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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - LED headlights conversions now fail MoT

I picked this up off Paul Hunt's excellent mgb-stuff website. - 'Hammer and Spanner' section - http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/hammertext.htm

LED headlight conversions now fail MoT.

That bl**dy EU, er, no wait, this only come into effect January 2021, oh my gawd, who we gonna blame now!?

"Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp."

"4. Lamps, reflectors and electrical equipment
4.1.4 Headlamps - Compliance with requirements - Changed sentence from 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.' to 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp."
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/updates
Nigel Atkins

Good - Oncoming traffic with the blasted things blind me....
Oggers

You're thinking of modern cars or those with misaligned headlights.

Worst I had was when those self-levelling headlights were on new cars. A mate was driving, following, in daylight, in his wife's new Merc SLK and he flashed his headlights so I pulled over to see what was wrong, he wanted to know why I'd stopped, I think he must have just gone over a bump in the road.
Nigel Atkins

This seems to be doing the rounds a lot at the moment... I don't know why because it isn't anything new. LED retrofit have never been MOT "legal".

Or have I missed something? (quite possible)

Malc.
Malcolm

I've retained the halogens as rightly or wrongly, I understood the reflectors weren't designed for replacement HIDs or LEDs.
However every other bulb has been changed to LEDs, with dramatic improvements in indicator (especially dash repeaters), brake and front sidelight performance.
As our cars no longer need MOTs it's a bit of a moot point but you pays your money and makes your choice.
Jeremy MkIII

Malc,
er, yes and er, no.

For headlights as an example MGOC Spares were selling an LED compliant bulb (IIRC it was about 'E' marked bulb matching 'E' marked lens/reflector unit).

The wording before only had HID.

I'm sure you don't want me to go on about the other lights on these cars and what applies to which years.

Nigel Atkins

Jeremy,
yeap that was the thought and obviously the case for older headlight units at least. Then there was the increasing speed of development which meant what you heard down the pub on t'web could well be out of date info, on top of that some were referring to the cheap crap items that many insist on buying.

It's not just MoT, as Paul always reminds some insurance companies don't (didn't?) like (external) bulbs to be LED.

And you need to check for dodgy wiring, connections and earths, which LEDs can be more susceptible to, to prevent flickering lights before an MoT.
Nigel Atkins

Sorry, Nigel, re-reading I think I was a bit rude. I fully follow now. It has moved from grey area to very much black and white.

As I said it's come up a few times recently in other forums/FB etc. etc. To much internet outrage!! I thought uh oh... here we go again!

Your EU comment made me chuckle ;-)

Malc.
Malcolm

Malc,
you wasn't rude, I thought I was giving a lighthearted reply but as you know I'm not the best at writing, but I do know about being rude, many tell me so.

Glad you liked the EU bit, correlation (correct or not) is fun for most. 😁
Nigel Atkins

Cheers Nigel, hadn't considered the insurance aspect - should I tell them it's the headlights have been swapped from sealed beam to halogen?
Wonder where the changes from standard start? The brake pads and shoes no longer contain asbestos, the brake fluid is synthetic, the brake hoses are stainless steel braided, the brake lines Automec, the ignition system electronic, the engine oil is a higher specification than when new, petrol no longer contains lead, the indicator flasher unit is cheap Chinese sh#t etc etc (made the last one up but you follow my drift).
Jeremy MkIII

I've not properly looked into this, so this is a genuine question:

Is this not a matter that led bulbs should not be fitted into Halogen headlamp bodies because the glass lenses used are not designed to focus the scattered light from an LED bulb adequately. The obvious question would then be is it possible to produce a headlamp unit designed specifically for LED bulbs. The quote seems to be specific to not fitting LEDs into a Halogen headlamp unit rather than a prohibition against LED bulbs as such. (if they were, for example, fitted into a purpose designed and approved unit)
GuyW

Just because your car doesn't need an MoT doesn't mean it's ok to put LEDs in a reflector designed for filament bulbs. They have always been illegal, its just that it has been added to the MoT manual now stating they must fail them. If you do use them then your car is unroadworthy and that could have various ramifications. It only applies to headlights by the way.

Trev
T Mason

I’m with Oggers on this. When I look in my rear view mirror after being blinded by some haze of LED it’s usually a mid noughties Corsa or Lupo instead of a new Audi. Yes the new cars are still way too bright but apart from the odd flicker they are usually pointing in the right direction. A lot of these older converted cars seem to just blaze light out in all directions.

