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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Lower Front Suspension

Several months ago I requested help regarding a high front end, after many helpful replies and changing tyres as suggested which has helped reduce the problem, the suspension has now hopefully settled after a previous restoration, the front could still do with being lowered by a few inches.

I seem to remember reading a few threads regarding simple lowering kits that appear to just require the addition of washers to adjust the height. That may not be a good description, but it sounded simple. The part that I have not been able to fathom out is which part of the suspension can be safely adjusted to lower.

This is no doubt straight forward to many, but not to me! Does anyone have any links to a breakdown or a photo which would explain which part can be adjusted with a lowering kit?

Photo attached of the problem midget.


Tim Lynam

the little "pan" below the coil spring is attached to the lower suspension arm by 4 bolts

to lower the front end easily, this little pan is lowered by putting shims between it and the suspension arm, and fitting longer bolts

the ratio of spacer to vehicle height is approximately 1:2 (for 1/4" of spacer, the car should sit 1/2" lower)

you can use ordinary washers, or buy aluminum spacers from any of the usual sources


hope this helps,
Norm
Norm Kerr

Is 'the little "pan"' listed as the spring seat on the Moss site Norm?
Dave Squire - Notts

Thanks Norm that explains nicely and the bolts look reasonably easy to get too once the wheel is off.

I believe you release two opposite bolts, replace with the spacers and new longer bolts, tighten and complete the other two. If there is anything to add or the above is not correct could someone please advise.
Tim Lynam

[quote]
The part that I have not been able to fathom out is which part of the suspension can be safely adjusted to lower
[/quote]

Safely, none, unless you have a full diameter spacer machined to prevent the bolts from being in shear under various load conditions.

I would advise a set of lowering springs before even considering those god awful lowering washers - common sense would tell you they arent fit for purpose and anyone who has fitted a spring will know the pressures being put on that pan in all directions aside from vertical.

Anyway, I have ranted about this before and I got told to shut up, but hey, wont be me driving it
PeterJMoore

Peter, I'd have to agree with you on that one. If you want to lower the ride height then change the springs.

Andrew
Andrew McGee

The other advantage of going for lowering springs is that they will be uprated, to provide stiffer suspension and less likelihood of bottoming out.


That said, I have run my car for the last 12 years with the front lowered by use of spacers, with no problems at all. It may not be the "engineers solution" but it does work well enough for road use.
Guy W

works for racing too.
David Smith

Swapping the springs sounds a much harder job, I have only driven about 250 miles in 6 months in the Midget, have any others had any problems with the easier option.

Peter thanks for pointing out the concern, as a non expert the last thing I want to do is make the car unsafe.
Tim Lynam

I've been using spacers for several years, and many thousands of miles. I have yet to encounter or see any indications of a problem forming. ... but there is always tomorrow.
Trevor Jessie

ditto all of the above, lowered springs, and stiffer, are the best solution, but in answer to the original poster's question about simple lowering, the spacers do work, as I had my car set up that way for about 15 years (I did use grade 8 washers as spacers, and grade 8 fasteners, just because it seemed prudent)

Peter is correct, making any changes to a suspension incurs risk, but since so many have done it this way, and for so long, it is apparently with relatively low risk, in this case.


Tim, to lower it like you described you do need to get a pair of looong bolts, fit them first, temporarily, as a way to gradually, and safely lower the spring (this also works well for removing the coil springs, though a floor jack can also be used, with some care and finesse).

Dave, it is item #12 in this link:
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=1662

You use two long ones to lower it far enough to insert the spacers and fasteners under the diagonally opposite pair, and then remove the long pair to finish the job. Keep a floor jack under the lower trunion as a safety measure.


Norm



Norm Kerr

Why not cut the springs... No heat, just a metal saw, or use those spring compressors

I have to agree if your going to lower the pan id use grade 8 hardware...and like peter, it dosnt sound safe, im no pailingtoligist but i can see where shear would be an issue

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

don't cut the springs! Unless you can pigtail the ends nicely again....

Not a whole lot more effort involved in changing the springs when you're doing spacers tbh.
Rob Armstrong

Thanks Norm, grade 8 bolts it is.
Dave Squire - Notts

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions.

So am I correct in assuming to remove the spring and replace with a shorter spring it is just a matter of replacing the short nut and bolts with 4 longer bolts and gradually slacken the new bolts until all tension released and the spring can then be removed, or be brave and support the underneath of the spring pan with a trolley jack, remove the retaining nuts and then slowly drop the trolley jack.

Tim Lynam

Yup, they are pretty much your two options Tim. I went for the jack option, but some people say that is unsafe (Bah!)

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

I agree with Malcolm, (not done it yet though), and aim to get mine through MOT and remove bumpers and therefore weight and then lower it to suite.

Hey Malcolm, how is the car going? I know the pic in your vehicle profile is not the latest from some of your posts.
Dave Squire - Notts

if you're going to buy shorter springs then I'd recommend for service and valve Kim Dear of Magic Midget - http://magicmidget.co.uk/

I made the mistake of going to him second, I originally ordered from Moss who had the uprated standard ride height springs labelled wrong but denied it, they did give me a full refund for the springs and P&P but they didn't cover my wasted time and having to buy and fit standard springs as a temporary measure
Nigel Atkins

Hi Dave,

(sorry to hijack...)

