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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Lucas Starter Issue M35J Model

Hello:

Tonight, a problem with the starter on my 1972 MG midget 1275 engine prevented one of my last summer drives...not a good sign...

The starter is now in a vise on my work bench and the physical action of the return motion is very slow when jumped from my spare battery. Videos on YouTube show various Lucas starters that "jump" back when energized on & off. Mine is a "lazy" return and light finger pressure can hold it in any position - no spring resistance anywhere...

The big issue: I can't tell if a replacement drive Bendix pinion barrel will include any type of return spring. I cleaned up the shaft and main spring - but I can't tell (or see...) IF the current pinion barrel has any type of internal return spring.

The Moss USA and Victoria British catalogs seem to put more visual emphasis on older Lucas starter units while mine is labeled 25149 Type M35J which appears to have no split pin and/or lock nut on the end of the armature - just some type of split ring holding back the the main spring on the end. It appears that I need to find a way to compress that end of the unit.

Is there ANY spring inside the pinion & barrel?
Does the speed of the engine flywheel "kick" the Bendix teeth out of the ring gear?

My Haynes manual clearly states to use NO type of lubricants on any starter shaft, etc.

Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

Mike
Buffalo, NY
USA
>>>



Mike Pelone

there is a light spring in the bendix to hold it away from the flywheel,it is the engine speeding up that throws the bendix out of mesh with the flywheel. it should all move freely and yes dont use lub anywhere on it.
to remove the circlip on the end of the armateur you need a special spring compressor. The only ones I have seen recently were at a technical college where I did part time work a few years ago, however it was never used as we did work on cars that old.

Mike
M J Pearson

What Mike said.
Once the engine starts and you let go of the key the impetus from the flywheel, combined with a gentle push from the light spring disengages the pinion, then the deceleration of the starter means that the inertial energy of the pinion causes it to move along the coarse thread to the rest position clear of the ring gear.
For this to happen the shaft, coarse thread and pinion gear need to be super-clean. And I mean spotless.
I used brake cleaner spray on mine. You should have no oily residue at all there. The manual is basically correct about not using any lubricant, but if you want you can use a light spray of PTFE lube, which wasn't available when the manual was written. The only residue from it is dry PTFE, unlike oil-based lubes which will attract and hold dust.

I'd be surprised if you have to strip out the bendix gear. Scrupulous cleaning is usually enough unless there is obvious mechanical damage. My spare starter looked clean, but the pinion wouldn't fly back to the rest position properly until I had really thoroughly cleaned it.

Good luck Mike.
Greybeard

You can try standing it on the drive end in a metal coffee can or soup can with alcohol or lacquer thinner in it so the entire drive mechanism is submerged. Plunge it up & down occasionally and also manipulate the bendix by hand. This may help wash out dirt & dust that has accumulated. Spraying with brake cleaner is also helpful. The retaining ring can be removed without the fancy compressor but it takes 2 people and a lot of patience & ingenuity using an open end wrench like a fork to pull back against the spring whiile the other person manipulates the ring out of the groove. Good luck!
Stan Kowznofski


Thanks for the comments - but I removed and cleaned the Bendix drive pinion with card cleaner last year then dried the shaft and sprayed with dry lube - drove the car several times this Spring with NO problems - but had to remove the starter last PM to discover that the pinion was stuck in one position. Everything looked very clean - no obvious oil or dirt issues. Could be a heat issue that caused the dry lube to "cake" up on the shaft but no visible issues last PM.

Holding armature shaft with a small wrench - I tapped the unit and it quickly moved back into the rest position.

I could repeat the entire process again - and not order any parts since the starter removal is only a 10 minute job...

MOSS USA shows no internal spring parts inside the pinion. Anyone know what the Moss reference to the "inner sleeve" might be? Is that a reference to the return spring inside the pinion end?

I will likely take the least cost option since Fall is almost here....

Mike
Buffalo, NY



Mike Pelone

I have a NOS Bendix drive here. Been sitting on my parts shelf since 2003!!

Inside the drive unit is a cruciform washer and a spring. The spring is not a very strong one. Everything is held in place by a heavy duty washer that is cut to allow the spiral sleeve to fit into the unit.

