walking in the light of the super rightous

To late for me, Ive sinned to much...I belong to the "Dark side".

Prop...Ill never join the "Pink Side" of triumph ownership...Prop
Prop

Thanks very much friends. I was afraid that the dark side was going to overwhelm me, so I've been fighting like crazy. Unfortunately I think I'm too weak to fight any longer.

By the way - which particular K Engine does everyone keep talking about. I see a couple of manufacturers produce K Engines, but don't know which is the favoured????

Warren the Dark
w butler

Rover K series, from MGF and others.

A
Anthony Cutler

James. Will be coming to the Pencoed show on Sunday with the Moggy, if it starts after 6 months in storage. (Why kid myself. Of course it will start. It's a Moggy, not a Midget!)

The Austin 7 has just acquired a set of Moggy hydraulic brake components to remove the awful cable brakes.


Back to Spridgets. I built 2 spridgets with Fiat/Lancia twin-cam 2000cc engines and 5 speed gearboxes. One had a standard bonnet and the other had an MGC fibreglass bulge in it. Nice power output and fairly lightweight components that were let down by headbolts made from Italian cheese metal. remove inner crossmember by slicing it off the floor from inside the transmission tunnel, slice 2 inches out of the passenger footwell and it will slot right in (ahem!)

http://www.spritespot.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=toomanyspridgets&id=rt_ly_e2
rob multi-sheds thomas

Waren, you philistine you! I for one would never dream of doing such abuse to a Spridget! LOL Go for it, plenty of drive lines around down under that should fit great. There are a number of small 4s that have been installed in Spridgets and fit pretty well. Toyota, Suzuiki, Mazda, and BMW engines have been used. Here are some links to those for your study. http://www.britishv8.org/Other/BobChartier.htm
http://www.britishv8.org/Other/BruceUchida.htm
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~roethler/index.html
http://www.ado13.com/dohczuke/dohc.htm
Most of those drive trains should be fairly common in Oz if you have any problems finding the Datsun and all come with matching 5 speed transmissions which really make the car great to drive. The addition of a 5 speed even to a stock Spridget is one of the best mods that you can make IMHO.
Bill Young

Red motor surely?
Clive Berry

Thanks for the comments people. The only problem I can see with K series engines is that the only seemed to come in front wheel drive cars.
Is there some sort of way to get a front wheel drive K series and convert it to a rear wheel drive?
w butler

Warren

K series has no problem turning it to in-line, unlike the Mini it has a conventional sump, flywheel and gearbox attachment so will go either way. They fit well in the Midget and there is heaps of experience in the UK with them. There are also commercially available kits such as the Frontline kit.

As Ant and Arie have noted above we've gone down that path (though not as many as Ant implies - only two!) and have done things a bit differently due to relative availabilites of gearboxes to go with the engine. The UK installations use the type 9 gearbox which is very rare here; we have used a Supra gearbox, which is much more common in NZ (& I think Oz). We also had some variations on engine mounts & mounting for our own particular situation.

Have a look at Frontline's website and also the BBS threads & archives under 16V K series Midget & MGB (a bit further down the main page from this Midget one).

Happy to help if you want any, our email is paulatmgpartsdotcodotnz
Paul Walbran

Thanks Paul, you certainly live and learn. Coming from Mokes and Minis I always assumed that an East-West just couldn't be changed to a North-South.

I know, assume (ass - u - me)but certainly not You.

I'll do a bit more research then. Like the idea of using a Supra gearbox (they are a BIT easier to find). If I get onto anything i will take up your offer of sending an email. Thanks for that.

I did email Frontline, and they replied that they can sell me the motor and gearbox for about $20,000 Oz????? I think that is what 8,500 quid is worth these days. That's without shipping.

Cheers
Warren
w butler

DIY for a fraction of that if you are handy with workshop gear, and still a very useful saving if you have to job the tricky bits out.

We have patterns for what we have done which we are happy to share, revised in light of lessons learned and evolving thoughts.

How easy/cheap are K engines in Oz?

Paul Walbran

This thread was discussed between 01/05/2009 and 13/05/2009

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