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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - making plans, what to do...(long post)

hi guys and gals, i haven't been posting much in the last year due to a new job, lots going on and not much midget news. now I am in a quandry:

My Dad has offered for my birthday (still a good 8 or 9 months away) to help me install the datsun 5 speed transmission that has been sitting in my garage for nearly 2 years. (he has the tools, the space, and experience) I would like to be there to help him do it, so i can learn how it's done (and have the experience of doing it) of course i will have to foot the bills for the rivergate kit and parts etc.

The complication is, he (and his tools/workshop) are 400 miles away. The Midget is capable of making the drive so that is not a huge concern... but I would have to arrange time of work and have a pretty well orchestrated plan. I am thinking that i take a week of vacation, durign the summer when Dad also has vacation and spend a week doing the job then have a nice long test-drive home (if we don't manage to complete the job it's not a terribly expensive plane ticket)

what i also want to figure out is how much other stuff is practical to get done in that time? "since the engine is out" kind of stuff.

it is a 1973 1275 stock that has been very well cared for over its life time. only about 62000 miles on the engine since new and it has never been opened to my knowledge. Original headgasket etc. the engine has only been out of the car for a clutch repair and clean up. I cannot afford a total rebuild (nor do i think i could do that in a week anyway). but I am considering:
1. change timing chain (recommended at 70k miles i think)
2. valves & springs?
3. new gaskets, etc?
4. new exhaust header..

any thought or suggestions?

I want to control the Shipwrights phenomenon and also make the most of my time and $$.

thanks in advance!
Chris Edwards

double time chain yes
lead free valve seats and liners (an eco head by peter burgess)
new tires

Have fun; enjoy working with your dad
Flip
Flip Brühl 948 frog 59

Chris, I'm a firm beliver in the "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It" school. The engine should have many more trouble free miles left in it and if the compression is good and the oil consumption is within norms I'd leave it alone and just do the clutch and transmission swap at this time. There are no guarantees of course, you might have engine problems the week after you get home, but unless you're ready for a good complete rebuild I'd just say leave it as is for now. I do agree with Flip about the timing chain though, pretty non invasive for the engine and a good maintenance item at that mileage. Leave the header alone if you're satisfied with the performance, you'll only risk messing up the mixture settings on the carbs and that's not something I'd deal with just before a 400 mile return trip and possibly running on a lean condition engine all that way.
Bill Young

Bill, you raise an excellent point about not introducing too many 'x' factors before a long trip! (this is why i didn't put electronic ignition on the list) In re-examining my list, the valve seats/springs etc and the exhaust header could be done with the engine in place (i.e. I wouldn't need my dad's engine hoist etc to do the job later on my own). So I think the wise thing to do it just focus on things that can only be done (or done much more easily) with the engine out of the car.

still, since it is so far in advance... it is nice to dream.

say on gents, what else would you do if you could do anything?
Chris Edwards

Chris
i quote you: "I cannot afford a total rebuild"

Then do not touch it!!!!
opening engine's up always make you want to do more work
The chain maybe a good idea (though that to can be done with the engine in place)but leave the rest of the engine alone!!!!

electronic ignition is an other point and depends on the system you want to use
if you for instance buy a 123 you get a complete new fool proof unit
You can then mark the current distr and carry it as a spare so you can always put it in with the correct timing.


i do assume you are changing the clutch, pressure plate and release bearing.
Onno Könemann

I would get the Rivergate instructions (online)
in advance and be sure you have everything before
you begin, like the metal-cutting hole saw for
the bell housing.
chuckc

What a tough call.

Bill is dead on correct, about if it aint broke dont fix it, But thats a lesson Ive yet to learn and Im 45, So Im guessing Ill never grasp the concept.

If it where me (and agian we are talking me..ol prop) ...with a 400 mile trip back, I leave the head on if its not a current issue, But id tear apart the rest of the engine and replace all the gaskets, seals, new bearing shells a long with thrust washers as well as a double roller chain and sprockets. You can always rebuild the head and add a header on down the road....

A couple of suggestions being that your looking at 5 days for this project

1st...get the rivergate slave clyinder and the speedo gear they offer, huge time saver but using there slave it takes out the problem of adjusting the Adjustable slave linkage that comes with the kit...It took me several tries to get it dialed in...not something Id risk with a 400 mile trip home

2nd get a good used flywheel off a friend or ebay and have it resurfaced before you go, that will save a day (or 3) of screwing around waiting on a machine shop

3rd....Id be really tempted... (in fact I did on my current build)is get a new pressure plate, because you will have to cut the rubbing block off, and you will have a clean freash surface for the rivergate clutch disk to grind into....granted you can use the current set one, but every time I try something like that I pay the price

4th Because I have a fear of the flywheel, Id get new Arp flywheel bolts and grade 8 bolts to hold the clutch to the fly.