John Payne

Ģuy, to answer your question, yes it is legal to use leds if the light unit was specifically designed for them.

Trev
T Mason

ISTR that HID's had to have a washer system as part of the installation to avoid glare when dirty.

My SAAB washes the lights with the windscreen washers.
richard b

ETA: written before seeing other posts (wonder if this post will now fit in)

Jerry,
no I was referring to Paul saying with his insurer it was any LED light.

Even without MoT the vehicle has to be roadworthy and comply with all relevant regulations.

Insurers (underwriters) are people so like all people some have strange ideas, I'd guess most wouldn't blink at the idea of halogen headlights instead of sealed beam. But with LED bulbs some might, depending on the age of your model and requirements of the build year or currently, have to think about it and might reject them whereas others wonder why you've contacted them about it.

Ones where they allow or you already have a list of 'modifications' wouldn't worry (as long as it breaks no regs obviously).

Thing is some owners of cars can do stupid things and certainly can't be trusted with anything but straightforward and standard, if they slightly change something they might injury property or worst still themselves or others which can be very, very costly to payout for So they say no to a lot of things to all people or charge a very high premium to cover the potential risk.

A slightly uprated engine is obviously more of a risk than all of the piss-poor parts fitted to the car that whilst working could fail at any second.

Don't forget we still have H&S gone mad (well according to the likes of the pub chat, web chat, Daily (brain) Fail type newspapers.

I'm pretty certain the HSE are trying to take over MoT requirements and lots of other stuff, they're going to ban bent bananas as safety hazards, we should complain about this, it's outrageous.
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
already done the other way round.

There was already LED headlamp bulb(s?) made that complied with the Lucas 7" lens/reflector to MoT requirements, until this latest change.

FBHVC and others caught blindsided by this, I don't know.
Nigel Atkins

Unless I have misread this completely, LEDs don't result in a failure unless they are fitted to units that were designed for halogen bulbs. 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted......." Therefore units designed for LEDs should still pass an MOT.
Ray Rowsell

Ray, that is correct.

Nigel, your comment about LEDs that complied with old reflectors, I think is the opinion of the supplier rather than fact as it has always been illegal to fit them.

Trev
T Mason

There may be a loophole if you have an older car than ours in that the MoT manual says LEDs cant be put in halogen units. I have seen it suggested that whoever wrote it isnt old enough to remember older cars had filament bulbs before sealed beam and halogen came along. No doubt that will get corrected soon.

Trev
T Mason

Surely halogen would already be a conversation on our cars.
Nigel Atkins

Nobody is saying you cant have a halogen conversion Nigel.

Trev
T Mason

Trev,
my point was our cars originally didn't have halogen so may not be existing on the car.

And perhaps I should have put old style/design/pattern reflectors before.

I believe the person that wrote all this is from France or Germany, or perhaps Russia or China as there's no way in new UK it could be the responsibility of anyone from here (unless it's a Red, or leftie getting revenge).

I'll get Jacob William Rees-Mogg on this straight off, he's a real world sort of good egg,

Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Please confirm that your last sentence is tongue in cheek.
Bill Bretherton

Bill,
I was amazed that his full name only included one middle name.

If you briefly read up about his life you'll know I don't mean the real world that the likes of you and I inhabit but a real world so some other people. They really do exist, just as we can't really imagine their world I'm pretty sure they can't really imagine ours. But JRM is just the sort to straighten out any UK (British? English?) requirements, well to his understanding of what that is or means. His understanding would mean as much to me as all the talk about Game of Thrones but that's my fault for not being like him, he's truly amazing (at the very least).
Nigel Atkins

He seemed happy fish were rotting on the quayside because they were "British" fish. Ah well, must get back to cleaning my moat....
Bill Bretherton

Yes, because he's in touch with the people of this country he knows we don't eat those fish but they're in 'our' water so we're 'aving 'em (as he says when not in public).

"Mr Rees-Mogg said: “What is happening is that the Government is tackling this issue, dealing with it as quickly as possible, and the key thing is we’ve got our fish back.

“They’re now British fish and they’re better and happier fish for it.”"

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/jacob-rees-mogg-causes-outcry-4889217

You'll get me in trouble with all this thread drift!