Slow and steady, was making a lot of progress and really up for it until about mid July then got distracted by various things like 'holidays' (less said about these the better...) and various problems with my wonky welding. :-)

Kind of lost interest and ended up a bit overwhelmed by it all again at the moment. Passenger sill, rear spring hanger and triangular bulkhead bit is all in. Most of the passenger side welding is done I think. Drivers side will be next (although floor is already in on that side).

Will start a new thread with some pics later if people are interested.

Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

jack sounds safer than the first time I took a spring out - undid the top of the kingpin, fold it all out (wishbone as vertical downwards as poss) then feet on the wishbone and crowbar behind the spring.

PRANG as it misses me by inches and hits the roof of the garage via the floor, much ducking and cursing.

Don't do it like that.
Rob Armstrong

Thanks for the link Nigel, after all the for's and against the lowering kits and for the sake of a few more £'s and a bit more time, decided to order the springs.
Tim Lynam

Be very careful with a jack and the coil spring

According to haynes you get the impression that this method
Is so dangerous when it comes loose it will cut both your arms off, rape your dog, kill your future unborn children, rob a bank and be involbed in a bad mall mass shooting, before being shot down by the cops

Rest assurd, im living proof of how dangerous this method really is

In my situation when it slipped from the jack it simply dribbled out with all the explosiviness of a mouse fart and left a really nasty grease spot on my arm, i barly felt its brutle impact, im guessing i was in shock ..it took like 2 minutes to wash the grease spot off...im still not the same today and that was almost 10 years ago

For god sakes... Keep some dawn dush soap close by...ot you ciuld be scared like me

Oh the horror of that day

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

for homemade safety in getting springs out.

Get two pieces of threaded stud material the gauge of the spring pan bolts.

Put on some nuts( can't think how many off top of my head) and weld two together.

These will allow you to slowly release the spring down off its tension by taking out 2 diagonally opposite spring pan bolts. replacing them with these tools. taking out the other 2 bolts and then slackening off the tools gradually.

if someone wants some photos of the tools I'll try and get some tomorrow. Really simple just can't think off top of my head the position of the nuts and how many pairs you weld together.
D Paul

My experience of this dangerous task tallies almost exactly with Prop's...

But I missed the easy to remove oilygreasy arm smudge completely

But you must do as you feel best, safe is better than having springs rob your local bank AND do horrid things to children

And upset the dog, save the doggies I say







Back in town

I have been running the washer lowering method for many years now and recent examination of the s'spension shows all to be well. But if I had a few bob I am certain I'd be running lowered springs instead
Bill1

Ordered the springs from http://magicmidget.co.uk/, they came within a couple of days and then the difficult bit fitting them, but thanks to the tips on here and a mixture of both methods along with a few cursing words when things did not go well, long bolts plus trolley jack, the springs are fitted, "the gap" reduced and appeared to aid the steering as well.

The springs used were 8.5" to replace the 10" springs on the car, this appears to have done the job and may be they will drop a bit more after a bit of use?

Picture below of the lowered midget and the before picture is on the first post.

Thanks again for everyone's help.



Tim Lynam

That looks really good, what size tire....i got the same issue but im running 145s, so im guessing thats why my front end looks like its on high water waders
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Tim,
well done, you'll find that it goes round tight corners and steers better too

I almost got round to putting mine on tonight but just couldn't be bothered as this will be 6th change, I might do it ready for the weekend or leave it until my holiday in Wales at the start of September

oh, and Tim, you might want to check the drawings in the Driver's Handbook on putting the roof up :)


Prop,
IIRC tyres went from 145/70 to present 145/80(?)
Nigel Atkins

Tim,
just thought, I know you probably don't use the car when it's dark but it's certainly out when it rains, rains a lot your way by the look of your photos . . . anyway, if the front has dropped that much you may be able to raise the aim of your headlights

suspension will soon drop back down from being jacked up and springs might settle into position but you should get much more drop unless you replace other bits or through age and use - I'm sure once you drive it for a while you'll be happy with where it is and forget about it all
Nigel Atkins

Tim,

Lowering the front alters the horizontal plane angle of the track rods, and therefore changes the toe in. You may want to now check and adjust the front wheel alignment as well.
Guy W

Nigel, 6th change, I hope thats my one and only change, but thanks for yours and other comments about lights, tracking etc.

As per the roof after fighting with the suspension for several hours I noticed the roof/side windows did not look correct, but left that easy job for another day!

And yes you are correct the tyres were changed from 145/70's to 145/80's which helped lessen the gap but only slightly.
Tim Lynam

just done mine. Was surprisingly easy, nice long bolts, only took me 2 hours :)

tip for others, poke bolts through, nut up to spring pan, then lock 2 more on the bottom. These locked ones can then be used (unscrewed) while holding the nut under the spring pan with a spanner. then can do everything underneath!

Rob Armstrong

and here'a a nice picture of them in situ :)

plus bonus DIY sumpguard.


Rob Armstrong

Good looking sump gaurd

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

it's a sign. :p
Rob Armstrong

A sign of the times...
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

This thread was discussed between 12/08/2012 and 25/08/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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