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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - master cylinder alternatives

i have done a bit of searching, and have seen mention of a couple aftermarket pedal setups. i am thinking a few buggy masters may work well, but wanted to get the opinion of those who are in the "know". i can make my own linkages and bracketry or modify the stock box to fit. any reason to stop planning it now or should these work?

http://www.appletreeauto.com/3-4-deluxe-master-cyl-pr-967.html
CAPTAIN AWESOME

i also found some similar designed ones from wilwood for a good price as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Wilwood-Alum-Master-Cylinder-3-4-260-1304-NEW-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem563b85424bQQitemZ370365776459QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
CAPTAIN AWESOME

Manny race and road cars have those kind of MC's fitted so no reason it should not work.

i am planning a twin brake MC setup with willwood MC's my self
i have the spare pedal box so when i've got some spare time the enginereing will begin.

There are company's that have simular setup developed but those are all for MK III cars
mine being an MK II and having the old pedalbox setup there is nothing realy available
And we do not wan't to hack the body now don't we!
Onno Könemann

Conversion to aftermarket master cylinders is fairly easy if you want to go to a dual cylinder arrangement for the brakes. Nothing bolts right on in place of the stock midget items as they use an offset mounting bolt arrangement that is unique. You can mount a Wilwood or Tilton universal cylinder to the side but will have to use a remote resevoir. I'm in the process of updating my brakes with a home built pedal setup using Wilwood master cylinders, a Tilton brake balance bar, and a modified pedal box. Here's a photo of what I have built so far.


Bill Young

Here's another option using Wilwood masters on a modified pedal box. I looked at this and decided to alter the design because I couldn't figure out how to seal it off from the engine compartment.



Bill Young

I have also thought about welding closed the “offset” mounting holes that Bill refers to – then relocating them as needed to attach the replacement unit. I just can’t believe that a dual line M/C unit from a GM / Ford / etc. can’t be easily adapted for the Midget. I picked up a spare pedal box from eBay last year plan to play around with this modification, possibly later this summer. I am NOT looking for a racing or Wilwood solution due to budget constraints.

Anyone know the specs for piston size & piston travel for the stock Midget master cylinder unit? Any thoughts on which USA domestic brake M/C unit might be a good fit?

I did some web research on this more than a year ago and can’t find my notes – but I vaguely remember something from a mid-1970s [ Nova or similar GM vehicle ] came pretty darn close. It would be nice to find an inexpensive Detroit solution versus the $200+ new/rebuilt/re-sleeved solutions that are now the more popular choices…

Mike P.
Buffalo, NY
Mike Pelone

Hey captian,

I absolutly love my set up, I went for the more thought out side then doing the mod work myself, but Bills set up is really nice

Id Avoid the 2 masters your looking at... simply because there not brand in my book, Id stay with wilwoods or tilton, thise or the industry gold standard, they have great tech departments to back you up and provide free tch advice thur phone and email, they have been around for ever and will be here another 100 years, there performance record exceptional and they are the best built

with a generic name...I dont know... esp. for brakes, hard to know if they will be making cake suger next week if the brakes dont sell well this week. JUSt my opinion

like I said tilton (My perferance) or wilwood is the only direction to go.

Prop
Prop

Btw... no matter what you do, this is going to be an expensive mod....even though I got the pre-made peddles assemblies it was a lot of mod work and thinking...(AND YES ONNO "cutting" LOL) but it is SO worth it, Id never own another spridget without a tilton master cly. set up...its such an exceptional design I wouldnt even bother trying to adapt a GM/Ford master, I looked into before I did the tilton mod, and you got to be a engineing god, or someone not thinking beyound 3 minutes into the future.

its a no brainer in my book.

BTW... You really want to think aboout how to seal the masters from the bulk head, cause it gets crazy hot with all that heat flowing into the car around the masters...a bread pan makes a great master cly. sheild heat box.

Prop
Prop

so, 3/4 for both brake cylinders, but what size for the clutch?

also, proportioning valves per brake cylinder? what ratio would be best suited for street driving? 75% front 25% back?

i will definitely get wilwood if possible, but i really liked the polished sand rail units i have seen. i'll see if i can dig up some sort of product reviews for the previously mentioned no name brands.
CAPTAIN AWESOME

I used 3/4" cylinders in all three positions. The original clutch cylinder is 11/16" I believe but that's not a size available in Tilton or Wilwood, so I went with the 3/4"
The problem with the sand rail cylinders you posted the link to is that with the small resevoir and the angle the cylinders are mounted at in the Spridget it doesn't leave much fluid in the resevoir, hence the move to the larger plastic resevoirs or remote units.
So far with the cylinders, balance bar, and fittings I've got around $300 or more invested. Part of that cost is a pair of Wilwood residual pressure valves I'm adding as well.
So far the best price I could find on the Wilwood cylinders was from Speedway http://www.speedwaymotors.com/
There's only a buck or two difference between most retailers, but every little bit helps.
Prop's advice about name brands is good considering the availability of rebuild kits in the future.
One aspect of the design I made was that it should bolt on without any mod to the body so it will be completely reversable with only the hard lines from the master cylinder modified.
Bill Young

3/4 for clutch
i would take it one size smaler for the brakes
something like 0.625
remember you ared doubling the fluid displaced with 2 MC's
so to not have your pedal pressure go to the roof reduce the size a bit.

get a balance bar to adjust the balance between front and rear
that gives you infinite adjustability
Onno Könemann

Onno, on a US spec car with the dual inline master cylinder you already have two pistons moving the same amount of fluid, they're just inline with each other so the pedal pressure should stay pretty much the same on our cars. I agree, if you have a Euro spec car with the single line system then reducing the size of the master cylinders would be a good idea.
Bill Young

would it be possible to level out the cylinders by leveling out the mounting of the tray? i am thinking i could cut and drop an inch or so. just not sure if the pivots would bind, which i assume to be able to do a good 90 degree action easily.
CAPTAIN AWESOME

That's a possible solution to level out the cylinders. Prop did that in essence by using the entire Tilton hanging pedal assembly and building a box to mount it on which was attached to the original foot well sheet metal. You'd need to lower the rear edge of the tray, if you raise the front end the pedals will be overly high for your feet. Whatever you do be sure that the structure is firm and well braced, after all it's the brakes and you don't want any failures there. You can see how Prop leveled the assembly in this photo by Gryf Ketcherside.