The whole package consists of the armature C clip, drive unit, spiral cut sleeve, great heavy and strong spring and the washer that goes on the shaft and holds everything in place.

Have a starter that works but throws the drive unit too soon. Do not have the tool to change the drive unit.

Clare
Clare Ravenwood

I had a very similar problem last year with a 10+ year old starter. Cleaned the Bendix, no lubrication and all fine for a short while, then again would not engage to start the engine.

After a few attempts, gave up and bought a new starter, and no problems since then. There were no obvious signs of wear, but have not taken the Bendix apart to look inside (yet).

Have now bought a Bendix spring compressor, so need to have a deeper look at it.

Richard
Richard Wale

De photo


Flip Brühl

I have one of these Spring compressors. It was my very first eBay purchase, way back in the mists of time.

A good deal safer than mole grips.


Dave O'Neill 2

Very nice Dave. You have the tool, I have the part but an ocean between us. (lol)

Clare
Clare Ravenwood

lol Clare

Cheers
willy
William Revit

O.K. - today, I checked with Moss & Victoria British catalogs and both vendors list the starter barrel and pinion (both 9 & 10 teeth options) - but also indicate that no inner components are included - you need to order a complete NEW unit.

I can't believe that the return spring inside of the pinion & barrel is anything more than a $1.00 part - so I soaked my unit's drive side in a can of paint thinner and solvents and it's clean as a whistle now - but the Bendix drive will still not return to the neutral position. Yes, I can install the cleaned unit and hope that the centrifugal force throws the Bendix back to the rest position.

Plan B is to compress the main spring with a homemade clamp tool - then remove the circlip and examine the smaller spring inside the barrel. If I see nothing, the unit goes back into the car - IF I see metal pieces that resemble parts of a spring or just pieces of very thin wire - then I might be able to find a small spring at the hardware store.

Bottom Line?
I hate to toss out an original starter unit when I see various used starters on eBay with rebuild stickers with SKU numbers plus "Made in India" stickers in very small print.

So, if anyone has a used Bendix drive barrel that actually has a "springy" motion - let me know and I can toss a few Dead Presidents your way across The Pond...

PS: a Google search of small businesses that rebuild either starters and alternators in my area indicates that those Mom & Pop operations are rapidly going the way of the DoDo bird...

Mike
Buffalo, NY
>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Pelone

Mike. The spring inside the barrel is a small one, problem is the barrel isn't easy, if even possible to dismantle.

I have a NOS 10 point assembly here. No idea what the "biggies" want for it, got it from Evil bay in 2003. Yours for postage because I'm a nice person.

Clare
Clare Ravenwood

Clare:

Thanks for the offer...

Where in Ontario are you?
I travel to Niagara Falls & St. Catherines frequently and did find two small business operations that repair automobile electrical components and/or starters - both of which are located in St. Catherines.

My Mother always told me: "...nice people finish last..." followed by: "...the road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions..."

In any case, email me at:

ms
pelone
at
g
male dot com

and we can work out either the postage and/or any additional payment for Good Deeds...

Yes, an eyeball inspection appears to indicate that the pinion drive "barrel" is made with some type of "lip" or small curl located opposite the pinion drive end - possibly to retain whatever magic materials may reside inside..


Mike
Buffalo, NY
Mike Pelone

Email sent. Those Indian made starters are actually good quality. Fit right, work well, built good and seem to last. My supplier recommends them and I have had no issues at all and it has been a couple of years easy since I put it on.

No good deed goes unpunished. (lol)

Clare
Clare Ravenwood

I experienced a similar problem only a few months ago. The starter in question had been purchased from a reputable supplier (not Moss) in 2001 as a refurbished one. OK - so it had lasted 15 years or more, but the Bendix had stuck on more than one occasion in that time. Each time it had been taken out and cleaned.

This time after cleaning, it soon failed again, so I tested it on the bench and found that it stuck occasionally and then took positive effort to free. On closer inspection I found that the fat washer at the end of the main spring was in fact a split washer which sometimes caught on the pinion barrel, (the "lip" that Mike refers to), preventing the pinion from returning.