Nigel Atkins

Re. LED headlights I think, due to their brightness, they should be properly designed with clean, precise beam edges, so that precludes retrofit halogens.
Bill Bretherton

Just had some info posted to the local MASC Whatsapp group.

Mr Gil Keane, the proprietor of Better Car Lighting - https://www.bettercarlighting.co.uk/index.php? - contacted his MP about this, and received the below response from the DfT.


Dave O'Neill 2

According to an article in last weeks Classic Car weekly, you cannot have LEDs in side lights and indicators either.
Paul Hollingworth

Guidance
MOT special notice 01-21: headlamp conversions
Published 19 March 2021

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/special-notice-01-21-headlamp-conversions/mot-special-notice-01-21-headlamp-conversions

How's this for a first draft.

Let me know of any spelling mistakes.

Nigel Atkins

Well Nigel, I wouldn't give you many marks for this bit:

"Light source and lamp not compatible’ only applies to vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986.

Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect."

The first paragraph seems to be that it is the date the vehicles were first used (-"used" could be ambiguous there as well)

The following paragraph suggests the relevant date applies to when the conversion was done, rather than when the vehicle was "first used"

Poor use of English, Nigel. Terminate his Consultancy contract, with immediate effect!
GuyW

So, as I now understand it, you CAN retrofit LED bulbs to vehicles built before 1986.
Bill Bretherton

I think you are correct, Bull. Though their poor grammar suggests that it's the conversion that needs to have been done before 1986 rather than the car being pre - 1986.
GuyW

Guy you should be a journalist you've taken things out of context of the MoT Manual as a whole.

I'd been distracted as I couldn't get the text and right wording to fit in something like - this exclusion excludes Oggers, Scotland, and my mate was having a lot of trouble getting the blue banner background right, he will mess with the contrast setting on the monitor forgetting he wears react to light lenses, I have to dim the ceiling light every time.
Nigel Atkins

Bull,
no, well not to as you've put your question, this only applies to converted halogen headlamp units for the MoT regs.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

I agree with Guy - the grammar is poor. It reads as if you CAN retrofit LEDs to a pre '86 car. I'm not doing it anyway so no longer care ;-)

Bull
Bill Bretherton

I havent had a chance to check but wonder if there has been any update to vehicle lighting regs as this makes no sense. Leaving aside the ambiguous grammar this only applies to the MoT, which the earlier letter points out is not relevant to a lot of older cars, but the reason is light scatter so surely that makes an old car that has been converted unroadworthy.

Trev
T Mason

Bull,
context.

Don't despair, brighten your world, you can fit LED bulbs to 7" Lucas style headlamps. Available to purchase today -

LED Headlamp Conversion Stella Lux QP472A - https://www.mgocspares.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.cgi?WD=qp472a&PN=MGOC_SPARES_Lighting_700%2ehtml
Nigel Atkins

Trev,
context.

Old car, what old car, how old, what headlights, what lens design and pattern.

Developed for 7" Lucas style headlamps a Stella Lux H4 LED conversion represents a technological breakthrough for classic car owners. I give you - https://www.mgocspares.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.cgi?WD=qp472a&PN=MGOC_SPARES_Lighting_700%2ehtml

Of course if the lenses are cracked and/or scratched an/or reflectors discoloured and/or flaking you could already be into light scatter (unlike those bobbing German prestige marque models of a few years back).

If so get some new lenses, or go to halogen H4 conversion - QPARTS H4 Headlamp Conversion - https://www.mgocspares.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.cgi?WD=qp472a&PN=MGOC_SPARES_Lighting_700.html

The world is your lobster.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I'm not thinking of changing anyway and will stick with the old sealed beam units for now.

Trev
T Mason

Ha ha! This is an interesting instruction to the MOT testers:

"Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect."

So turn up with a 1985 car with a rusted out chassis and no brakes and as long as it has an LED conversion that's ok, "they must not fail" it.

;-)
GuyW

Fair enough Trev, if all the electric connections to them are clean, secure and protected and the lenses not scratched or cracked and reflectors still bright and complete you can get a reasonable light out of them.

By recent experience I'd suggest checking and if required cleaning and protect the three-spade connector plugs and spades on the sealed beams as then they might burn a little brighter.
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
you don't understand

you need to turn up before Monday 31st March 1986 (as it was Easter Monday Bank Holiday).
Nigel Atkins

Indeed. Good to see they have finally sorted that much misused loophole.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 22/02/2021 and 19/03/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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