Bill Young

Hey captian,

My balance is set at 9010...the spec for a spridet is 85/15...but Ive found just running it up and down the sreet slamming on the brakes and making adjustment till I liked the balance was the best way to set the balance...thats how I got 90/10

on my set up I used angled aluminum and raised the front of the peddle assembly to level it out at the level I wanted.... Ill see If I can post some pics later of what I got

Before I ever made a cut I spent about 2-3 weeks several hours each evening just measuring and thinking about it THERE is alot going on in such a small area and persion is essential, in the end as anal as that seemed, it made for a fairly smooth installation and saved me countless hours if not months of on the fly mod work. I just cant emphise enough to measure measure and think think before you ever pick up a saw. screwing up in this area is going to set you back a ways.

just a note also, to hook up the cly, your gonna what to go stianless steeel braised lines with AN fittings from the masters to the pipe work...its expensive but but unless you bend and flare brake pipe for a living...you really dont want to go there, its a mind poping experiance to do that in such a short area. it took 3 days and 60 feet of brake line to realize I didnt have the percision skill to run brakes lines with all those curves and angles to fit in such a small area... with braided lines I had all 3 lines made and hooked up on friday afternoon.

Prop
Prop

Thanks BIll,

Ive been looking for that photo... Ill see If I can get some better photos later tonight or in the morning to post.

I just forgot I have to go to a charity BBQ tonight ,,, all you can eat chicken wings... only $15 , poor suckers I may have to make a bigger donation just so they can break even on me. LOL

Prop
Prop

thanks guys for all the help. i think i got a general idea of what i want to do now, so when the time comes i will be ready to do so. i will begin my brake parts collection soon.

prop, i will be doing my own brake lines and flaring. i know it can be tedious, but i used to work for a company that did all sorts of flares, tube bending, etc. for military vehicles and planes. some commercial stuff too. if you use welding wire, 1/4 round stock, or coat hangers as templates, it can alleviate all the mistakes that could be made when bending. the biggest kicker though is when you flare the end and realize you forgot to put on the hardware! doh!
CAPTAIN AWESOME

Is there a close-up of the pedal box in the green car above???

Thanks in advance

Pete
PeterJMoore

Hey peter,

thats my ride with the old engine, I should have some pics up soon.

Prop
Prop

Im not sure how these photos are going to turn out, I cant belive how much dust and dirt has collected in just a few weeks ... Im pretty imbarresed


Prop

about 4 in all turned out desent

on this photo you can sorta see the angle aluminum at the bottom and there is anothe angle aluminum on the other side but not seen that gives it its heith


Prop

number 3


Prop

and maybe the last

here you can see the AN fittings, and if you look to the side you can see why you need the masters that lay down on the side at an angle

But most importantly why its so importnt to "measure measure measure" then "think think think"... Luckly I saw this flaw in the early measure and think phase and was able to minimise the issue, I cant go any futher the other way as the brake peddle would have fouled the gas peddle, down below and yet I still had to grind off the side of the brake peddle for good clearance ...

If you cant see the issue I ran out of room for the with the cap on the clutch master and its fouling into the rain channel... so I carved the rain channel out with a die grinder and reinforced with angle IRON and welded it it so the cap just clears the add in and did the same thing on the bonnet rain channel... it looks good and its as strong as before... like I said that issue and 50 others become evident when you measure and think... its just like chess



Prop

and the pedals... If I can find the one good photo..btw I converted to the 1500 gas pedal... vary nice mod btw


JEZ I cant belive how nasty the car looks... missouri weather wait 5 minutes it will change... and its locked inside a shop, that what gets me

sorry 5 year old johnney, but uncle prop has to take your tedddy bear and rip its eyes off to wash his midget...LOl seriously soft teddy bears make great sponges for washing cars,,LOL

Prop... hope those help


Prop

Btw NONE of the photos turned out ... but on the bottom side of the bulk head I built an angle iron box thats bolted and welded to the bottom side of the bulkhead for reinforcement and ragidity that the top section of the tilton bolts onto and is also bolted thur the angles aluminum that levels the tilton set up

in this photo you can see the angled aluminum that has the hidden back side step Im using to level the assembly

By the way... whats all that black stuff you ask?, when its clean it looks absolutly awsome... Its rhinno linner for truck beds thus the name "Black hole midget" well that and it sucks an un-godly amount of money from any money storage system known to mankind... nothing can stop it, not even gravity.

prop


Prop

I almost forgot around the edges of the bulk head under the masters you see theres no or little rhino linner, thats because Ive got a nice piece of black rubber sheeting that goes under that area to prevent any vibrations of and to prevent a small amount of rubbing on the some of the edges of the stainless steel braided brake line probably take 30 years to rub thur, but I figured why chance it.. plus it makes a great spill gaurd if the brake fluid goes dripping

Prop...Now if I can just find that piece of rubber and a teddy bear to wash it all down

Prop
Prop

This thread was discussed between 05/05/2010 and 06/05/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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