I suspect that the split washer rotated in use over time and so it was only when things (mis)aligned themselves in a particular way that the problem evidenced itself.

I chickened out of using a vice or Flip's method of disassembly and instead got a new starter motor from Moss and sold the old one for refurbishment.

The story doesn't quite end there but I'll leave that for the next instalment when this topic comes up again!

However, all is now working fine.
Peter Blockley


Peter:

Using the two "ears" on the starter I plan to use 2 threaded rods that connect (or pull...) on a flat steel plate drilled with a 3/4 inch hole in the center. That should exert a uniform compressing force as you turn a nut on each end of the rods. Hopefully, that should preserve all of my front teeth and at least one eye...

Yesterday, I ordered a replacement pinion "barrel" assembly from Victoria British despite what their telephone support told me was just an empty barrel. That can't be correct based on the pricing of this item from either Moss USA or Vic British.

This is turning into a research project more than anything else - I had thought about using a modern hi-torque starter but that puts me very close to $300 as a solution.

I will take a few pics of the disassembly process - I would have thought this would have been a more frequent repair across a wide spectrum of Midget owners...

PS: thanks to Clare for the generous offer regarding a free used drive unit - now I just have to wait for VB to use their snail mail to get me the Bendix drive before the leaves change colour and fall off the trees...

Mike
Buffalo, NY
>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Pelone

Have been working, Mike, but it wasn't used, it was New Old Stock.

Could still post it to you.

Clare
Clare Ravenwood


Clare:

Sit tight and I will see what actually shows up next week...I hope..

Victoria British is NOT known for speedy order processing and/or shipping

You are still the Plan "B"

ps: pray for more sunny Fall days


Mike P.

Mike Pelone

Then there is plan C. If the first two plans don't work out, I have spare starters, possibly one with a date code close to yours. Let us all know how it turns out. John
J Bubela

I might be too late with this, or you might have already have seen this or know about it but in case not –
John Twist - MG M35G Starter MGTD mgtf MGA MG Midget 1950-1979

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6CR_8efA88
Nigel Atkins


John:

Thanks for the offer - I'm going to disassemble mine and try a new Bendix drive and pinion barrel assembly from Vic British...

Nigel:

Yes, I did see that John Twist video which is what motivated me to make a flat metal stock piece that can accept two threaded rods to clamp down on the main spring while removing the round circlip piece.

However, since the Bendix drive moves rapidly away from the main spring - the comment by Mr. Twist about a metal burr holding back the movement of the pinion seems a little strange to given amount of torque and subsequent "throw out" created by the starter motor...

Bottom Line?
This issue should be resolved in another 5 days or so...

Mike
Bflo, NY
>>>>>
Mike Pelone

I like the "or so...", I get many jobs like that. :)
Nigel Atkins

O.K. - I'm back...and done.

Just wanted to show you the "home made" Main Spring compressor used to remove the circular wire clip on the end of the armature. It required enough pressure to distort the flat steel bracket I used. Total cost was less than $10 including the round threaded rod stock and all the nuts and washers, etc. This was a "use once - then toss" approach to the problem.

I ordered a 9 tooth Bendix drive end from Vic British - strangely, it appeared to be a "one piece" cast type of Bendix drive (a brown tone outer finish versus a hardened steel finish) but it definitely did not rattle when shaken - which is something I can't say about the original Bendix drive. However, the original Bendix drive did have some wear & tear on the teeth and rattled slightly - may have actually broken off in the near future - but it held up nicely for the previous 45 years.

There must have been a broken spring INSIDE the pinion barrel - the new piece returns nicely to the "rest" position.

Bottom Line?
Given the remaining Life Cycle of either me OR the car - I am sure the problem will remain solved for a few more years.

PS: thanks to Claire in Ontario Canada for the offer of the NOS part.

Mike
Buffalo, NY



Mike Pelone

Well done Mike
Greybeard

Well done, Mike and I have to say, I do like the spring compressor you made.

Hope it keeps working for a few more years.
Peter Blockley

This thread was discussed between 16/09/2017 and 30/09/2017

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