Outside of that....Are you really sure you want to do this project with the old man? That just sounds like a steep decent into an endless nightmare of hell....Surly you got friends closer by that you can bum a favor off of.
Prop

I did my 5spd conversion with A-series in <2 days - drove it 130 miles home mid-pm on the 2nd day. (Wrote an article in the MGCC's magasine.) I was with an experienced old friend - sounds like you have 2 for the job too.

So should be very easy.

I used FL kit, BTW.

As everyone says ... unless your timing chain is rattling, I'd leave the engine alone. In any case, all the jobs you mention are done with the engine in place, so you can do them at home when you have the time & $$.

A
Anthony Cutler

thank everyone, i know this is way premature, but having just had my parents visit over the weekend (and take my datsun transmission back to dad's shop with them), i am excited. plus i believe in being over prepared to avoid being grounded by an unexpected complication.

1. i am definitely getting the rivergate slave cylinder and speedometer adapter. (doesn't make sense to me to try to save money here)

2. i have read through the rivergate instructions and i don't see anything about modifying the flywheel... although now Prop has me thinking about going for an alloy flywheel since i am going to be in there anyway. (Does it make a big performance difference as the sales hype seems to suggest? does it complicate the rivergate installation?)

3. fortunately i already have a gear reduction starter so i won't have to cut the clearance hole for it.

I still think the timing chain is a good idea, because i remember someone on this board told me the recommended interval for that was 70k miles. it's a relatively non-invasive fix. (although it can probably be done without pulling the engine, isn't it easier that way?)

I cannot wait to do this, and can't imagine i anyone i would rather work with than my dad, he taught me everything i know about cars, and he still has a lot to teach!
Chris Edwards

Hey CHris,

The flywheel DOes NOT have to be modified, but its a good Idea to have it resurfaced,,,, sorta like having disk brake rotors turned when you do a brake job.

I have a used fredinza flywheel I just installed on my new engine...I havent tried it yet so I cant vowage for it, But I can tell you with the clutch assembly bolted to the fredensia fly wheel, as a unit it wieghs less then the original flywheel by itself plus a few pounds lighter to boot.

I did have a clearance issue, using the rivergate kit and the fredinza aluminum flywheel, the bottom button screws of the Flywheel fouled the oil pump cover, with the 4 bolts that hold the crankshaft oil seal cover in place. The backspacing of the flywheel is deeper then the steel original so I grooved out an arch indentation into the oil pump cover with a bean bag and some dull chiesles and counter sunk the 4 holes in the oil pump cover and got 4 counter sunk bolts installed...lots of clearance now...see the photo below...I talked to someone else and they had the same issue and they fixed it the same way. But no one else here has suffered the same fate. If you use the original steel flywheel, it fits fine. none of the above issues




Prop

>>>>>and counter sunk the 4 holes in the oil pump cover and got 4 counter sunk bolts installed...<<<<

Sorry that should read....

"and counter sunk the 4 holes in the crankshaft oil seal cover plate and got 4 counter sunk bolts installed"

Prop
Prop

Hi Chris. Nice to see that you're back. I'm with the 'if ain't broke...' crowd. Focus on the task at hand - installing the 5 speed. That way, you'll have plenty of time to fix things that go wrong as they occur. Murphy's Law, y'know.

Cheers,

Glen
G. D. Phillips

I would buy the parts to do the extra jobs - i.e the timing chain, and gasket set and take them with you.

But then do the 5-speed conversion complete, including new clutch components.(2 days) Put it all back together take a day off and go for a good long test drive.

Then, if you still have the enthusiasm, do the other jobs. You may have had enough by then and prefer to spend the rest of your week going fishing with your dad or something. You could go on a fishing/ camping trip in the Midget.

The timing chain job although non-invasive, will take the better part of a day as you need to time the cam and check the valves. At 62,000 miles if the compression is good, the valves won't need replacing and the head won't need to be disturbed. But if you are keen take the head off, decoke the combustion chambers, lap in the valves with some grinding paste and fit new oil seals. The valve springs should be fine unless you are using very high revs.

You can then probably do another 62,000miles before the engine needs any more attention!

Guy
Guy Weller

If you are thinking of changing the timing chain I would do it when the engine is out.
In my experience it is not a simple job on a 1275 when in the car as the pulley etc will not clear the cross member even when jacked up fully (gearbox hits trans tunnel).

I had to release the gearbox mounts, exhaust etc and pull the engine/box forward to allow it to raise further to clear.

Not simple and nearly as much work as taking it out again - just my view - based on a 1275 Heritage shell.

R.
richard boobier

thats interesting Richard B, had exactly the same problem getting the engine out of my heritage shell that I didnt encounter when dismantling the old one. Engine would only come out with the gearbox due to the pulley hitting the crossmember
mike storey

I'd do the timing chain while the engine was out as it's easier than doing it while the engine is in. Or do nothing and do a full rebuild at a later date.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

This thread was discussed between 26/10/2009 and 27/10/2009

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